I've waited patiently for this, as well as many others, I'm sure. I believe that Tangela and Yanma are both broken and unhealthy for XY Little Cup, and as there are two Pokemon being suspected in this thread, each with their own qualities that affect battling and teambuilding in their own way, I will be covering them separately and picking them apart in great detail.
Before I get into why I believe these two are broken, I'd like to express that I've overheard more than a few users in the LC community saying that this suspecting of whether Tangela and Yanma are broken or not is a direct aftereffect of Sneasel being banned from the tier, and that this will apparently continue in a chain as newer threats rise to power. While I am not for suppressing the thoughts of any user who would like to express themselves here,
I strongly encourage that we stay on topic and keep Tangela and Yanma the main focus. Sneasel is no longer a factor at all and the threats these two Pokemon pose individually are completely different stories. More bluntly put, listing Sneasel's ban as a reason why Tangela and Yanma are now under suspecting presents a poor argument that offers nothing relevant to the status quo no matter how it is phrased. Moving on.
Tangela
Type: Grass
Abilities: Chlorophyll, Leaf Guard, Regenerator
Base stats: 65 HP / 55 Atk / 115 Def / 100 SpA / 40 SpD / 60 Spe
Tangela is an extraordinarily potent force in XY Little Cup. It has outstanding physical bulk, insane special offense, and some cool moves in its arsenal that complement these qualities very well. A buff it got this generation along with the rest of the Grass-types is that it is completely immune to Spore and other powder-based moves, which is awesome and prevents Grass vs Grass status fests. Having 2 base stats at 100 or above in Little Cup is practically unheard of and this fact alone presents Tangela as a formidable threat even at just a glance. Sub-par special bulk and middling Speed are a bit of a letdown for Tangela, but these apparent flaws are not enough to balance it out. Let's take a closer look at the many ways Tangela can overwhelm its enemies.
Chlorophyll Tangela
Tangela @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 196 SAtk / 116 SDef / 196 Spd
Modest Nature
- Solar Beam / Giga Drain
- Ancient Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Powder
Tangela itself isn't nearly as broken as Tangela used in tandem with Sun. Vulpix was unbanned along with Tangela, which resulted in the return of the auto-sunlight needed to patch up Tangela's mediocre Speed. Reaching a Special Attack stat of 20, Tangela can already dish out extreme pain with its STAB Solar Beam and coverage, and with a Life Orb equipped, it basically OHKOs or 2HKOs almost everything in the game without requiring hazard damage. The Rock-type coverage provided by Ancient Power hits 4 of the 5 types that Grass is weak to (Bug, Fire, Flying, Ice) for super effective damage, making Tangela incredibly hard to wall. Even though Hidden Power suffered a base power drop to 60 this generation, the fact that Chlorophyll Tangela operates under Sun mitigates this by having its power increased due to it being Fire-type, and this burns holes in the Steel-types that wall both Solar Beam and Ancient Power. With this incredible offensive power and coverage, almost nothing can switch in to check (you can pretty much forget countering it) Tangela without being obliterated, and just in case you think you have found a way around it, it has Sleep Powder to put your would-be check out of commission. It simply cannot be stopped; even Speed Boost Yanma and Carvanha would have to risk successfully using Protect twice in a row to have any chance of outspeeding it in Sun and getting a move off. The EV spread here can be shifted around to suit the player if needed and Giga Drain can be used over Solar Beam for more survivability, though the drop in power is very significant; either way, the fact still remains that Tangela is in a league of its own and wields the power of a wrathful god under sunlight. One might say that Tangela's power in Sun is "nerfed" now that Drought is limited to 5 turns (8 turns with Heat Rock), but let's be honest: 5 turns is all Tangela needs to wreak enough havoc to call it good game. Below are some calculations that reflect just how overpowered Tangela is:
Eviolite Spritzee with the "standard" EV spread designed to handle Bullet Punch Meditite cannot switch in at full health without dying:
196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Solar Beam vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 17-21 (62.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Eviolite Lickitung with maximum possible special bulk cannot switch in at full health without dying:
196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Solar Beam vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 13-17 (46.4 - 60.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
Eviolite Misdreavus with maximum possible special bulk cannot switch in at full health without dying:
196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Solar Beam vs. 196 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 13-17 (52 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
We can list calculations of special walls trying to put up with this thing all day. It's insane. And if you happen to bring in a Grass resist to try to get in safely, Ancient Power slams the Bug-, Fire-, and Flying-types for super effective damage, and HP Fire gets a hard hit on the Grass- and Steel-types that also resist Grass. For anything you bring in that Tangela can't 2HKO or hit hard super effectively, it's going to sleep. It can be argued that Berry Juice can allow for some bulky mons to come in, take a hit, and gain all their health back, while Eviolite doesn't provide that kind of security. While this is true, it needs to be stressed that Berry Juice is a single-use item and a well-played Tangela remains a consistent threat well after your Berry Juice is consumed, not to mention its Speed in Sun is enough to outspeed even the vast majority of Scarfers... But Tangela doesn't even need Sun to be broken, which brings me to my next point.
Leaf Storm Regenerator Tangela
Tangela @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 196 SAtk / 196 Spd / 116 SDef
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Ancient Power
- Knock Off
- Sleep Powder
This set functions similarly to the Chlorophyll set; the sacrifice is less Speed, but the trade-off is even more power and survivability, without relying on Sun. Leaf Storm Regenerator Tangela is the epitome of hardcore hit-and-run in XY Little Cup. You fire off a powerful STAB Leaf Storm, and switch out unless you want to remove an item with Knock Off or put something to sleep with Sleep Powder. Switching out with this set accomplishes three things. It removes the Special Attack drop brought on by using Leaf Storm, it gets Tangela away from harm (especially if the opponent happened to bring in a faster potential check), and it restores health that may have been lost on the turn Leaf Storm was used or whenever you got hit. Tangela without Sun tends to force a lot of switches, as it's deemed less threatening and easier to check, so Knock Off is there to punish incoming Pokemon. It basically comes in, kills everything, switches out to lose the stat drops and regain health, and then comes back in to continue killing everything, and the cycle repeats in that fashion. Tangela's new-found immunity to Spore and Stun Spore means that Foongus can't do much to it despite the type advantage it has. It's a regenerating torture machine that is incredibly hard to deal with because it just does not die. Calculations shouldn't be necessary to provide for this set since Leaf Storm does even more damage than Solar Beam and the same offensive spread and item were used in both sets.
The only thing I have found that checks the hell out of Tangela (as well as Vulpix and to an extent Yanma) and completely turns it the other way in annoyance is this:
Goomy @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sap Sipper
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SAtk / 240 SDef
Calm Nature
- Dragon Breath
- Sludge Bomb
- Rain Dance
- Hidden Power [Rock]
This is
THE Tangela answer. It laughs at Tangela's Grass STAB moves and Sleep Powder (it doesn't need the Attack boost from Sap Sipper; the Grass immunity is more than enough), resists HP Fire, tanks Ancient Power, and gets rid of Sun by way of Rain Dance. It also often paralyzes Pokemon on the switch-in with Dragon Breath as Tangela gets mad and escapes. While this is a pretty cool check, it doesn't last forever, and the ONLY thing it does in the relevant metagame is mess with Tangela. It literally cannot do anything else effectively, and
players shouldn't have to resort to using obscure Pokemon like this in order to get around a threat. You know it's a problem when you have to use a whole teamslot JUST to deal with one threat and has no other purpose at all. Other mons that do an okay job (not as good as this thing but still) at walling Tangela are maximum Special Defense Vullaby and RestTalk Munchlax, but they're shaky checks at best and must be at full health with no Stealth Rock down to even have a chance of coming out on top.
Additional Comments
It might be argued that there are many ways to stop Chlorophyll Tangela since Sun is not the only auto-weather in XY Little Cup. This is true, but nothing on typical Sand teams can deal with Tangela as they are at an obvious type disadvantage; the best chance they have is getting Lileep to try and tank Tangela's attacks while being immune to Sleep Powder, and try to stall Tangela out with Recover and Toxic. Hail is totally annihilated by Sun for obvious reasons, and the best chance Hail players have is getting a Blizzard off on Tangela with Scarf Snover, an obvious play that can be easily switched out of and will often give Vulpix a free kill or otherwise free move... Even if you predict correctly and go for HP Rock, that isn't enough to come close to killing Vulpix, and the whole situation is very risky. Unfortunately, there are no auto-Rain inducers in the tier. There are Prankster carriers (Cottonee, Murkrow, and Riolu) that get Rain Dance, but this is often impractical and honestly very gimmicky, especially considering that Vulpix can just bring Sun back effortlessly later on without using up a turn. For laughs, Tangela also has access to Growth, which takes Tangela's offensive capabilities to rape tier if you're that kind of asshole and you're willing to use up a moveslot and a Sun turn to get the +2 boost to both offenses (some of you might think this is a dumb idea but I've seen it done and I saw the opponent become completely helpless even though he/she had resists; the player never even got to attack again). And if any player is lucky enough to get the Ancient Power boost while using Tangela, it's pretty much over, and people who play XY Little Cup know this happens a good deal more often than 10% implies.
1) Is Tangela broken?
Absolutely. I find that Tangela is very unhealthy for the metagame due to its overwhelming offensive power, its doubled Speed in Sun in the case of the Chlorophyll set, and its god-like survivability in the case of its Leaf Storm Regenerator set. The fact that so little can stand a chance against it inherently restricts teambuilding quite a lot, which in turn hurts the variety of Little Cup by forcing players to use the same team members over and over to have any chance of winning if they are to encounter Tangela.
2) Is Tangela making Little Cup not fun?
A subjective question to which I have a subjective but reasonable response. I understand that there are players in this community who have fun using Tangela because it's so strong and it dismantles everything, but for the people who are actually creative and like the challenge of having to think about situations in battle, overpowered mons like this are not a good thing for the metagame. I don't mean any offense by this, but you are a bad player if you absolutely have to take advantage of overpowered shit in a tier in order to have fun. I feel that it contributes to the problem rather than actually giving other players and other Pokemon a chance. In my humble opinion, winning a match with a Tangela sweep has no real sense of accomplishment because anyone can do that and it requires little effort. Like, whoop-de-doo, you swept with Tangela. I never saw THAT coming.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
If they're not losing to Tangela, they have it on like every team. I feel this creates a scenario where you are either limited by the metagame's unhealthiness (caused by Tangela) or you are contributing to it being unhealthy by abusing it. I know that a lot of people also feel like this, they just put it into simpler words when describing it. It's been pissing people off for a while now, and while I can't concretely state that Tangela is deterring individuals from playing Little Cup, it has probably crossed their minds more than once for the reasons I've touched on; I wouldn't put it past them.
Yanma
Type: Bug / Flying
Abilities: Speed Boost, Compound Eyes, Frisk
Base stats: 65 HP / 65 Atk / 45 Def / 75 SpA / 45 SpD / 95 Spe
Yanma is a very fast threat with STABs that hit a large part of the relevant metagame for hard super effective damage. A new buff Yanma got this generation is that its STAB Bug Buzz attack ignores Substitutes, making it a lot easier to rack up Speed with its Speed Boost ability and kill off other setup Pokemon even if they have a Substitute up. Even if Yanma opts to run an ability other than Speed Boost, it still reaches a comfortable 20 Speed stat, a level surpassed by nothing in the tier under usual conditions, with only a few mons like Elekid, Diglett, and Voltorb tying with it. Yanma does have its drawbacks, as Bug/Flying is not the best typing in the world defensively, it has pretty pitiful bulk, and a painful 4x weakness to Stealth Rock that strips away half of its health every time it enters battle. However, these shortcomings are not enough to limit Yanma's offensive potency and utility to the point that it isn't a looming problem for the rest of the tier.
Speed Boost Yanma
Yanma @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 36 HP / 236 SAtk / 236 Spd
Modest Nature
- Air Slash
- Bug Buzz
- Giga Drain / Protect
- Substitute / Protect / Hidden Power [Ground] / Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Ice]
With hazard support and/or something to keep Stealth Rock off its team's side of the battlefield, Yanma is truly a terror to face. Bug/Flying STABs have surprisingly awesome coverage in XY Little Cup, with a hefty 30% flinch chance affixed to STAB Air Slash to boot, and the high Speed to take advantage of it. With this set, Yanma becomes more impossible to outspeed with every turn; just about everything in the tier can give up trying after it gets one Speed Boost. In addition to posing a deadly threat to other speedy offensively based mons such as Carvanha, it is also capable of mowing down important walls in the tier like Slowpoke and Foongus, as well as breaking down bulky offense Pokemon such as Mienfoo and Croagunk. Giga Drain is used as coverage as well as to finish off weakened mons while restoring health lost to Life Orb recoil. The only priority attacks that Yanma is weak to are Fletchling's Gale Wings Acrobatics and Ice Shard, which no relevant Pokemon in the game has access to bar Shellder, so attempts to revenge a decently healthy Yanma are easy to see coming and can be responded to with appropriate switches. If it is weakened enough to be comfortably taken down by a different priority move, the Life Orb recoil that brought Yanma down to that range is a likely indicator that it has ravaged the opponent's team already.
To see exactly what Speed Boost Yanma is capable of,
click here.
Outspeeding Yanma is more rare than finding an iss post in the XY Little Cup forums. And if you DO manage to take an Air Slash from it, you have to pray that it doesn't flinch you (Air Slash's flinch chance is equal to Scald's burn rate and Focus Blast's miss rate, so good luck there). When it comes to cleaning up weakened teams mid-game or late-game, Yanma annihilates everything without caring about the Speed of its enemies or any Substitutes they may have up. Some might think that the key to Yanma's prowess is only in its Speed, but it has other ways of exerting its brokenness in the tier without having to boost its Speed, which brings me to my next point:
Compound Eyes Hypnosis Yanma
Yanma @ Berry Juice
Ability: Compound Eyes
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Spd / 236 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Hypnosis
- U-turn
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
Everyone knows Hypnosis has horribly unreliable accuracy and that it's always been that way. Well, Yanma happens to have just the ability to make it usable in competitive play, Compound Eyes (raises accuracy of moves by 30%). Putting a Pokemon to sleep isn't all that broken, that happens all the time, right? Yanma takes sleep advantage to a new level by using U-turn; if the foe stays in, Yanma can U-turn out to a setup mon and take advantage of the sleeping enemy who is unable to act... if the foe switches out, Yanma can deal light damage to the incoming foe (breaking Sash, Sturdy, Air Balloon, etc.) and then bring in a check or counter to it with no downside at all. The fact that Yanma is already at 20 Speed with this set means that it can forcibly shift momentum at any time by going first and putting the enemy to sleep with an accuracy-boosted Hypnosis so that they don't get to have a turn before Yanma goes for the U-turn directly afterward. This creates a pretty unfair disadvantage that is very hard to avoid since Yanma outspeeds 99% of the tier, and it requires no thinking or prediction to pull off. This is definitely broken. The only way to stop this outside of Natu (easy to predict around) is to run one of a select few mons to get Insomnia/Vital Spirit, the best of these being
MixKrow and
Elekid. Let's see how they fare against this set:
MixKrow's Life Orb Sucker Punch has only a 6.3% chance to OHKO this Yanma (which will heal with Berry Juice), while Yanma easily 2HKOs Murkrow with Bug Buzz. This means that even if Murkrow comes in on the Hypnosis and not an attack, it has a 6.3% chance of winning against Yanma after making it in safely. If MixKrow goes for Brave Bird, it will not outspeed and has to take a Bug Buzz, and then die to its own recoil after taking Yanma down. This is more of a kamikaze attempt than an actual answer to it and is kind of crazy.
236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
A similar case with Vital Spirit Elekid, as it can only speed tie with Yanma, although it can beat it outright if it comes in on the Hypnosis successfully and is lucky enough to win the Speed tie.
236+ SpA Yanma Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Elekid: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Additional Comments
Fuck Yanma.
1) Is Yanma broken?
Yes, Yanma is broken. The Speed Boost set with Life Orb is too much when combined with STAB Air Slash and its flinch rate, because you'll never outspeed it without priority and you can't even defend yourself with Substitute against it. Stealth Rock severely cripples Yanma but everyone knows how easy that is to remove now that Defog is buffed to remove hazards from both sides and bulky things like Gligar and Vullaby have access to it. Yanma's typing is horrible defensively (though it does have an immunity to Ground and a 4x resistance to Grass and Fighting) but you have to be able to hit it for its defensive vulnerabilities to count, and good luck with that. The Hypnosis + U-turn combination on the Compound Eyes set is insane and should not be allowed for reasons I mentioned in my segment on it above.
2) Is Yanma making Little Cup not fun?
Yes. It's not as absurdly powerful as Tangela but it's annoying as fuck and has a lot of unfair things going for it that ruin the fun in a lot of cases. Those Air Slash flinches are awful. Too much luck is never competitive, especially when you already outspeed damn near everything and have incredible STAB coverage to back it up.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
The amount of rage quits this thing causes on a daily basis would probably suggest that people are being annoyed enough to have had this cross their mind at least a few times.
