Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Toxic [ Tiering Note Post #2 ]

[quacc]

Yeah yeah... ting lu can ruination it and cause it to not want to switch in well... great tusk can knock and swith out and all of a sudden ur taking a lot more damage.. even smth like lando-t or garchomp which dont threaten it as much (it cant threaten lando-t much) and even then garchomp usually can just eq it down... + u have teammates to counter hatt to.... while they also have teammates hatt isnt ORAS mega sab lvl of fucking over removal.

"if your Hatterene takes rocks, you probably screwed up somewhere"

uh huh... much easier said than done

Unless Ting-Lu is heavy slam, you can just draining kiss/leftovers the ruination. Also, teams with Ting-Lu probably do not feature a hazards setting Gliscor, just saying.

I'm looking at the rest of your list of rockers, and I must say... most of these are awful Gliscor partners. Nobody... let me emphasize that real quick.

NOBODY. NOBODY is running Garchomp + Gliscor or Gliscor + Landorus-T. I hope I do not need to explain why this is a poor choice.

Great Tusk is the only legitimate one you could say, and even then, most are ice spinner and not knock off. Plus, draining kiss deals a lot. Besides, not many people run Great Tusk + Gliscor, since that is also a typing + physical ground type overlap.

I'll try to explain why half of the mons you've suggested aren't actual counters in the first place.

1. take heart manaphy does NOT like switching into spikes (that you set yourself) and if it happens to be KO gliscor and gets knocked on the switch then it's incredibly to wear it down with HALF decent offensive pressure since it doesn't have the consistent lefties healing it.

2. i hate to break it to you but hatterene is just straight up not the answer u think it is gang. Hatt legit takes a quarter from an uninvested eq (MINIMUM) and all gliscor has to do is switch out to its teammates like a dirge, milotic, heatran that's a fairy resit and hatt is forced out with ease. (yes milo is basically a fairy resist at this point). Also wearing down hatt is stupid easy. it has 0 reliable recovery and if you don't want to get spiked or hazard spammed on you practically have to throw it into battle to make sure that it and it's teammates don't get rundown by the spikes/ rocks users. And if you don't predict correctly then hazards are going up and you're using hat to stop those exact hazards. So in reality the mindgames "do i click hazards or not" are just skewed in the attacker's favor.

3. corv is an unserious mon whether you have a gholdengo or not. in general it's a huge momentum sink that flails around bulky defensive teams OR it's a pokemon that gets overwhelmed pretty easily against offensive teams that threaten it. Simply put, corv feels like a do-nothing mon in most match ups and I do not rate this mon highly.

4. MG cleff does shit on gliscor but spedef gliscor can make it waste moonlight pp which can be costly if you're playing against a bulky team that NEEDS your clef to manage the 8 moonlight PP that it has. but yah mg clef is by far the best gliscor counter.

5. for things like balloon ghold and heatran are literally do nothing about the spikes gliscor sets down. Like you're acting like we're playing a metagame where we can't just switch out of the MU. there are bulky waters everywhere like emp, milo, mola that don't give up momentum and allow for a pivot into a pokemon that threatens it out. and as for milo it just beats both those 2 mons outright. and remember gliscor very well could have just spiked left and then next time all of your other mons are getting worn down.

All of your counters "work" against gliscor to a certain extent for sure. there's a reason why gliscor didn't get quickbanned to the shadow realm instantly.

However, we play a 6v6 metagame, and gliscor's ability to wear down it's checks and counters WHILE making progress for your teammate's checks and counters is what makes it problematic. That is why every Ban voters have been screaming there's no GOOD counterplay against gliscor.

hope this actually makes sense mate :-;

1. Yeah, Manaphy doesn't like spikes, but Manaphy finds itself on more offensive teams, where spike setting opportunities are a lot more scarce.

2. Sure, you can go into something like Skeledirge. That's probably the only one I would honestly accept. The issue with Heatran is that Gliscor teams often cannot fit hazard removal and, thus, cannot fit a leftovers reliant mon (or a mon that just gets its balloon popped and taken out with spikes). As for Skeledirge, only knock off Gliscor makes you hate Skeledirge because with 2 turns of lefties and draining kiss on Skeledirge, you healed everything back up. Rinse and repeat for 16 earthquakes and now, Hatterene infinitely sits on Gliscor.

3. Corviknight isn't really that bad as people keep considering it as. It has good pivot and utility as well as serving a purpose as an early game Kingambit answer with rocky helmet and body press. It definitely has its uses, and if it was an unserious mon, it would literally not be in OU and, before you say that it's Gliscor's fault, it was still OU before Gliscor too. This isn't even a mon that's dodging UU right now like Landorus-T; it's consistently a top 20-25 mon. For reference, September's usage stats (before Gliscor) had Corviknight at #19, which is not bad at all, and currently, it's #21, which isn't bad either. I get this isn't an incredibly accurate representation of how good Corviknight is, but it should prove at the bare minimum that it isn't bad.

4. Personally, I do not like the moonlight sets and prefer the wish sets, but the moonlight sets that do exist can run moves like calm mind with leftovers to threaten even spdef Gliscor. Wish sets do not get PP stalled that easily, if at all.

5. I mean, heavy duty boots and offensive teams also exist. Neither of these care that much about hazards unless you have a good knock off user, which you probably have some way to absorb knock off, such as Corviknight, Clefable, your own Gliscor if you really wanted one, or potentially Great Tusk. Before you say that "Gliscor forces boots," Gliscor really doesn't; we've been doing the same before the DLC for the exact same reasons as right now.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I was more so saying that hatt isnt as solid of a stealth rock deterent as you think... i wasnt really listing gliscor partners but even then clef, garg, tusk are pretty good partners and hatt doesnt exactly want to take hits... esp once it gets low enough you want to perserve the hp...

Like... clef uses knock off and means the moonblast damage sticks much harder... garg with salt cure kinda chips it down much more and can force rocks up and even if hatt is CM you can just switch out since hatt is losing hp by the second

" 5. I mean, heavy duty boots and offensive teams also exist. Neither of these care that much about hazards unless you have a good knock off user, which you probably have some way to absorb knock off, such as Corviknight, Clefable, your own Gliscor if you really wanted one, or potentially Great Tusk. Before you say that "Gliscor forces boots," Gliscor really doesn't; we've been doing the same before the DLC for the exact same reasons as right now. "

Before DLC we had teams running boots esp stall... but rn balance kinda is forced to or you better have some of the best gliscor answers ever on a team to prevent getting 3 layers... esp tusk gets overwhelmed often from the many things it has to deal with

 

[1LDK]

also, shoutout to the absolute fucking chad running no-roost choice scarf corviknight that is apparently .28% of corv usage. Funny as hell.

We have 254 post in this thread, yet this is the only good thing coming out of it, and that's a big if considering it's corviknight who we're talking about.

I haven't done my 1LDK post because I do think ghol should have come first, but I know how to read, so I was not going to come out here and shit the thread like most of you (only doing it now since there's less than 24 hours left), now, is gliscor banworthy? Probably, it's 100% stupid tho, it's effectively a gen 8 mon in a gen 9 world, has hazards, knock off, toxic, U-turn, status immune, protect means he can easily scout potential choice locked mons, and can pivot around, it's fairly customizable in walling

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 244 HP / 140 Def / 124 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Protect
- Spikes / Whatever you want really

Been personally running this, with tera water u tank 3 booster speed hydro steams from specs wake in sun, which means free toxic, protect, eq, protect, spikes, protect, you get the idea, and so on and so forth, we have banned every broken ice type gamefreak has given us since those are too fucking stupid as well (and outside Alolan sandlash, none of them is immune to toxic on the switch), so we are resorting to random ice coverage, worry seed amoongus, hex spam and corviknight who I have been using as of late and its even worse than I remember, even a hello kitty dino nuggie girl is less passive. SD sets are less effective, but thanks to gliscor being so bulky and most of his defensive answers being so passive, farming for flinches and freeze status is genuinely viable if you really wanna go for it, what's corvi gonna do? ID? Yeah, good luck with my dengo on the back

This thing alone has pushed balance from the worst play style to the best, because right now we have no actual tools to deal with it, we have to play his game

I don't know man, fat balance and its consequences, anyway here's the obligatory bunny video

 

[Monai]

I have attained reqs, but am relatively new to sv ou. I invite people advocating for and against the ban to share compelling replays at a high level (scl, 2k ladder). Don't wanna vote uninformed

 

[Highv0ltag3]

Why? What does it add in the tier besides forcing teams to run 6x boots teams, or just running gliscor mirrors to just try to force each other to make progress because gliscor spikes are prob the best progress maker against bulkier teams.

What if we remove gliscor? Spikes will sure take a hit and you dont have to run 6x boots to just not to lose. Ting lu is nowhere near as oppressive as gliscor is at setting them up and harrassing the opponent

You just go back to samurott-H + Gholdengo or Ting-Lu + Gholdengo and are still forced to run 6x boots teams, except this time you have Clefable as an option. Banning Gliscor doesn´t solve the hazard issue. If we truly want to solve it, we have to cut it´s root, which we all know is Gholdengo.

 

[Highv0ltag3]

Okay, so after reading more posts I decided to made another post regarding to gliscor.

I would like to propose a comparison of Gliscor in gen 9 OU and Lando-T in gen 8 OU, the latter which is not cosidered to be broken, but has its own controversies in the tier. Since gen 8 have no gliscor, you had to use lando-t by default if you want to use ground/flying. In gen 9 ou, lando-t is simply not good by comparison at the very least, so clearly both dominates.

And then you look at their toolkits... yeah
Gliscor can passively heal much more than Lando -T ever could, accumulated by protect to strengthen it's longevity. SD on both are not really consider broken by almost anyone so lets skip that. And then, both are ground types are toxic users that are ground types, so it also cancels out. However, Gliscor has ALL THREE HAZARDS as opposed to only sr for lando. Getting up those hazards are not hard at all given the longevity of them, but poision heal elevated the bulk to increase the chances that you could get up multiple layer of hazards, as opposed to ever only able to set up one. Both have u-turn, knock off. Gliscor was pretty much just gen 8 lando-t but way way better. Not to mention that defog distribution has been severely limited, removing practically any defogger besides corviknight (which is a unreliable defogger due to ghold anyway and don't even always run the move), one viable rapid spinner (Great Tusk) which you also need ice spinner on the set to actually threaten it, and heavily afraid of toxic, and court change cinderace which lose to gliscor 1v1 anyway, and need to pair with Great tusk to even keep them off in the first place, which restricts teambuilding. It is possible to kill gliscor, but no matter what, it's spikes set (or the occasional stealth rock) always give value that had very little actual counterplay. The Combo of Gliscor plus Ghold really cant be stop reasonably without specificly building a team to counteract it, which is usually worse off against other playstyles(not going deeper into ghold to prevent off topic). Gen 8 Lando-T simply doesn't put as much constraints to team building as gen 9 gliscor does, especially when weavile is a top mon. Speaking of Weavile, this meta heavily lacks ice types. The only one was Ninetails-Alola which is a support mon, and usually just want to set up aurora veil. It also loses to ghold which is a common partner, so it really doesn't hurt gliscor. Especially cuz Gliscor runs protect, it can help stalling out veil turns. Otherwise, you had the at best B+ tier Weavile, which is not bad but not great either. It also does not switch into Gliscor. This is especially noticeable with the bax ban. Weavile is really popular in gen 8, limiting lando in some way,especially because lando lacks the longevity to withstand infinite assults. Gliscor is so good that people had to use their own gliscor to check it, and the SD set crush them with ease. There is no true bad matchups to Gliscor, unlike Lando where it could be limited against some structures. Versatility is good if you want a healthy meta, withstanding otherwise dangerous threads, hence why great tusk was not banned pre home. Gliscor is different. It do check a vary of threats, yes. But it also take advantage of them too hard

Conclusion: Again Plz Ban

Regarding Pokemon capable of Killing Gliscor, you focus on the lower presence of Ice Types this generation and completely ignore the fact that there are more Water Types in OU this generation than in generation 8. You didn´t have Manaphy, Samurott-H, Walking Wake and Greninja back in gen 8 but do now. Obviously none of these are switch-ins, but neither would they be against SS Landorus-T, so that argument is redundant when we compare both. Also, you completely ignore the notion that, while Gliscor has more longevity than Lando (even tho Lando is Physically bulkier via Intimidate), this increase in longevity is basically compensating for this Generation´s absurd increase in Power Creep. I like to think of it as your salary increasing to compensate for inflation, your buypower stays the same. You also mention Great Tusk Cinderace and Corviknight as hazard control options that lose to Gliscor or Gliscor + Gholdengo in the long term, and completely ignore the fact that Hatterene exists and shuts down spikes sets with ease.

To conclude, you don´t say anything incorrect in your post, but you omit too many crucial opposing arguments, making your post clearly biased around what you actually like to play with, as opposed to the tools the tier actually has.

 

[Highv0ltag3]

Where were all these "Spikes are broken, pls nerf" people when Samurott-H + Gholdengo was the meta?

"Oh, it´s too easy to set spikes up with Gliscor, let´s ban it!"

We literally had a metagame defined around a Pokemon capable of setting Spikes with an attack before Gliscor showed up, and you are complaining about it now?

"Gliscor forces most teams to spam HDB"

Oh yeah, as if we didn´t have the same during Home meta, and the Ghold + Samurott infestation of the metagame was so big that Wo-Chien was literally meta at top Ladder during OLT just because it cteamed this Boots Hrott + Boots Ghold + Boots Zama + Boots Gambit + Boots Gking teams.

The hipocrisy is starting to become evident, a lot of people in this thread don´t disapprove of Gliscor because of the hazard problem, they simply hate it´s defensive profile.

 

[Magcargo]

You just go back to samurott-H + Gholdengo or Ting-Lu + Gholdengo and are still forced to run 6x boots teams, except this time you have Clefable as an option. Banning Gliscor doesn´t solve the hazard issue. If we truly want to solve it, we have to cut it´s root, which we all know is Gholdengo.

I think Spikes in general gotta go.... Defog Corv just ain't it man. Gets worn down too fast vs those gliscor teams, removes your own progress with Defog, and the only additional utility is the slow U-Turn, which is really good, but feels much better alongside a set like ID, which always feels like it does more. Perhaps stall would leverage its talents better than balance should glisc go. That being said I'm already seeing crap like Rocky Helmet and sticky Barb Clef that makes removing Hell for Corv.

Hot Take: Clef is the mon making Glisc so annoying to deal with, not Ghold.

In general though, the results of this thought expirement on gholdless or gliscless meta will only last for two weeks, so I suppose there isn't much merit in thinking about it too deeply. I agree Glisc isn't uncounterable, but dealing with it over a sustained period of time is difficult.

 

[JunkoAJ]

The hipocrisy is starting to become evident, a lot of people in this thread don´t disapprove of Gliscor because of the hazard problem, they simply hate it´s defensive profile.

To be fair, I think this is a part of the problem some people have, right? Even if I don't think Scor should be banned, you are correct, it is the defensive profile ALONGSIDE hazards and them being impossible to remove that is part of the problem people have with it.

 

[Highv0ltag3]

To be fair, I think this is a part of the problem some people have, right? Even if I don't think Scor should be banned, you are correct, it is the defensive profile ALONGSIDE hazards and them being impossible to remove that is part of the problem people have with it.

If the argument you want to make is that "Gliscor is broken defensively and not as a support Pokémon", you have to prove it. Remember this mon doesn't even have direct recovery, it's Protect recovery attempts can be exploited with Set-Up moves, and it's bulk isn't anything crazy for OU level. It's special bulk is still average and it's physical bulk falls short of Ting-Lu, Dondozo and other walls. Now go ahead, explain to me why Gliscor is broken defensively.

 

[Over Thinker]

You just go back to samurott-H + Gholdengo or Ting-Lu + Gholdengo and are still forced to run 6x boots teams, except this time you have Clefable as an option. Banning Gliscor doesn´t solve the hazard issue. If we truly want to solve it, we have to cut it´s root, which we all know is Gholdengo.

The problem with Gliscor is that it sets up spikes WAY too easily. Samurott-H finds it hard to switch in and is often used as a suicide lead to get spikes up which can then be removed. Ting-Lu can switch in more easily than Sam and can keep getting up spikes more easily but no recovery outside of lefties and rest means its longevity is relatively poor. Gliscor It can switch in way more easily than Samurott-H thanks to posion heal plus protect which not only gives it passive recovery but also status immunity giving it the longevity that Ting-Lu can only dream of having. The problem with only banning Ghold is that there is still going to be a hazard problem because there are just too few ways of removing hazards. Corviknight is the only OU pokemon with Defog and not every team can afford to run. Great Tusk is there but it can be blocked by ghost types with a predict and it has no recovery outside of lefties and it is also vulnerable to status. Hatterene can bounce hazards back but only with a predict really and it also has poor longevity as it has no non-lefties recovery outside of the 50BP Draining Kiss. Cinderace can flip the hazards but boots spam teams don't care about hazards on their side so they can just put hazards back up after one court change. Not to mention that Cinderace has poor bulk, no recovery because you basically have to run boots and you are also vulnerable to hazards. Glimmora is also an option with mortal spin but it's rarely used as a hazard removal and is usually seen as a suicide lead that can remove hazards from other hazard leads before it dies. Not to mention that every main hazard setter can hit it for super effective damage and Gliscor in particular can just sit on it. Notice a pattern with the hazard removal mons? All but Corv have bad longevity and no non-lefties recovery which Gliscor can take advantage of with toxic on all but Hatterene (and Glimmora but its not like Glimmora can just sit on Gliscor) which it can just EQ or Knock and then switch out into a pokemon that pressures it, and eventually Hatterene will be worn down and you can easily get up hazards. The main problem with hazards currently as that the ease of which you can get them up far outweighs the ease of which you can remove them. Part of the problem is the Golden boy but Gliscor is also a problem because it can set up spikes way to easily over and over again. Even if we ban Joe Gold, Gliscor is still going to be able to set up spikes over again with only Corv really being able to remove them reliably and not every team can afford to run Corv.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

You just go back to samurott-H + Gholdengo or Ting-Lu + Gholdengo and are still forced to run 6x boots teams, except this time you have Clefable as an option. Banning Gliscor doesn´t solve the hazard issue. If we truly want to solve it, we have to cut it´s root, which we all know is Gholdengo.

Banning gholdengo doesnt solve it either... because defog corv is a pretty crap option to take everything on esp when other options will rise up to pressure it to.... its not like corv was very good at its job anyway even without gholdengo around...

But yet we have got to try something. You cant really tell me right now that gholdengo suspect is guaranteed to go the way you want. What makes it so that other people wont come out and disagree with this statement of what you think? What if the verdict becomes DNB then what?

 

[Highv0ltag3]

Banning gholdengo doesnt solve it either... because defog corv is a pretty crap option to take everything on esp when other options will rise up to pressure it to.... its not like corv was very good at its job anyway even without gholdengo around...

But yet we have got to try something. You cant really tell me right now that gholdengo suspect is guaranteed to go the way you want. What makes it so that other people wont come out and disagree with this statement of what you think? What if the verdict becomes DNB then what?

I made a post on this subject earlier. Assuming Gholdengo stays, it is better for the metagame for Gliscor to stay, than to get banned. Since if it gets banned it merely gets replaced by Samurott or Ting-Lu as a spiker, but if it stays, at least you can run your own Gliscor + Clef + HDB spam structures to beat Gholdengo + Gliscor structures. I don´t think people realize this, but debating about a Gliscor ban assuming Gholdengo stays, is similar to debating if the Pokemon Home meta was better than the current one, which it wasn´t, despite the current one not being very good either.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I made a post on this subject earlier. Assuming Gholdengo stays, it is better for the metagame for Gliscor to stay, than to get banned. Since if it gets banned it merely gets replaced by Samurott or Ting-Lu as a spiker, but if it stays, at least you can run your own Gliscor + Clef + HDB spam structures to beat Gholdengo + Gliscor structures. I don´t think people realize this, but debating about a Gliscor ban assuming Gholdengo stays, is similar to debating if the Pokemon Home meta was better than the current one, which it wasn´t, despite the current one not being very good either.

"no, no, guys, you don't understand, gliscor is actually better for the meta because you can check it by running your own gliscor, plus clefable and 4 boots mons, so your entire team is dedicated to answering gliscor and its consequences! virtually every team on high ladder being one of the same 3 compositions with minor variations is balanced and normal and healthy! this is definitely how game balancing works, don't look it up"

listen man, i respect you as a player, but this argument is weaker than unboosted stored power

 

[Over Thinker]

I made a post on this subject earlier. Assuming Gholdengo stays, it is better for the metagame for Gliscor to stay, than to get banned. Since if it gets banned it merely gets replaced by Samurott or Ting-Lu as a spiker, but if it stays, at least you can run your own Gliscor + Clef + HDB spam structures to beat Gholdengo + Gliscor structures. I don´t think people realize this, but debating about a Gliscor ban assuming Gholdengo stays, is similar to debating if the Pokemon Home meta was better than the current one, which it wasn´t, despite the current one not being very good either.

I don't see how a metagame where you basically have to run HDB spam + Gliscor and Clef is good. As I have stated in my previous post, Samu and Ting-Lu can keep spikes up as easily as Gliscor because they can't switch in as easily and don't have the longevity Gliscor has. The main problem with Gliscor is how restricting it is on the metagame to a point where it feels like the only good team types are HDB spam with Gliscor and Clef and Grassy Terrain Offense. While not amazing I do believe that the home meta was better than the current meta. During home meta you didn't see as many HDB spam teams as now because hazards were more manageable. The home meta undoubtably suffered from a problem with hazards but you could pressure the spike setters much more easily. With Gliscor , it is really hard to pressure because of its reliable recovery. The only pokemon that can really pressure Gliscor are Set-Up mons but even those can be toxiced if Gliscor stays in and your opponent can just switch to a counter and then recover any lost hp on Gliscor later. While Ting-Lu could stay in on a few of the set up mons to ruination or whirlwind, if the mon attacked then Ting-Lu will take a big chunk of damage or get its lefties knocked off or get statused which will severely reduce its longevity. Gliscor abosrbs knock off and status and can recover off damage over team. Samurott-h's longevity is non existing and while you can't block its spikes, you can either take out or damage it and eventually take it down. Gliscor's problem is that it can just keep setting up spikes. Even if Ghold gets banned, Gliscor will toxic Tusk of switch in, EQ Hatt or the occasional Iron Threads and just passively recovering from any hit that's not boosted or super effective.

 

[Highv0ltag3]

"no, no, guys, you don't understand, gliscor is actually better for the meta because you can check it by running your own gliscor and 4 boots mons! this is definitely how game balancing works, don't look it up"

listen man, i respect you as a player, but this argument is weaker than unboosted stored power

Not just because you can run Gliscor for Gliscor, but because you can run Gliscor + Clef for literally any Spiker in the tier, from Samurott to Ting-Lu. People fail to realize that if we go back to a similar meta to Pokemon Home, all that the old Samurott + Ghold teams need to add to destroy hdb spam teams is literally just a knocker that beats Clef. However, with both of them in the tier, Samurott + Ghold structures arent dominant any more, not just because Gliscor outclasses Samurott, but because they need a knocker that beats both Clef and Gliscor.

 

[Highv0ltag3]

I don't see how a metagame where you basically have to run HDB spam + Gliscor and Clef is good. As I have stated in my previous post, Samu and Ting-Lu can keep spikes up as easily as Gliscor because they can't switch in as easily and don't have the longevity Gliscor has. The main problem with Gliscor is how restricting it is on the metagame to a point where it feels like the only good team types are HDB spam with Gliscor and Clef and Grassy Terrain Offense. While not amazing I do believe that the home meta was better than the current meta. During home meta you didn't see as many HDB spam teams as now because hazards were more manageable. The home meta undoubtably suffered from a problem with hazards but you could pressure the spike setters much more easily. With Gliscor , it is really hard to pressure because of its reliable recovery. The only pokemon that can really pressure Gliscor are Set-Up mons but even those can be toxiced if Gliscor stays in and your opponent can just switch to a counter and then recover any lost hp on Gliscor later. While Ting-Lu could stay in on a few of the set up mons to ruination or whirlwind, if the mon attacked then Ting-Lu will take a big chunk of damage or get its lefties knocked off or get statused which will severely reduce its longevity. Gliscor abosrbs knock off and status and can recover off damage over team. Samurott-h's longevity is non existing and while you can't block its spikes, you can either take out or damage it and eventually take it down. Gliscor's problem is that it can just keep setting up spikes. Even if Ghold gets banned, Gliscor will toxic Tusk of switch in, EQ Hatt or the occasional Iron Threads and just passively recovering from any hit that's not boosted or super effective.

I dont claim this is a good meta, but at least now we have one option to not take hazard damage, Clef + Gliscor + 4 HDB, but in Home meta you had 0 options. Samurott would eventually set spikes, knock ur boots and beat your team. Which do you preffer ? A metagame with one option or one with 0?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Not just because you can run Gliscor for Gliscor, but because you can run Gliscor + Clef for literally any Spiker in the tier, from Samurott to Ting-Lu.

and you consider this a good thing? gliscor is practically invalidating the entire entry hazard on anything that isn't itself. that's part of the problem. gliscor is not a solution to the hazard meta, it's a problem so big that it eclipses the entire rest of the hazard meta just by existing. keeping it in the tier because we need reliable spikes checks is like trying to save a city from godzilla by summoning cthulhu

 

[Highv0ltag3]

and you consider this a good thing? gliscor is practically invalidating the entire entry hazard on anything that isn't itself. that's part of the problem. gliscor is not a solution to the hazard meta, it's a problem so big that it eclipses the entire rest of the hazard meta just by existing. keeping it in the tier because we need reliable spikes checks is like trying to save a city from godzilla by summoning cthulhu

Well yeah, Gliscor is saving a city from Gholdengzilla by not touching the ground.

 

[Schpoonman]

Why are we arguing for keeping broken mons in the tier to check other broken mons? This is not RBY or GSC. We have hundreds of fully evolved Pokemon that can and will be used to plug gaps and evolve the meta as we remove problem elements. No Pokemon is gluing the tier together the way Snorlax once did.

 

[CaptainSC]

1. Yeah, Manaphy doesn't like spikes, but Manaphy finds itself on more offensive teams, where spike setting opportunities are a lot more scarce.

2. Sure, you can go into something like Skeledirge. That's probably the only one I would honestly accept. The issue with Heatran is that Gliscor teams often cannot fit hazard removal and, thus, cannot fit a leftovers reliant mon (or a mon that just gets its balloon popped and taken out with spikes). As for Skeledirge, only knock off Gliscor makes you hate Skeledirge because with 2 turns of lefties and draining kiss on Skeledirge, you healed everything back up. Rinse and repeat for 16 earthquakes and now, Hatterene infinitely sits on Gliscor.

3. Corviknight isn't really that bad as people keep considering it as. It has good pivot and utility as well as serving a purpose as an early game Kingambit answer with rocky helmet and body press. It definitely has its uses, and if it was an unserious mon, it would literally not be in OU and, before you say that it's Gliscor's fault, it was still OU before Gliscor too. This isn't even a mon that's dodging UU right now like Landorus-T; it's consistently a top 20-25 mon. For reference, September's usage stats (before Gliscor) had Corviknight at #19, which is not bad at all, and currently, it's #21, which isn't bad either. I get this isn't an incredibly accurate representation of how good Corviknight is, but it should prove at the bare minimum that it isn't bad.

4. Personally, I do not like the moonlight sets and prefer the wish sets, but the moonlight sets that do exist can run moves like calm mind with leftovers to threaten even spdef Gliscor. Wish sets do not get PP stalled that easily, if at all.

5. I mean, heavy duty boots and offensive teams also exist. Neither of these care that much about hazards unless you have a good knock off user, which you probably have some way to absorb knock off, such as Corviknight, Clefable, your own Gliscor if you really wanted one, or potentially Great Tusk. Before you say that "Gliscor forces boots," Gliscor really doesn't; we've been doing the same before the DLC for the exact same reasons as right now.

1. and I'm saying manaphy just gets spiked on the switch and or knocked by gliscor if it has it. so manaphy isn't gonna be dealing with the gliscor long term and that offensive team. and throwing away a potent wincon just to throw at it to help check a support mon (which you don’t beat if u happen to get knocked of spiked on the switch) is insane justification.

2. that's just blatantly false. the fact that hatt just gets pressured when you're forced into eq. You're literally acting like hatt just comes in freely on every rocker/ spiker with 0 reprecussions. and the fact that you're just assuming you're gonna get every hatt 50/50 right is also baffling to me. which brings me back to the point that hatt is not an actual gliscor counter and is easy to wear down.

3. corv is 1000% an unserious mon when it comes to the gliscor MU. it's literally a sit around do nothing mon. all it does is pivot and let gliscor spike up for free. and if it's IP it cant fog away the spikes, and if it is fog + u-turn you just spike as one u-turns or get a free switch into a dangerous mon while it fogs away the hazards. which makes it easy fodder for any human being with half a braincell to leverage the free turns you get.

4. sure, mg clef still walls whether it be wish +protect or moonlight. each has its strengths and weaknesses

5. soooooooo, you are admitting that the entire tier is being warped around to the point that even offensive teams that would probably want to run other forms of boosting items or utility items are running full boots spam because of the effects of gliscor right? Another thing, notice how like the switch ins are extremely limited aka 3 whole ass mons that you've listen so graciously? don't you think that leads to free turns for someone to take advantage of?

Also check your receipts we have not been doing the same before the DLC. we were able to manage hazards to a certain degree. Since tusk wasn't forced into running ice spinner for gliscor which lets it run better moves like knock, eq, rocks spin. and with that + ace/ maus you were actually able to deal with hazards in a more consistent way than whatever the fuck state this meta is. now we have tusks that don't threaten gholds for shit because players would rather bite the bullet on hitting gliscor instead of balloon ghold for big damage.

 

[Pais]

It seems there's a general consensus that the current metagame is at its lowest point (I think it's unviable too as well

) , to the extent that some believe OMs formats might be more competitive than SV OU.
However, I think there's a misconception in blaming Gliscor and Gholdengo for the spike problem. This tier has been troubled from the start due to inadequate hazard control. The idea that removing Gliscor or Gholdengo would magically solve this issue is unrealistic. Corviknight remains unviable due to its passivity; even in the best scenarios, it can only use Defog once or twice before being overwhelmed. Great Tusk may not have to face the 50/50 against Gholdengo, but it still suffers from spike damage, and once weakened, it opens the door for Kingambit to sweep. Cinderace is still an always liked option but it promotes anyway the HDB spam.

Gliscor's role isn't radically different from the Ting Lu + Samurott strategy seen in the Pokemon Home metagame. It's simply a better version of that strategy. The disdain for Gliscor seems to stem from its impressive defensive capabilities, but is this truly a problem? Considering the numerous offensive threats capable of a 6-0 sweep at least on paper, it's nearly impossible to be fully prepared. Gliscor provides some much-needed balance, offering counterplay against a multitude of threats in the meta.

Gliscor's popularity is partly because it doesn't require Boots to avoid being crippled by Knock Off and hazard damage. It provides more viability to balanced teams in a way similar to Samurott and Ting Lu in the Pokemon Home meta, but with more tools to handle offensive teams. High-level tournaments and ladder play demonstrate the dominance of HO teams in this metagame.

Many see Gholdengo as the real issue. With Gliscor often being a superior choice for hazard setting, stall breaking, and making progress, teams have less room for a solid Ghost resist (you don't really use Ting Lu this much anymore). Kingambit isn't as effective against the typical Bulky Gholdengo set, especially when facing Make it Rain (then Gholdengo just will switch out and there are more mons that can position better on Kingambit in current meta) or a Terastalized Gholdengo. But would removing Gholdengo really solve the problem? It might, but it could also lead to calls for banning other powerful Pokémon like Valiant. Gholdengo's defensive profile also contributes to its overuse.

There's a perception that the metagame favors offense too heavily, exacerbated by the presence of Terastalization (Tera). Tera not only boosts the power of offensive Pokémon but also makes defensive ones harder to take down: we need a Tera Suspect. However, a suspect test on Spikes/Webs, and potentially on Boots, hasn't been seriously considered yet. Even without Gholdengo and Gliscor, the hazard problem will persist, potentially making Pokémon like Clefable more adaptable to spike spam.

In summary:

1. The tier is characterized by significant power creep, necessitating strong defensive Pokémon like Gliscor to counteract the offensive threats.
2. The tier suffers from poor hazard control. A suspect test for Spikes and Sticky Webs, and possibly for Heavy-Duty Boots, could be a viable solution.
3. Removing Terastalization might reduce both offensive and defensive power creep and encourage more skillful team building and gameplay, reminiscent of earlier generations like SM. The metagame's current state is partly due to Tera, and revisiting its role in a second suspect test seems fair, especially considering its narrow escape from being banned previously.

In conclusion, I'm inclined to vote against banning Gliscor (DO NOT BAN). I believe its absence won't significantly alter the metagame, which risks devolving into a situation similar to the Pokemon Home metagame. Different Pokémon might rise to prominence, but the fundamental dynamics of the game will likely remain unchanged, with teams being either hard HO or heavily reliant on Boots. Removing Gliscor will increase the Offensive Power Creep.

P.S: I really don't believe Gliscor is anyway this uncheckable there are a lot of water types + tera offensive options to outplay it and to force tera from your opponent, this is why I didn't focus a lot on this point in my post. Obviously yes, it requires effort to be checked but we can consider Gliscor annoying, not broken as people believe.

 

[Over Thinker]

It seems there's a general consensus that the current metagame is at its lowest point (I think it's unviable too as well

) , to the extent that some believe OMs formats might be more competitive than SV OU.
However, I think there's a misconception in blaming Gliscor and Gholdengo for the spike problem. This tier has been troubled from the start due to inadequate hazard control. The idea that removing Gliscor or Gholdengo would magically solve this issue is unrealistic. Corviknight remains unviable due to its passivity; even in the best scenarios, it can only use Defog once or twice before being overwhelmed. Great Tusk may not have to face the 50/50 against Gholdengo, but it still suffers from spike damage, and once weakened, it opens the door for Kingambit to sweep. Cinderace is still an always liked option but it promotes anyway the HDB spam.

Gliscor's role isn't radically different from the Ting Lu + Samurott strategy seen in the Pokemon Home metagame. It's simply a better version of that strategy. The disdain for Gliscor seems to stem from its impressive defensive capabilities, but is this truly a problem? Considering the numerous offensive threats capable of a 6-0 sweep at least on paper, it's nearly impossible to be fully prepared. Gliscor provides some much-needed balance, offering counterplay against a multitude of threats in the meta.

Gliscor's popularity is partly because it doesn't require Boots to avoid being crippled by Knock Off and hazard damage. It provides more viability to balanced teams in a way similar to Samurott and Ting Lu in the Pokemon Home meta, but with more tools to handle offensive teams. High-level tournaments and ladder play demonstrate the dominance of HO teams in this metagame.

Many see Gholdengo as the real issue. With Gliscor often being a superior choice for hazard setting, stall breaking, and making progress, teams have less room for a solid Ghost resist (you don't really use Ting Lu this much anymore). Kingambit isn't as effective against the typical Bulky Gholdengo set, especially when facing Make it Rain (then Gholdengo just will switch out and there are more mons that can position better on Kingambit in current meta) or a Terastalized Gholdengo. But would removing Gholdengo really solve the problem? It might, but it could also lead to calls for banning other powerful Pokémon like Valiant. Gholdengo's defensive profile also contributes to its overuse.

There's a perception that the metagame favors offense too heavily, exacerbated by the presence of Terastalization (Tera). Tera not only boosts the power of offensive Pokémon but also makes defensive ones harder to take down: we need a Tera Suspect. However, a suspect test on Spikes/Webs, and potentially on Boots, hasn't been seriously considered yet. Even without Gholdengo and Gliscor, the hazard problem will persist, potentially making Pokémon like Clefable more adaptable to spike spam.

In summary:

1. The tier is characterized by significant power creep, necessitating strong defensive Pokémon like Gliscor to counteract the offensive threats.
2. The tier suffers from poor hazard control. A suspect test for Spikes and Sticky Webs, and possibly for Heavy-Duty Boots, could be a viable solution.
3. Removing Terastalization might reduce both offensive and defensive power creep and encourage more skillful team building and gameplay, reminiscent of earlier generations like SM. The metagame's current state is partly due to Tera, and revisiting its role in a second suspect test seems fair, especially considering its narrow escape from being banned previously.

In conclusion, I'm inclined to vote against banning Gliscor (DO NOT BAN). I believe its absence won't significantly alter the metagame, which risks devolving into a situation similar to the Pokemon Home metagame. Different Pokémon might rise to prominence, but the fundamental dynamics of the game will likely remain unchanged, with teams being either hard HO or heavily reliant on Boots. Removing Gliscor will increase the Offensive Power Creep.

P.S: I really don't believe Gliscor is anyway this uncheckable there are a lot of water types + tera offensive options to outplay it and to force tera from your opponent, this is why I didn't focus a lot on this point in my post. Obviously yes, it requires effort to be checked but we can consider Gliscor annoying, not broken as people believe.

The main difference between Gliscor and Ting-Lu or Samu-H is that Gliscor has more longevity. With Ting-Lu you can make progress against them with damage and status. Gliscor is immune to status and can just recover off any damage by protecting a few turns. This means that spinning spikes or defoging them is basically useless because Gliscor will just put them back. At least With Ting-Lu and Samu you could wear them down over time and then you can keep the spikes of permanently. Gliscor is almost impossible to wear down so if you want to take it down you have to take it out immediately. Yes there are water types but thy must take spikes and Gliscor can just toxic them on the switch and can switch into a counter. Yes you can tera but having to tera just to beat one pokemon is a big commitment and is not a sign of the pokemon being healthy especially since they can also tera. It is like saying "You can just tera a volt absorb mon to beat Regieleki so it is not broken". Tera ban will only really make Gliscor more annoying as you can't tera ice to beat it. Also arguing that Tera or spikes should be banned is not the point of this thread and doesn't work for this argument. I could also bring up powerful potentially ban worthy pokemon like Manaphy and Oggerpon-W that beat Gliscor as a way to disprove them being checks but that doesn't work because there is no certainty that they will be banned. If in the near future gets banned and the DLC bring new pokemon with defog or gives defog to old pokemon then we can try bringing Gliscor back into the meta but for now we should focus on the current meta.

 

[Over Thinker]

I dont claim this is a good meta, but at least now we have one option to not take hazard damage, Clef + Gliscor + 4 HDB, but in Home meta you had 0 options. Samurott would eventually set spikes, knock ur boots and beat your team. Which do you preffer ? A metagame with one option or one with 0?

As I have said before you can eventually wear down Samu and Lu with damage, your own hazards or status. Gliscor is immune to spikes and status and can recover most of the hp it loses with a few protects. Lets say we ban Golden John Doe. Gliscor will just keep setting up spikes with only Corv being able to reliably remove them and not every team can afford to run Corv. Samu and Ting-Lu weren't as bad because they didn't have Gliscor's longevity and couldn't always afford to come back in and set up spikes.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Are there any Pokémon that 1v1 Gliscor and don't mind taking a knock or toxic? Clefable jumps out if it's no SpDef investment but nothing else comes to mind. I guess Gambit and Ghold since if it's spikes/toxic/knock/protect it can't earthquake.