TANGELA AND YANMA ARE BANNED

[tcr]

Lol at vulpix being "bad." Its not ninetales guys.

As Dcae said, you can literally slap TangPix on any team and expect it to do good. I got bored and decided to make an amaura team, and decided to slap tangpix on it because why not. It 6-0d Kingmidas and the team was absolutely garbge(he got revenge tho). IIRC the only things that did work were tangela vulpix and Amaura. So plz, quit with the vulpix is bad comments.

Regardless that only furhers the tangela is broken stance, because it forces you to use what is supposedly "a garbage pokemon."

 

[kingmidas]

Lol at vulpix being "bad." Its not ninetales guys.

As Dcae said, you can literally slap TangPix on any team and expect it to do good. I got bored and decided to make an amaura team, and decided to slap tangpix on it because why not. It 6-0d Kingmidas and the team was absolutely garbge(he got revenge tho). IIRC the only things that did work were tangela vulpix and Amaura. So plz, quit with the vulpix is bad comments.

Regardless that only furhers the tangela is broken stance, because it forces you to use what is supposedly "a garbage pokemon."

Confirming the asskicking :(. but yeah the team just pressured me like hell, as it didn't even need sun to be up the majority of the time to have a working team.

 

[tcr]

When you can beat players with a two pokemon core you know something is wrong.

 

[Electrolyte]

To be really honest, whether Vulpix is viable or not isn't of any matter to this thread (so we should prolly stop talking about it...) but the fact in the matter is that it doesn't matter what Vulpix's viability actually is, Tangela drags it along in all of its OP sweeping frat parties and is just too broken. As I said earlier, the fact that people CAN and DO just slap on Tangela + Vulpix on a team and not lose the least bit of synergy is completely bad for any teambuilding related skill requirement we can ever hope this tier to uphold.

Not even considering how powerful Regen Tangela is, the fact that Sun Tangela is so powerful that it can be put on any team with another Pokemon and still improve the team clearly shows that it's too broken.


Another interesting viewpoint I'd like to bring up is the fact that Sun Tangela in itself is worth the same as or more than two Pokemon slots. This can be clearly seen by the fact that people would and do swap out two team slots just to not even secure but allow the chance of a Tangela Sun sweep. Obviously this is a good trade off because people like it and it works, but from a teambuilding viewpoint, you can notice that because making such a trade off benefits teams, Tangela in the Sun (which people would prefer over two team slots) can be more destructive than two whole other Pokemon.

You might say that Vulpix helps out too but let's be honest when people slap on Tangela they don't ever even give a second thought about "oh AND Vulpix helps out in THIS way too etc etc", they're doing it for Tangela and for Tangela only.

 

[HedgeKnight]

Is tangela broken? Probably.
Is it conducive of a healthy metagame? No. It pushes the metagame so far into sun that slower teams not using sun need hippopotas or snover. It's an omnipresent, hard-to-beat threat.

 

[doinktonberry]

Is tangela broken? (Flashes back to the tiny sprited froakie OHKOing it with ice beam and giggles)
but in all seriousness, it's insane bulk, insanely powerful leaf storm, insane versatility, regen, chlorophyll, powder moves, knock off, and decent coverage should have gotten it quickbanned a long time ago. Even without vulpix, all you have taken away is chlorophyll. Kind of.
Is it limiting teambuilding?
When people go on about running goomy solely to counter tangela, then duh.
Is it deterring people from playing little cup?
Yes. Ask anybody who plays little cup without wanting to resort to using crap like that and they will say yes a thousand times over. There is no fun in playing any tier if all games essentially equate to having to run around one pokemon.
As for yanma, while I will say that it can be very problematic to deal with, I have not faced off against enough of them to make a clear cut statement. I do kinda wish gligar got looked at first before, but I'll just hold back until I can make an actual statement on it.

 

[atomicllamas]

I think it has been pretty well covered so far, that Vulpix is actually not dead weight on a team, and is in fact actually quit useful outside of providing sun for Tangela. But Vulpix is also actually really specially bulky, with only Ponyta having higher special bulk, while Vulpix has the benefit of being psuedo-neutral to water, eviolite Vulpix is also really hard to switch into thanks to W-o-W and a sun boosted Fire Blast, while being hard to wear down, thanks to its bulk and Pain Split. So no, Vulpix isn't a trash mon at all, it has a niche even outside of being a suicidal sun setter or w/e. That being said, if Vulpix was a trash mon it doesn't even matter, Tangela definitely does enough work in 4-7 sun turns to count for 2+ pokemon. (This is where Electrolyte ninja'd me and made my post look dumb :/). Tangela's power, utility, and abilities make it broken beyond any doubt, and it is quite obvious that Tangela was not originally designed to be and LC mon.

Anywho, I haven't talked about Yanma at all yet, so I would like to comment on that. If Yanma only had access to speed boost, I think that we could all agree it is definitely not broken, as that set has definite Checks / Counters in Archen, Misdreavus, Gligar (if no HP Ice), Magneton (if no HP ground), and more. However, the Compound Eyes Hypnosis set is almost impossible to switch into and has a completely different (and smaller) set of counters. Hypnosis (in conjunction with Compound Eyes) is the best sleep inducing move this gen in terms of what it affects, as grass types and overcoat pokemon are not immune to its effects. This means that the only way to avoid being put to sleep from hypnosis is from Insomnia, Sweet Veil (only Swirlix avoids sleep, not teammates from what I have read), or vital spirit. All viable users of these abilities (all of the users) are 2hkoed by by Yanma's STABs alone, and all are outsped by Yanma except Elekid which must rely on a speed tie. Sleep Talk users such as Munchlax and Chinchou seem like a decent option to take on Yanma, as they are both decently bulky (mostly Munchlax), but with Hypnosis + U-turn, Yanma can simply sleep them and then gain a ton of momentum. The fact that it is SR weak isn't much of a factor when plenty of good pokemon in LC can provide defog support with ease (read gligar). I'm not necessarily convinced, however, that Yanma is broken as sleep time is shorter and Yanma has problems sweeping entire teams once it has put something to sleep. It does seem to be an issue thought, that you have to sacrifice one thing to sleep, and more than likely something else switching in on Yanma, if it gets in once.

 

[prem]

Anywho, I haven't talked about Yanma at all yet, so I would like to comment on that. If Yanma only had access to speed boost, I think that we could all agree it is definitely not broken, as that set has definite Checks / Counters in Archen, Misdreavus, Gligar (if no HP Ice), Magneton (if no HP ground), and more. However, the Compound Eyes Hypnosis set is almost impossible to switch into and has a completely different (and smaller) set of counters. Hypnosis (in conjunction with Compound Eyes) is the best sleep inducing move this gen in terms of what it affects, as grass types and overcoat pokemon are not immune to its effects. This means that the only way to avoid being put to sleep from hypnosis is from Insomnia, Sweet Veil (only Swirlix avoids sleep, not teammates from what I have read), or vital spirit. All viable users of these abilities (all of the users) are 2hkoed by by Yanma's STABs alone, and all are outsped by Yanma except Elekid which must rely on a speed tie. Sleep Talk users such as Munchlax and Chinchou seem like a decent option to take on Yanma, as they are both decently bulky (mostly Munchlax), but with Hypnosis + U-turn, Yanma can simply sleep them and then gain a ton of momentum. The fact that it is SR weak isn't much of a factor when plenty of good pokemon in LC can provide defog support with ease (read gligar). I'm not necessarily convinced, however, that Yanma is broken as sleep time is shorter and Yanma has problems sweeping entire teams once it has put something to sleep. It does seem to be an issue thought, that you have to sacrifice one thing to sleep, and more than likely something else switching in on Yanma, if it gets in once.

just saying bulky cm swirlix will not get 2hkoed by yanma. also swirlix with its berry juice intact wont get 2hkoed either cause its not ohkoed. obviously the first one isnt very common (though good) but its still just that there are sleep immune things.

anyway my biggest problem with your post is the bolded line. Yanma has problems sweeping entire teams? as in it can feasibly do that on a somewhat consistent basis? i dont see how something that is being judged by " well it struggles to sweep my entire team single handedly" is balanced for the metagame. Yanma has teammates to take care of the threats that it cant deal with so just not being able to sweep a team alone shouldnt be reason to believe it isnt broken.

 

[atomicllamas]

just saying bulky cm swirlix will not get 2hkoed by yanma. also swirlix with its berry juice intact wont get 2hkoed either cause its not ohkoed. obviously the first one isnt very common (though good) but its still just that there are sleep immune things.

anyway my biggest problem with your post is the bolded line. Yanma has problems sweeping entire teams? as in it can feasibly do that on a somewhat consistent basis? i dont see how something that is being judged by " well it struggles to sweep my entire team single handedly" is balanced for the metagame. Yanma has teammates to take care of the threats that it cant deal with so just not being able to sweep a team alone shouldnt be reason to believe it isnt broken.

Forgot about that for Swirlix, good point.

I guess my point was more along the lines, of I can see why there is more controversy, because unlike sun-Tangela it isn't sweeping well-built teams by itself. Obviously Yanma is a very good pokemon (and most likely broken) but it is in a more subtle way (which the next sentence attempted to explain that it is a 2 or 3-1 exchange). I am really leaning towards broken due to the sheer amount of momentum generated by an accurate Hypnosis and U-Turn.

 

[Heysup]

If Yanma only had access to speed boost, I think that we could all agree it is definitely not broken, as that set has definite Checks / Counters in Archen, Misdreavus, Gligar (if no HP Ice), Magneton (if no HP ground), and more. However, the Compound Eyes Hypnosis set is almost impossible to switch into and has a completely different (and smaller) set of counters.

Not the first time I have seen someone say this (sry atomicllamas) but I think its about time we debunked this.

Call me a nitpicker or tell me that something being "broken" isn't subjective or whatever, but flawed reasoning is still flawed reasoning. Something having a specific "set of checks/counters" is not a reason to ban/not ban something as it is dependent on a billion other factors. First of all, the number of counters is usually irrelevant unless they are all viable effective. In the case of (even just speed-boost) Yanma, lots of the Pokemon that resist its dual STABs will get hit in the face by another attack (for example, Magnemite) OR are simply just not as threatening Pokemon (Archen). Second, the amount the Pokemon is better than every other Pokemon besides its counters can outweigh the amount of counters. Consider things like Kyogre who "has definite checks / counters" (or at least, lets say it is "debatable") but it's just so much better than everything else one couldn't even fathom it being not uber. Yanma isn't the Kyogre of LC but the point that having counters and checks doesn't mean something is not broken when comparing the Pokemon to the rest of the metagame. And finally, you have to consider what a Pokemon can do once its counters drop. For example, LO Meditite's counter drops you may have trouble switching into it but it won't take your team out like Speed boost Yanma would.

tl;dr "having checks and counters" does not make a Pokemon automatically "not broken".

I guess my point was more along the lines, of I can see why there is more controversy, because unlike sun-Tangela it isn't sweeping well-built teams by itself. Obviously Yanma is a very good pokemon (and most likely broken) but it is in a more subtle way (which the next sentence attempted to explain that it is a 2 or 3-1 exchange). I am really leaning towards broken due to the sheer amount of momentum generated by an accurate Hypnosis and U-Turn.

I feel like I'm picking on you :p

Prem sort of said this but not really (lul). Comparing the two suspects is not a valid line of reasoning for explaining why one might be broken or not. I do see that you said "most likely broken" but my point is this:
The banning something does not make it a precedent for something else to be banned (though it works the opposite way, if you were to not ban Tangela I would argue we can't ban anything less "powerful"). What I mean is that we can't be taking the fact that Tangela is incredibly broken as an argument or a standard for banning other Pokemon because it doesn't make logical sense. If we were to do it that way, we would be stuck at banning 1 Pokemon (Scyther) and since everything looks like bullshit compared to Scyther nothing else would fit our standards. Good thing we don't do it that way.

These might just be philosophical points but they are mostly just logic, which I think should objectively be part of everyone's reasoning for banning something until value judgments are needed.

 

[Tuter King]

I can't speak about if Yanma is broken or not, because I haven't been playing the current tier to much, I can though speak of Tangela. This things is so strong and way to good for lc. With Chlorophyll it gains double speed out speeding almost everything in the tier and this wouldn't be to bad if it wasn't for it's amazing Def and SAtk. This thing is so hard to kill and unless you have a set counter for it on your team it has a chance to sweep your entire team.

So is it broken, yes, yes it is.

Is it making the meta game less fun? Yes

Is it making people not play lc? Well I would be playing lc but I'm so sick of these super op pokemon in lc that I had to stop playing because I was getting way to pissed off. Yanma is probably the same but, as I stated, I've stopped playing before that became popular to use because I was already fed up with lc.

 

[An-94]

Munchlax @ Berry Juice
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 Atk / 236 SDef / 32 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Body Slam
- Fire Punch
- Whirlwind
- Sleep Talk

this is the set I use in LC on my team whenever I dont wanna be bothered by Yanma as you can see its the regular set but it has sleep talk and berry juice so i can switch in if needed and I can take the hypno from a hypno (BAN ME PLEASE) I'll post calcs later but yanma always loses this fight or is forced out ofc via whirlwind which also allows me to bring out the opps defoger should they have one ya know

 

[prem]

Munchlax @ Berry Juice
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 Atk / 236 SDef / 32 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Body Slam
- Fire Punch
- Whirlwind
- Sleep Talk

this is the set I use in LC on my team whenever I dont wanna be bothered by Yanma as you can see its the regular set but it has sleep talk and berry juice so i can switch in if needed and I can take the hypno from a hypno (BAN ME PLEASE) I'll post calcs later but yanma always loses this fight or is forced out ofc via whirlwind which also allows me to bring out the opps defoger should they have one ya know

so you mentioned the one of like 4 counters to yanma? having a counter doesnt mean a pokemon isnt broken. KYGORE ISNT BROKEN GASTRODON AND SHEDINJA WALL IT. there are a LOT of things that can take advantage of munchlax, especially when it doesnt even have recycle. you can just wear that down with yanma then switch out lol. it will prevent yanma from sweeping for a while but honestly munchy can come in on air slashes all day and eventually will lose while yanma takes about no damage in the process.

 

[An-94]

236+ Atk Munchlax Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Munchlax can come in and take the needed 2 air slashes bring down your berry juice and then KO you or whirlwind if need be

236+ SpA Life Orb Yanma Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 9-12 (30 - 40%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO

this doesn't do enough damage that munchlax will fail plus factor in SR which auto activates your beloved berry juice and after that's gone what are you really going to do?

236+ SpA Life Orb Yanma Air Slash vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 8-9 (24.2 - 27.2%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Munchlax Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 16-20 (69.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

eh... incase someone somewhere runs max HP/spd munchlax idk... but still Yanma can't beat this set so easily where it will "take no damage in the process" lol

 

[prem]

236+ Atk Munchlax Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Munchlax can come in and take the needed 2 air slashes bring down your berry juice and then KO you or whirlwind if need be

236+ SpA Life Orb Yanma Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 9-12 (30 - 40%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO

this doesn't do enough damage that munchlax will fail plus factor in SR which auto activates your beloved berry juice and after that's gone what are you really going to do?

236+ SpA Life Orb Yanma Air Slash vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 8-9 (24.2 - 27.2%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Munchlax Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 16-20 (69.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

eh... incase someone somewhere runs max HP/spd munchlax idk... but still Yanma can't beat this set so easily where it will "take no damage in the process" lol

no i know munchlax will win. i did mention its one of the counters. yanma can easily just switch out to one of the many things that can shit on munchlax. all yanma has to do is just air slash everytime munchlax comes in and eventually munchlax willl die. yanma isnt a lone force, its just not something thats managable for teams because it has the ability to neuter one thing in the game, unless you run sleep talk on a mon that clearly has no way of forcing itself to sleep (which shows how centralizing yanma is), and then it can just use its great stabs and power to effectively weaken teams to the point where other weaker sweepers can win easily (like vanha)

 

[gali]

Alright, I decided to make a new post because it will probably be seen more.

Tangela: I honestly don't understand how anyone could not consider this thing broken. Not only does it have absurd physical bulk even without an Eviolite, but it also has a very high Special Attack stat that it can still make use of on its defensive sets. It's Chlorophyll sets are ridiculously powerful, with both the LO and Growth sets being able to outspeed the entire tier and OHKO the majority of it. And, is something survives Tangela's onslaught, is has the sheer bulk to take the attack and finish off the opponent right back. The LO Regenerator set just completely obiterates anything that doesn't resist Grass with STAB Leaf Storm, and has the room to carry 2 fantastic support moves in Sleep Powder and Knock Off. And the bulky set... just never dies. It can incapacitate large portions of the meta with the aforementioned 2 moves, survive almost any attack, and deal good damage while healing itself with Giga Drain. Tangela also severely restricts teambuilding; In order for a team to do well, you have to run at least 2 checks to it, because of how absurdly powerful it is in the sun. Basically, no matter what way you dice it, Tangela can either sweep or wall almost the entire tier with little effort or skill. It's clearly broken.

Yanma: Yanma is broken, but is brokenness is not nearly as clear. While it has a debilitating 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, Yanma makes up for this flaw with its numerous positive traits. Amazing dual STABs, fantastic speed, resistances to common priority moves... The list just goes on. Yanma typically runs 2 different types of sets. Its Speed Boost set is the best late-game cleaners in the tier, being able to easily 2HKO much of the tier with its Life Orb-boosted STAB attacks. In addition, Yanma becomes impossible to revenge kill outside of priority after one turn, bue to Speed Boost and its already amazing speed. While this set is powerful, it is not what makes Yanma broken. Whatt makes Yanma broken is its Compoundeyes set. This set uses Yanma's high Speed stat of 20 - the highest in the tier - and Compoundeyes to fire off a 78% accurate Hypnosis. Unlike Sleep Powder and Spore, Grass-types and Vullaby aren't immune to Hypnosis, meaning it can (pretty) reliably incapacitate something that your team has trouble with and set up a sweep. In addition, everything that has an Ability that gives it a sleep immunity is easily dealt with by Yanma's STABs, with the exception of Sweet Veil Swrlix (and that is outclassed by Spritzee). And, once it puts a Pokemon to sleep, Yanma can simply U-Turn out, grabbing a huge amount of momentum and setting you up for an easy sweep. FFor a while, I started running Sleep Talk on my Spritzee just so it could check Compoundeyes Yanma, which goes to show just how centralizing it is. And It's Stealth Rock weakness isn't even that big of an issue with Defog Gligar everywhere. Yanma's ability to set up a sweep for you with almost no effort, and to a lesser extent its sweeping capabilities, clearly make it broken and warrant a ban.

So that's my 2 cents on the matter. If you want to challenge any of my points or poke holes in my logic, feel free to.

 

[atomicllamas]

Not the first time I have seen someone say this (sry atomicllamas) but I think its about time we debunked this.

Call me a nitpicker or tell me that something being "broken" isn't subjective or whatever, but flawed reasoning is still flawed reasoning. Something having a specific "set of checks/counters" is not a reason to ban/not ban something as it is dependent on a billion other factors. First of all, the number of counters is usually irrelevant unless they are all viable effective. In the case of (even just speed-boost) Yanma, lots of the Pokemon that resist its dual STABs will get hit in the face by another attack (for example, Magnemite) OR are simply just not as threatening Pokemon (Archen). Second, the amount the Pokemon is better than every other Pokemon besides its counters can outweigh the amount of counters. Consider things like Kyogre who "has definite checks / counters" (or at least, lets say it is "debatable") but it's just so much better than everything else one couldn't even fathom it being not uber. Yanma isn't the Kyogre of LC but the point that having counters and checks doesn't mean something is not broken when comparing the Pokemon to the rest of the metagame. And finally, you have to consider what a Pokemon can do once its counters drop. For example, LO Meditite's counter drops you may have trouble switching into it but it won't take your team out like Speed boost Yanma would.

tl;dr "having checks and counters" does not make a Pokemon automatically "not broken".

Umm I never said that having checks and counters makes something not broken, I said I don't think that speed boost Yanma is broken because the number of it's checks and counters and their general viability. Unfortunately for (Speed Boost) Yanma, it can't run Dual STABs / HP Ground / HP Ice / Giga Drain / Protect, so depending on moveset it has very good checks / counters. If Yanma is running HP ground for Magnemite it is still losing to Gligar, and both of these pokemon are really common / good in LC atm. Magnemite still checks even if it does have HP ground, because sturdy juice (again this isn't saying its not broken cause of that, magnemite checks most things). Archen is by no means a bad pokemon in LC, that is quite frankly horseshit, Archen has a ton of utility moves, good bulk, reliable recovery, and an uninvested attack stat of 17, there is a reason Archen is currently A on the viability rankings. In fact, looking through the viability rankings SB Yanma loses 1v1 to plenty of S and A rank mons unless it is specifically running a (otherwise less than effective) move for them. That isn't to say speed boost isn't good, as it is definitely one of, if not the best late game sweeper in the tier but it isn't so centralizing that you have to random terrible shit to check / counter speed boost Yanma. Gligar, the most ubiquitous pokemon in the tier, is a Counter unless you are running HP Ice, which then makes you lose to Magneton regardless whether sturdy is intact or not. Pawniard wins 1v1, Archen is a counter, it has to be really healthy to take on LO Bunnelby, etc. (just going down viability rankings, not even mentioning shit like Porygon / Lax). And yes I realize that to beat Yanma with an offensive team you often need to sack something, but realistically what is speed boost Yanma switching in on? It has a real problem taking coverage moves from most of the things in the tier, in fact the only pokemon I would feel comfortable switching LO Yanma in on in S or A rank would be Croagunk and possibly Slowpoke. So while speed boost Yanma creates a lot of 1 for 1's (or cleans late game) and is definitely a great pokemon, it is by no means broken.

This is really mostly irrelevant, as I do believe that compound eyes Yanma is broken (and therefore Yanma should be banned), but it is absolutely relevant to look at the number of good checks and counters a pokemon has in the tier before banning it (good meaning functions well in the meta outside of just checking / countering Yanma). The ability to automatically cripple a Pokemon for an entire match is too much when coupled with its high speed, good SpA, and access to U-turn. I'm sorry if I did not make it clear enough that I do believe Yanma is broken.

Prem sort of said this but not really (lul). Comparing the two suspects is not a valid line of reasoning for explaining why one might be broken or not. I do see that you said "most likely broken" but my point is this:
The banning something does not make it a precedent for something else to be banned (though it works the opposite way, if you were to not ban Tangela I would argue we can't ban anything less "powerful"). What I mean is that we can't be taking the fact that Tangela is incredibly broken as an argument or a standard for banning other Pokemon because it doesn't make logical sense. If we were to do it that way, we would be stuck at banning 1 Pokemon (Scyther) and since everything looks like bullshit compared to Scyther nothing else would fit our standards. Good thing we don't do it that way.

These might just be philosophical points but they are mostly just logic, which I think should objectively be part of everyone's reasoning for banning something until value judgments are needed.

Umm I wasn't implying that it shouldn't be banned because Tangela is more broken, I was simply empathizing with people who don't think its broken, because it is less broken than Tangela. Basically, I believe Yanma is broken, just less obviously so, and I think people are just really getting caught up on the wrong line of my post.

 

[Heysup]

Umm I never said that having checks and counters makes something not broken, I said I don't think that speed boost Yanma is broken because the number of it's checks and counters and their general viability. Unfortunately for (Speed Boost) Yanma, it can't run Dual STABs / HP Ground / HP Ice / Giga Drain / Protect, so depending on moveset it has very good checks / counters. If Yanma is running HP ground for Magnemite it is still losing to Gligar, and both of these pokemon are really common / good in LC atm. Magnemite still checks even if it does have HP ground, because sturdy juice (again this isn't saying its not broken cause of that, magnemite checks most things). Archen is by no means a bad pokemon in LC, that is quite frankly horseshit, Archen has a ton of utility moves, good bulk, reliable recovery, and an uninvested attack stat of 17, there is a reason Archen is currently A on the viability rankings. In fact, looking through the viability rankings SB Yanma loses 1v1 to plenty of S and A rank mons unless it is specifically running a (otherwise less than effective) move for them. That isn't to say speed boost isn't good, as it is definitely one of, if not the best late game sweeper in the tier but it isn't so centralizing that you have to random terrible shit to check / counter speed boost Yanma. Gligar, the most ubiquitous pokemon in the tier, is a Counter unless you are running HP Ice, which then makes you lose to Magneton regardless whether sturdy is intact or not. Pawniard wins 1v1, Archen is a counter, it has to be really healthy to take on LO Bunnelby, etc. (just going down viability rankings, not even mentioning shit like Porygon / Lax). And yes I realize that to beat Yanma with an offensive team you often need to sack something, but realistically what is speed boost Yanma switching in on? It has a real problem taking coverage moves from most of the things in the tier, in fact the only pokemon I would feel comfortable switching LO Yanma in on in S or A rank would be Croagunk and possibly Slowpoke. So while speed boost Yanma creates a lot of 1 for 1's (or cleans late game) and is definitely a great pokemon, it is by no means broken.

This is really mostly irrelevant, as I do believe that compound eyes Yanma is broken (and therefore Yanma should be banned), but it is absolutely relevant to look at the number of good checks and counters a pokemon has in the tier before banning it (good meaning functions well in the meta outside of just checking / countering Yanma). The ability to automatically cripple a Pokemon for an entire match is too much when coupled with its high speed, good SpA, and access to U-turn. I'm sorry if I did not make it clear enough that I do believe Yanma is broken.

(umm)

I was responding to your post which said "because it has a definite list of counters" which is very clearly not a restrictive statement. Sorry if you don't think that to the extreme as your wording suggests, but as I said, you weren't the first person to mention that as an argument. Once you consider how non threatening some of the counters are, the list is dramatically shorter, even more so when you consider things like the counters without longevity (ie. no recovery / take a lot of damage) which is even more important because Yanma isn't a wall breaker it's a late game cleaner. Yea, in one part of my post I said "irrelevant unless they are viable" but that was nowhere near the extent of my point - it's more that (in addition to viability etc) counters (including viable ones) are just a part of the picture, once again, considering SB Yanma's signature late-game cleaner role. I do see that I didn't really elaborate as much as I should have, but there are a lot of other things to consider that weren't mentioned in your original post. For example, counters have very little to do with Yanma's incredible revenge killing potential (outspeeds basically all Scarfers after a Protect). So yea, I agree that counters aren't irrelevant (unless they suck) but they are not the only thing to base a decision on.

Umm I wasn't implying that it shouldn't be banned because Tangela is more broken, I was simply empathizing with people who don't think its broken, because it is less broken than Tangela. Basically, I believe Yanma is broken, just less obviously so, and I think people are just really getting caught up on the wrong line of my post.

I was responding to the reasoning itself (which you posted) not your level of acceptance of the reasoning. Iono what you mean by "wrong line".... that was practically the only line of that post -_-.

Edit:

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<&littled_gk> only now did i realize how shitty
<&littled_gk> the suspect thread's title is
<&littled_gk> blara have some creativity
<&littled_gk> smh
* littled_gk is now known as [littled]gk
<&macle> illchange it
<%Heysup> make it
<%Heysup> um
<%Heysup> im trying to thin kof the worst name
<%Heysup> how to tang your dragonfly
<%Heysup> LOL

 

[Splashyship]

I'm not even going to discuss tangela because i feel it is already clear it is going to get banned and i feel there is nothing i can add to what people have already said about it. Yanma on the other hand if a different story. Is it a great LC poke? Yes. Is it broken? No. Yanma's defining feature is the fact that it hits 20 speed but there are other pokemon in the LC tier that hit 20 speed. The way i see it yanma has poor tying because as a u-turn pivot it is very detrimental being quad weak to stealth rocks and not have the bulk necessary to deal with priority attacks. it has quite a bit of power but nothing ridiculous, and the moves it gets are also not crazy strong. another thing people say is that it can sleep its counters, which is true but even with compound eyes hypnosis is only slightly more accurate than sleep powder. Also if you want to run compound eyes so that you can use hypnosis more effectively you give up speed boost which makes you more susceptible to being outsped by scarfers. Yanma is good at checking other sweepers do to the fact that it outspeeds most of them, but when it is 1v1 against a special wall like munchlax, spritzee, missy, or others it isn't really powerful enough to kill without taking hits (which due to yanma not being very bulky, it is likely these hits will kill yanma). Anyway long winded grammatically incorrect rant aside, tangela can go, yanma should stay.

 

[kingmidas]

I'm not even going to discuss tangela because i feel it is already clear it is going to get banned and i feel there is nothing i can add to what people have already said about it. Yanma on the other hand if a different story. Is it a great LC poke? Yes. Is it broken? No. Yanma's defining feature is the fact that it hits 20 speed but there are other pokemon in the LC tier that hit 20 speed. The way i see it yanma has poor tying because as a u-turn pivot it is very detrimental being quad weak to stealth rocks and not have the bulk necessary to deal with priority attacks. it has quite a bit of power but nothing ridiculous, and the moves it gets are also not crazy strong. another thing people say is that it can sleep its counters, which is true but even with compound eyes hypnosis is only slightly more accurate than sleep powder. Also if you want to run compound eyes so that you can use hypnosis more effectively you give up speed boost which makes you more susceptible to being outsped by scarfers. Yanma is good at checking other sweepers do to the fact that it outspeeds most of them, but when it is 1v1 against a special wall like munchlax, spritzee, missy, or others it isn't really powerful enough to kill without taking hits (which due to yanma not being very bulky, it is likely these hits will kill yanma). Anyway long winded grammatically incorrect rant aside, tangela can go, yanma should stay.

Where I agree with the premise of your "rant". I also find your arguments towards yanma being not broken are flawed. As shown earlier, yanma has average bulk or at least enough to take some priority hits and come back to life with berry juice. yanma's typing is also not bad, as even its Ceyes sets seemingly inability to u-turn pivot in theory, is actually disproved by well done practice. It can ev itself to be 2HKOed by stealth rocks or not just to preserve preference, and defog users, while they don't synergize well with each other defensively, offensively gligar and yanma force a lot of switches and get defog in nicely with that momentum grabbing u-turn. Also speed boost is only for sweeper sets, and ceyes has been found to be more consistent, as it has that nice 20 speed tier that means only choice scarfers can come in and take it out with its "frail" defenses aside from the rare 20 speeders like it. Also yanma can only check other sweepers if it has protect or is already in with speed boost, plus most sweepers run sub/priority this gen so mons like gligar and pawniard are either resistant to bug buzz which bypasses sub or just kill it. But yes it is weak without LO or even with it considering steel types wall it without hp ground.

 

[macle]

changed the thread title. Also i would like more talk on yanma since nearly everyone agrees tangela is broken.

 

[atomicllamas]

(umm)

I was responding to your post which said "because it has a definite list of counters" which is very clearly not a restrictive statement. Sorry if you don't think that to the extreme as your wording suggests, but as I said, you weren't the first person to mention that as an argument. Once you consider how non threatening some of the counters are, the list is dramatically shorter, even more so when you consider things like the counters without longevity (ie. no recovery / take a lot of damage) which is even more important because Yanma isn't a wall breaker it's a late game cleaner. Yea, in one part of my post I said "irrelevant unless they are viable" but that was nowhere near the extent of my point - it's more that (in addition to viability etc) counters (including viable ones) are just a part of the picture, once again, considering SB Yanma's signature late-game cleaner role. I do see that I didn't really elaborate as much as I should have, but there are a lot of other things to consider that weren't mentioned in your original post. For example, counters have very little to do with Yanma's incredible revenge killing potential (outspeeds basically all Scarfers after a Protect). So yea, I agree that counters aren't irrelevant (unless they suck) but they are not the only thing to base a decision on.

But that's the thing, plenty of counters to speed boost Yanma DO have reliable recovery and ARE good, Porygon has recover, traces the speed boost and can sweep on its own in return. Munchlax is really easy to fit onto defensive and balance teams, has reliable recovery in BJ recycle or evio rest talk. Those are just some realistic options for defensive / balanced / bulky offense teams (along with MUH Archen, possibly muh gligar, mantyke, Lickitung). The reality is, teams that have a solid defensive backbone don't really struggle at all vs. speed boost Yanma. Against offensive teams, Yanma does fair way better, and I'm not denying it will cleaned weakened teams, but when you see (Speed Boost) Yanma on the opponents team, it isn't that hard to figure out, oh I have to conserve my Pawniard, or oh Chinchou needs to be kept relatively healthy till they decide to send it out, or Magnemite or Murkrow or w/e you have that Yanma can't beat 1v1 (which should be more than one thing unless your team is not good). The reality is Yanma requires a pretty weakened team to clean, not as weak as other cleaners, but pretty weak in the grand scheme of things. In my opinion the speed boost set is really good, but not so powerful that it restricts team building or centralizes the meta game very severely, so what if it revenge kills a lot of things it isn't breaking the meta by picking off weakened pokemon after they kill something on your team.

And I get what your saying that "a definite list of counters is vague", but I expanded on it with examples of (effective) pokemon, so I don't think my post was really the correct target of your rant (at least my checks / counters were more concrete than "durr Stealth Rock weak"). I personally think you really overestimate speed boost Yanma's abilities, because although it does its job extremely well (late game cleaner) it is offset by the fact that it has enough defensive counters and offensive checks that it really requires quite a bit of team support to facilitate it's clean (enough that other cleaners are comparable in effectiveness in the meta).

For example, counters have very little to do with Yanma's incredible revenge killing potential (outspeeds basically all Scarfers after a Protect). So yea, I agree that counters aren't irrelevant (unless they suck) but they are not the only thing to base a decision on.

Of course they aren't the *only* thing to base a decision on (although it is pretty important to consider) and that analyzing how it plays in game is also extremely important. But does something being able to revenge kill a variety things really make it broken, I don't think that is a property that makes a pokemon broken.

Once again the above was somewhat irrelevant as Compound Eyes Hypnosis does centralize the meta, and force you to run less efficient things than you otherwise would (Porygon no longer even checks, Munchlax HAS to run rest talk, Gligar loses still without Yanma having to use a dumb move, etc.). Plus Hypnosis abuses U-turn so well it is ridiculous, allowing your team to gain ridiculous amounts of momentum.

The other thing I was referring to the line Prem bolded in response to my first post on this page, which is what your second part referred to originally.

 

[An-94]

Where I agree with the premise of your "rant". I also find your arguments towards yanma being not broken are flawed. As shown earlier, yanma has average bulk or at least enough to take some priority hits and come back to life with berry juice. yanma's typing is also not bad, as even its Ceyes sets seemingly inability to u-turn pivot in theory, is actually disproved by well done practice. It can ev itself to be 2HKOed by stealth rocks or not just to preserve preference, and defog users, while they don't synergize well with each other defensively, offensively gligar and yanma force a lot of switches and get defog in nicely with that momentum grabbing u-turn. Also speed boost is only for sweeper sets, and ceyes has been found to be more consistent, as it has that nice 20 speed tier that means only choice scarfers can come in and take it out with its "frail" defenses aside from the rare 20 speeders like it. Also yanma can only check other sweepers if it has protect or is already in with speed boost, plus most sweepers run sub/priority this gen so mons like gligar and pawniard are either resistant to bug buzz which bypasses sub or just kill it. But yes it is weak without LO or even with it considering steel types wall it without hp ground.

well every poke comes back to life with berry juice, even the pokes that like to abuse sturdy with it or want a free turn to set up, berry juice is something else that should be on the suspect list, anyway with stealth rock up, enough pressure on their defogger, and the right team Yanma really isn't a problem, and I dont stick my teaams with 4 yanma checks and 2 tangs checks, my team building isn't effected by yanma, cos honestly If you're not running priority, SR and at least 1 special wall already then idk wtf you're doing in LC LOL im just being honest #DrakeVoice. The biggest problem yanma creates, would be with that Hypno compound set, THAT set literally has no counters just checks, even checks are put to sleep, but now for the downfall of that set, Hypno can still miss and if SR IS up then you lose ur berry juice meaning if u miss that hypno you lose your yanma cos yanma CANT take a hit, and lol evioliteyanmawhoevendoesthatwtfislife, I honestly don't see how yanma is broken build your team correctly and it wont give you that much trouble, yanmas 20 base speed is tied with elekid and that fossil, who can come in and counter ANY set that isn't compound hypno, he resists his STABS and even if its a sub set u can just voltswitch or u could stone edge wit the bird to break the sub and then Kill yanma, yanms frail ass "comes back to life" with berry juice so what would bulkyer pokes do? it's all about how u handle ur team and how u take threats into account. Tangela is broken fuck him his mother and his house ban him

 

[Electrolyte]

I would just like to note that people should stop describing Yanma's Speed Tier like something that's ordinary an easy to outspeed / tie with regular Pokemon because obviously it's not. Let's not forget that the Speed Boost set exists and is impossible to outspeed unless you catch it early with an excessively fast Choice Scarf user that you'd typically need nowhere else, and the Compound Eyes set still reaches 20 Spe and enough power to OHKO or 2HKO like the 3 other barely viable Pokemon that are only able to tie with it.

No, Yanma's Speed is not managable, and is one of the main reasons why we are suspecting it in the first place. We need to realize this before any further discussion can be made.

 

[prem]

well every poke comes back to life with berry juice, even the pokes that like to abuse sturdy with it or want a free turn to set up, berry juice is something else that should be on the suspect list, anyway with stealth rock up, enough pressure on their defogger, and the right team Yanma really isn't a problem, and I dont stick my teaams with 4 yanma checks and 2 tangs checks, my team building isn't effected by yanma, cos honestly If you're not running priority, SR and at least 1 special wall already then idk wtf you're doing in LC LOL im just being honest #DrakeVoice. The biggest problem yanma creates, would be with that Hypno compound set, THAT set literally has no counters just checks, even checks are put to sleep, but now for the downfall of that set, Hypno can still miss and if SR IS up then you lose ur berry juice meaning if u miss that hypno you lose your yanma cos yanma CANT take a hit, and lol evioliteyanmawhoevendoesthatwtfislife, I honestly don't see how yanma is broken build your team correctly and it wont give you that much trouble, yanmas 20 base speed is tied with elekid and that fossil, who can come in and counter ANY set that isn't compound hypno, he resists his STABS and even if its a sub set u can just voltswitch or u could stone edge wit the bird to break the sub and then Kill yanma, yanms frail ass "comes back to life" with berry juice so what would bulkyer pokes do? it's all about how u handle ur team and how u take threats into account. Tangela is broken fuck him his mother and his house ban him

elekid and voltorb (not some fossil) CANNOT come into the speed boost set either though. the speed boost should be running HP ground so clearly if they come in on any move they will take at least 30-60% and then yanma is faster because of speed boost then they all die to HP ground. how does that logic work at all. while it sounds like you are kinda arguing against yanma being broken, apparently you said its broken so ill leave the rest of it alone because you agree lol