TANGELA AND YANMA ARE BANNED

[Electrolyte]

... i dont care if yanmas speed was +999999999 it still gets smashed wide open by a fire punch if it misses that hypnosis, same thing with elekid hitting it with a tbolt and archen stone edging him, screw his speed, his speed only mattters when ur vsing non counters who would try to revenge u with scarfs, prioirty(which is why berry juice is the item of choice) Like I said, should that hypnosis miss, or should you have SR up yanmas rampage will be stopped short, and honestly, why not just ban compound eyes then, fuck it, then yanma wont be a problem and everyone'll have to use wide lense for their sleeping faggatoryness. Fuck it lets do that lolz

Bolded parts are problematic in my eyes.

Unfortunately, Elekid isn't even the slightest bit reliable of a check because LO Timid Bug Buzz OHKOs it most of the time. It flat out loses to any Speed Boost set and loses to Compound Eyes most of the time. Hypnosis isn't even a factor here because nobody is going to waste their sleep on a Pokemon that can just be OHKOd right there.

Priority is no longer a reliable way to beat Yanma at all, even if it has Life Orb. Yanma resists Fighting-type priority to the max and doesn't really give two shits about anything else- Krow Sucker can be stalled with Protect, Med / Foo Fake Out doesn't work an is cockblocked by Protect, LO Med Bullet Punch barely 2HKOs, and so does AJet Tirt's. Ice Shard is basically nonexistent with Sneasel's ban, and Shellder can't OHKO anyway. You can't bet on priority to beat Yanma, as it will still probably take down some of your mons before it gets KOd itself.


Your list of requirements in order to beat Yanma that I bolded is truthfully short and obviously unreliable. Treecko already explained in his post earlier that relying on keeping SR up to counter Yanma is a terrible strategy and simply does not suffice. Defog is literally EVERYWHERE and I can guarantee that Yanma will have its way if you rely on Stealth Rock. You also mention Hypnosis missing, which is something I've seen other people mention. Even on Speed Boosting sets, Hypnosis still has a theoretical 60% chance of connecting, meaning that IF matches go down to sleep hitting, you will LOSE 1 battle out of five MORE than you win. That doesn't prove that Yanma isn'g broken; quite frankly, it's the other way around, as Hypnosis guards almost any attempt to block the Speed Boosting set.

With Compound Eyes, it's even worse. With Conpound Eyes, Hypnosis's accuracy is boosted to 74%, which is even more reliable than Focus Blast. Admittedly it's definitely not as reliable as Spore but theoretically if you rely on a Hypno miss you're losing 3/4 of the time. I don't understand how that proves that Yanma is balanced at all.

Honestly everything you're saying is convincing me more that Yanma deserves a ban.

 

[An-94]

elekid and voltorb (not some fossil) CANNOT come into the speed boost set either though. the speed boost should be running HP ground so clearly if they come in on any move they will take at least 30-60% and then yanma is faster because of speed boost then they all die to HP ground. how does that logic work at all. while it sounds like you are kinda arguing against yanma being broken, apparently you said its broken so ill leave the rest of it alone because you agree lol

I'm not saaying it's not strong, broken? hardly, most people like it or not are running Bug Jizz Air slash Hypno and u turn/Sub I honestly have not seen any HP ground variants, and even if they are running that, things like lickytongue and Munchlax love coming in on the speed boost sets that arent running sub and have hypno making the match up in favor of Licky, or Munch who can easily take an HP and shrug it off and threaten with the STAB body slam, which of course lets be honest yanma is scared shitless of cos he honestly doesnt wanna be paraed, or the fire punch.

 

[kingmidas]

First off, don't generalize, some of us want tang to be banned yanma to be banned both or neither please don't make it seem like there is no reason to discuss this besides you stating your opinionated and ill informed responses. A tier will always have broken mons and balanced mons, not banning certain mons is redundant as your allowing stronger mons to be free while the weaker but still broken mons have no space to show how overpowering they can be so we can make the metagame balanced. Making a tier fun isn't just for our own pleasure, its for new players coming in and for everyone to enjoy it, sure we'll look back at gen 5 and say murkrow was broken but we never suspected it, but that just makes us more eager to suspect properly deemed overpowered, and not have a relapse.

 

[gali]

Ban tang, leave yanma its mangable if u cant deal with it ur bad, all these "good" players im hearing about who know how to use and abuse yanma dont know how to kill it? wtf is going on here?????????????

It's not the fact that "we don't know how to kill it" - On the contrary, Yanma is not that hard to kill. What makes Yanma broken is its access to a reliable sleep move along with the highest speed in the tier, allowing it to reliably cripple something that gives your team trouble and basically guaranteeing the win. The fact that people are running Sleep Talk on things that don't run Rest just to check Yanma just goes to show how centralizing and broken it is.

 

[An-94]

It's not the fact that "we don't know how to kill it" - On the contrary, Yanma is not that hard to kill. What makes Yanma broken is its access to a reliable sleep move along with the highest speed in the tier, allowing it to reliably cripple something that gives your team trouble and basically guaranteeing the win. The fact that people are running Sleep Talk on things that don't run Rest just to check Yanma just goes to show how centralizing and broken it is.

So in a tier, with Foongus, Yanma, Gastly, and inkay, you wouldnt run sleep talk on munchlax to make sure things like that cant sleep and cripple you????? i dont understand whats going on here I wouldnt saay running sleep talk w.o rest is horrid, what else can munch lax run that's even effective, besides body slam whirlwind and fire punch lol what does the 4th slot HAVE to be that sleep talk cant be considered?

 

[gali]

So in a tier, with Foongus, Yanma, Gastly, and inkay, you wouldnt run sleep talk on munchlax to make sure things like that cant sleep and cripple you????? i dont understand whats going on here I wouldnt saay running sleep talk w.o rest is horrid, what else can munch lax run that's even effective, besides body slame whirlwind and fire punch lol what does the 4th slot HAVE to be that sleep talk cant be considered?

The reason Sleep Talk isn't a good idea without Rest is because of how situational it is. If you're team is THAT weak to sleep that you have to do that, you have a problem. Also, Munchlax pretty much needs ice punch to deal with Gligar, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[An-94]

Okay so fire punch or ice punch depends on the coverage you need, Sleep talk is great for pokes who can be sleep fodder, how isn't your team weak to sleep if you don't have insomnia user vital spirit or a grass poke to take the spore/sleep powder?

 

[Aladyyn]

Munchlax is much better off running Recycle, it gets worn down too easily without recovery. Meaning your Munchlax can't even check Yanma reliably, because it can always just U-Turn out and do chip damage that adds up as the match goes, rendering Munchlax unable to actually check Yanma as the battle goes on longer. This also means you lose momentum every time you switch your Munchlax into Yanma.
I also don't think that many mons can actually afford to run Sleep Talk over a more useful move without losing a lot of coverage/utility. Feel free to prove me wrong on this though.

 

[An-94]

Munchlax is much better off running Recycle, it gets worn down too easily without recovery. Meaning your Munchlax can't even check Yanma reliably, because it can always just U-Turn out and do chip damage that adds up as the match goes, rendering Munchlax unable to actually check Yanma as the battle goes on longer. This also means you lose momentum every time you switch your Munchlax into Yanma.
I also don't think that many mons can actually afford to run Sleep Talk over a more useful move without losing a lot of coverage/utility. Feel free to prove me wrong on this though.

ya U-turn I love getting more chances to get SR up since ur priceless defogger just took em away the battle will be an endless cycle till the SR poke dies or the fogger dies

 

[Celever]

Nope, munch lax is 1 of many special walls that people put on their teams, i.e chinchou, Vullaby, Foongus, but okay lol

252+ SpA Life Orb Yanma Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanma Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 9-13 (39.1 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanma Air Slash vs. 124 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 18-26 (72 - 104%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[atomicllamas]

ya U-turn I love getting more chances to get SR up since ur priceless defogger just took em away the battle will be an endless cycle till the SR poke dies or the fogger dies

So of all your posts this is the one I have the biggest problem with in this thread, as it really shows that you fundamentally misunderstand how the Hypnosis + U-turn set works. It goes like this: you have pokemon X who is weak to my Yanma, but you have Munchlax to switch in on my Yanma, Munchlax takes the Hypnosis and you say cool, they can't abuse sleep anymore let me get up rocks. You switch to Archen, "the foes Yanma used U-turn, Yanma returned to its trainer, Trainer Atomicllamas sends out Chinchou." Now you are screwed, as I get a free Hydro-pump, or if you lack any ground type to absorb volt-switch, I can volt switch to either kill Archen or if you switch I can send in another pokemon to counter that one. The combination of U-turn and an accurate Hypnosis gains a ridiculous amount of momentum that pretty much forces you to make perfect predicts or fall behind in the kill count. And if you decide to keep Munchlax in, Timburr / Mienfoo / Tits say hi, and you can't let Munchlax die, cause then the cycle just repeats itself.

 

[Celever]

well thanks for showing us you could bring up useless calcs when needed, your name isn't exactly the most defining now is it... I said they were special walls never said anything about how they fair against yanma lold

This thread is ABOUT Yanma, if you want to suspect Munchlax then bring that up at a later date since right now your posts seem to be arguing that Munchlax is amazing/broken/counter to Yanma. If he counters Yanma, one counter means nothing which is what both of my posts confirmed. Also if you could read you would notice there is an "e" in the word Celever, so it could be the most defining word in the world.

 

[Ray Jay]

An-94 my man, I feel like you are, like most people who are newer to the forums and suspect debates on them, slightly misguided about a few things. For one, simply replying to every person in the thread in multiple posts doesn't make your point seem viable, it makes it seem like you are on the defensive without a singular solid argument (which you are) and wanting attention more than a certain tiering decision. That's mostly my opinion though, so take it or leave it. I also giggled at the statement that we should "leave yanma its mangable if u cant deal with it ur bad" [sic]. Whether or not something is broken has absolutely nothing to do with player skill level. In fact, a broken Pokemon makes it more difficult to actually deduce player skill level from the ladder as people using the broken Pokemon (not necessarily the most skilled players) will succeed while others will not succeed as much. In this post, I'm going to argue for why Yanma is indeed broken and expand on the suspect system we are using this gen, because although I think it's a different topic, I do believe it's one worth defending to people that are newer to the system if only for clarification.

Yanma is assuredly overpowered in the LC metagame. At its base, that word just means it "defeats or overcomes opponents with superior strength", and while that is not necessarily the typical definition used for competitive purposes, it actually applies to Yanma quite well. Here are some objective things, just looking at Yanma's stats / typing, that could cause you to deduce this.

20 Speed: 20 Speed is not inherently broken, it's what the Pokemon can do with it. First, let's just compare Yanma to the other 20 Speed Pokemon: Diglett- since it cannot run an Adamant nature if it wants to hit 20 Speed, Diglett hits a maximum Attack stat of 15 with a base stat of 45. This sounds fine by LC standards, but compare it to Yanma: Yanmaactually has a higher base Atk than Diglett at 65, and that's not even to mention the fact that it's Special Attack reaches 14, just one point lower than Diglett's max offensive prowess, without any investment. In fact, no Pokemon in the 20 Speed tier has any offensive stat that is greater than 65 (Elekid ties it), which is Yanma's weaker physical side. In other words, Yanma's offensive prowess taking only stats into account puts the other 20 Speed Pokemon to shame. Yanma has natural bulk of 23 / 11 / 11, meaning Yanma does not excel in any particular defense but is well rounded- a trait no other 20 Speed Pokemon has. Diglett has BASE 10 HP, and although Elekid and Voltorb both have a passable SpD of 12, their lower HP than Yanma puts their bulk all around much lower. Yanma is therefore, without contest, the strongest and bulkiest of the 20 Speed Pokemon.

Bug / Flying Type: Bug types are desirable as some of the strongest Pokemon in the metagame are weak to Fighting-types, and Yanma's typing actually only makes it BETTER against Fighting-types. Yanma has a BST of 390 (and as shown above, those stats are in all the right places), while most Bug-types sit in the low - mid 200s, with the notable exceptions of Dwebble (low 300s) and Larvesta (360). BST is not enough to simply break a Pokemon, but the offensive prowess combined with the Speed of Yanma are definitively unrivaled not even just among Bug-types, but among the entire tier. Stealth Rock is a downfall, yes, but even broken Pokemon can have their cons. One entry hazard that became exceedingly less common this generation is not enough to justify something staying in the metagame, but if it is, I'm excited to see Ho-Oh in LC here pretty soon.

The final argument against Yanma is my original definition: "defeats or overcomes opponents with superior strength". One thing is Yanma has an accurate Sleep-inducing move 2 attacking options with side effects that help it do just that: overcome the opponent. One thing about Rest Sleep Talk Munchlax is that you actually gain a lot from putting it to sleep, as it can no longer use Rest to heal itself; the rest of the team can then find a way to muscle through it. So the proposed "counter" to Yanma is actually taken advantage of by Yanma, especially U-turn variants which will also deal a notable bit upon switching out. Other good examples are all of the other walls you mentioned, such as Vullaby, where it takes just one SpD drop from Bug Buzz or a flinch from Air Slash to be enough to cause it to be "overcome" by Yanma (also note Yanma can put Vullaby to sleep). This is the problem with Yanma (especially Compound Eyes): you simply cannot prepare well enough to face it. As things that are "counters" necessitate you to either give up momentum at best or simply lose to the Speed Boost variants late at worst.

NOW, I'd like to briefly touch on the suspect system, because it seems a few people here are slightly misunderstood. Tiering was done in a very, VERY problematic way in Gen V in that it never remained constant. At one point, one suspect test banned an unprecedented four things in Gligar, Meditite, Carvanha, and Misdreavus at one time, which led to the metagame basically collapsing for a few months while people actually tried to figure out what to use. This unprecedented event was followed by another; amidst a seemingly balanced metagame 6 months later, our LC tiering leader simply decided to unban Murkrow, Misdreavus, and Gligar. This, as intended, shook up LC, but steered the tiering process amiss forever as we were only to wonder what would've happened had the system continued regularly. Put simply, it made sense to TRY AGAIN this gen. Gen V had the stigma of being balanced but boring; we want to see if we can attain a metagame that is balanced and fun. The easiest way to do this is not start with last gen's banlist and try unbanning things (that's quite, QUITE difficult to do in a manner that is objective and healthy for a metagame, as people overuse the thing we unban), but to allow all Pokemon + Berry Juice and see which ones our system agrees with the last on being broken and which ones we find are not. What makes it different are two things: the ladderers are not the ones voting entirely as there is a council (this is important as it prevents people with agendas from having votes such as preventing avid ladderers from protecting their favorite broken strategy or banning ones they simply don't like) while also providing some means of consistency. Perhaps you are correct an and we will reach the same conclusions as last gen. I would say it is highly unlikely, and if even one mon that was "broken" in last gen stays because we find it's fine in this one, we've attained a "better" metagame.

 

[Shouting]

I'm teetering on Yanma right now. There are good points on both sides. However, the main complaint I see is Hypnosis, which people think pushes Yanma over the "edge."

Now, sleep is nothing new obviously. In gen 5, the sleep mechanics were ridiculous and they were changed this gen. In gen 5 though, we had TWO 100% accurate sleep users with spore (I think compound eyes is like an 80% Hypnosis? Correct me if I'm wrong) in Foongus and Shroomish. No one called for these two to be banned. So what makes these two different?

On the basis of typing, Both Grass and Posion / Grass are both way better than Bug / Flying. Let's be honest and say even without stealth rock, Yanma has trouble switching into much of anything, because it really never carries eviolite. It may have a fighting type resistance, but you would have to crazy to switch it in on any Fighting type that isn't Croagunk(some are even hipster enough to carry Icy Wind)...SO many times people bring in their Yanma in on my Timburr just to get Ice Punched and die. Grass types are a bit more reliable switch ins, but right now the only Grass type is Tangela which often carries Ancient Power / Sleep Powder so Yanma has difficulty there. Besides Tangela, Shroomish will carry Spore, Foongus sometimes carries Sludge Bomb which will do a lot, and Spore is obviously a threat. Even Lileep has Acientpower. Yanma is fighting a losing battle so far.

Next Checks and Counters:
Take a look at a list of checks and counters for:

Yanma

Koffing
Archen
Spritzee
Swirlx
Gligar
Grimer
Mantyke
Frillish
Aron
Ponyta
Growlithe
Lickitung
Magnemite
Nosepass
Numel
Tentacool
Skrelp
Trubbish
Misdreavus
Munchlax
Fletchling
Honedge
Vulpix
Voltorb ( digging deep )
Goomy
Porygon

Now look at Foongus for example:

Foongus

Vulpix
Growlithe
Bronzor
Pawniard
Ponyta
Natu
Flecthling
Grimer
Stunky
Croagunk
Murkrow
Mantyke
Drifloon
Honedge
Vullaby
Abra
Magnemite
Meditite
Larvesta
Skorupi
Vennipede
Shelmet (not really sure on this, too lazy to do clacs)
Budew
Taillow
Swablu (digging deep here)
Gligar
Tryunt
Dratini
Axew
Munchlax
Lickitung
Probably a handful more I am missing

So those are rough lists, I maybe missed a few things but its just general. Now my point about sleep:
The reason no one complained about Foongus last gen (or even this gen) is that Foongus has a bunch of checks and counters, so it really doesn't matter what it put to sleep, because usually you had more than 1 thing on your team that could take it on. If you look at the checks and counters of Foongus, You can easily put two of these on the same team. Like I see a lot of teams (more than I should) that contain both Meditite and Gligar. There are also quite a lot of other common threats also.

The same logic can be applied to Yanma. The list isn't as large, but there is still a lot of diversity in this list. In fact, some members of the lists overlap.
I think people are disappointed that you can't carry a team consisting of Meditite-Gligar-Carvanha-Yanma-Slowpoke-Pawniard (etc.) and not cover Yanma. It is evident that people are using these dominant threats, losing, and complaining. In fact, most Yanma sweeps I watch are usually against similar teams as the above.

Now you may think " I can only pick from that list!!! It limits Teambuilding!! etc. etc )
But there is another factor, and that is priority.

You obviously don't need priority to take out Foongus or Shroomish, its a nonissue. Ice Shard, Fake Out, Sucker Punch etc. are all annoying for Yanma. Worst off, Yanma doesn't really have any way to avoid Sucker Punch since I don't see that many carrying Substitute. Also status, Thunder Wave wrecks Yanma.


So yeah, I'm not sure what to do. I personally am never swept by it, (because I always pick from the above, it really isn't as hard as people think) but if people want to get rid of it, its fine by me.

Also @ the above, If I switch into Munchlax and it gets hit by Hypnosis, why would I switch out? If that happens to me, I'm staying in and burning off sleep. Yanma really can't do anything to Munchlax that would make me switch out.

 

[prem]

The difference between Yanma and the spore users though is its speed and power WITH that reliable sleep. sure you could sleep something with foongus, but what would it do afterwards? it definately couldnt outspeed the entire metagame and hit it with amazing offensive STABs that help it sweep with secondary effects. Ive never been swept by a Yanma either, but thats not really good reasoning. so for the basis of typing, sure grass / posion is better defensively, but offensively it is MUCH worse. Yanma is an offensive threat beacuse its stabs do so much for it offensively. Shroomish and Foongus just kinda sit there and try not to die. they did it effecitvely but they also both lost to murkrow who could come in for free. murkrow really cant come in for free on yanma because a) stabs kick its ass b) its slower so it has to sucker punch and risk a sub.

The best yanma set is IMO is the subhynosis set, and is the main reason it should be banned. i see if often, and honestly it completely goes against your priority point and status point. you cant do anything to a yanma behind a sub, and with 6 subs its going to stick around a long time. behind a sub you are literally screwed because it is almost guaranteed to 2hko anything you are going to stick around in on and anything with priority. actually it OHKOs most htings withpriority besides pawniard who i still beat with yanma because you can just predict well with sub.

also i hardly switch yanma in on fighting mons unless its obvious its coming. its 100% obvious a mach punch is coming in from a timburr if i have vanha out, so then i will switch. also most timburr spam knock off so idk why i couldnt bring it in anwayy.


man my posts are so unorganized lol

 

[Shouting]

Bug and Flying isn't stellar coverage by any means. There are a lot of things in LC that can tank them because Air Slash isn't the most powerful move around.

Just because Yanma CAN use Subsititute doesn't mean Sucker Punch doesn't make it good against Yanma. I mean Sucker Punch is a major thorn to Speed Boost Yanma.

There are also other threats that aren't bothered by Hypnosis. Aron, for example, can sit there and Yanma can hit it all it wants with Bug Buzz and if it wakes up it just dies. If it U-turns, switch it out, you burned off at least one if not two turns of sleep right there. Even asleep, Aron can come in again on Yanma. Also Yanma is FASTER than anything that will come in, so you just lost a turn of sleep right there if you don't use it on the switch or if you miss.

Foongus and Shroomish don't have to be offensive to be good. Yanma is offensive, Foongus and Shroomish are not. Just because Foongus can't sweep teams 6-0 doesn't mean it isn't good. It's a reliable check to faries, water types, Grass types. It's different.

You can say "you only switch in on mach punch" but did you know that Air Slash that isn't Life Orb doesn't even KO Timburr? You then die to Ice Punch.
And if not Fighting moves, what then? Ground? Yes, good luck switching into Gligar, the most common user of Earthquake.

I don't think it's really as broken as everyone makes it out to be, but it can be annoying for some teams.

 

[atomicllamas]

Shouting I'm not quite sure if you were referring my post when you said

Also @ the above, If I switch into Munchlax and it gets hit by Hypnosis, why would I switch out? If that happens to me, I'm staying in and burning off sleep. Yanma really can't do anything to Munchlax that would make me switch out.

but that seems to be the only post you could be replying to. Anyways, I was specifically addressing the AN-94 post about how U-turn gives you an a time slot to set up Stealth Rock with a real game situation, and showing that it does not give you such an opportunity. If I were playing I would also leave in Munchlax, however, that allows Yanma to U-turn to something else like Mienfoo / Timburr / Meditite, this still gains momentum for my team because if you sack Munchlax I can just sleep something else, and I just killed Munchlax while taking little (if any) damage, while if you switch I get free damage on something else.

I mean if you are going to respond to a post please at least look at the context / read the whole thing (because I also addressed what happens if you leave Munchlax in on Yanma's U-turn in that post -_-).

You can say "you only switch in on mach punch" but did you know that Air Slash that isn't Life Orb doesn't even KO Timburr? You then die to Ice Punch.

196+ Atk Timburr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanma: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Berry Juice Yanma not only wins 1v1 regardless, it does so without taking any damage (Air slash --> Timburr uses Ice Punch --> Yanma regains B Juice HP --> Timburr dies to Air Slash).

 

[Shouting]

I did not say Timburr beats Yanma 1v1, I said Yanma cannot switch into Timburr at all, which defeats the point of its fighting resist really. Mienfoo can do the same with Stone Edge or just U-turn.. And if there is stealth rock in play?

It is also worth noting that the most notable users of defog, Vullaby, Gligar, and Archen, all share at least one if not two or three weaknesses with Yanma, making it quite easy to take advantage of it. Magnet Rise Magnemite can take on all four, in fact, Magnet Rise Nosepass can even set up stealth rock on them and kill them all off with a combination of Stone Edge and Hidden Power Ice.

that allows Yanma to U-turn to something else like Mienfoo / Timburr / Meditite, this still gains momentum for my team because if you sack Munchlax I can just sleep something else, and I just killed Munchlax while taking little (if any) damage, while if you switch I get free damage on something else.

Even if you have to switch out Munchlax like that, it isn't a bad scenario at all. Even asleep, Munchlax can still switch in on Yanma because it has such high special defense. The same with Aron, they take little from its attacks so they can afford to switch in when asleep and burn off turns of sleep. Yanma is also faster than those two, so you can't even predict/guess when they will wake up and put them back to sleep again. Even with Hypnosis, they still pretty much win.

 

[chimp]

I think that everything that one could say has been said. But I just want to add one thing. Broken and Overpowered are not synonymous. Yanma is not too strong. 75 base special attack is good; but not great. It is not going to be 6-0ing teams too often; contrary to Tangela who can murder everything with LO solarbeam and leafstorm.

Whether or not we should consider something broken, in my opinion, depends on how well it can deal with its checks and counters. See Sneasel, who can knock off their item and finish the KO with its blazing speed and overwhelming power. See Tangela, who KOs virtually the whole tier and can put enemies to sleep. Then there is Yanma. There are some pokemon who Yanma can't beat; thats a given. But the ability to put its check to sleep, then U-turn, coupled with its amazing speed basically means that Yanma will almost always escape the battle before it's check can do anything to it. Of course, Pokemon is a game of numbers, and there is always the chance Hypnosis will miss, but the odds are still in Yanma's favor. For that reason, I think Yanma should be banned.

 

[Expulso]

Recently, I've been testing Growth Tangela in conjunction with Vulpix's Sun. At +2, I 2HKO'd Vullaby with SolarBeam, even with an Eviolite. It is nearly impossible to outspeed; infact, the only thing I found that can reliably is Chlorophyll Deerling, which is — you guessed it — physical, and Tangela has a helluvalot defense. It's insane. Nothing's switching in to SolarBeam without a 4x resist, and most things that have that are hit at least neutrally by HP Fire.

I also used HypnoSub Yanma for a time. It is ridiculously easily to Hypnosis someting, set up a Substitute, and get 2 hits on whatever switches in, or 1 + a switch. 20 Speed allows it to outspeed almost everything in the metagame, and it can beat those with whom it ties. HypnoTurn Yanma is also incredibly potent, as it can U-Turn away from the switch that commonly occurs after a Hypnosis.
PS: CEyes means no stupid Air Slash misses.

Overall, I feel that both of these Pokemon are powerful, fast, and effective enough to merit a ban. If you feel that they don't deserve a ban, I'd love to debate it with you. Thank you! :)

 

[Sergetank]

Let's all take a moment from these great, well written walls, and hear what I have to say:

least yanma doesn't have hurricane.

Other than that, anything else I could say has been said, often 1000x better. Tangela's OP ( I tried a life orb leaf storm set myself to see how it was; Tangela just dropped pokemon like flies, often going 3 - 4 mons deep before finally being worn down but thats cuz I'm a bad. ) Yanma... I dunno. I'm leaning towards yes. I don't like it, the hypnoeyes set is annoying. But I try to restrain myself from judging from simply annoying alone; I've not been 6-0'd by Yanma, but I've seen it be a very useful asset to the team quite often.

Yeah I dunno. Sorry, wish I could say more on Yanma, but Tangela's definitely gotta get out. As Ray Jay said in the LC Smogcast, or something really close:

"Tangela's not even cute, it shouldn't be allowed in Little Cup."

 

[ryan]

It is also worth noting that the most notable users of defog, Vullaby, Gligar, and Archen, all share at least one if not two or three weaknesses with Yanma, making it quite easy to take advantage of it. Magnet Rise Magnemite can take on all four, in fact, Magnet Rise Nosepass can even set up stealth rock on them and kill them all off with a combination of Stone Edge and Hidden Power Ice.

The best Defog user to pair with Yanma will almost always be Gligar. Despite its shared Ice weakness, Gligar is neutral to Rock and can come in a shitton of times throughout the battle to get rid of Stealth Rock. It's not "quite easy to take advantage of" because every team with these two will naturally have something to cover up this shared Ice weakness. On one of my teams with both of these Pokemon, I have Magnemite, a solid answer to Snover, and pretty much every Ice-type move is really predictable and easy enough to play around.

Magnet Rise Magnemite is an inferior set right now because despite its ability to counter Yanma and Gligar, it already has to choose four moves out of Volt Switch, Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, Recycle, Hidden Power Ice, and Hidden Power Ground. You're just adding yet another move to compete with already limited slots. Chances are, you're missing out on Recycle, which allows Magnemite to come in throughout the battle and check these Pokemon multiple times WITHOUT resorting to Magnet Rise, and either Flash Cannon or Thunderbolt, which means you're relying solely on one STAB to wallbreak. Magnet Rise Nosepass is garbage and shouldn't even be accounted for.

Even if you have to switch out Munchlax like that, it isn't a bad scenario at all. Even asleep, Munchlax can still switch in on Yanma because it has such high special defense. The same with Aron, they take little from its attacks so they can afford to switch in when asleep and burn off turns of sleep. Yanma is also faster than those two, so you can't even predict/guess when they will wake up and put them back to sleep again. Even with Hypnosis, they still pretty much win.

This is why I like U-turn so much more than Substitute. Even with Substitute, Pokemon such as these, Archen, and more can still repeatedly switch in to wall your attacks. With U-turn, you don't get that luxury. You'll have burned off a sleep turn and completely lost momentum, freeing up a switch into any Fighting-type which can take out every Yanma check or Bunnelby or Murkrow or (insert strong wallbreaker that can destroy your team given a free switch). You can act like having a wall for Yanma is enough to handle it, but in practice, that's just wrong. Yanma can incapacitate its best check on the opposing team and easily open up a sweep later in on the match after your opponent is forced to death fodder something and can only realistically choose their sleeping Pokemon for that situation. On paper, yes, Yanma can be walled, but in practice, a sleep-inducing move that is more accurate than Sleep Powder, fantastic Speed and offenses, and U-turn make "checking Yanma" far more difficult than what a theorymon-er can ever imagine.

 

[DTC]

I can understand why people do not believe Yanma is broken. It simply does not have the huge damage output as some other Pokemon have. However, it is broken for different reasons, which I will detail. Some other posters have illustrated this concept as well, and hopefully I will be able to explain in a way that will make it a bit more clear.

Whatever job Yanma wants to do, it can do it very consistently. Hypnosis + U-turn has an incredibly easy time obtaining momentum, as it can effortlessly sleep 90% of the tier, and then U-turn out to an appropriate counter. There's not much you can do in this situation; whether you stay in or switch to a different Pokemon, the team with Yanma will always have the upper hand. Even if you switched into a Pokemon with Sleep Talk on the turn Yanma used Hypnosis, you're still dependent on the opponent not having a Pokemon that can beat it, and you are still at the mercy of Sleep Talk choosing the move you want it to choose.

So basically, Yanma has not only made a Pokemon crippled pretty hard with Hypnosis, it has obtained momentum too. A Pokemon hit with Hypnosis isn't useless, but it means you will either have to waste some turns doing nothing for the Pokemon to wake up, be at the mercy of Sleep Talk, or cure status with one of the few clerics in the tier... but so what if the Pokemon slept woke up? This just means Yanma can obtain momentum again. As I have stated earlier, the process of sleeping and then U-turn is pretty effortless for the Yanma user, as Yanma outspeeds or ties with everything unboosted. This means that you are either forced to deal with a Pokemon being crippled with sleep until Yanma dies, or you keep on giving Yanma free opportunities to obtain momentum.

Now of course just because it can obtain momentum does not necessarily make it broken, but the fact that it can do it effortlessly and multiple times throughout the match, is. Of course, Yanma is far from a useless Pokemon outside of just obtaining momentum -- while we agree it is not the hardest hitter, it still hits decently hard, and it can revenge offensive Pokemon pretty easily with that 20 Speed + decent offenses. This gives Yanma way too much utility, in my opinion.

Of course, that's not all. Hypnosis + Substitute gives Yanma a nice safety net for it to wreck havoc. It has been established that Yanma effortlessly puts things to sleep thanks to that 20 Speed, which is free opportunity to set up Substitute's. Of course Yanma is losing health every time it uses Substitute -- but it can Substitute 8 times before dying. This, plus Hypnosis, is what gives Yanma that safety net. If the Pokemon wakes up before Yanma kills it, Yanma can just sleep it again and then repeat the process, which it will have many opportunities to do. If you switched into a Sleep Talk Pokemon vs Yanma, the Sleep Talk Pokemon is, again, at the mercy of Sleep Talk rolls -- and not only that, you do not know when that Pokemon is going to wake up. That is yet another free turn Yanma gains, and it does not matter if it fails sometimes, because like I mentioned, Yanma has 8 opportunities. Once Yanma gets a Substitute up without it being damaged, Yanma has a fairly easy time breaking through, and can even rely on the 30% flinch chance from Air Slash to break through.

Hypnosis + U-turn and Hypnosis + Substitute, while a bit weak, give the Yanma user a ton of breathing room, while limiting the options of the person facing Yanma. This is what makes people feel Yanma is unfair, and I would agree with them -- Yanma is just way too consistent in what it does.

 

[Ray Jay]

Not trying to give fuel to the Yanma baiters or the Yanma haters, but the odds of hitting 8 Compound Eyes Hypnoses consecutively are just under 14%. Not what id call "reliable" longevity.

 

[DTC]

Not trying to give fuel to the Yanma baiters or the Yanma haters, but the odds of hitting 8 Compound Eyes Hypnoses consecutively are just under 14%. Not what id call "reliable" longevity.

Of course hitting 8 Hypnosis in a row has a very low chance, but it's not like you're ever going to have to use Hypnosis that many times. I was just stating that Yanma can use Substitute a lot without worrying about losing much health (+ hypnosis is yanma's "safety net"), which would make Yanma very easy to pick off with say priority.