TANGELA AND YANMA ARE BANNED

[tcr]

I would argue that Yanma isn't broken so much as it is uncompetitive. Hypnosis+U-turn is basically a free kill as well as massive momentum, that is extremely hard to recover from. Hypnosis+Substitute has the potential to take out 3+ pokemon per game, abusing sleep and what not. Now, neither of those are ban worthy by themselves, as Ray Jay said,momentum grabbing has never been a precedent for banning. However, just the idea of sleep abuse form such a fast pokemon isnt fun in the slightest. It would be far different if Yanma's highest speed was 17 or so. But when it outspeeds the large majority of the metagame, and an accurate sleep move to boot, I just think it should be gone.

 

[DTC]

as Ray Jay said,momentum grabbing has never been a precedent for banning.

I know you're arguing that Yanma should be banned, but I don't get this argument at all. Momentum was definitely a big reason a lot of OU suspects were banned last gen, particularly for Genesect and Tornadus-T (whether you agree with them being banned or not is irrelevant to this discussion; what is relevant is that there IS a precedent of sorts). Yanma not only obtains momentum a lot better than pretty much everything we've ever seen before (20 Speed, Hypnosis) but it's also far from useless outside of that.

 

[tcr]

I know you're arguing that Yanma should be banned, but I don't get this argument at all. Momentum was definitely a big reason a lot of OU suspects were banned last gen, particularly for Genesect and Tornadus-T (whether you agree with them being banned or not is irrelevant to this discussion; what is relevant is that there IS a precedent of sorts). Yanma not only obtains momentum a lot better than pretty much everything we've ever seen before (20 Speed, Hypnosis) but it's also far from useless outside of that.

no, genesect was banned because of how centralizing it was. The fact Heatran was number 1 in usage was the reason it got the ban, Genesect wasn't broken so much as it was centralizing (I still agree with that ban tho). Tornadus was the same way, promoting rain so much as possible. A lot of sets didnt even run U-turn on Tornadus.

Neither of those had much to do with momentum (you can argue that Genesects excellency at grabbing momentum was the reason heatran rose in usage and thus the reason for overcentralizing but eh). Yanma however, grabs excellent momentum for a team, but if it was just U turn it would be ok. Hypnosis however makes it so you are completely screwed either way, as wellas essentailly knocking out a pokemon for the battle (even though sleep got nerfed it is still powerful, especially with the Hyper Offensive take LC has taken). Im not saying its useless, its speed boost set is amazing at cleaning up, however thats just it. It is THE definition of a late game sweeper, and its really good at it, but not to the point where it is broken. it relies heavily on that 4th slotwhich could be Protect/ HP Fire/ HP Ground/ HP Ice/ Giga Drain. Depending on what you want gone. It also heavily relies on teammates to takeout checks and counters (which there are a lot of). However as others have stated, the speed boost set isnt the broken one. The compoundeyes set is uncompetitive in my opinion and needs to go.

 

[Sunkern]

Yanma is annoying but not necessarily broken. Fletchling does a good job smacking it. Tangela on the other hand is unstopable in the sun. You can't outspeed it, you can't OKHO it with priority, it can OHKO you with growth, and it can set up easily with sleep powder. No other pokemon is this ridiculous in LC right now. Kill it with fire

 

[blarajan]

Ok, this thread has served its original purpose, and all discussion about the suspects that we are going to have has been had. Here are the seven members of the original Little Cup council:

macle (leader)
Ray Jay
Goddess Briyella
Treecko
apt-get
Heysup
prem

You guys have until January 3rd to submit your votes in PM to me. Here are the options:

1) Ban Tangela and Yanma
2) Ban Tangela and not Yanma
3) Ban Yanma and not Tangela
4) Ban neither Yanma or Tangela

Each vote that has been PMed to me needs to explain the basis for the vote. I will copy and paste the votes into this thread after I receive all of them.

It will take a majority vote of ban (4) for either Pokemon to ban it. Votes of "ban Tangela and Yanma" will count as one each, while votes of "ban Yanma and not Tangela" will only contribute to Yanma (obviously). This council will be the basis of the council for the next suspect test, but by then we'll be adopting my new system, so members will need to prove activity / can be removed. There will be rotating council members in future tests, so 11 votes total, which will require a 7-4 vote for ban (as those voting will have previously voted for suspects, I want there to be a higher than just simple majority threshold for banning).

Happy voting!

 

[blarajan]

Tangela and Yanma are both banned from Little Cup. Both Tangela and Yanma received a 7-0 vote to ban (no council member voted to leave either suspect in the tier).

Here are their responses in the order I received them:

Treecko

Ban Tangela
Everything you could ever want to know about Tangela has been posted in the suspect thread, but basically it just has an unbelievable combination of bulk and power that is unmatched in Little Cup. In sun, Tangela is nearly impossible to outspeed and scores a 2HKO or better on almost the entire tier. The things that it can't KO just get put to sleep. You can't even rely on priority to take it out because of its natural bulk and typing that grants it a weakness only to Ice Shard, a move that's rarely seen in the tier because all of its users barring Snover are bad. Even outside of sun, Tangela still has decent Speed and fantastic bulk, especially when accounting for Regenerator that can compensate for Life Orb recoil. Tangela is really a no-brainer.

Ban Yanma
I was one of the more vocal people about Yanma's ban, and even though I love to use it, it's almost as broken in my eyes as Tangela is. With 20 Speed naturally, which allows it to outspeed nearly the entire unboosted tier, and fantastic Special Attack combined with amazing coverage with its STABs alone, Yanma can hit almost everything really hard before it can strike back. But even without taking this into account, Yanma's fast Compound Eyes Hypnosis allows it to beat every one of its counters except for obscure shit like Insomnia Hoothoot. Good bulk for an offensive Pokemon keeps Yanma from becoming helpless in the face of priority, and the addition of Defog's hazard removal makes it easy for Yanma to pivot in and out throughout the battle despite its 4x Stealth Rock weakness. U-turn with Hypnosis also allows Yanma to pivot out into something else that can its best checks.

Heysup

My vote is:

1) Ban Tangela and Yanma

Tangela:

Tangela is able to run a multitude of sets that make the game too easy and uncompetitive versus teams without it. As it stands, there is basically no reason to use any Pokemon over Tangela. Offensively, it can use a Chlorophyll or bulky. Or my personal favorite, the mix. With Chlorophyll, Tangela's speed is virtually unattainable by most scarfers and all unboosted Pokemon. Whether you opt to OHKO most of the tier with LO STAB SolarBeam or choose to exploit Tangela's bulk with Eviolite and Growth, you will find that almost nothing stands in your way. With Regenerator, Tangela becomes the best and easiest pivot to use of all time. You can't go wrong with Sleep Powder and Leaf Storm (or Giga Drain), but if you DO you just switch-out and recover your HP back. This makes it as uncompetitive as the Chlorophyll set in my opinion even if it's less of an offensive threat as it makes up for it in durability.

All in all, every Tangela set is too much to handle (so those saying "if only Chlorophyll is broken we should just ban Vulpix or the ability" etc can rest easy). The calculations speak for themselves.

Yanma:

Yanma has all of the tools of an offensive powerhouse. High SpA and Speed with STABs that have high base power and great coverage and secondary effects. However, with just Speed Boost, Yanma might have been able to last another round. The compoundeyes hypnosis sets are what push Yanma across the line. With Compoundeyes, Hypnosis hits 78% of the time and Air Slash doesn't miss. This gives Yanma basically a free turn a good percentage of the time due to the odds of Hypnosis hitting + getting more than a 1 turn sleep is actually likely to happen. With that in mind adding a utility move like Substitute or U-turn makes Yanma that much more difficult to deal with. With Substitute, you can play the %s. You WILL almost assuredly get a Substitute on a free turn from Sleep, and then you can use Base 75 SpA to take chunks away at the opponents team. If you want to tell me that "lol sleep talk noob" well, you should perhaps try using that strategy. Unless you have some of the bulkiest Pokemon in the metagame, you are not going to be able to take Yanma down because of the simple fact that you do NOT know when you're going to get out of Sleep (unless its the last turn, in which case you've given two extra turns). Even if Yanma can't outright kill your Pokemon, it will still be a struggle to get attacks off before Yanma gets the flinch or SpD drop it needs to finish the job. U-turn is just a huge momentum grabber - you can just Sleep and ease prediction on the switch-out. It's an algorithm.

The common theme is the lack of risk in these sets. You have basically nothing to risk besides the 78% first turn Hypnosis. It's also worth noting that Yanma can take a hit from certain Pokemon even if it misses, and also worth noting is that more Pokemon will be forced out than not, which also gives an extra chance to hit Hypnosis.

Stealth Rock weakness is always brought up as an argument but it's really a lackluster one. Besides Defog, Yanma makes one of the better leads in the metagame simply from its 1 on 1 capabilities that it gets from Hypnosis.

Yanma needs to get out.

macle...lol

Ban Tangela and Yanma

Tangela

Its been awhile since i felt something was such an obvious ban. Tangela combines amazing bulk with a great attacking stats. Its speed isn't something to laugh about especially under sun. Under sun, tangela can outspeed most of the meta, and then KO with Solarbeam, Ancient Power, or HP Fire. Anything not koed can be put to sleep and then taken out. Honestly, Tangela just rips through teams with ease.

Yanma

Yanma isn't as clear cut as Tangela. Yanma has a few reliable counters (munchlax, porygon, licky) but with compounds eyes and hypnosis, Yanma can put his counters to sleep and switch out.

blah blah ill write more tomorrow

Goddess Briyella

Sorry, I was away when you messaged me on IRC.

My vote is to ban both Tangela and Yanma from Little Cup.

All of Tangela's sets are highly overpowering in the Little Cup metagame; if Tangela isn't utterly destroying everything in sight with literally nothing to stop it, it's laughing at its opponents with the immortality provided to it by Regenerator. Not only is it offensively a huge problem, but its sky-high natural physical bulk and Chlorophyll in Sun add to its brokenness exponentially. It is an extremely overcentralized Pokemon that is very unhealthy for the metagame and needs to go.

Yanma's Compound Eyes/Hypnosis + U-turn combination is a really unfair thing to face, as it already outspeeds 99% of the tier (there is no higher natural Speed than 20 so things like Elekid can only tie with it), puts a foe out of commission without it getting to move, and then heavily shifts momentum whether the opponent switches or not. Yanma's Speed Boost set is less blatantly broken but also is very overpowering mid-game and especially late-game, cleaning everything with little to nothing that can revenge it due to its steadily increasing Speed and its sheer power and amazing STAB coverage. It isn't quite as problematic as Tangela but is still quite unhealthy for the metagame, and by objective figuring, I believe it should be removed.

prem

ban both

tangela is literally an unstoppable god who has the bulk of things with eviolite except without it. then it gets eviolite. then it also has the attack of solosis, except its bulky and fast. then lets not forget it has amazing abilities in chlorophyll which makes it untouchable and kills eveything. then regen leaf storm is literally hitler. i dont acually care about the evio set its just bulky and doesnt die lol


yanma is capable of picking apart the opponents team in a way that both eliminates a counter / threat, while also keeps all the momentum in its favor. its also an end game sweeper with speed boost, but i care less about that because it has a lot of checks and counters. the sub hypnosis set however literally removes its counters, never dies, is protected from all forms of retaliation and kills everthing in 2 hits.


its kinda 130 so i think this is good enough if you need legit paragraphs just let me know ool

apt-get

1) Ban Tangela and Yanma

I really didn't want to come to this, but I must agree that both of them are broken.

Tangela

This thing is obviously one of the most broken things in the tier. STAB Life Orb Solarbeam will OHKO anything that doesn't resist it, Chlorophyll boosts its speed to outspeed most Choice Scarf users, Ancient Power deals with Bug- and Flying-types and has a small boost chance that could break games in half, and Sleep Powder just eliminates from the battle anything that could be threatening to it (not that anything bar Goomy is really threatening to Tangela, as they're all 2HKOed at worst by any of its moves). But that's not his only set, as the Leaf Storm Regenerator one is one of the deadliest Hit-And-Run attackers in Little Cup, obliterating things with a Life Orb-boosted Leaf Storm, and switching out, regaining any health lost in the matchup with Regenerator. It can also use Knock Off and Sleep Powder, guaranteeing that nothing will survive its hits. It also hits a decent 15 speed tier, enough to outspeed most defensive pokémon in the metagame. However, even if it is matched up against a faster attacker, it will probably tank the hit, thanks to its base 115 defense.

Yanma

If complex bans were allowed, I'd only ban the Compoundeyes set, but it's not possible.

Yanma has two effective sets: Speed Boost, and Compoundeyes. The Speed Boost set is an excellent late-game sweeper, able to clean most offensive and weakened teams, thanks to Life Orb-boosted attacks and a powerful STAB move in Bug Buzz. No Choice Scarf user can outspeed it, however, Priority hurts it. It really depends on its last moveslot either, depending on what combination of Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Ice / Protect / Giga Drain / Hidden Power Fire you used. It's really good, but not broken.

The Compoundeyes set is one of the biggest momentum grabbers and defensive breakers in LC, notably thanks to the combination of Hypnosis and U-turn, allowing it to easily make a defensive pokémon switching in fall asleep, and gain huge momentum instantly with U-turn. It isn't an offensive slouch either, as it still has Bug Buzz and Air Slash to easily clean late-game with 20 speed. Sleep is really crippling in Little Cup, even with the nerf, and Berry Juice allows it to basically have a second life if it mispredicts (or gets hit by priority). It is effectively uncompetitive, as you are not rewarded for predicting your opponent's moves, but always punished, thanks to Hypnosis and U-turn, always giving the momentum to your opponent.

It's broken.

Ray Jay

My choice is to ban Tangela and Yanma.

Tangela: Kind of obvious IMO, but I'll explain it anyway. Tangela has two blatantly broken sets in sun, both Life Orb Solarbeam and Eviolite Growth Giga Drain, which basically outmuscle traditional Tangela counters. It's not overcentralizing (I think you might find Tang / its counters surprising low on the usage stats), it's just too strong. The problem is some of its counters are just useless, such as Goomy. The other problem is you can't just ban drought because honestly Ponyta and Larvesta with Sunny Day get to set up just as much as Vulpix. Banning Chlorophyll Tangela also doesn't accomplish enough because it ignores how broken Tangela's sets are outside of sun (mostly LO Leaf Storm Regenerator, which punches massive holes in teams and can literally just be thrown out as early as you like with essentially no repercussions). So overall I am voting this time to ban Tangela, and I believe simply banning Tangela and not a complex ban involving Chlorophyll is the right move. You don't ban a playstyle (sun / drought / whatever) on account of a single Pokemon breaking it.

Yanma: I personally really like Yanma and think it's a very fun Pokemon to have in the metagame, but unfortunately, it's not right to make tiering decisions based on fun. Yanma, as I showed in some posts in the suspect thread, simply is too strong compared to the rest of Little Cup in all-around prowess and thus needs to go. I do believe the pro Yanma people had some good arguments but ultimately failed to convince me that a.) special walls counter Yanma hard enough and b.) Hypnosis missing / inability to switch in meant Yanma doesn't have too much longevity. I think just because there are special walls Yanma can't 2HKO such as Munchlax and Lickitung does not mean it cannot be overpowered. It seems to me like the main argument for Yanma staying is that it is unable to handle its checks and counters and brokenness comes from an ability to take out supposed "checks and counters", but I think this ignores the fact that Yanma is simply leagues stronger / easier to use than any other Pokemon in LC right now bar Murkrow, who, if used in the same manner as Yanma, will kill itself rather quickly. Yanma is broken because it has not one but two sets that nearly every team can benefit from if they started using them; Compound Eyes gets teams an unrivaled amount of momentum while also spreading status to key threats while maintaining offensive pressure, and Speed Boost effortlessly sweeps if a few key threats can be eliminated, which is easy enough through the use of crippling walls with a Trick Misdreavus or through repeated Defogs from Gligar.