TANGELA AND YANMA ARE BANNED

[tcr]

treeko was wrong about the hazard thing

Treecko is never wrong

Yanma doesnt restrict teambuilding the way tangela does, yes. However, restricting teambuilding isnt why people think its broken. People want it banned because sub+Hypnosis is uncompetitive, U-turn+Hypnosis is amazing, Yanma is THE definition of a late game cleaner, no priority ohkoes it, and its stabs are superdupet powerful.

 

[The Quasar]

That's a strange thing. The same calcs about priority and Yamna, tell me vice versa that'is not broken. Damages percentuage are quite significant IMHO. It's very strong, you have to consider carefully what he can do. But he stands for one in a eigth/twelfth problems that I have evaluated when I'm building a LC team.

Tangela never dies- it just comes in, kills things, and never dies.

Tangela is broken because is so easy to use like destructive , I think Yamna is not so decisive, even in Raseri's posted match, won mainly by Bunnaby. SR weakeness is real. And spinning (like BW LC) is not to easy, Defog seems but it requests constant attention from pokemon like Pawniard (above all). Finally, Yamna has his counter: Archen and Swirlix, for example or Chinchou Sleep Talk. That's no gimmick, are in our team. Even scarf Helioptile could be a good checker.
I repeat. Yamna is a great pokemon in XY LC. But it's like Mienfoo, Misdreavus, Murkrow in "old" BW. One of first-rate, not broken at all.

 

[gali]

Treecko is never wrong

Yanma doesnt restrict teambuilding the way tangela does, yes. However, restricting teambuilding isnt why people think its broken. People want it banned because sub+Hypnosis is uncompetitive, U-turn+Hypnosis is amazing, Yanma is THE definition of a late game cleaner, no priority ohkoes it, and its stabs are superdupet powerful.

This is not true. Fletchling's Acrobatics is a clean KO after Berry Juice is activated, and Yanma has nothing that can KO back. I'm also pretty sure Snover, Bunnelby, and Pawniard can KO, but I can't say for certain.

I'll update this post later with my thoughts on Tangela and Yanma.

 

[An-94]

Treecko is never wrong

Yanma doesnt restrict teambuilding the way tangela does, yes. However, restricting teambuilding isnt why people think its broken. People want it banned because sub+Hypnosis is uncompetitive, U-turn+Hypnosis is amazing, Yanma is THE definition of a late game cleaner, no priority ohkoes it, and its stabs are superdupet powerful.

Vital Spirit Elekid

 

[Aladyyn]

So you have to run vital spirit Elekid to counter Yanma? Thank you, I'm gonna start doing that.

On a serious note, what are you trying to say with this, An-74?

 

[reiku]

Elekid isnt the best example, it can be a good "check" because is speed tie between both but Bug Buzz does like 85% to Elekid.

Best counters are Munchlax restalk with fire punch, restalk Skrelp, Archen is probably the best tho, maybe Chinchou and restalk Lickytung.

Yanma is pretty good, but not broken like is Tangela, Yanma has counters and checks and is x4 to SR, isnt difficult put pressure in the opp's defoger if thats his strategy, Hypno isnt 100% and it can miss so isnt an argument to ban Yanma lol

 

[Heysup]

@ Yanma's SR weakness: Besides Treecko's point, keep in mind most people can just lead with Yanma because it beats basically every Pokemon that isn't immune to Hypnosis / bulky powerful sleep talker (which is a list of what, 4 viable Pokemon?)- which means SR is even less of an issue even coupled with Defog.

Also people posting things like "user X is wrong about Y" or "it has so many counters like x, y, and z" you need to back up your post with facts otherwise you are just talking out of your ass and usually wrong. It's not a good way to argue because once someone posts a response backed up you aren't actually arguing. For example:

An-94 suggests and is STILL standing by Meditite, Vullaby, and Vulpix (rofl?) as Tangela counters when they are all 1-2HKOed by almost all variants of Tangela. So... there's that.

An-94 suggests Vital Spirit Elekid as a counter to Yanma when all offensive variants are OHKOed by LO Bug Buzz (so obviously can't switch in) or brought down to LO KO range by Timid non LO Bug Buzz which Speed ties and can 2HKO anyway. That's probably the worst counter of all time and no thought was put into it.

Those points are not thought out and it keeps going. Like "Yanma dies to priority!1111" when...it doesn't and all of most of those Pokemon lose to Substitute Hypnosis straight up and none of them can't switch in.

 

[macle]

only doing tangela right now

1) Is Tangela broken?
Yes. The combination of its bulk and its offensive power is overwhelming. Taking shit like Blizzards from Snover and koing it back is just retarded. You can't even slowly take chunks off of it since it has Regenerator. Sun set is just unfair. It laughs at priority attacks you throw at it and just koes so many pokes. If it doesn't ko the pokemon, it can just sleep it and get the 2hko or switches out (which then allows it to recover HP).

2) Is Tangela making Little Cup not fun?
Yes. When my game plan for winning a match is just beating tangela, its not fun at all.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
I think its preventing more competitive tournament players from playing. LC is still bringing it a lot of people but I'd like to see more seasoned players start playing

 

[Raichy]

I think I will post here, after playing some match testing those two pokemon. Tangela, for sure is broken, maybe the one with Life Orb in sunny is worse than Regenerator, but both are still so good for the meta. Tangela can't be killed that easy, even without his item after a Knock Off, he can stay up to continue walling without saying that he can do a lot of damage and heal with giga drain and regenerator. The one with Chlorophyll is just dumb as fuck, I mean it is just thing of put sunny with Vulpix and then start to sweep without needed support or, even, predict because Solar Beam can 2HKO most of the metagame without problem If not 1HKO instead. Someone can't say that Chlorophyll Tangela is not broken because after some hit he can die with Life Orb recoil, because It is not that real, having his own way to heal like Synthesis or wisher support. The regenerator one can dealt even with the pokemon who can kill him because of sleep powder, and still do the enough damage to 2HKO most of the stuff of the current metagame.

Like Reiku said, Yanma isn't that broken, because he has a lot of counters such as Archen (maybe not If people start to use AncientPower but still doesn't 2HKO him If he enter in Bug Buzz or Air Slash and he can 1HKO back), Munchlax, Skrelp, Tentacool, Misdreavus can take a hit heal with Berry Juice and 1HKO back with Thunderbolt, Stealth Rock helps a lot to dealt with him because Meditite can 1HKO him with Bullet Punch after that, Chinchou in the same situation as Misdreavus If he doesn't have Giga Drain, Tirtouga and Dwebble win against him in 1vs1 against Life Orb set, etc. There are a lot of checks/counters and you only have to see the situation, all the pokemon that I said are common to be used in some teams and that is why It doesn't centralice at all, becase that pokemon will be used even If Yanma is banned. Don't ban this poke, imo.

 

[Heysup]

Like Reiku said, Yanma isn't that broken, because he has a lot of counters such as Archen (maybe not If people start to use AncientPower but still doesn't 2HKO him If he enter in Bug Buzz or Air Slash and he can 1HKO back), Munchlax, Skrelp, Tentacool, Misdreavus can take a hit heal with Berry Juice and 1HKO back with Thunderbolt, Stealth Rock helps a lot to dealt with him because Meditite can 1HKO him with Bullet Punch after that, Chinchou in the same situation as Misdreavus If he doesn't have Giga Drain, Tirtouga and Dwebble win against him in 1vs1 against Life Orb set, etc. There are a lot of checks/counters and you only have to see the situation, all the pokemon that I said are common to be used in some teams and that is why It doesn't centralice at all, becase that pokemon will be used even If Yanma is banned. Don't ban this poke, imo.

Just want to point out that besides Archen, Compoundeyes versions get by most of those Pokemon unless they are Sleep Talk, and really only Munchlax (EDIT: and apparently Skrelp) runs a "good" Sleep Talk set. I mean it can still technically beat Archen...but it's the best you can do really.

 

[Ray Jay]

Heysup I think after Raichy publicized his team Rest + Sleep Talk Skrelp is pretty quickly becoming the standard

I think Yanma has some counters but "overpowered" is not strictly defined as "having no counters". I think a big reason for the argument for Yanma is it's "overpowered" in the simplest connotation of the word; it's basically the strongest Pokemon in LC. You don't just ban the strongest Pokemon, I grant that, but when the strongest Pokemon honestly dwarfs most other things in comparison, "overpowered" or "broken" means simply that; it's just too strong. I think Yanma is walking a very fine line at being this point; hitting the highest 20 Speed, having an accurate sleep move, adequate bulk (especially when compared to other Pokemon of the same offensive caliber), great STABs, and Speed Boost sets as well simply cleaning up excellently. I think you would be hard pressed to ban Yanma off the argument of "it has no true counters" (although it is worth noting that Yanma can indeed get around most of its counters by switching up its set), but the argument here is that Yanma is simply stronger than every other Pokemon in the tier to the point that we can delineate it as "broken". Whether that's enough to justify its ban is up more to the individual and his or her banning philosophy.

 

[Wobbyble]

Lol it's only been a month. A double ban here would be way too rushed. Both are clearly very strong like mienfoo foongus Murkrow missy in gen v, but neither blatantly broken.

Give it more time for a real meta to settle in, there are countless checks and ways to outplay all of the sets in this thread, even if there isn't a definite counter that deals with all sets at once. Just like gen v Murkrow. Wish I could add more, on mobile only for a few more days

I skimmed most posts no one seems to take into account the fact that chlorophyll tangela needs a completely garbage poke to effectively activate it's ability

 

[fatty]

alright, finally putting my two sense in...

tangela
honestly, not much really needs to be said about tangela because it is so obviously broken, but i guess i'll still state my reasoning for why i think that. first of all, the main reason for why i see tangela as being too strong for lc and why i feel it overpowers most lc mons is because of it's sheer bulk. even without a positive nature, tangela can hit 21 def, which is absurdly bulky in little cup. that combined with it's above average hp allows it to wall almost every physical attacker in lc, even shit like acrobatics gligar and meditite to an extent. regenerator just makes everything even more infuriating because all it takes is a simple switch out or two to get tangela back up to full health and ready to wall shit throughout the entirety of a match. the best way to get past defensive checks / counters is to try and wear them down, and with regen it is almost impossible to do so against tangela. hell, even with the knock off buff, tangela can easily take one and still have enough bulk to check what it needs to check. i'll admit, though, that there are other incredibly bulky mons such slowpoke, who also has regenerator i might add, but tangela's other attributes just throw it over the edge. for one, not only is it bulky as fuck, but it has a spa stat of 100. if you didn't know, again, that is amazing in lc. it allows tangela to not only wall a threat, but threaten to ohko or 2hko each one of those threats as well. also, it has access to sleep powder and knock off, two moves that combined with it's defensive and offensive presence make it an absurdly annoying mon to face. with all that considered, i haven't even mentioned the sun special attacker set, which is the most powerful option tangela can run. in sun, take tangela's bulk and it's power, which is even boosted more by solarbeam and boosted hp fire, and add that to the fact that in now outspeeds pretty much every other lc mon. when you have a pokemon that can outright wall, ko, cripple and outspeed most of the tier depending on what set its running, i don't know how you can consider it anything but broken.

yanma
i'll give people this, yanma isn't as obviously broken as tangela is, but if you can forget tangela, yanma is the next most broken mon in lc. without even considering anything else, its speed, sitting at 20, should be almost argument enough to show how easy it can be to sweep / clean an opposing team. it can outrun pretty much the entire unboosted tier, and promptly ko it with it's good STAB coverage. on top of that, speed boost just laughs in potential revenge killers faces, and can create a snowball effect to where if you can't wall it, you auto lose. speaking of walling, though, i don't know a harder set to 'wall' than it's compoundeyes hypnosis set, because as long as it can sleep, it pretty much has no counters. with hypnosis and it's coverage, yanma can either sub up and just dismantle a team by itself, or uturn out can just and set the table for another sweeper to do its job. yanma has so-called 'counters', such as steels, but they are so easily handled with either wearing them down or even hp ground that they usually don't even matter much because yanma is meant to end-game clean anyways. i honestly can only think of munchlax as being the single consistent check to yanma with reliable recovery.

 

[chimp]

Wobbyble
I'd argue that Vulpix isn't a garbage pokemon, its Sun Boosted Fire Blast is hard for most pokemon to swallow. Vulpix and Tangela make a fantastic core as well. Sure, there are better fire types, but Vulpix certainly fills the role well enough to be effective most games.

Tangela is still pretty effective should Vulpix fall. It gets great coverage with just three moves (Solarbeam/HP Fire/Ancient Power) so it has room to run Sunny Day or Giga Drain, which still hits pretty hard off of Tangela's great special attack and kinda makes up for the loss of regenerator.[/quote]

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

smh where's our Gligar Suspect thread

Tangela is the most broken mon in any tier right now. It doesn't even need sun, it can just rip through things with that great special attack with very little viable counters (fuck off Goomy), and none of those like a Knock Off. With Vulpix support, this thing is damn near unstoppable, Solar beam just destroys everything, and it's a lot harder to Revenge Kill. I haven't played that much LC this gen, but a factor in this is I dot like playing in a tier with something so clearly broken.
Pls ban

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I'm late to the party, and as such I feel that anything I can say about Tangela will be the equivalent of beating a dead horse. Other than Electrolyte and Antar, we all believe that Tangela is broken.

Now on to the subject of yanma. I would like to to add something to Treecko's point that Stealth Rock should not be brought up in the concept of this discussion for three reasons.
1. Defog and Rapid Spin support are very easy to fit onto a balanced team, where some, if not most, of Yanma's sets can thrive. Also, I believe it was Heysup who stated that the Yanma user can just lead with Yanma to avoid Stealth Rock altogether. This is also extremely plausible. Two sets can dispatch at least one mon straightaway with the use of Hypnosis, while the other can immediately provide immense offensive pressure. In these scenarios, Stealth Rock is completely irrelevant.
2. Berry Juice. Berry Juice Yanma can switch in on Stealth Rock and immediately be restored to full health. While this does remove it's beloved item, it also allows Yanma to avoid being killed by weak priority attacks.
3. The hyper-offensive state of the current metagame often makes it very difficult to even set Stealth Rock without potentially losing all of your momentum, resulting in an eventual loss. Out of all of the games I've played in xy lc, I would say that about 90-95% of move selections are either outright attacks or set up moves in preparation for a sweep. Basically there often just isn't enough time to set Stealth Rock, which makes it a wholly unreliable way to deal with Yanma.

 

[dcae]

I think Tangela's broken traits have been discussed a lot by now, so I won't delve too much into that. I do want to note that the absolute worst set to face is not the LO Solarbeam set but that fucking Growth Eviolite set that tears shit apart under sun and out of sun. Tangela does so much well that people slap it and Vulpix onto any team, even those that do not synergize with it, and still win. I'd go as so far as to say ChloroTang is more outright broken than Sneasel.


Yanma is the controversial Pokemon atm and that is what I will attempt to focus on. There are three main sets that it can run: Speed Boost Yanma, EvioRoost Compoundeyes, and SubBJ Compoundeyes. The Speed Boost Yanma set is just a good late game sweeper, but individually does not warrant banning nor even being considered as broken, as it gets worn down pretty quickly and has notable checks and counters. The problem here is Compoundeyes Hypnosis and Sleep in general. I think a solid comparison here would be to Darkrai, as that was also a Pokemon that could outspeed almost the entire metagame with a pretty reliable sleep move. However, one key factor that must be taken into account when discussing these two is that despite this massive speed advantage + pretty reliable sleep move is that it does not have the luxury of perfect coverage as Darkrai did. However, what it does have is Substitute + Berry Juice. This ridiculous combination allows Yanma to shrug off status, weak moves, and be safe even when its target wakes up. This is the set that can be argued to be broken.

However, I do not believe this set is as broken as is often pictured. Having faced it multiple times, it is easily Yanma's best set. It is very threatening. But several factors contribute to it not being as dramatically broken as it seems. First of all, Hypnosis is not a 100% reliable move. It is not Spore. This is actually quite notable, as that miss can cost Yanma its life. Secondly, Sleep was massively nerfed this generation. The fact that it is 1-3 turns and does not reset upon switching out means that once a Pokemon is put to sleep, switching it out does not mean you just lost a Pokemon, and since one turn will have passed from the turn you were slept, you have a high chance of waking up on the next time you switch in. The third major factor is the fact that Berry Juice is a one time item. It cannot Substitute endlessly, and without conservative playing, it can potentially lose it and thus become essentially without an item. The final contributing factor is the coverage. As I already outlined earlier, Air Slash and Bug Buzz are not perfect coverage: in fact, they are far from it. Running good coverage, Air Slash + HP Ground, comes at the large cost of low base power moves. Thus, it cannot KO everything after setting up a Substitute, and will end up attempting to generate its own luck through repetitive usage of Sub + Hypnosis, which, despite being very solid, is not infinite and is also not foolproof.

Having analyzed these aspects of Yanma, I must conclude that it does not warrant a ban at this moment. Despite the one set that is arguably breaking it, Compoundeyes + Hypnosis with Sub + BJ, being a top notch set, it is not broken and as such should not be banned.

Tangela, on the other hand, is blatant and must be banned.

 

[prem]

okay so ive been super busy and really late so i probably wont have way too much new to say on the topic.


Tangelol
obviously this thing is broken beyond belief. like honestly i dont even know anything new i can bring to the conversation. bulky tangelol never dies as we talked about in the smogcasst. its really sad when basically nothing takes a life orb mixkrow brave bird BESIDES something thats weak to it. then you look at the lo+regen set who is just being a bully. its coverage is top notch and sleep powder just ignores any of its would be counters besides vullaby. the thing i think that pushes tangela over the edge however is chlorphyll. yes it is impossible to OHKO tangela, but is not impossible to 2hko it. luckily its not the fastest thing in the world so its possible to 2hko it. chlorophyll just takes that idea out of the window. LO+solarbeam literally just makes me switch like a pussy for 8 turns wihle i wait for sun to run out because there is nothing else i can do. i cant kill it with priority and i cant outspeed it. the worst though is just growth+eviolite in the sun. +2 giga drains off 20 spa arent really mangable on their own, now we combine it with tangelols inability to be ohkoed by anything and the healing of giga drain. literally i tried to run sand to beat sun tang and then this popped out and kicked my ass. in the words of rayjay its literally hitler lol.



Yanma
this one is much more of a debate so i think this will be more fun. obviously when we talk about yanma we talk about 2 (or 3 if you think its that big of a difference) with speed boost and compound eyes

honestly if only speed boost yanma existed i wouldnt think its broken. its the definition of an end game sweeper, but it has many checks and counters that can last throughout the game and in the end you can use priority. yes it wont die to one if its at full health but honestly you should be able to weaken it throughout the game and honestly everyone should be using stealth rock anyway.

Compound eyes sets however are just ridiculous. 20 speed are all it really needs to outspeed the tier. that accurate hypnosis is just as bad as tangela's sleep powder which is a problem when its on somthing with great stabs and high speed. with substitute it can literally sweep teams by itself because it will basicalyl 2hko everything in the tier, and its not going to be hit because its behind a sub. U-turn obviously gives it momentum but i dont think thats too big of an issue.

also for people saying yanma has a lot of checks and counters so its not broken. it is very easy for yanma to get around most of these counters. literally as heysup said unless its immune to sleep or something nothing is actually safe from yanma. sleep is just really good right now epsecially when yanma has all that power. if you have to use ban niche sets like voltorb or vital spirit elekid just to beat yanma thats problem, especially when its not even guaranteed to win. yanma keeps so much momentum with it just because of how good it is behind a sub which is a big problem in LC. there are obviously those bulky sleep talkers, but using one of those 4 mons to beat yanma is really sad. especially when some of them could run a much better set, like munchlax.

to the other questions
2) no its not making it unfun for me. i have a lot of fun both using and beat yanmas, while tangela its just fun to use destiny bond on it but its fun nonetheless lol
3) i havent notice people quitting or anything from it.

However, I do not believe this set is as broken as is often pictured. Having faced it multiple times, it is easily Yanma's best set. It is very threatening. But several factors contribute to it not being as dramatically broken as it seems. First of all, Hypnosis is not a 100% reliable move. It is not Spore. This is actually quite notable, as that miss can cost Yanma its life. Secondly, Sleep was massively nerfed this generation. The fact that it is 1-3 turns and does not reset upon switching out means that once a Pokemon is put to sleep, switching it out does not mean you just lost a Pokemon, and since one turn will have passed from the turn you were slept, you have a high chance of waking up on the next time you switch in. The third major factor is the fact that Berry Juice is a one time item. It cannot Substitute endlessly, and without conservative playing, it can potentially lose it and thus become essentially without an item. The final contributing factor is the coverage. As I already outlined earlier, Air Slash and Bug Buzz are not perfect coverage: in fact, they are far from it. Running good coverage, Air Slash + HP Ground, comes at the large cost of low base power moves. Thus, it cannot KO everything after setting up a Substitute, and will end up attempting to generate its own luck through repetitive usage of Sub + Hypnosis, which, despite being very solid, is not infinite and is also not foolproof.

Having analyzed these aspects of Yanma, I must conclude that it does not warrant a ban at this moment. Despite the one set that is arguably breaking it, Compoundeyes + Hypnosis with Sub + BJ, being a top notch set, it is not broken and as such should not be banned.

Tangela, on the other hand, is blatant and must be banned.

okay i will agree that its miss is a problem. but honestly why discuss the chance of a move that generally hits missing. sure that will cost some games but overall it will win more games than lose it by far. also we should be assumigng people use the pokemon properly when discussing its brokenness, so yes the player should be conservitive when necessary to keep subbing on yanma. this basically means yanma will be a nuisance throughout the match because its cripping a pokemon and going behind at least 2-4 subs in the game. its also easy to note that yanma has a fairly easy time switching in in this meta. you can always come in on tangela about to use knock off, gligar using earthquake, all the random fighting moves used in this metagame.

about its coverage. yes it is not perfect but it is VERY amazing. those 2 stab moves alone give it amazing coverage to hit most of the tier at least neutrally, and their secondary effects are also game changers. air slash flinches have literally cluthed games when yanma fails to kill the opponent, and porygon who come in on bug buzzes and lose their spdef just are incapable of beating yanma at that point. also the amount of stuff that actuall walls its stabs through typing alone is very limited (basically archen and the not the 2 best steel types (tesshiido and pawniard)).


also you say its not foolproof for yanma to get create its own luck, but its not okay for a pokemon to be able to single handedly sweep a team through that one set. obviously kind of an exageration but its not like i havent 6-0ed treecko with yanma lol

 

[Celestavian]

Tangela​

1) Is Tangela broken?

Tangela is a no-brainer in my eyes. At the most basic level, Tangela's stats (65/55/115/100/40/60) are simply too good for Little Cup. It can wall anything physical that doesn't have a powerful SE STAB move (Murkrow, Gligar sans item). Even then, check this out:

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 18-26 (69.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)

That is perhaps the most powerful unboosted physical STAB move in LC, which Tangela is weak to, and it has the ability to survive it. If you think this spread is uncommon for Tangela, it might be helpful for me to mention that this is the most common defensive Tangela set in use on the ladder according to TIBot. That base 40 Special Defense is a lot less beefy than Tangela's Defense, but it's still enough when combined with it's good HP stat to tank some special hits, such as those from +1 Swirlix, and then put something to sleep with Sleep Powder. A base 100 Special Attack is titanic for a wall, giving it a higher Special Attack stat with no investment than max Special Attack Timid Scarf Snover. Giga Drain from this thing will hurt, and with a Hidden Power Ice or Fire for coverage, it can KO a specific threat such as Gligar while not being close to OHKOed back. Knock Off helps it hit even harder by removing Eviolites. Sleep Powder is what gives defensive Tangela its fear factor, in my opinion. Since it can force so many switches due to its bulk and powerful Giga Drain, Tangela gets a ton of free turns to throw down Sleep Powder to make it very hard to switch into. Even if you have a Yanma or something that can take out Tangela, you are forced to sacrifice a Pokemon to get it in safely, and nothing can stop Tangela from just switching out. Regenerator is the icing on the cake, giving it reliable recovery and removing any penalty to Tangela for being forced out. All of this combines to make a nearly impassable wall that LC would be glad to be rid of.

Sun Tangela with Chlorophyll and Life Orb and LO Regenerator Tangela focus more on Tangela's massive base 100 Special Attack. With Regenerator, Tangela is free to spam LO boosted Leaf Storms from its huge Special Attack and then switch out and regain any health it may have lost from LO and hazards, completely negating the penalties that would normally keep such a set in check. Of course, after using Leaf Storm, Tangela is now forced out thanks to the -2 Special Attack modifier it now has. This isn't always a problem for it, however. Even if it is forced to switch out, it loses basically no health thanks to Regenerator. In addition, the free turn it gives its opponent isn't always useful. If whatever switched in survived, it is definitely weakened a good bit by Leaf Storm. The target is now either forced to Recover, or if it lacks recovery, it must now try to do its job at half health or less. If that job is to check Tangela, then it is no longer capable of it, and will be KOed the next time it tries to switch in. If the target did not survive, this can pose a problem for Tangela if a setup sweeper is able to come in on -2 Tangela. If not, then Tangela picked up a free KO and can now switch out with impunity.

LO Chlorophyll in sun trades the passive healing from Regenerator for pure Speed, allowing it to Speed tie with +1 Yanma and Scarfed 20's like Elekid (this doesn't ever happen but people always mention it anyways). That Speed is the key to this set's success, since otherwise all the 2HKOes that Tangela gets would be harder to get due to its otherwise decent base 60 Speed. In addition, Tangela also gains access to a viable Solar Beam, giving it basically a Leaf Storm that doesn't lower your your Special Attack. Boosted Hidden Power Fire and AncientPower gives Tangela all the coverage it needs. This gives it a 2HKO on pretty much everything in the metagame besides Sap Sippers and 4x Grass resists. As evidence, look at some of the calculations I have compiled here:

196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Solar Beam vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 16-19 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Solar Beam vs. 236 HP / 200+ SpD Eviolite Mantyke: 9-13 (37.5 - 54.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO (highest Special Defense in Little Cup!)

196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 8-10 (38 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Without SR, Solar Beam + AncientPower is a KO)

196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Solar Beam vs. 36 HP / 20 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO

196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Hidden Power Fire vs. 124 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Foongus in Sun: 21-26 (84 - 104%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196+ SpA Life Orb Tangela Solar Beam vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 13-17 (46.4 - 60.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO

These calcs showcase Tangela's power against some of the bulkiest special walls in Little Cup, or against decently bulky resisters like Ponyta. As you can see, none of these walls can switch in to check Tangela without getting 2HKOed in the process. All it takes is for Tangela to get in on something it outspeeds, and then it can just spam Solar Beam as much as it wants. There were a few notable exceptions, such as Vullaby who can withstand Solar Beam + AncientPower, but on the whole, everything I checked was 2HKOed by some combination of Tangela's moves. As a result, this set is harder to revenge kill than either the defensive set or LO Regenerator, because nothing can switch in and outspeed Tangela before it KOes them. Most priority is physical, and even with no investment or Eviolite, they still get absorbed by its huge base 115 Defense.

Tangela's checks and counters are few and far between, and none can handle both sets at once without prior set-up. Yanma is definitely the best Tangela check, since it OHKOes it with a Life Orb Bug Buzz while outspeeding it. With a Speed Boost under its belt, it ties with Modest Chlorophyll Tangela, giving you a 50% chance to beat it, and a 50% chance to be crushed by AncientPower. Outside of that, your best hope is to try and muscle past it. Murkrow and Ponyta have 120 BP SE STAB moves to hit it with, but as I've shown above, the defensive set can live through them and either put them to sleep, Knock Off their items, or put a hurting on them with the correct coverage move, and then switch out to get some health back. Neither of them are capable of switching in, however, so you'll either need to make a sacrifice or a good double switch. Goomy has Sap Sipper to stop STAB Leaf Storms and Sleep Powders, and a Sludge Wave to 2HKO it with, but it's pretty mediocre outside of stopping Tangela. Knock Off will hurt any Tangela set by depriving it of its item, but even so, that could be said of the vast majority of the metagame.

Whether it's defensive or offensive, I'd like to summarize with this: Tangela has high, well-distributed stats, fantastic abilities, the inability to be switched into, and the ability to easily weaken or disable its would-be checks, making it too much for the Little Cup metagame to handle. As this is the case, I see no need to visit questions 2 and 3 for Tangela, as blarajan himself says they are not important if the Pokemon in question is broken.

Yanma​

1) Is Yanma broken?

Yanma is a different beast from Tangela, since Yanma's stats don't exactly scream "raw power"(65/65/45/75/45/95). A Base 75 Special Attack is good, definitely usable, but it's not on the level of something we correlate with "hard-hitting" such as Murkrow, Abra, or Tangela. Indeed, Yanma's stats appear good, but not like a top threat in the metagame. In practice, Yanma is a very powerful threat that every team needs solid answers to to be able to succeed. Like Chlorophyll Tangela, Speed is the key to Yanma's success here. Having a max Speed of 20 means it never has to worry about Speed tying anything but the other, uncommon 20 Speeders. This makes Life Orb viable on Yanma, as it no longer needs to carry Eviolite to help it win Speed ties. Now equipped with a Life Orb, Yanma has all the power it needs to deal tons of damage to almost anything.

The Speed Boost set is the set that most people are familiar with, and it makes for an excellent late game sweeper. With Protect to keep it safe for a turn, Yanma is guaranteed to outspeed anything that can't boost its own Speed. After that, it can use STAB Bug Buzz and Air Slash to KO pretty much anything weak to them, and deal tons of damage to frail neutral targets. The main problem with this set is that it is really easy to use; pair it with a reliable Stealth Rock remover and weaken any possible Yanma checks, and it will sweep easily. "But you could say this of any lategame sweeper!" you say, but none can do it as easily as Yanma can. LO Murkrow has Brave Bird recoil and the unreliable Sucker Punch to deal with, making it hard to keep healthy. Swirlix is too slow to begin with, making it more vulnerable before it sets up to Pokemon like Pawniard and Meditite who can threaten it. Berry Juice Gligar relies on getting hit first without dying to boost its Acrobatics, making it a little shaky in a tier where everything carries a random Ice move to screw it over. There is simply nothing in the tier that can just come in and dish out tons of damage like Yanma does.

Yanma's other ability, Compoundeyes, is somewhat underused in this metagame compared to Speed Boost. Rather than sweeping lategame, Yanma can also become an earlygame disruption, using boosted accuracy Hypnosis to put to sleep any slower Pokemon (pretty much all of them) and then either start hitting with LO boosted attacks or set up a Substitute with Berry Juice to earn a free turn to do what it wants. Yanma's Speed stat of 20 means that nothing without Prankster or Scarf can stop Hypnosis from happening, and while sleep got nerfed from Gen 5, it's still enough to earn Yanma an easy free turn. From my experience, the Substitute set does this the best, as a Yanma behind a Sub is much more threatening than the sweeper set could be, since it doesn't matter anymore if Yanma does not OHKO its target, as it can just attack twice and most likely get the 2HKO.

Yanma does have more checks than Tangela though, which makes it a bit easier to deal with. Archen is the best Pokemon for the job thanks to its resistance to Yanma's two STABs, reliable recovery in Roost, and Rock STAB with which to massacre Yanma. Otherwise, Yanma's biggest threats are those that resist Bug Buzz, since it then must rely on the weaker, less accurate Air Slash to deal damage. Gligar, especially Eviolite sets, can easily switch in on Yanma due to its resistance to Bug Buzz and lack of weakness to Air Slash, which is a 3HKO even on Berry Juice sets. From there, Gligar can just use Acrobatics to destroy Yanma. Pawniard is not OHKOed by anything Yanma uses and can use Knock Off to OHKO it with 2 rounds of Life Orb recoil, but it must be wary of switching in. Ponyta can roast it as well, while not being OHKOed by HP Ground. Stealth Rock is a massive problem for Yanma as well, but it should always be paired with a reliable hazard remover, so good players don't always have problems with it.

So is Yanma broken? It's not as clear-cut in my eyes, but I believe that it is broken. The main reason for why this is so is because of Yanma's low-risk high-reward nature. Sweeping with Speed Boost Yanma is not hard at all as long as you don't let your opponent get set up or let Yanma die. Likewise, Compoundeyes Yanma's Hypnosis is all but guaranteed thanks to its huge Speed and boosted accuracy. This makes for a huge threat that isn't hard to play and only requires a few specific checks weakened or removed to succeed. Pawniard, for example, provides fantastic offensive and defensive synergy with Yanma. Pawniard's powerful Knock Off's both tenderize the enemy team and remove their Eviolites and Berry Juices. With those out of the way, Yanma can sweep unimpeded. With the right support, Yanma can easily become too hard to stop, which leads me to believe the metagame would be better off without it.

 

[Heysup]

^ that post is the only thing bulkier than Tangela in this thread.

Lol it's only been a month. A double ban here would be way too rushed. Both are clearly very strong like mienfoo foongus Murkrow missy in gen v, but neither blatantly broken.

Give it more time for a real meta to settle in, there are countless checks and ways to outplay all of the sets in this thread, even if there isn't a definite counter that deals with all sets at once. Just like gen v Murkrow. Wish I could add more, on mobile only for a few more days

I skimmed most posts no one seems to take into account the fact that chlorophyll tangela needs a completely garbage poke to effectively activate it's ability

Two huge problems I have with this:

1) Clearly strong like Mienfoo etc is NOT what Tangela is now. There is no reasoning to support this while the reasoning against it is really hard to ignore. Mienfoo just outclassed its counterparts at stuff but was not something that OHKOed your entire team while surviving STAB super effective attacks (like Tangela). It was a great utility Pokemon that needed skill to use, unlike the two suspects in question.

2) You clearly just "skimmed" most posts because you missed the parts where people DID take that into account. The first point is that Tangela without Chlorophyll is still absurdly good because of its utility, power, and longevity. The second point is that Vulpix is not even remotely "garbage" since autoweather gives its STAB move an additional multiplier - meaning it hits hard AND it has great utility purposes like countering most fairies and tanking stuff like Fake Out.

 

[Chieliee]

Vulpix used Fire Blast!
The opposing Meditite lost 95% of its health!
The opposing Meditite fainted!
bangela: and they say 'vulpix is weak'


vs life orb meditite.

let this forever end the 'vulpix is weak therefore you need to give up a teamslot so chlorophyll tangela is not broken' arguments.

The sun it gives itself essentially gives Vulpix an 5 or 8-turn adaptability (and you never stay in that long anyway), except the boost is ×2.25 instead of ×2. nothing, besides Munchlax and bulky waters like taking a FIre Blast (and Will-o-Wisp and Energy ball respectively somewhat deal with those)

a calc comparing Vulpix with Life Orb Murkrow, arguably the most common 'nuke' in lc (besides life orb tangela, i guess)

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 13-17 (50 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
196 SpA Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 12-15 (46.1 - 57.6%) -- 51.2% chance to 2HKO (12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15)

since when is the difference between 'weak' and 'super strong' so small?

irrelevant but fun

kinda irrelevant since nobody runs this but r.i.p. murkrow tyranny, strongest attack no more

196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon in Sun: 16-19 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)

Hell, you could run scarf vulpix without any sun abusers, just for a strong fire blast.

 

[kingmidas]

Vulpix used Fire Blast!
The opposing Meditite lost 95% of its health!
The opposing Meditite fainted!
bangela: and they say 'vulpix is weak'


vs life orb meditite.

let this forever end the 'vulpix is weak therefore you need to give up a teamslot so chlorophyll tangela is not broken' arguments.

The sun it gives itself essentially gives Vulpix an 5 or 8-turn adaptability (and you never stay in that long anyway), except the boost is ×2.25 instead of ×2. nothing, besides Munchlax and bulky waters like taking a FIre Blast (and Will-o-Wisp and Energy ball respectively somewhat deal with those)


i could run scarf vulpix without any sun abusers, just for a strong fire blast.

Vulpix does abuse sun almost as much as the CH sweepers, but the most deadly item is heatrock imo. Just the ability to sack it late game and have 8 turns of sun for tangela makes that solarbeam so much more of a game clinching power move.

 

[Chieliee]

i am actually running heat rock, but if there were no other drought abusers a scarf set /could/ work

 

[prem]

yeah theres a difference between bad and outclassed. Without Drought, vulpix would definately be outclassed because its stats are basically just a worse Houndour, but its definately not bad. 17 speed off repectable Spa, good coverage, good support moves all make Vulpix viable on its own. Drought, just like Chieliee said, just gives it double stab which flat out makes it amazing cause that fire blast is actually very threatening.

also the thing about Tangelol is that you dont have to run a dedicated sun team. litearlly all my "sun teams" are me taking a previous team, and throwing on tangela and vulpix because they are both good standalone mons and Tangela is so good that it alone is all you need for sun to be effective. no other chlorophyll sweeper can even compare to that power or bulk its ridiculous.

 

[dcae]

Adding on to this, I literally slapped the "Sun core", tang + vulpix, on a team with 2 water sweepers, with absolutely no synergy or hazards, and I still managed to beat top players. This is all due to Tangela being absolutely ridiculous. It must go :|