TANGELA AND YANMA ARE BANNED

[Chieliee]

short post like usual coming in from me

I'm going to quickly address Tangela, on which the community pretty much agrees, while trying to say more shit about Yanma, on which opinions vary

I believe Tangela, while not uncounterable, should be banned because it's combination of offensive power and defensive tankyness is just a little too much.Tangela has a variety of sets, but all of them have roughly the same counters: Munchlax and Vullaby (ignoring gimmicky Goomy). Both get crippled by Knock off (and Sleep Powder in Munchlax's case), while if Stealth Rock is up, Vullaby can forget countering Tangela completely. When not running either of these mons against Tangela, you're going to have a terrible day.

Yanma has 3 main sets, one with Speed Boost and two with CompoundEyes

Yanma's sets for reference

Hypnosis+U-turn

Yanma @ Berry Juice
Ability: Compound Eyes
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SAtk / 236 Spd
Timid Nature
- Air Slash
- Hypnosis
- Bug Buzz
- U-turn

Hypnosis+Substitute

Yanma @ Berry Juice
Ability: Compound Eyes
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SAtk / 236 Spd
Timid Nature
- Air Slash
- Hypnosis
- Bug Buzz
- Substitute

Speed Boost Sweeper

Yanma @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SAtk / 236 Spd
Modest Nature
- Air Slash
- Giga Drain
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power Ground/Ice/Fire/Protect/Substitute

Yanma's Speed Boost Sweeper is pretty easy to deal with via priority, but it's CompoundEyes sets are where trouble is brewing. A 68% sleeping move, combined with blazing speed, high special attack and two strong STAB's make the Compound Eyes set very hard to beat. The U-turn variant is an amazing asset to offensive teams, because it can sleep a mon, and U-turn out the next turn, allowing for a free switch and one mon asleep. (while sleep was debuffed this gen, it's still very good) It can also function as a lategame sweeper as it's Bug Buzz hits most things pretty hard, and mons that resist that are often weak to Air Slash. The Hypnosis variant doesn't know what momentum is, but it does know the term 'free turn'. Via Hypnosis and Substitute, you can start wittling down the opponent without risking him waking up, as that will only mean your sub is broken and you can just put him to sleep again. And again, it's dual STAB's are amazing for lategame cleaning.

Despite all this, i think Yanma is not broken

Sleep Clause ensures Yanma can't pull of it's tricks forever, which means it's strongest 'move combo' can only be used once. (provided that the opponent is smart and doesn't sacrifice his sleeping mon)
Furthermore, many mons with Sleep Talk deal with Yanma really well. Examples are Munchlax, Skrelp and Magnemite. These can all switch into Yanma with relative ease. When Yanma U-turns the next turn, nothing likes getting paralyzed by body slam, burned or poisoned by Skrelp, or losing momentum via an opposing Volt Switch.

All Yanma are prone to priority. If you manage to not activate Berry Juice, something like Bunnelby or Pawniard can create 50/50 situations and defeat yanma. (while, if you are sure yanma is going to switch out, just use U-turn/Return or Knock Off!)

To sum it up, i think Yanma is quite easy to deal with after it has put something to sleep. Just make sure your team has one mon with sleep talk/insomnia/whatever and you shouldn't have a whole lot of trouble with Yanma if you play smart

 

[apt-get]

holy shit the walls of text in this thread

anyway

Tangela

yeah, so this thing is pretty broken. LO solarbeam 2HKOes anything not resisted, while Sleep Powder allows it to basically eliminate one of the only checks it has on the opposing team. Ancientpower murders anything that resists Solarbeam, and HP fire allows you to basically beat any steel-type. Nothing can switch in, nothing can take a hit, you can even run HP ice to beat eviolite gligar and goomy easier. The leaf storm set is basically "nuke a pokémon, switch out" while occasionally sleep powdering something or knock offing an annoying switch-in to nuke it later, and Regenerator basically restores any health lost. It's a shame, because other tangela sets aren't broken at all, but the few broken sets are ruining it. So yeah, I think this thing is broken. Munchlax is the only thing I would ever switch into Tangela, and when the only safe switch-in to a Pokémon is the specially bulkiest pokémon in the tier, you know there's a problem. Yes, it does deter people from playing Little Cup, and it has a nasty effect on the metagame.

Yanma

This thing can run two sets effectively: Speed Boost, and HypnoMISS. Neither are really broken.
Using Speed Boost, it can effectively clean late-game. However, its Special Attack isn't as high as Tangela's (it maxes out at 17, lower than Misdreavus). It also doesn't have a 120BP STAB move, and its best move is Bug Buzz, sitting at 90BP. It's pretty good, but it's not as broken as Solarbeam. Hypnosis can't be used with Speed Boost (except if you like missing half the time), so countering it is easier, as a lot of things can take its Bug Buzz or Air Slash. It either needs to use HP ice to beat Gligar, or HP ground to try to beat Magnemite (which can get around it with Sturdy). It's pretty good, but not broken.

Now, here comes the most "broken" set of the two: Hypnosis Compoundeyes. It can basically eliminate a pokémon with Hypnosis and 20 speed, and can then use either Substitute or U-turn, the former allowing it a free hit on something, while the latter gives it momentum for its team. However, it can only pull this "trick" once, thanks to sleep clause, and it's much weaker if it's not running Modest or Life Orb (it usually wants Berry Juice to help it tank things, at least in my opinion). It's gonna get outsped by scarfers or other Pokémon that can boost their speed, and Substitute is pretty pointless, in my opinion, unless you run Life Orb, since anything can take two unboosted Bug Buzz. It even has that nasty 4x rock weakness, even if Defog is more common, blah blah, Stealth Rock is still pretty commonly used. But overall, I don't think it's unhealthy for the meta, and it actually checks a lot of things like fighting-types, grass-types, etc... without it, a lot of these things would be even more rampant than right now. So, it's not broken, but I think the SubNosis set might deter the least hax-resistant players (lol is that even a thing?).

 

[The Quasar]

I've been very busy this past days...so we have just said more about that. I was reading some interesting topic about Tangela and Yanma, even if I think it's easier analyse a pokemon at a time. This is because Yanma and Tangela could be useful to fight one another, but if you examine both in the same time...

Well, I use Tangela+Vulpix@Heat Rock in some teams and I tell it's not so difficult to play with. Uncommon Goomy or Sassy Vullaby (or a PrankMurkrow or a good Thunder Wave) seems unique to avoid 2HKO SolarBeam. Ancent Power is a good resource, useful to hit Flying and Bug 'mons (like Yamna e.g.) and eventually boosting. HP Fire is the right medicine vs Steel-Grass Type, Sleep Power is last resort to put Tangela's checkers to sleep.
His strong is his not bad defence. With eviolite he hangs in very well, and goes on with his weird attack. I don't know very well Regenerator's set but I read about on this topic and it seems very good.

Yamna. About him, I've often engaged. I have to be whole-hearted, it's strong but not enough. Compoundeyes + Hypnosis + U-turn it's a good combo but it can run only a time, 4x weakness for SR is another problem for him. Moreover Yamna sets (Speed Boost too) are amazing weak to priority moves, it seems to easy hit Yamna with them. Since there are so much in XY LC, I think Yamna is not broken.

 

[Ray Jay]

I'm honestly not sure where I stand on Yanma yet at the moment.

The Speed Boost set is pretty objectively "overpowered" I think in the sense that it's probably the easiest late game cleaner to use via the unique combination of Speed Boost and STABs that have insane coverage (Carvanha lacks the latter), but it still has checks and even counters. I don't think these checks and counters really contribute to the discussion about this variant of Yanma however as the set is meant to be used to just faceroll the opponent later which forces them to keep their priority users really healthy as that's the only real way to revenge kill it which promotes unnecessarily conservative play. For example, many people have started building teams of defensive cores of 4 or even 5 Pokemon + Meditite and they simply rely on Meditite to carry them when Yanma is not present but they basically have to play with a team of 5 against Yanma teams to make sure Meditite is healthy late to revenge kill it. Whether that's smart metagaming or unnecessarily conservative I can't say.

The CompoundEyes set, as someone put it, makes its own luck through Hypnosis and Sub (which I think is more broken than the U-turn set because gaining momentum has never been a grounds for getting something banned) until it can buy an extra turn, which also works well with Berry Juice. This set's actually prone to being revenge killed if you sac something to sleep, but I think there is a certain "unfun" element to a 78% accurate sleep move from something that's faster / ties with every unboosted Pokemon in the tier. Personally this doesn't deter me from playing LC but it seems a lot of people think this set is "unfun" enough that they'd like to see it go, which seems to me like a respectable opinion.

I think right now one other thing is you are starting to see really niche Yanma counters develop, such as Soundproof Scarf Voltorb and such which seems to me like Yanma could be "overcentralizing", as both balance and HO really benefit from the presence of Yanma. One thing to note is that if Tangela leaves I could definitely see Yanma rising in usage due to it being the biggest threat and this becoming more of a problem, but that is all purely speculation.

 

[Electrolyte]

I've already posted my thoughts regarding Yanma, which in my opinion is more of a black-and-white case than Tangela. This post will cover my opinions on Tangela, and I promise to keep it short; there isn't much of a point to go too too into detail because most people already agree that it's broken lol. If you want to get to the bulk of what I'm trying to say, skip to my rant about teambuilding.

Anyway, like for the Sneasel suspect, it's important to keep in mind the definition of the word "broken" when considering whether or not Tangela actually is it. Obviously, broken Pokemon usually have absurdly high stats, extremely expansive movepools, or uniquely powerful abilities that differentiate themselves from standard "powerful" and tips them into broken range. There is an emphasis on the adjectives / adverbs that I used there; simply high stats, expansive movepools, and powerful abilities are NOT enough to make a Pokemon broken. Those traits shape the viability rankings of the Pokemon in our tier. When examining Pokemon, we should look for and focus on their traits that makes them exceptionally powerful, to the point where they have numerous qualities that are better than that of even the upper tier Pokemon. Of course, we also need to examine the effects of the Pokemon both battle-wise and teambuilding-wise, as those two aspects of play make up the tier and the game as a whole. Pokemon that take away skill and prediction in-battle and create repetition and lack of synergy in teambuilding are also unhealthy for the metagame and should be cast out. tldr; what is Tangela EXCEPTIONALLY good at and how does it affect the metagame?

Tangela's traits

Most of us agree on what the answer to the former is. Obviously, Tangela's high stats, good movepool, and unique abilities all come together and make it powerful. Unlike Sneasel, which had an exceptionally good move by itself in Knock Off, Tangela goes above and beyond both in stats, movepool, and ability. As quoted by blarajan and elevator music in the Smogcast, Tangela never dies- it just comes in, kills things, and never dies. Its absurdly high defense stat and special attack stat make it both bulky and powerful at the same time. This is backed by its expansive movepool, perfect coverage with Sleep Powder to shut down anything it can't beat, and most of all, its two insanely useful abilities, Chlorophyll and Regenerator. The former makes it impossible to outspeed when backed by Sun, hyping its stats to the extreme and making it better than Sneasel ever was. The second doubles and triples its longevity, letting it heal off damage simply by switching. Again, I'm not going to go much into detail here, as it's basically just regurgitating information that everybody knows, and it's not the focus of this post.

To put things in perspective, let's compare Tangela with Sneasel, a Pokemon that we also all agreed was broken about a month ago. Tangela is stronger than Sneasel; it has a higher offensive stat than Sneasel, greater Speed with Chlorophyll, stronger attacks in Leaf Storm and Solarbeam, a sleep inducing move in Sleep Powder, much greater bulk, and many fewer weaknesses. All Sneasel had was the ability to cripple opponents with an absurdly powerful Knock Off, but that was only once, and Sneasel's Knock Off will never be as powerful as Tangela's Leaf Storm / Solarbeam.

Chlorophyll Tangela's stats and movepool go way beyond what is accepted as "powerful", making it broken in that regard.


TANGELA'S EFFECT ON THE METAGAME

In-Battle

Tangela is really common, so any player that's played a few matches has definitely bumped into it at least once. From this, you'll notice that the amount of prediction and skill necessary to play Tangela, whether it's its Chlorophyll or Regenerator set, is relatively close to 0. In the Sun, absurdly powerful Solarbeam outspeeds everything and wrecks everything. It 2HKOs almost everything, and is the most spammable move I personally have ever seen. Anything that isn't downright murdered by Solarbeam can just be slammed to pieces by coverage, and if THAT doesn't work than Tangela can just put them to sleep. It's absurdly easy to play Sun Tangela, taking a lot of skill away from the game.

Regenerator Tangela is a different case, but it too has quite a lot of negative effects In-Battle. While it's not as sweeper-like as Chlorophyll Tangela, Regenerator is an extreme safety pad that is too good for an already powerful Pokemon like Tangela. Regenerator pretty much erases every single misplay that one can make with Tangela, as its bulk already makes it fairly hard to OHKO. If you accidentally switch in and take major damage, you can just switch out and heal away most of the results of the misplay. While it takes more thought and prediction to sweep with Regen Tangela, it is equally as mind numbing when it comes to playing with it in general because Regenerator just covers up for every mistake it makes.

Teambuilding

Tangela's effect on this part of the meta is what bothers me the most. Tangela is SO absurdly powerful that people will run Vulpix + Tangela JUST for the sake of using Sun Tangela. Tangela is so absurdly powerful with Sun that slapping it and Vulpix on any team will most likely benefit regardless of whether or not it actually has synergy with the team, and this makes teambuilding extremely repetitive and unsynergized, leading to a less developed metagame and playerbase. People slap on Vulpix and Tangela without second thoughts, and while this really isn't that bad of a thing when it comes to team success, it is just so terribly bad for the teambuilding aspect of the metagame that Tangela needs to be banned right now. This isn't just a little bit bad like Sneasel was; Sneasel was one Pokemon. Tangela is so powerful that the mere fact that it's good in Sun is enough to drag another whole Pokemon, Vulpix, out of la la land and into teams where otherwise it simply wouldn't belong.

In previous generations, randomly slapping a weather inducer on a team that isn't centered around the weather was an understandable move. In Generation 5, we had Snover, who was a standalone weather abuser whose sole purpose was to counter Sand, the other major weather in the tier. However, right now, doing such a thing is insane. However, now that Snover and Hippopotas are who knows where, there is absolutely 0 need to run a weather for countering purposes. There are also extremely few viable weather abusers besides Tangela right now, who isn't completely dependent on Sun anyway. The fact that Tangela, ONE POKEMON, can make itself and Vulpix a staple on teams that otherwise couldn't give less fucks about the Sun despite the fact that 1. nothing else abuses Sun in LC 2. there is no weather war to justify having a random weather inducer CLEARLY proves that TANGELA IS BROKEN. Its reliance on a Pokemon that is fairly unviable in almost every other regard is extremely damaging to teambuilding in the Little Cup metagame.



It's not just the fact that its stats and movepool are above and beyond powerful. I'm sure most of us agree on that. But don't forget that Tangela's presence severely limits the growth of our metagame and teambuilding culture as well, and therefore needs to be banned.

 

[Mylo Xyloto]

Like most people in this thread I think Tangela is broken. It has amazing bulk and excellent special attack. Coupled with good coverage, it isnt hard to see its broken. With Chlorophyll and sun support, Tangela can easily destroy teams that dont have a Goomy or Vullaby. Between Solar Beam, Ancient Power and Hidden Power Tangela can plough through the tier. Then theres Sleep Powder, which shuts down a check/counter. Tangela doesnt even have to resort to sun to be overpowering. Its Regenerator sets also prove to never die, while still hitting like a truck.

When looking at checks and counters, Goomy stands out as one of, if not the best check/counter out there. But having to resort to niche mons like these are unhealthy for the meta imo. Other special defensive walls like Munchlax and Lickitung fall to either LO Solar Beam or Sleep Powder. Non chlorophyll sets have more checks though since it obviously doesnt hit that hard. It also doesnt have the blazing speed the Chlorophyll sets have. Thus making faster pokemon that hit Tangela on the weaker special defensive side, excellent checks.

Yanma on the other hand, has more issues that prevent it from being out right broken. Firstly the annoying x4 Stealth Rock weakness. This forces Yanma to not switch as freely as one posible wants. Even with the addition of Defog, it still isnt easy for hazards to be removed. Yes Hypnosis is annoying af, but it can only sleep one pokemon and is vaunerable there after. Being easily revenged by a Scarfer such as Chinchou. Having to resort to its STABs as only moves alongside Hypnosis(and Sub if thats your cup of tea) is really not that great as its resised by mons like Magnemite. The change mechanics also influences Yanma. Speed Boost Yanma, however, cant be revenge killed and is one of the best late game cleaners. With a Life Orb and Modest nature, it dishes out huge amounts of damage. It is easily stopped by specially defensive walls though, most notably Munchlax and Porygon.

Anyway, I'm pro Tangela ban and abstain on Yanma. Sorry if this seems messy btw n_n

 

[Heysup]

Few things:

<snip>

A 68% sleeping move, combined with blazing speed, high special attack and two strong STAB's make the Compound Eyes set very hard to beat. The U-turn variant is an amazing asset to offensive teams, because it can sleep a mon, and U-turn out the next turn, allowing for a free switch and one mon asleep. (while sleep was debuffed this gen, it's still very good) It can also function as a lategame sweeper as it's Bug Buzz hits most things pretty hard, and mons that resist that are often weak to Air Slash. The Hypnosis variant doesn't know what momentum is, but it does know the term 'free turn'. Via Hypnosis and Substitute, you can start wittling down the opponent without risking him waking up, as that will only mean your sub is broken and you can just put him to sleep again. And again, it's dual STAB's are amazing for lategame cleaning.

Despite all this, i think Yanma is not broken

Sleep Clause ensures Yanma can't pull of it's tricks forever, which means it's strongest 'move combo' can only be used once. (provided that the opponent is smart and doesn't sacrifice his sleeping mon)
Furthermore, many mons with Sleep Talk deal with Yanma really well. Examples are Munchlax, Skrelp and Magnemite. These can all switch into Yanma with relative ease. When Yanma U-turns the next turn, nothing likes getting paralyzed by body slam, burned or poisoned by Skrelp, or losing momentum via an opposing Volt Switch.

All Yanma are prone to priority. If you manage to not activate Berry Juice, something like Bunnelby or Pawniard can create 50/50 situations and defeat yanma. (while, if you are sure yanma is going to switch out, just use U-turn/Return or Knock Off!)

To sum it up, i think Yanma is quite easy to deal with after it has put something to sleep. Just make sure your team has one mon with sleep talk/insomnia/whatever and you shouldn't have a whole lot of trouble with Yanma if you play smart

I'm not sure if its a typo but it kind of influences your reasoning......Hypnosis is 78% not 68%, which doesn't seem like a lot, but it's a lot. The reasoning "play smart" is directly influenced by this statement because you can't just "play smart" and let it sleep a Pokemon, because chances are it WILL get the free Substitute up no matter what you do even if you play it perfectly. If its sleep % was lower, most of the time people would actually be able to "play smart" and just keep attacking through Hypnosis because the chances of it hitting and lasting more than 1 turn is relatively small.

Outplaying your opponent immensely does not mean something doesn't cause a "whole lot of trouble".

I'm honestly not sure where I stand on Yanma yet at the moment.

The Speed Boost set is pretty objectively "overpowered" I think in the sense that it's probably the easiest late game cleaner to use via the unique combination of Speed Boost and STABs that have insane coverage (Carvanha lacks the latter), but it still has checks and even counters. I don't think these checks and counters really contribute to the discussion about this variant of Yanma however as the set is meant to be used to just faceroll the opponent later which forces them to keep their priority users really healthy as that's the only real way to revenge kill it which promotes unnecessarily conservative play. For example, many people have started building teams of defensive cores of 4 or even 5 Pokemon + Meditite and they simply rely on Meditite to carry them when Yanma is not present but they basically have to play with a team of 5 against Yanma teams to make sure Meditite is healthy late to revenge kill it. Whether that's smart metagaming or unnecessarily conservative I can't say.

It's not completely related to the topic, but the reason Yanma (without even considering compoundeyes) is in question and Carvanha isn't is not because of lack of coverage (it actually has really good coverage). It is simply a matter of Tangela being in the game.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Tangela is pretty obviously broken for reasons that other people have already said. I find the the Chlorophyll + Growth set with Eviolite to be absolutely ridiculous when used with Giga Drain, as it can continue sweeping even after sun runs out and it's at +2. Eviolite makes it ridiculously bulky, and Giga Drain just keeps on healing itself every time it knocks something out. I find this simply more efficient than hoping to put something to sleep, when you can pretty much just outright kill everything with this set. If you want the quick and dirty set, LO SolarBeam is of course also an option, but i personally dislike its reliance on sun, and have thus normally shied away from using it. Then we have the offensive Regenerator sets, either with Life Orb or Eviolite. Both of these are ridiculous to handle, require multiple checks on every team, and when you're basically limiting yourself by not running Tangela, you know there's a problem. There are pretty much no counters to it, theres is quite literally no downside to having Tangela on your team. This is a Pokemon that was just not meant to be in Little Cup.

Yanma I'm not so sure about. Tangela is just in an entirely different league. Yanma has that terrible Stealth Rock weakness that can leave it prone to many attacks, and with the Sleep nerf this gen, I generally don't mind so much if something gets put to sleep. I generally run a cleric though, so mabye that's just me. It's certainly a pretty vicious Pokemon, but not more so than stuff like Bunnelby, Pawniard, Meditite etc. I mean, I personally wouldn't mind if Yanma were to go, it's one less really threatening Pokemon to deal with, but so far I've found it to be manageable enough.

 

[Ray Jay]

Heysup yeah it was a typo, I meant 78%. The point still stands I think that Carvanhas STABs aren't nearly as strong as Yanma's (Water Dark has good neutral coverage I agree but Yanma's SE hits are really notable, Tangela like you said but also the ubiquitous Fighting-types and SE hits on Dark-types as well).

 

[ryan]

Can we all be real here? Yanma's 4x Stealth Rock weakness is honestly irrelevant in 90+% of its matches because it's so easy to remove hazards, and a lot of teams don't even run Stealth Rock because of it. How many times have your Yanma actually taken Stealth Rock damage? Out of all my battles and all my teams that have Yanma (which is most of them), I can only remember one time when Yanma took Stealth Rock damage, and it didn't keep me from winning the game. All you have to do to get rid of Stealth Rock is 1. run Gligar or 2. run a Rapid Spin user because Ghosts are not that common or 3. in a bad situation, you can just set your own Stealth Rock and wait for your opponent to Defog it away. People see 4x Stealth Rock weakness and automatically assume that's a detriment, but when is running two of the top Pokemon on the same team (Yanma and Gligar) ever truly a detriment in LC?

The sleep nerf is an understandable point, but it's not enough to keep Yanma from being broken. The set that I personally think is the best, U-turn/Hypnosis, doesn't care about the sleep nerf because it can debilitate an opposing Pokemon and then get momentum for your team or just outright kill something. It's great that the sleep counter doesn't reset anymore, but think about it in an actual battle and not based on papermon:

Scenario 1: Yanma comes in against anything that isn't holding a Choice Scarf that can't OHKO it in case it misses (which is a ton of stuff). The opposing Pokemon stays in and takes the Hypnosis. One sleep turn ends. The Yanma user either proceeds to 2HKO this Pokemon or U-turns out into something that can OHKO it. Then the opponent, not wanting to sacrifice his sleeping Pokemon in order to keep Sleep Clause intact, decides to switch out. That Pokemon will more than likely remain sleeping for the remainder of the battle because a decent player using an offensive team won't give it a free turn.

Scenario 2: Yanma comes in against anything that isn't holding a Choice Scarf that can't OHKO it. The opponent switches into something else to eat a Hypnosis. The Yanma user either proceeds to 2HKO this Pokemon or U-turns out into something that can OHKO it. Then the opponent, not wanting to sacrifice his sleeping Pokemon in order to keep Sleep Clause intact, decides to switch out. That Pokemon will more than likely remain sleeping for the remainder of the battle because a decent player using an offensive team won't give it a free turn.

Notice how defenseless you are in a practical application against Compound Eyes Yanma? Yes, you will miss on occasion, and that's ok because you're only going to come in against something that can OHKO you in desperate situations. More often than not, you will lose a lot of momentum as well as a Pokemon. I think the fact that a lot of people haven't played against this set very much is making them sit on the fence about this issue, which is understandable because a lot of ladderers like Speed Boost for obvious reasons. Compound Eyes Yanma in the hands of a decent or better player is fantastic, and in my humble opinion, too good for Little Cup. Other minor arguments that I'll touch on really quickly:

Furthermore, many mons with Sleep Talk deal with Yanma really well. Examples are Munchlax, Skrelp and Magnemite.

Sleep Talk Munchlax is almost always inferior to Recycle Berry Juice. Sleep Talk Magnemite is not a thing. Sleep Talk Skrelp is rare.

All Yanma are prone to priority.

228 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Bunnelby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 13-17 (56.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (not that this calc is very relevant because you can put it to sleep and Sub variants have a 93% chance to 2HKO)
196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO (ik it's not a super relevant Pokemon, but it's a strong priority user)
196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 51.2% chance to 2HKO (if they Fake Out + Bullet Punch while Berry Juice is still intact, they lose)

Yanma isn't Carvanha. It's not that frail, and with Berry Juice, it's not vulnerable to priority. In fact, the only priority it is weak to, Ice Shard, is seen no where in Little Cup except from Phanpy which I forgot was even a Pokemon until prem mentioned it in the smogcast. That, and:

0 Atk Phanpy Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Phanpy Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Phanpy Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Sorry if I'm a little abrasive (I don't feel like I am, but just in case!). I don't mean to be. Yanma is just so obviously broken to me based on my experiences playing with it and against it.

EDIT: for anyone wanting to see a specific example of the scenarios I showed with Compund Eyes Yanma, refer to: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-72956979

 

[An-94]

Idk about that people not being smart enough to run sr for yanma is at fault for their own mistake if we didnt run sr in nu or ou would charizard and volcorona be uber????????????????? Although not saying u should use sr just for yanma but ofc it does gelp soften other things in the metgame

 

[TUO]

Alright it's my turn to do a great wall of text! I'll just quickly go over Tangela, since not much needs to be said about how broken it is. Also, many things about Tangela have been stressed by others.


Tangela is one of those Pokemon that can just win games without really giving a shit. Tangela has incredible abilities in Chlorophyll and Regenerator, giving it many different sets. When you combine this with that insane power and bulk Tangela has, Tangela is just so much better than every other Pokemon right now. Honestly that's what I think makes Tangela broken; it is pretty much the best at everything, making it good on 90% of teams. Tangela is also so strong that it can make entire styles viable on its own, that being Vulpix+Tangela. It not only makes a style viable, but it's overpowering nature makes it that it can make an entire style from inviable to downright broken.


Tangela also has a huge impact ingame. Basically, when a Tangela comes out in Sun, you are pretty much screwed. Tangela forces these situations where you’d pretty much always come out on top. Tangela’s 3-4 unique sets strikes uncertainty into the opponent and will put you into a constantly winning situation.


I’ll talk a bit more about Yanma tomorrow or something.

 

[An-94]

These ban tangela thesis's are horrible chlorophyll sets are probably the MOST deadly i will admit that and thats only because the doubling of his speed, you have to make your team to be able to take out threats, and the regular bulky regen sets while still being bulky of course vulpix vullaby and meditite come to mind as far as smacking regen tangelas if you think u cant bring in those correct checks fast enough try using red card or switch in and take the knock off, and i dont think sleep powder works on overcoat so yea... People are just smarter than ever

 

[tcr]

These ban tangela thesis's are horrible chlorophyll sets are probably the MOST deadly i will admit that and thats only because the doubling of his speed, you have to make your team to be able to take out threats, and the regular bulky regen sets while still being bulky of course vulpix vullaby and meditite come to mind as far as smacking regen tangelas if you think u cant bring in those correct checks fast enough try using red card or switch in and take the knock off, and i dont think sleep powder works on overcoat so yea... People are just smarter than ever

Other than the fact tangela can repeatedly come in and cripple your mons, either passively it spamming leaf storm. Chloro is dangerous because everything is 2hkoed in sun. Everything.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Idk about that people not being smart enough to run sr for yanma is at fault for their own mistake if we didnt run sr in nu or ou would charizard and volcorona be uber????????????????? Although not saying u should use sr just for yanma but ofc it does gelp soften other things in the metgame

Yanma's 4x weakness to Stealth Rock is a very crippling disadvantage indeed, and it would be a problem for Yanma if Defog weren't so easy to use via bulky mons such as Gligar and Vullaby. The fact that it's so easy to remove this hazard because of Defog's buff this generation makes setting it up often a waste. Therefore, Stealth Rock cannot be passed off as a way to limit Yanma and I feel like this has already been said about 5 times in this thread so far; I know for sure I mentioned it in my post. Setting Stealth Rock doesn't do any good because of how effortlessly it can be removed.

These ban tangela thesis's are horrible chlorophyll sets are probably the MOST deadly i will admit that and thats only because the doubling of his speed, you have to make your team to be able to take out threats, and the regular bulky regen sets while still being bulky of course vulpix vullaby and meditite come to mind as far as smacking regen tangelas if you think u cant bring in those correct checks fast enough try using red card or switch in and take the knock off, and i dont think sleep powder works on overcoat so yea... People are just smarter than ever

I'm curious to know what you use to deal with Life Orb Regenerator Tangela since you feel the need to say other people's expressions regarding its brokenness are "horrible". For the record, Vullaby is 2HKOed by Ancient Power and so is Vulpix, and that's without Stealth Rock. Meditite is completely destroyed by one Leaf Storm and cannot considerably damage anything without Life Orb, and certainly not Tangela thanks to its gargantuan Defense and Regenerator.


196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Ancient Power vs. 236 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Ancient Power vs. 212 HP / 236 SpD Vulpix: 16-21 (69.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 196 HP / 236 SpD Meditite: 23-29 (104.5 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


On a side note: For the sake of this thread, let's please try to be more constructive with our posts.

 

[An-94]

when I come across a LO tangela i mostly just switch to vulpix to take the grass attack or the knock off then go for the fire blast or over heat sometimes i run one or the other depending on my held item (LO/Specs) and I run sticky web in LC too so speed isnt really a problem either and most of the time I kill it with meditites F/O Ice punch

 

[tcr]

when I come across a LO tangela i mostly just switch to vulpix to take the grass attack or the knock off then go for the fire blast or over heat sometimes i run one or the other depending on my held item (LO/Specs) and I run sticky web in LC too so speed isnt really a problem either and most of the time I kill it with meditites F/O Ice punch

You use specs vulpix?

LO Tangela has a high chance to 2hko and outspeeds vulpix, with solarbeam. Thats running max bulk on vulpix. It outspeeds and ohkoes meditite with Solarbeam.

LO regenerator sets 2hko max bulk vulpix with ancientpower. They ohko meditite with Leaf Storm.

Eviolite sets beat Meditite on one one unless a crit or a freeze. Giga drain 2hkoes while ice punch 3hkoes IIRC. I fail to see how you kill it with ice punch unless you revenge it.

Sticky web is fairly gimmicky, and a good player will get rid of it. Early in the natch when spinarak is gone or Surskit is gone.

Even if you predict wrong with tangela, it doesnt even matter. Theres absolutely no cost to switching tang out because of regenerator, unless you run full hazards. And if you do that, LOL. With regenerator it can simply switch into common teammates like Slowpoke to take a Fire Blast or Ice beam or Ice punch or something. The point of Regenerator is that it pretty much gives you free kills, and if you predict wrong, you try again later. Pokemon like murkrow cant do that because it cant repeatedly switch i and out because of frailty. Even without running bulk it is excellently bulky, naturally!!

 

[An-94]

everyone runs defog? Just like everyone runs sr for yanma? lol ya right people barely even have spin blockers which makes tentacool even a viable spinner in LC its not my fault people don't run what they need to

 

[kingmidas]

Look, you don't need to make it like it's people's faults for yanma being possibly broken. A mons brokenness is not dictated by how people play, but how electro said it, by its stats, movepool, how it restricts teambuilding. You aren't saying anything aside from saying people don't know what they are doing. And that justifies nothing of what you said.

 

[An-94]

I don't see how yanma restricts team building when all you need is SR and priority to take it out, tangela however is a diff story I'm 100% convinced that shit is broken

 

[kingmidas]

I don't see how yanma restricts team building when all you need is SR and priority to take it out, tangela however is a diff story I'm 100% convinced that shit is broken

I don't mean to sound rude, but do you read before you post? People have shown calcs (which is why I didn't) and those have shown that yanma can take priority. and you said it yourself everyone runs defog, so keeping SR up is a task. and berry juice yanma, can switch into SR 1-2 times and then have it activate restoring its health, which makes even SR unreliable.

 

[Aladyyn]

Treecko already explained how the SR weakness doesn't matter at all. And yes, priority. What priority are we really talking about? Because Yanma 4x resist fighting, therefore Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave are literally useless (enjoy dealing your 10%). Sucker Punch gets bypassed by Hypnosis, if one of your mons isn't asleep yet and Pawniard doesn't ohko anyway, so you just get BJ activated and kill it/U-Turn out. So no, priority and SR are definitely not enough and Yanma definitely restricts teambuilding, that's true for almost every top-tier threat.

 

[reiku]

Tangela is super broken and i think it should be banned, Yanma isnt so good, is good ok but it cant sweep an entire team it has so many checks and counters like lax, archen, skrelp

 

[chimp]

yanma is p lame and treeko was wrong about the hazard thing, just like you say not everyone runs SR not everyone runs Defog people use gligar offensively more than the defog set so eh yanma shouldnt be going anywhere and without tang gligar will sweep teams then next month its ban gligar hes too strong onoes ban mienfoo he has no check go gligar is gone! when will it stop :(

Tangela isn't the only check to Gligar, just as Gligar isn't the only check to Mienfoo. The point is that Tangela has no checks. Not even the Pokemon who are supposed to check it can do so reliably, as seen in the calcs shown in posts above. If someone is running Yanma, the chance of them also running defog or rapid spin increases. Just as it does if you were to run Charizard or Volcarona or Yanmega or any other rock-weak pokemon. If the player is smart, he won't even send in Yanma on the field while Rocks are up. Then he defogs. Then he sends in Yanma and puts your hazard setter to sleep. Now you have no check.

 

[Kavatika]

yanma is p lame and treeko was wrong about the hazard thing, just like you say not everyone runs SR not everyone runs Defog people use gligar offensively more than the defog set so eh yanma shouldnt be going anywhere and without tang gligar will sweep teams then next month its ban gligar hes too strong onoes ban mienfoo he has no check go gligar is gone! when will it stop :(

Briyella brought this up before in the thread, and you should not be discussing whether banning one thing will lead to a chain of banning, and Gligar is completely off-topic in this thread.

Given your posts in this thread, it's apparent that you haven't read anything beyond what posts you've talked about and what posts reply to you. I would highly recommend you go back and read the entire thread and then rethink your stances on Yanma and Tangela, and perhaps make an intelligent post.

I'll edit this later with my own thoughts, etc.


EDIT: No I'm not because I'm lazy today and I wanna play LBW D: