Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Toxic [ Tiering Note Post #2 ]

[luckie]

However, I think there's a misconception in blaming Gliscor and Gholdengo for the spike problem. This tier has been troubled from the start due to inadequate hazard control. The idea that removing Gliscor or Gholdengo would magically solve this issue is unrealistic.

I do agree that ultimately in this format until we get more forms of hazard control, we'll be perpetually in a hazard centered meta. However, even though it wouldn't completely solve the issue, isn't this suspect and potential ban of Gliscor primarily meant to alleviate the issue? Opposed to solving it outright I mean.

Gliscor's role isn't radically different from the Ting Lu + Samurott strategy seen in the Pokemon Home metagame. It's simply a better version of that strategy.

Similar point I want to make here. Like you mentioned, hazards have already been something we've been accustomed to dealing with in SV, and the Gliscor hazard stacking is no different. But from what I've seen, what makes people up in arms to actually suspect isn't that Gliscor does something radically different, but the efficiency of how it does it. There's not much that can deter Gliscor from coming in and spitting out another layer of Spikes opposed to his competition, which is what makes him so damn oppressive in actual play. Simpling it down to "We've had this before, it's just a better version of that." imo is missing the point as to why so many people dislike the meta as it is now.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Why are we arguing for keeping broken mons in the tier to check other broken mons? This is not RBY or GSC. We have hundreds of fully evolved Pokemon that can and will be used to plug gaps and evolve the meta as we remove problem elements. No Pokemon is gluing the tier together the way Snorlax once did.

the most bizarre part of this is, since gliscor is basically the entire spikes meta at this point, people are arguing to keep gliscor in the tier because it checks… gliscor. this is the point in broken-checks-broken rhetoric where we are right now. how did we get here?

Are there any Pokémon that 1v1 Gliscor and don't mind taking a knock or toxic?

i can think of a great answer to gliscor! it's a flying-type, so it's immune to both spikes and eq, and it doesn't need to run boots because it's also a ground-type so it's neutral to rocks. it's also got poison heal, so it doesn't mind toxic, and it runs toxic orb so it doesn't mind knock off after turn 1. and this answer is…

bottom text. we all know what the best answer to gliscor is. get this thing out of the tier already, good lord

also, air balloon ngas geezing

 

[That_Dwayneee]

Are there any Pokémon that 1v1 Gliscor and don't mind taking a knock or toxic? Clefable jumps out if it's no SpDef investment but nothing else comes to mind. I guess Gambit and Ghold since if it's spikes/toxic/knock/protect it can't earthquake.

torn-t. it's immune to eq, can use taunt to block toxic, has regenerator so doesn't mind getting hit by toxic all that much, and uses it as setup fodder

 

[Star⭐]

Pokemon Home was definitely better than the current meta and I think a big reason was that Cinderace was a very reliable remover. If we go back to TingRott spam, at least Ace will be good again and teams that aren't 6x boots/immunes or HO can be run. Remember German Six? That team had three leftovers mons and the pivot ran a berry! Completely unthinkable today. Ace sucks into Glisc teams. It can't even wisp Glisc, dies to EQ, and can't break it without something ridiculous like Tera Blast Ice. Let's get rid of Glisc so at least Ace can bail us out for now. This will also discourage webs/veil spam.

 

[LovelyLuna]

Are there any Pokémon that 1v1 Gliscor and don't mind taking a knock or toxic? Clefable jumps out if it's no SpDef investment but nothing else comes to mind. I guess Gambit and Ghold since if it's spikes/toxic/knock/protect it can't earthquake.

You ideally want to scout if it's Knock or EQ, Steels/Poisons in general like the two you mentioned, Glowking, Sneasler, Glimmora, Iron Moth, Heatran can switch in fine. EQ variants being worse into Dondozo, Manaphy, and in general lose a lot of their options that force progress. We know Pokemon like Corv and Hatt are great into both, so if you're running them you are a lot less worried.

This is also only talking about pokemon that switch in on Gliscor, with a right call or pivot, you can bring in one of the many things that force Gliscor out and generate your own progress. There are also sub pokemon that can use Gliscor as set up fodder, sometimes baiting in a toxic. If you have a Grassy Terrain team, EQ variants may also struggle to threaten your set up mons. Who I'd note Gliscor is weak to in general, it can make a lot of progress on the field, like any great pokemon, but still has plenty that force it out and that can be abused.

To those weirdly running Knock / EQ, you're free to call it ladder bs and play just fine because they either lack toxic (any pokemon that doesn't care about its item in the tier) or spikes, which is pretty much 70% of this thread atp.

 

[zannty]

1. and I'm saying manaphy just gets spiked on the switch and or knocked by gliscor if it has it. so manaphy isn't gonna be dealing with the gliscor long term and that offensive team. and throwing away a potent wincon just to throw at it to help check a support mon (which you don’t beat if u happen to get knocked of spiked on the switch) is insane justification.

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 306-362 (86.9 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Manaphy OKHOs gliscor about 20% of the time. And if you have gotten some chip damage on gliscor it can easily KO it. If you are worried about spike damage run boots. That is what many defensive pokemon have been forced to run since the beginning of S/V. And this is not because of gliscor clearly since gliscor was not around at the beginning of S/V. As for your point about it getting knocked. I'm not sure what to say because trading a knocked item for a KO seems like a good trade for the player that got their item knocked. Lastly since I am sure this will come up, what if gliscor teras? Well now gliscor will be taking hazard damage on entry and 2 you traded an item for a tera, this still seems good to me.

2. that's just blatantly false. the fact that hatt just gets pressured when you're forced into eq. You're literally acting like hatt just comes in freely on every rocker/ spiker with 0 reprecussions. and the fact that you're just assuming you're gonna get every hatt 50/50 right is also baffling to me. which brings me back to the point that hatt is not an actual gliscor counter and is easy to wear down.

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 81-96 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 88-105 (25 - 29.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 42-49 (6.4 - 7.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Hatt heals as much as it takes with draining kiss. Ok lets say they switch to something like blissey. You still heal 6 from DK, and then 12 from lefties (the turn you come in and the turn you clicked draining kiss). So hatt only managed to take about 10% in that exchange. Also you taking chip damage means they are EQing. Which means they will have to predict your switch into hatt with an eq. If they toxic or clicked spikes or protect then nothing happened, hatt got a free switch and healed for 6% from lefties. If they have knock and knock your lefties, well now they don't have toxic. So something like great tusk can answer it easily.

3. corv is 1000% an unserious mon when it comes to the gliscor MU. it's literally a sit around do nothing mon. all it does is pivot and let gliscor spike up for free. and if it's IP it cant fog away the spikes, and if it is fog + u-turn you just spike as one u-turns or get a free switch into a dangerous mon while it fogs away the hazards. which makes it easy fodder for any human being with half a braincell to leverage the free turns you get.

18 | Corviknight | 10.20636% | 380536 | 11.133% | 308227 | 11.659%
14 | Corviknight | 10.76356% | 380536 | 11.133% | 308227 | 11.659% |

Corv runs pressure. Therefore corv will be able to defog more than spikes can get set up. And as for corv being an unserious mon, it had a 10% usage rating last month in battle over 1825. It was the 18th most common mon last month in battles above 1825. In battles above 1500 it had a roughly similar usage but was 14th. Your statement is just wrong. It is a serious mon.

Also check your receipts we have not been doing the same before the DLC. we were able to manage hazards to a certain degree. Since tusk wasn't forced into running ice spinner for gliscor which lets it run better moves like knock, eq, rocks spin. and with that + ace/ maus you were actually able to deal with hazards in a more consistent way than whatever the fuck state this meta is. now we have tusks that don't threaten gholds for shit because players would rather bite the bullet on hitting gliscor instead of balloon ghold for big damage.

So I dont think we were able to manage hazards predlc. Tusk still runs rapid spin 60% of the time, so it is still a fine hazard removal answer. Knock is still run 40% and ice spinner 67% of the time. Running a single move to adapt to a new metagame threat is perfectly fine. For example pex is now required to run haze post dlc to deal with things like manaphy. That does not mean manaphy is overpowered, just that the metagame has adapted. Gholdengo started running psyschock more. Gambit almost exclusively runs iron head now to deal with pokemon like clefable. Dozo runs tera dragon/grass to beat ogerpon wellspring. Does that mean blissey, clefable, manaphy, ogerpon wellspring are overpowered? No, it means the meta has adapted to a threat. Like it did with encore iron valiant and kingambit.

I also want to make a final point before I go on and talk about checks to gliscor (again). As I have read a lot of posts people are looking for a pokemon that answers a gliscor that is running toxic, knock off, earthquake, and sets up hazards. It cannot do all of these things. As with all other pokemon it can only learn 4 moves. It always runs protect. That leaves 3 moves left for you to worry about. It probably is running spikes so then it runs 2 of the last 3 moves (eq, knock off, and toxic). You do not need a single pokemon that can answer all of these different versions. Great Tusk is for example a great answer to the non toxic variants. I stand by hatt being a good answer to all versions but if you think its weak to the knock, eq versions, it still is good against the toxic versions since if its on EQ/toxic then hatt can recover most if not all of the health lost and if its on knock/toxic gliscor cant even really chip it at all (deals about 12% on knock after item is gone).

Ok now on to the counters/checks/switch ins
All versions (toxic/knockoff/EQ):
Corviknight (can switch in)
Tornadus Therian (can switch in)
Weavile (just KOs gliscor) (also before you call this a bad mon it did have 5% usage in games above 1825)
Hatterne (can switch in)
MG Clefable (can switch in)
Amoonguss (can switch in)
Manaphy
Greninja
Walking Wake
Samurott-Hisui
Dondozo (doesn't like getting knocked but honestly is fine if it does) (run avalanche to deal damage) (can switch in)
Rillaboom (deals massive damage and often forces a switch)
Slowking (icebeam)
Iron valiant (can pressure massive damage also run encore/taunt to shut it down and set up)
Ninetales-Alola (blizzard/freeze dry goes burrr)
Alomomola (can switch in and then pivot out to an answer that cannot switch in)

Toxic/EQ versions:
Air Balloon Gholdengo (Can switch in)
Air Balloon Heatran (Can switch in)

Toxic/Knock versions:
Kingambit (switch in)
Iron Moth (knock deals 20)
Slowking (icebeam) (can switch in)
Toxapex (can switch in)
Iron Treads (can switch in)
Snealser (can switch in)
Gholdengo
Heatran
Glimmora

EQ/Knock versions:
Great Tusk (Switch in)
Ogerpon Wellspring (switch in)
Rillaboom (can switch in)
Dragonite (can switch in) (ice spinner)
Enamorous(can switch in)

Edit: Edited to add (can switch in) for dozo and air balloon gholdengo since I forgot it.

 

[Shinto7654]

Okay actually, calling Weavile a Counter, Check, or switchin to Gliscor might be the funniest thing someone is unironically trying to push and argue right now. I love my switchin that takes over 50% minimum from an uninvested Earthquake and gets screwed over by a stray Knock Off, just absoolutely perfect and amazing counterplay to a Pokemon lmao. Just actually listing off Pokemon that can hit Gliscor hard or OHKO and acting like they're foolproof answers and an amazing argument, it's kinda amazing honestly

 

[zannty]

Okay actually, calling Weavile a Counter, Check, or switchin to Gliscor might be the funniest thing someone is unironically trying to push and argue right now. I love my switchin that takes over 50% minimum from an uninvested Earthquake and gets screwed over by a stray Knock Off, just absoolutely perfect and amazing counterplay to a Pokemon lmao. Just actually listing off Pokemon that can hit Gliscor hard or OHKO and acting like they're foolproof answers and an amazing argument, it's kinda amazing honestly

I did not call weavile a switch in. Notice I added (can switch in) to anything that can switch in. And it is a check. It koes gliscor at fulll hp in a single hit.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Spinner vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 460-544 (130.6 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also if you have a problem with weavile specifically thats fine. I still identified 20+ other pokemon that can deal with gliscor.

Also I was looking at pokemon that are OU or have OU usage in the top games, which weavile does have.

Edited to Add: https://www.smogon.com/stats/2023-10/gen9ou-1825.txt Here is the link for usage. I used a set criteria (OU or OU usage in top games). I did not just pick random ice type pokemon, but rather pokemon that are actually seeing OU play.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

snip

A: A lot of these pokemon can either not switch in effectively or not actually deal with gliscor. Of these, I counted 7 that couldn't deal much damage to it, and only 5 that can switch in WITHOUT being (very, none of them like Knock anyway) threatened (Corv Amoon Hatt Clef and Take Heart Manaphy). Amoongus and Corv are also on the list of "can't deal much damage to it", literally getting pp stalled with Giga Drain. This makes it an uphill battle to even get in against it because often, a toxic'd pokemon or a pokemon with its boots knocked is as good as dead in this chip-heavy meta.

B: Even if you successfully predict or pivot into a sweeper, it's still laid those spikes that are likely not going away even if you have hazard removal like Tusk or Corv because of the funny string cheese man, which makes it harder for those pokemon to switch in again and threaten it. That's the problem with Hatt, why it's not being seen as high as its counterpart Clef: it takes that spike + eq damage and it's only recovery is lefties and draining kiss, both of which are really weak. For a gliscor answer to be a gliscor answer, it has to have longevity to match gliscor's, which, shockingly enough, trying to outrecover a pheal mon with 8 million sources of chip damage is kinda hard.

so what is your list that's immune to all of this chip that also has recovery and can threaten Gliscor?
Calm Mind Clefable

Ban

 

[CaptainSC]

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 306-362 (86.9 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Yeah buddy nice one.... using a manaphy SURF calc to prove a point that gliscor cant stay in on the manaphy.

we're obv talking about what gliscor does on the switch in on this case since you should be able to check the glsicor without giving up much w a manaphy.

Unfortunatly, gliscor is really good at making manaphy do a shit job at sweeping or blowing up big holes by setting up and killing things since it can just chip it down with the spikes it sets down OR just knocks off it's item. REALLY reliable... throwing a threatening wallbreaker/ sweeper to help check a utility mon.

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 81-96 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 88-105 (25 - 29.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 42-49 (6.4 - 7.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Hatt heals as much as it takes with draining kiss. Ok lets say they switch to something like blissey. You still heal 6 from DK, and then 12 from lefties (the turn you come in and the turn you clicked draining kiss). So hatt only managed to take about 10% in that exchange. Also you taking chip damage means they are EQing. Which means they will have to predict your switch into hatt with an eq. If they toxic or clicked spikes or protect then nothing happened, hatt got a free switch and healed for 6% from lefties. If they have knock and knock your lefties, well now they don't have toxic. So something like great tusk can answer it easily.

First off, blissey is not a hatt switch in. Hatt runs psyshock all the time. and you'd have to be a sick fuck to risk your blissey getting getting hit hard esp with nerfed recovery pp if you play gliscor stall. and as for the traditional gliscor stall, 9 times out of 10 clef is the one that's gonna be switching in on the hatt which and lets say you get the draining kiss off. then now you're practically forced to stay in since clef has rocks and is pressuring you with hazards. uhoh it can just knock the hatt OR just click moonblast for FREE which makes that free fodder to wear down. or it can call your switch and rocks as you switch. which is why I keep saying the magic bounce mindgames are incredibly scewed in the attacker's favor. bc its either you let your hatt get chipped or allow hazards.

Like c'mon lets be honest a hatt without lefties is not living outlasting a gliscor. that mf is gonna live forever to keep pressuring spikes. hatt with lefties BARELY lives long enough to outlast gliscor without hazards up w lefties. and now imagine hatt without lefties trying to deal with it.

also there's plenty of other mons that just doesn't let hatt recover enough damage consistently that can even set rocks/ chip it like garg, heatran. and you have mons like garg that just feeds off of hatt since it's just free wisps or a free double in your favor since you can't afford to let your hatt get chipped down. Which drives me to the point that NO hatt is NOT the all encompassing gliscor counter that you wish it is.

18 | Corviknight | 10.20636% | 380536 | 11.133% | 308227 | 11.659%
14 | Corviknight | 10.76356% | 380536 | 11.133% | 308227 | 11.659% |

Corv runs pressure. Therefore corv will be able to defog more than spikes can get set up. And as for corv being an unserious mon, it had a 10% usage rating last month in battle over 1825. It was the 18th most common mon last month in battles above 1825. In battles above 1500 it had a roughly similar usage but was 14th. Your statement is just wrong. It is a serious mon.

aye myb if u misunderstood what I'm saying that. I meant to say that corv is just not a serious counter to gliscor nor it's teams. A. if gliscor has a ghold as a teammate then it's just relegated to u-turn duties. and if it's doesn't have a ghold it just forces really free turns as you can A bring in a big hitter or just a different Knock user as it fogs if its the u-turn fog set. and it's the IP set then it has to choose between fog and u-turn so it either becomes spikes fodder or just a momentum sink.

obv corv has usage and viability, it helps check gambit w bpress and provides a stop gap that doesn't immediately faulter to gliscor, (DESPITE IT BEING EASY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF)

So I dont think we were able to manage hazards predlc. Tusk still runs rapid spin 60% of the time, so it is still a fine hazard removal answer. Knock is still run 40% and ice spinner 67% of the time. Running a single move to adapt to a new metagame threat is perfectly fine. For example pex is now required to run haze post dlc to deal with things like manaphy. That does not mean manaphy is overpowered, just that the metagame has adapted. Gholdengo started running psyschock more. Gambit almost exclusively runs iron head now to deal with pokemon like clefable. Dozo runs tera dragon/grass to beat ogerpon wellspring. Does that mean blissey, clefable, manaphy, ogerpon wellspring are overpowered? No, it means the meta has adapted to a threat. Like it did with encore iron valiant and kingambit.

you do realize that we were MUCH better when it came to dealing with hazard control pre-dlc because tusk wasn't forced into running ice spinner right? cus ya know knock off provided a good midgroud that hit the balloon ghold hard enough to the point that it would actually fucking die to eq after it got knocked? unlike ice spinner which doesn't do enough to ghold to actually put it into ghold range for defensive tusk? and the whole point of running spin tusk is to have role compression by getting your rocker AND spinner that happens to help check king gambit at the same time.


Now with your other point. our metagame has fucking evolved. it evolved into boots spammed to shit just so that you don't get bowled over by gliscor semistall, balance, offense or whatever the fuck it may be. as much as you want to deny gliscor's effect it doesn't change the fact that hazard stacking was THIS bad. (I do think ghold is more of the problem but that's besides the point) And it doesn't change the fact that gliscor is just an unhealthy element to the metagame.

 

[zannty]

A: A lot of these pokemon can either not switch in effectively or not actually deal with gliscor. Of these, I counted 7 that couldn't deal much damage to it, and only 5 that can switch in WITHOUT being (very, none of them like Knock anyway) threatened (Corv Amoon Hatt Clef and Take Heart Manaphy). Amoongus and Corv are also on the list of "can't deal much damage to it", literally getting pp stalled with Giga Drain. This makes it an uphill battle to even get in against it because often, a toxic'd pokemon or a pokemon with its boots knocked is as good as dead in this chip-heavy meta.

Dozo you also forgot. Ohh and ghold and heatran. You are asking for switch ins, but for what set? I already explained that toxic, eq, and knock are not all run. 2 of the 3 are. And you can scout to see what the moves are. Different sets have different switch ins. If its EQ and toxic, you dont have to worry about knock. If its knock and toxic you don't have to worry about EQ. If its EQ and knock you don't have to worry about toxic. Iron valiant works as both a physical, mixed, and special attacker with many different sets. There is maybe 1 switch in for most sets (not all though) which is pex. Different sets require different answers. You are looking for a poke that deals with all 3 moves when it only ever runs 2. Also you mentioned amoonguss can't deal that much damage. That is true, but with synthesis you can just PP stall it out of EQs. And you can also use it to scout.

B: Even if you successfully predict or pivot into a sweeper, it's still laid those spikes that are likely not going away even if you have hazard removal like Tusk or Corv because of the funny string cheese man, which makes it harder for those pokemon to switch in again and threaten it. That's the problem with Hatt, why it's not being seen as high as its counterpart Clef: it takes that spike + eq damage and it's only recovery is lefties and draining kiss, both of which are really weak. For a gliscor answer to be a gliscor answer, it has to have longevity to match gliscor's, which, shockingly enough, trying to outrecover a pheal mon with 8 million sources of chip damage is kinda hard.

Or it could just okho gliscor. That also works...

you do realize that we were MUCH better when it came to dealing with hazard control pre-dlc because tusk wasn't forced into running ice spinner right? cus ya know knock off provided a good midgroud that hit the balloon ghold hard enough to the point that it would actually fucking die to eq after it got knocked? unlike ice spinner which doesn't do enough to ghold to actually put it into ghold range for defensive tusk? and the whole point of running spin tusk is to have role compression by getting your rocker AND spinner that happens to help check king gambit at the same time.

You can still run knock off on an ice spinner set. Knock, rapid spin, ice spinner, and headlong rush. That can deal with ghold while running ice spinner.

Yeah buddy nice one.... using a manaphy SURF calc to prove a point that gliscor cant stay in on the manaphy.

Surf is used on manaphy 37.581% of the time. Its not that uncommon. Scald is 61%.


As I have stated a few times now lets only 2 of knock off, toxic, and EQ. Now I will go indepth with calcs for most of my pokes listed before.

Corviknight (can switch in on all) Can clear hazards. Has some trouble pressuring gliscor. Roost gives it nice longevity
Tornadus Therian (can switch in) use gliscor to set up with NP and then threaten gliscor. Has longevity with regenerator. Doesn't mind toxic too much. Knock + toxic is probably the best glicor set against this but then you have other answers.
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Bleakwind Storm vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 363-427 (103.1 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dondozo (doesn't like getting knocked but honestly is fine if it does) (run avalanche to deal damage) (can switch in) Rest heals toxic.
0 Atk Dondozo Avalanche vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 216-256 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal (if hit with an attack)
0 Atk Dondozo Avalanche vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 112-132 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 52.8% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal (not hit by an attack)
Hatterne (can switch in) (prevent hazards) (I still think its a decent counter. I don't want to argue it anymore but wanted to include it here for completion sakes.) (recovery with leftovers and draining kiss)
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 81-96 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 88-105 (25 - 29.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal
MG Clefable (can switch in) (we all agree here)
Amoonguss (can switch in) (trouble doing damage, but honestly can just PP stall gliscor)
Manaphy - 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 306-362 (86.9 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO. Take heart sets also can run sleep talk and rest.
Greninja - 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 408-484 (115.9 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Walking Wake - 244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 474-558 (134.6 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Weavile (Ohkos gliscor and outspeeds)
Ninetales-Alola (blizzard/freeze dry goes burrr) 0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 316-376 (89.7 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Slowking galar One hit kos, has recovery with regenerator and does not take toxic and survives EQ
0 SpA Slowking-Galar Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 352-416 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 170-204 (43.1 - 51.7%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO

If they are not running knock off:
Air Balloon Gholdengo Untouchable and can set up and KO with MIR, shadowball, etc
Air Balloon Heatran Untouchable and can trap and ko with magma storm

If they are not running EQ
Kingambit can set up on gliscor. Honestly doesnt mind lefties being knock too much
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 195-229 (55.3 - 65%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal (0 allies fainted)
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 28-34 (8.2 - 9.9%) -- ( with the item)
Toxapex has trouble dealing damage but cant be touch much at without EQ from gliscor
Iron Treads (can switch in)
Snealser can set up infront of it
Gholdengo can set up infront of it. Recover, NP, KO
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 140-166 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO (with item)
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 94-112 (29.8 - 35.5%) -- 22.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 249-294 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal (non boosted)
Heatran can trap it
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 169-199 (48 - 56.5%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal and trapping damage
Glimmora 252 SpA Glimmora Power Gem vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 163-193 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

If not on toxic
Great Tusk 252 Atk Great Tusk Icicle Crash vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 232-276 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Dragonite 252+ Atk Dragonite Icicle Crash vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 260-308 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Ok, a final explanation. If they are bold they have recovery. If they are italicized they can set up on gliscor taking advantage of it. If they are underlined they can ohko gliscor. There are some checks/counters/switchins that are for specific sets. Do not say they do not work unless you are talking about the sets I am talking about. Otherwise we are arguing 2 different things and it is unproductive.

As a final takeaway:
Dozo, clef, torn can basically switch in to any set, pressure gliscor/set up and don't lose too much regardless of the set (also before you say but they can knock it, any knock off user can knock on a switch in. The fact that it can knock is not enough. Iron valiant, great tusk, ogerpon all can knock off you checks/counters item). All three of these mons also have recovery to help its longevity.
Alot of pokemon can pressure it once it is in. Manaphy, WW, slowking galar, ninetails aloa, greninja, and weavile. Of these slowking is of note since it has recovery to help match gliscors longevity.
And finally certain sets have some pokemon that hard answer them like dragonite (which has longevity because of roost) and tusk for the non toxic versions and air balloon heatran and gholdengo (ghold even gets recovery) for the non knock version.

There are more answers than just MG clef. Dozo for example is another good answer to gliscor. If you would like to discuss any of these I welcome the discussion, but please talk specifics instead of just saying a general "6 don't have longevity". Please lets have a real and productive conversation, instead of short 1 line posts that don't explain anything.

 

[658Greninja]

Where were all these "Spikes are broken, pls nerf" people when Samurott-H + Gholdengo was the meta?

"Oh, it´s too easy to set spikes up with Gliscor, let´s ban it!"

We literally had a metagame defined around a Pokemon capable of setting Spikes with an attack before Gliscor showed up, and you are complaining about it now?

"Gliscor forces most teams to spam HDB"

Oh yeah, as if we didn´t have the same during Home meta, and the Ghold + Samurott infestation of the metagame was so big that Wo-Chien was literally meta at top Ladder during OLT just because it cteamed this Boots Hrott + Boots Ghold + Boots Zama + Boots Gambit + Boots Gking teams.

The hipocrisy is starting to become evident, a lot of people in this thread don´t disapprove of Gliscor because of the hazard problem, they simply hate it´s defensive profile.

The issues with Ghold and Spikes have always been around, but Gliscor has made them more apparent. It’s defensive profile is exactly what has us suspecting it. Hamu might be crazy, but it is also frail and can be beaten in the long-term. Gliscor can pretty much outlast every little form of hazard removal we have off it’s longevity, Toxic, and typing alone. Banning Gliscor would not immediately solve our hazard issue, but Gliscor is on here off of being a pain in the ass to switch into and threaten. Banning Ghold would open up Defoggers like Mandibuzz and Corv who could beat Hamu and Ting-Lu 1v1, but right now the focus is on Gliscor.

 

[Haziebien]

I would like this banned because Gliscor matches are not fun. It's not really that overpowered, but having to deal with it in the teambuilder is straight up annoying. Even if Gholdengo were to be banned after this, it has such amazing longevity that it can get up spikes again and again while chipping away at your team. Additionally, you can sometimes get the Gliscor vs. Gliscor matchups that are miserable to play.

 

[quacc]

Pokemon Home was definitely better than the current meta and I think a big reason was that Cinderace was a very reliable remover. If we go back to TingRott spam, at least Ace will be good again and teams that aren't 6x boots/immunes or HO can be run. Remember German Six? That team had three leftovers mons and the pivot ran a berry! Completely unthinkable today. Ace sucks into Glisc teams. It can't even wisp Glisc, dies to EQ, and can't break it without something ridiculous like Tera Blast Ice. Let's get rid of Glisc so at least Ace can bail us out for now. This will also discourage webs/veil spam.

German Six was good because Baxcalibur was a strong mon that could genuinely rip through hazard stack teams at the time; not because it relied on Cinderace to remove hazards. Also, the team had a Great Tusk as well...

The reason why Cinderace isn't as good as a hazard remover isn't that Gliscor switches in and sets them back up, rather that it was always flawed from the start by not being able to pull its weight as a hazard remover after one court change; this was an issue in pre-DLC too, but at least there were broken wallbreakers like Baxcalibur that made hazard stack teams struggle a teeny bit more. Fun!

What I'm trying to say is that most Cinderace teams at the time partnered with a second hazard removal option, such as Great Tusk, and that Cinderace really did not shine that much against Ting-Lu + Samurott-H cores as you'd think.

Cinderace has a great matchup into hazards leads in general, which is what it's good at; being able to quickly remove hazards against hyper offense builds.

What Cinderace does struggle at is keeping hazards off; yeah, I could court change these spikes, but non-sash Samurott-H and Ting-Lu would just switch in and set them up again. Cinderace is a reliable ONE TIME removal option, but a poor multiple time hazard removal option.

That's why a lot of good teams with Cinderace either partner with a second hazard removal option, an offensive team that can afford to only need hazard removal once, or a boots spam team that, unironically, would look and play out like one of those pivot spam hazard stack teams. German Six fits two of these three criteria as an offensive team with two removal options.

Cinderace isn't even a bad mon because, well, what it does well is playing against hyper offense teams, which are relatively common.

In fact, Cinderace is the exact same spot on the viability ranking as it was pre-DLC; A tier.

Also, veil teams are a lot less common because almost all of the broken abusers have gotten banned.

Okay actually, calling Weavile a Counter, Check, or switchin to Gliscor might be the funniest thing someone is unironically trying to push and argue right now. I love my switchin that takes over 50% minimum from an uninvested Earthquake and gets screwed over by a stray Knock Off, just absoolutely perfect and amazing counterplay to a Pokemon lmao. Just actually listing off Pokemon that can hit Gliscor hard or OHKO and acting like they're foolproof answers and an amazing argument, it's kinda amazing honestly

I shouldn't have to explain why this is an unserious post. Yes, one shotting something is indeed a way for something to check another; trying to belittle an argument will NOT change that fact. Also, I think you should brush up on what a check is, because Weavile does beat it 1v1 with a free switch. Hell, it beats it in even with ONE hard switch; the fact that it doesn't get one shot makes it an even better check.

For a gliscor answer to be a gliscor answer, it has to have longevity to match gliscor's, which, shockingly enough, trying to outrecover a pheal mon with 8 million sources of chip damage is kinda hard.

"Guys, Garganacl is broken because it outlasts Great Tusk! Great Tusk is not an answer. The only answer to Garganacl is haze covert cloak Toxapex, covert cloak clear smog Amoonguss, and covert cloak iron defense Corviknight, which are all unserious answers because they run a bad item! Ban this completely broken mon."

 

[xgermx]

I actually got reqs, and i did the suspect test WITHOUT using Gliscor on my team since i played around with it quite a bit before trying for the reqs. My opinion is pretty much the same.

TLDR: even if Gliscor makes progress every time it switches in, i can just do more progress by using it as fodder. It is frustrating, but not broken.

So, the team i used for the suspect was this https://pastebin.com/kWtXLv5b
I wanted to try using Gliscor as setup fodder, so i put in 3 different mons that can setup on it. You don't need 3, but i do admit that you probably want 2 mons able to pressure/1v1 Gliscor in your team, but that's not a hard requirement on teambuilding because there are quite a few.
Note that i only run 2 HDB, and that's for rocks, not spikes.

Tera Steel Great Tusk: i copied it from an opponent after i got swept by it. I can setup on any kind of Gliscor as long as it doesn't switch into toxic and it can run away with the game against some teams, and still do quite a bit of damage against most teams. You bait the toxic on the tera steel, effectively getting a free bulk up. Then quite a few people will waste a turn using earthquake before realizing they don't do enough damage. If they knock off your leftovers, just say thanks because that's pretty much a second free turn of setup.
At the same time, this set doesn't have many problems removing hazards in the face of gholdengo. You can 1v1 most gholdengo, even baloon variants. There were a few games where i couldn't remove hazards, but that was usually hyper offense with sticky web or some spikes from h-samurott.

Double Dance Manaphy: this just wins the game alone sometimes. I don't know, some teams are just not prepared. And Gliscor just makes it easier because it is a passive mon that gives you a bit of free setup. It can knock off, and while that can ruin the 6-0 sweep, you can adjust to just take out a few mons, dismantling the opposing team.

Ogerpon water: this is pretty much everywhere and i kind of think it is broken. But yeah, this will probably not kill Gliscor, but you will likely end up KOing 2 of its teammates, which seems pretty good to me. If you enter on EQ or spikes or knock off, great, you can do it as many times as you want thanks to horn leach. If you get hit by toxic, whatever. You can still sword dance and hit whatever comes in with ivy cudgel or u-turn. You can do this enough times to KO whatever is supposed to be the opposing team's ogerpon switch in. Even Corv goes down to an unboosted cudgel plus a boosted cudgel.
It doesn't matter if your Ogerpon doesn't take down Gliscor. If Gliscor runs away, you just take out the rest of the team and then after Ogerpon goes down for the poison you should have something that can 1v1 Gliscor.
Since Ogerpon is so common and to 1v1 Gliscor is pretty easy when you don't really have to mind switching, i don't think this is really restrictive on teambuilding.

Also, Gliscor technically beats Heatran, but it has a surprinsingly hard time switching in on it because magma storm denies the healing from the poison. Even worse if it wasn't poisoned yet. And it can't really guarantee being faster than heatran. I am talking about not SpA investment heatran vs physically defensive gliscor, specially defensive gliscor is kind of harder, even an offensive heatran has a low chance to 2hko if it is already poisoned. But if there is grassy terrain, then Gliscor can't even OHKO back. Worst case scenario, if your team is really weak to Gliscor you can tera your Heatran to beat it, it is trapped anyway.

I actually found H-samurott way more annoying than Gliscor, escpecially the sash one. One more thing is that Gliscor is often used as a lead to avoid funny incidents the first time it switches in, and it kind of sucks. Ogerpon is a great lead and learns knock off. Many other leads learn knock off. Which means Gliscor is forced to protect first turn, and you start the game with a free turn which is great, usually for a sword dance/bulk up/whatever.

Overall, i had no trouble with Gliscor, kind of obvious since i overprepared since i wanted to test stuff. But preparing for Gliscor didn't really affect my team against other matchups, i think. Also, none of my pokemon were incredibly specific answers for Gliscor. The only original set is Tusk, everything else is straight from smogon. And i am not even good at teambuilding, i am sure others can play something similar.
Also, it was not HO, not stall, and not balance with 5HDB.

Last thing: stuff i felt while using Gliscor.
I don't like lead Gliscor and i found that switching it in for the first time mid game can be slightly tricky. You can get hit by a knock off from something you though didn't carry it, you can get hit by a knock off because of a misprediction, or you can get hit by some very random status because you ended up switching into a dire claw, scald, unexpected wisp, body slam, whatever. Yeah, you can take your time for a safe switch in but then you are playing with 5 pokemon and gliscor could very well be important for your defense since it has good typing.

Also, i really felt that i wanted the bulk of physically defensive gliscor and specially defensive Gliscor at the same time. I settled for the specially defensive one, and damn, once i got one shotted by an ice spinned from a great tusk. Rillaboom can also one shot you. Most sword dancers beat you, and even stuff like dragon dance pokemon can get past you, unlike the physically defensive one. And you still don't really like getting hit by strong special attackers.
The physically defensive one is just sad:
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 331-390 (94 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Dragapult Dragon Pulse vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 144-171 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal (this one often has sub)
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Dragon Pulse vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 252-297 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal (in case gliscor uses the Tera, or the walking wake just wants neutral damage on everything)

 

[Srn]

Replying to Stall edition go go go

You just go back to samurott-H + Gholdengo or Ting-Lu + Gholdengo and are still forced to run 6x boots teams, except this time you have Clefable as an option. Banning Gliscor doesn´t solve the hazard issue. If we truly want to solve it, we have to cut it´s root, which we all know is Gholdengo.

Yes, this is a good thing. No single ban "solves" the hazard issue, banning Gliscor helps.

Regarding Pokemon capable of Killing Gliscor, you focus on the lower presence of Ice Types this generation and completely ignore the fact that there are more Water Types in OU this generation than in generation 8. You didn´t have Manaphy, Samurott-H, Walking Wake and Greninja back in gen 8 but do now. Obviously none of these are switch-ins, but neither would they be against SS Landorus-T, so that argument is redundant when we compare both. Also, you completely ignore the notion that, while Gliscor has more longevity than Lando (even tho Lando is Physically bulkier via Intimidate), this increase in longevity is basically compensating for this Generation´s absurd increase in Power Creep. I like to think of it as your salary increasing to compensate for inflation, your buypower stays the same. You also mention Great Tusk Cinderace and Corviknight as hazard control options that lose to Gliscor or Gliscor + Gholdengo in the long term, and completely ignore the fact that Hatterene exists and shuts down spikes sets with ease.

To conclude, you don´t say anything incorrect in your post, but you omit too many crucial opposing arguments, making your post clearly biased around what you actually like to play with, as opposed to the tools the tier actually has.

None of these water/ice types beat Gliscor long term. They get toxic'd, knock'd worn down by hazards and eventually lose.

Hatterene is eating a Knock Off/EQ and taking 18/28%, clicking draining kiss into something like Skeledirge/Gholdengo and healing 8%, and allowing that mon to make slow but steady progress vs your team. This isn't the good exchange you think it is. It is losing long-term, just like everything else.

Where were all these "Spikes are broken, pls nerf" people when Samurott-H + Gholdengo was the meta?

"Oh, it´s too easy to set spikes up with Gliscor, let´s ban it!"

We literally had a metagame defined around a Pokemon capable of setting Spikes with an attack before Gliscor showed up, and you are complaining about it now?

"Gliscor forces most teams to spam HDB"

Oh yeah, as if we didn´t have the same during Home meta, and the Ghold + Samurott infestation of the metagame was so big that Wo-Chien was literally meta at top Ladder during OLT just because it cteamed this Boots Hrott + Boots Ghold + Boots Zama + Boots Gambit + Boots Gking teams.

The hipocrisy is starting to become evident, a lot of people in this thread don´t disapprove of Gliscor because of the hazard problem, they simply hate it´s defensive profile.

I have been hating on this meta at every step of this meta, vocally, and Hammy+Ghold was better than now. You can complain all you want about the attack that sets spikes, but the fact remains that Hammy is slow, frail, reliant on boots which limits its power+speed, and constantly praying it does not proc Static. Hammy is actually like 18x easier to handle than Gliscor is.

More defensive teams than ever have been forced to spam HDB because even mons like Cinderace are completely ineffective in front of Gliscor. Wo-Chien adaptation btw? You are not going to hear me defending that meta, it was trash, but the current one is even worse.

I would advise you to take a step back and ask yourself: is Samurott-Hisui ACTUALLY giving you more trouble than Gliscor? If the answer is yes, try offense.

If the argument you want to make is that "Gliscor is broken defensively and not as a support Pokémon", you have to prove it. Remember this mon doesn't even have direct recovery, it's Protect recovery attempts can be exploited with Set-Up moves, and it's bulk isn't anything crazy for OU level. It's special bulk is still average and it's physical bulk falls short of Ting-Lu, Dondozo and other walls. Now go ahead, explain to me why Gliscor is broken defensively.

Defensive pokemon are broken because of how limiting they are on the teambuilder. Nobody thinks pokemon like slowbro are broken, even though it has solid bulk and slack off and regen, because raw bulk+longevity are not the only things that make a mon defensively broken. Gliscor's stranglehold on the hazard metagame, it efficiency of getting and keeping up spikes, its strong MU vs all hazard removal, and its strong ways of making progress long term vs every team while requiring minimal support and no tera is what makes it broken, and that cannot be said about any other mon in the meta rn.

I made a post on this subject earlier. Assuming Gholdengo stays, it is better for the metagame for Gliscor to stay, than to get banned. Since if it gets banned it merely gets replaced by Samurott or Ting-Lu as a spiker, but if it stays, at least you can run your own Gliscor + Clef + HDB spam structures to beat Gholdengo + Gliscor structures. I don´t think people realize this, but debating about a Gliscor ban assuming Gholdengo stays, is similar to debating if the Pokemon Home meta was better than the current one, which it wasn´t, despite the current one not being very good either.

Why is Gliscor+Clef+Bootspam structures beating other hstacks all of a sudden? Are Gliscor and Clefable suddenly tanking Aqua Cutters and Hexes from Hammy+Ghold structures? In my view, I think that keeping Gliscor is not going to make your original complaints go away (hammy), it just gives hammy competition. In other words, it seems like you just want more broken mons to ensure that other broken mons don't get usage, which is...not how we do tiering. We ban all broken mons, not keep them.

I dont claim this is a good meta, but at least now we have one option to not take hazard damage, Clef + Gliscor + 4 HDB, but in Home meta you had 0 options. Samurott would eventually set spikes, knock ur boots and beat your team. Which do you preffer ? A metagame with one option or one with 0?

Home meta was a dogshit broken checks broken meta, dlc1 is a dogshit broken checks broken meta, and a choice between these is not a choice at all. We ban all broken mons and improve past home, past dlc1, past every other shit meta, and we start with Gliscor. We can move on to Ghold, Hammy, Ting-Lu, w/e the fuck you want later, but we start with Gliscor.

Not just because you can run Gliscor for Gliscor, but because you can run Gliscor + Clef for literally any Spiker in the tier, from Samurott to Ting-Lu. People fail to realize that if we go back to a similar meta to Pokemon Home, all that the old Samurott + Ghold teams need to add to destroy hdb spam teams is literally just a knocker that beats Clef. However, with both of them in the tier, Samurott + Ghold structures arent dominant any more, not just because Gliscor outclasses Samurott, but because they need a knocker that beats both Clef and Gliscor.

If you can run Gliscor+Clefable for Hammy, then why are you complaining about Hammy? Because Gliscor wasn't a hammy check, so again, what difference would it make if Gliscor gets banned or not? It makes no sense to me that you are afraid of Hammy spikestacks but you want to keep Gliscor, as if that saves you? Ultimately, is Hammy not already a knocker that beats both Clef and Gliscor? Hammy just clicks Tera Water Aqua Cutter and cuts down both, can you afford to go Tera water resist on Clefable and then expose yourself to Tera Dark CE's?

Corviknight (can switch in on all) Can clear hazards. Has some trouble pressuring gliscor. Roost gives it nice longevity
Tornadus Therian (can switch in) use gliscor to set up with NP and then threaten gliscor. Has longevity with regenerator. Doesn't mind toxic too much. Knock + toxic is probably the best glicor set against this but then you have other answers.
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Bleakwind Storm vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 363-427 (103.1 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dondozo (doesn't like getting knocked but honestly is fine if it does) (run avalanche to deal damage) (can switch in) Rest heals toxic.
0 Atk Dondozo Avalanche vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 216-256 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal (if hit with an attack)
0 Atk Dondozo Avalanche vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 112-132 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 52.8% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal (not hit by an attack)
Hatterne (can switch in) (prevent hazards) (I still think its a decent counter. I don't want to argue it anymore but wanted to include it here for completion sakes.) (recovery with leftovers and draining kiss)
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 81-96 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 88-105 (25 - 29.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal
MG Clefable (can switch in) (we all agree here)
Amoonguss (can switch in) (trouble doing damage, but honestly can just PP stall gliscor)
Manaphy - 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 306-362 (86.9 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO. Take heart sets also can run sleep talk and rest.
Greninja - 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 408-484 (115.9 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Walking Wake - 244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 474-558 (134.6 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Weavile (Ohkos gliscor and outspeeds)
Ninetales-Alola (blizzard/freeze dry goes burrr) 0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 316-376 (89.7 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Slowking galar One hit kos, has recovery with regenerator and does not take toxic and survives EQ
0 SpA Slowking-Galar Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 352-416 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 170-204 (43.1 - 51.7%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO

If they are not running knock off:
Air Balloon Gholdengo Untouchable and can set up and KO with MIR, shadowball, etc
Air Balloon Heatran Untouchable and can trap and ko with magma storm

If they are not running EQ
Kingambit can set up on gliscor. Honestly doesnt mind lefties being knock too much
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 195-229 (55.3 - 65%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal (0 allies fainted)
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 28-34 (8.2 - 9.9%) -- ( with the item)
Toxapex has trouble dealing damage but cant be touch much at without EQ from gliscor
Iron Treads (can switch in)
Snealser can set up infront of it
Gholdengo can set up infront of it. Recover, NP, KO
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 140-166 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO (with item)
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 94-112 (29.8 - 35.5%) -- 22.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 249-294 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal (non boosted)
Heatran can trap it
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 169-199 (48 - 56.5%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal and trapping damage
Glimmora 252 SpA Glimmora Power Gem vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 163-193 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

If not on toxic
Great Tusk 252 Atk Great Tusk Icicle Crash vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 232-276 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Dragonite 252+ Atk Dragonite Icicle Crash vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 260-308 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Ok, a final explanation. If they are bold they have recovery. If they are italicized they can set up on gliscor taking advantage of it. If they are underlined they can ohko gliscor. There are some checks/counters/switchins that are for specific sets. Do not say they do not work unless you are talking about the sets I am talking about. Otherwise we are arguing 2 different things and it is unproductive.

As a final takeaway:
Dozo, clef, torn can basically switch in to any set, pressure gliscor/set up and don't lose too much regardless of the set (also before you say but they can knock it, any knock off user can knock on a switch in. The fact that it can knock is not enough. Iron valiant, great tusk, ogerpon all can knock off you checks/counters item). All three of these mons also have recovery to help its longevity.
Alot of pokemon can pressure it once it is in. Manaphy, WW, slowking galar, ninetails aloa, greninja, and weavile. Of these slowking is of note since it has recovery to help match gliscors longevity.
And finally certain sets have some pokemon that hard answer them like dragonite (which has longevity because of roost) and tusk for the non toxic versions and air balloon heatran and gholdengo (ghold even gets recovery) for the non knock version.

There are more answers than just MG clef. Dozo for example is another good answer to gliscor. If you would like to discuss any of these I welcome the discussion, but please talk specifics instead of just saying a general "6 don't have longevity". Please lets have a real and productive conversation, instead of short 1 line posts that don't explain anything.

Let's talk about all these supposed checks

fake news

Corviknight in practice is getting Knocked Off, eating a Sticky Barb from clefable (gliscor's most common partner) and losing long term to Gliscor, Pressure is irrelevant when you are being forced to use up your Roosts as your health is evaporating and Gliscor is healing lol.

Torn-T is getting Knocked, Toxic'd, eating Stealth Rock, and has basically no longevity unless it wants to spam nothing but U-turn. NP+Taunt sets cannot fit knock off and cannot break past common special walls like Milotic or Stoss Blissey after eating Toxic+Knock, and 4 attacks sets with Knock will be stonewalled by Clefable sets or fail to even pressure Gliscor through protects as toxic damage racks up. In practice, another fake answer.

Dondozo hates being knocked, takes full layers of hazards damage, forced to rest easily and is incredibly passive and useless vs every Gliscor team at this point.

Hatterene eats a Knock Off, loses leftovers, fails to recover back that damage with Draining Kiss when something like Skeledirge comes in and starts making progress vs your team. Hell, Clefable can also come in and pass you a Sticky Barb after you Draining Kiss and boom, your hatterene is fucking toast, Gliscor will easily win long term and get up Spikes eventually. Fake answer in practice.

MG Clefable can switch in but is it really preventing Spikes from going up? Nope, that shit is getting up all day, I sure hope your whole team is hazard proof otherwise you're toast. Also hope your clefable is wish+protect (leaving you with 1 moveslot to do anything) otherwise Earthquake will break through you eventually.

Amoongus gets its HDB knocked off, eats max layers, Regen starts to fail you, doesn't prevent Spikes from going up, honestly very confused as to why this is being considered a Gliscor response in any way. Even if you pack some wack tech like Worry Seed, you are still incredibly passive and easy to switch into by Gliscor's teammates like Gholdengo, Mandibuzz, etc.

Manaphy gets its crucial leftovers knocked off, eats max layers, and can force out Gliscor once or twice but won't succeed long-term, you need to run Manaphy on offense and break quickly or the win is doubtful.

Greninja is incredibly frail and vulnerable to hazards, this is like saying Zamazenta was a Chien-Pao check and thus we should've kept that mon in the tier. Just paper-thin excuses to keep Gliscor yo.

Walking Wake not only takes toxic+hazards damage, it is crucially getting its Choice Lock easily scouted by Protect and often failing to make progress vs well built Gliscor balance teams as a result. This is actually a very poor answer in practice, and contributes to why Gliscor has an amazing matchup vs Sun teams.

Boots Weavile requires a U-turn Corviknight as a companion to actually get in safely vs Gliscor, and even then, Gliscor can comfortably blow its tera to Toxic Weavile (weav will not tera back to salvage this) and it will slowly lose and probably fail to make any progress vs Clefable, which the opposing team was probably counting on to make progress and remove boots. You can't even force out defensive Ghold because knock doesn't kill and Make it Rain ohkos you back. Weav is already shit and its usage is barely justified by broken Gliscor.

Ninetales-Alola is frail, hazards vulnerable, getting Toxic'd, and its veil turns are getting stalled by Protect. This is another Greninja tier answer.

A physdef Glowking is performing much worse at checking things its supposed to like WW, Iron Moth, special Ival, Enamorus, etc, and for what? Eating a Knock Off and getting reamed by max layers? Not even avoiding a 2hko from eq? This is another fake answer bro even slowking would be better.

Balloons get easily popped throughout the course of the game, and many Gliscor sets have adapted to run both knock and eq, or u-turn, or many other variations, and nowadays they are hardly adequate counterplay to Gliscor.

Even if Gliscor isn't running eq, Knock Off removing Kingambit's leftovers is quite bad for gambit and it is still taking max layers meaning it's not exactly coming in easily. If its boots, those boots are getting knock'd, same problem

Toxapex has trouble doing anything back to Gliscor, its coming in to get its boots removed and take max layers and lose long term. How is this an answer in any way?

Gholdengo can actually threaten Gliscor, but it is still eating a Knock Off and then eating max layers, not sustainable at all, and not a long term answer.

Sneasler can set up in front of an eq-less Gliscor, after eating max layers, but Gliscor was never the Unburden Sneasler check to begin with, as Grassy Terrain+Grassy Seed was gonna drastically reduce eq damage regardless. Go into your Skeledirge, click wisp, and go back to winning...

If the gliscor is not Toxic, tusk and dnite are still getting Knockd and eating hazards, although I honestly think no toxic Glisc is a horrible set, you're throwing away your advantage vs opposing Tusk at that point which is a shame.

The real final takeaway here is that Gliscor has almost no long-term answers, and I want to emphasize long-term, because that's how the best Gliscor teams operate: they make progress long-term. I am assuming things like max layers, items knocked, long term shit etc because that is how fighting a competent Gliscor team actually plays out. If your counterplay cannot succeed under these conditions, then it aint real, and in many such cases, it is not.

It is very important to not look at single turn interactions (Greninja ohkos Gliscor omg!!) and instead look at what stands up to this broken threat reliably, throughout the game, because Gliscor is gonna be sticking around. Hint: not much, hence why it should be banned.

 

[xgermx]

Replying to Stall edition go go go

I would advise you to take a step back and ask yourself: is Samurott-Hisui ACTUALLY giving you more trouble than Gliscor? If the answer is yes, try offense.

Isn't it even worse with offense? I find Samurott troublesome even with balance. If you play offense, how exactly are you going to stop turn 1 CE from sash samurott? And if your team is fast paced, do you really want to take the time to spin those spikes off? Cinderace kind of works i suppose, but not much else. Also, can whatever you lead into samurott survive CE and suckerpunch right after? While also being faster, otherwise you are just eating 2 CEs.

Replying to Stall edition go go go

its strong MU vs all hazard removal

Great Tusk can use it as setup fodder, though only once throughout the game probably. I get that it is niche (why though? it is a good tusk set imho), but you probably have to at least consider it when a great tusk switches in.

Replying to Stall edition go go go

In my view, I think that keeping Gliscor is not going to make your original complaints go away (hammy), it just gives hammy competition. In other words, it seems like you just want more broken mons to ensure that other broken mons don't get usage, which is...not how we do tiering. We ban all broken mons, not keep them.

I had this question multiple times throughout the whole suspect thread, i am just answering to this bit because it made me think of it. What is a broken mon?
I usually think of it as a pokemon that is way stronger than the rest of the tier, or that forces every team to run a dedicated check. If there are two broken mons in a tier, something similar. If i hear there are 5 broken mons, i imagine a rock paper scissors situation where if you prepare for one, you lose to the other, making the game too matchup dependant.
Right now multiple people in the thread are saying that there are many broken mons in the tier and that broken checks broken. If that's the case, isn't that just the new power level of the tier? What's the difference between broken and not broken then? I don't think we are in a "rock paper scissors" situation either.
I have seen arguments like "if you like Gliscor because it checks broken stuff, then we just ban all the broken stuff". Or "look, this is just the start for banning spikes users". Uh, no. People that wanted to keep Gliscor saying Gholdengo is the problem have been reminded that they should not consider future bans, just the meta now with Gliscor and later without Gliscor. That's absolutely fair. But then the same should be said to those that want to ban Gliscor: if the Gliscor ban in your opinion only helps if followed by other bans, nope. That's not the point.

Replying to Stall edition go go go

The real final takeaway here is that Gliscor has almost no long-term answers, and I want to emphasize long-term, because that's how the best Gliscor teams operate: they make progress long-term. I am assuming things like max layers, items knocked, long term shit etc because that is how fighting a competent Gliscor team actually plays out. If your counterplay cannot succeed under these conditions, then it aint real, and in many such cases, it is not.

How long term is your long term? Yeah, most stuff doesn't check Gliscor forever (i still think Hattarene gets close to it if you don't overcommit). But some of that stuff that gets chipped down, only gets chipped down through toxic and similar. That means they can come in 4, maybe 5 times? That's already quite a long game in my opinion. If you are playing against a really defensive team with Gliscor that aims to make progress long term (your own description), you are losing to stall man. Stall is SUPPOSED to outlast your checks and counters.
It would be way more troublesome if Gliscor could outlast its checks when put in an offensive team. A lot of people in this thread think it can, in my opinion you can make the team around Gliscor crumble before your check goes down.

 

[quacc]

Replying to Stall edition go go go

Yes, this is a good thing. No single ban "solves" the hazard issue, banning Gliscor helps.

None of these water/ice types beat Gliscor long term. They get toxic'd, knock'd worn down by hazards and eventually lose.

Again, Gliscor cannot slot the 3 of its preferred progress moves, spikes, AND protect. Nothing needs to beat EVERY set, just enough where you have counterplay to each.

I have been hating on this meta at every step of this meta, vocally, and Hammy+Ghold was better than now. You can complain all you want about the attack that sets spikes, but the fact remains that Hammy is slow, frail, reliant on boots which limits its power+speed, and constantly praying it does not proc Static. Hammy is actually like 18x easier to handle than Gliscor is.

More defensive teams than ever have been forced to spam HDB because even mons like Cinderace are completely ineffective in front of Gliscor. Wo-Chien adaptation btw? You are not going to hear me defending that meta, it was trash, but the current one is even worse.

Cinderace is a cope of a hazards removal anyways against defensive teams and should mainly be used as primary hazard removal against offensive teams. Even against Ting-Lu, you need Great Tusk or something else to constantly keep hazards off or else your dreams get crushed by just getting the spikes up again.

I would advise you to take a step back and ask yourself: is Samurott-Hisui ACTUALLY giving you more trouble than Gliscor? If the answer is yes, try offense.

Uh, what? Defensive teams find Gliscor more annoying than Samurott-Hisui by FAR; offensive teams are the ones that hate Samurott-Hisui more because Samurott-Hisui is by far the LEAST passive spikes setter. Defensive teams are more prone to being farmed by Gliscor, but even defensive teams have counterplay.

If you can run Gliscor+Clefable for Hammy, then why are you complaining about Hammy? Because Gliscor wasn't a hammy check, so again, what difference would it make if Gliscor gets banned or not? It makes no sense to me that you are afraid of Hammy spikestacks but you want to keep Gliscor, as if that saves you? Ultimately, is Hammy not already a knocker that beats both Clef and Gliscor? Hammy just clicks Tera Water Aqua Cutter and cuts down both, can you afford to go Tera water resist on Clefable and then expose yourself to Tera Dark CE's?

Because Gliscor can outlast Samurott-H. Yes, you can't necessarily reliably take Samurott-H on well, but if you can get a toxic off or chip it down for the agonizing first few turns, you can stabilize.

Relevant Calc

252 Atk Sharpness Tera Water Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 268-316 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

From the provided calc, you survive one hit and can get a toxic. Then, you can play around it by outlasting and then stabilize.

Let's talk about all these supposed checks

fake news

Corviknight in practice is getting Knocked Off, eating a Sticky Barb from clefable (gliscor's most common partner) and losing long term to Gliscor, Pressure is irrelevant when you are being forced to use up your Roosts as your health is evaporating and Gliscor is healing lol.

Torn-T is getting Knocked, Toxic'd, eating Stealth Rock, and has basically no longevity unless it wants to spam nothing but U-turn. NP+Taunt sets cannot fit knock off and cannot break past common special walls like Milotic or Stoss Blissey after eating Toxic+Knock, and 4 attacks sets with Knock will be stonewalled by Clefable sets or fail to even pressure Gliscor through protects as toxic damage racks up. In practice, another fake answer.

Dondozo hates being knocked, takes full layers of hazards damage, forced to rest easily and is incredibly passive and useless vs every Gliscor team at this point.

Hatterene eats a Knock Off, loses leftovers, fails to recover back that damage with Draining Kiss when something like Skeledirge comes in and starts making progress vs your team. Hell, Clefable can also come in and pass you a Sticky Barb after you Draining Kiss and boom, your hatterene is fucking toast, Gliscor will easily win long term and get up Spikes eventually. Fake answer in practice.

MG Clefable can switch in but is it really preventing Spikes from going up? Nope, that shit is getting up all day, I sure hope your whole team is hazard proof otherwise you're toast. Also hope your clefable is wish+protect (leaving you with 1 moveslot to do anything) otherwise Earthquake will break through you eventually.

Amoongus gets its HDB knocked off, eats max layers, Regen starts to fail you, doesn't prevent Spikes from going up, honestly very confused as to why this is being considered a Gliscor response in any way. Even if you pack some wack tech like Worry Seed, you are still incredibly passive and easy to switch into by Gliscor's teammates like Gholdengo, Mandibuzz, etc.

Manaphy gets its crucial leftovers knocked off, eats max layers, and can force out Gliscor once or twice but won't succeed long-term, you need to run Manaphy on offense and break quickly or the win is doubtful.

Greninja is incredibly frail and vulnerable to hazards, this is like saying Zamazenta was a Chien-Pao check and thus we should've kept that mon in the tier. Just paper-thin excuses to keep Gliscor yo.

Walking Wake not only takes toxic+hazards damage, it is crucially getting its Choice Lock easily scouted by Protect and often failing to make progress vs well built Gliscor balance teams as a result. This is actually a very poor answer in practice, and contributes to why Gliscor has an amazing matchup vs Sun teams.

Boots Weavile requires a U-turn Corviknight as a companion to actually get in safely vs Gliscor, and even then, Gliscor can comfortably blow its tera to Toxic Weavile (weav will not tera back to salvage this) and it will slowly lose and probably fail to make any progress vs Clefable, which the opposing team was probably counting on to make progress and remove boots. You can't even force out defensive Ghold because knock doesn't kill and Make it Rain ohkos you back. Weav is already shit and its usage is barely justified by broken Gliscor.

Ninetales-Alola is frail, hazards vulnerable, getting Toxic'd, and its veil turns are getting stalled by Protect. This is another Greninja tier answer.

A physdef Glowking is performing much worse at checking things its supposed to like WW, Iron Moth, special Ival, Enamorus, etc, and for what? Eating a Knock Off and getting reamed by max layers? Not even avoiding a 2hko from eq? This is another fake answer bro even slowking would be better.

Balloons get easily popped throughout the course of the game, and many Gliscor sets have adapted to run both knock and eq, or u-turn, or many other variations, and nowadays they are hardly adequate counterplay to Gliscor.

Even if Gliscor isn't running eq, Knock Off removing Kingambit's leftovers is quite bad for gambit and it is still taking max layers meaning it's not exactly coming in easily. If its boots, those boots are getting knock'd, same problem

Toxapex has trouble doing anything back to Gliscor, its coming in to get its boots removed and take max layers and lose long term. How is this an answer in any way?

Gholdengo can actually threaten Gliscor, but it is still eating a Knock Off and then eating max layers, not sustainable at all, and not a long term answer.

Sneasler can set up in front of an eq-less Gliscor, after eating max layers, but Gliscor was never the Unburden Sneasler check to begin with, as Grassy Terrain+Grassy Seed was gonna drastically reduce eq damage regardless. Go into your Skeledirge, click wisp, and go back to winning...

If the gliscor is not Toxic, tusk and dnite are still getting Knockd and eating hazards, although I honestly think no toxic Glisc is a horrible set, you're throwing away your advantage vs opposing Tusk at that point which is a shame.

A lot of these statements follow the assumption that your checks need to have the same longevity as Gliscor. Let's face it, trying to have everything last as long as Gliscor is not a good long-term plan. Some of these arguments just say "oh, while it can't get toxic'd, it can get knocked into earthquaked" which misses the entire point of Zannty's pretty reasonable post; Gliscor can't fit it all. However, even if you want to go down this path, there are still options.

Tornadus-Therian only loses if it is BOTH knock off AND toxic, which does not break through other forms.

Honestly, because a lot of these rebuttals focus on the fact that Gliscor has better longevity than its checks, they fail to consider the overall long-term consequences of letting these mons in for free. For example, Hatterene can get a free nuzzle or set up on something.

The Greninja argument is beyond me at this point. No shit, having ONE mon beat Chien-Pao is unhealthy, but having MULTIPLE offensive water types beat Gliscor is definitely fine. There is nothing wrong with this argument.

Slowking-Galar has always ran physically defensive sets, Gliscor isn't "magically" forcing it to do so.

Corviknight only gets "tricky barbed" if you brave bird into a Gliscor. How often are you doing this? Not much. Pressure is enough to make you not rely on brave bird too much.

And, well, you said it yourself that knock off earthquake Gliscor is an inferior set straight up, so is it safe to assume that the only sets we should focus on are random swords dance sets, knock off toxic, and toxic earthquake?

Oh man, that literally means you don't have to blanket checks and counters to all the sets even MORE!

Stuff like air balloon Heatran and Gholdengo now beat EVERY Gliscor set because guess what, you can't knock off into earthquake these mons. Get boned.

Hatterene, which you argued wasn't a perfect answer because of leftovers getting knocked, now becomes one because you get 2 turns of leftovers AND draining kiss for a little bit of extra recovery. Knock off can get draining kissed to heal off most of that damage as well. The main threat to Hatterene is knock off earthquake, which you literally said yourself is a bad set.

Just because you don't see a hardcoded counter to Gliscor that has its own infinite longevity doesn't mean that Gliscor is inherently broken because it lives forever and its counters don't. Seems quite similar to past gen Clefable now, doesn't it?

 

[Srn]

Isn't it even worse with offense? I find Samurott troublesome even with balance. If you play offense, how exactly are you going to stop turn 1 CE from sash samurott? And if your team is fast paced, do you really want to take the time to spin those spikes off? Cinderace kind of works i suppose, but not much else. Also, can whatever you lead into samurott survive CE and suckerpunch right after? While also being faster, otherwise you are just eating 2 CEs.

Zapdos volt switch-->helmet mon easily denies turn 1 CE from focus sash hammy, and this counterplay was prevalent enough in home meta that sash hammy became its worst set.

Great Tusk can use it as setup fodder, though only once throughout the game probably. I get that it is niche (why though? it is a good tusk set imho), but you probably have to at least consider it when a great tusk switches in.

Even if you decide to blow your most valuable resource on a bulk up tera poison tusk, you are getting your leftovers knocked off and there's no gaurantee you can get past gliscor's teammates. In the case of xavgb balance, you're not getting past IDef foul play mandibuzz or wisp unaware dirge, even if you do get a knock off in, you have essentially wasted your tera.

I had this question multiple times throughout the whole suspect thread, i am just answering to this bit because it made me think of it. What is a broken mon?
I usually think of it as a pokemon that is way stronger than the rest of the tier, or that forces every team to run a dedicated check. If there are two broken mons in a tier, something similar. If i hear there are 5 broken mons, i imagine a rock paper scissors situation where if you prepare for one, you lose to the other, making the game too matchup dependant.
Right now multiple people in the thread are saying that there are many broken mons in the tier and that broken checks broken. If that's the case, isn't that just the new power level of the tier? What's the difference between broken and not broken then? I don't think we are in a "rock paper scissors" situation either.
I have seen arguments like "if you like Gliscor because it checks broken stuff, then we just ban all the broken stuff". Or "look, this is just the start for banning spikes users". Uh, no. People that wanted to keep Gliscor saying Gholdengo is the problem have been reminded that they should not consider future bans, just the meta now with Gliscor and later without Gliscor. That's absolutely fair. But then the same should be said to those that want to ban Gliscor: if the Gliscor ban in your opinion only helps if followed by other bans, nope. That's not the point.

Defensively broken mons make lots of teamstyles unviable by virtue of having a strong MU vs a lot of them. In this case, I see Gliscor as fitting this bill due to how good hazards are and its strong MU vs existing hazard removal.
If we are to accept broken checks broken as the new power level of the tier, we should be keeping mons like flutter mane, regieleki, iron bundle, chien pao, chi-yu, ursaluna-bloodmoon, and so on. All of these mons have answers and counterplay, you cannot reasonably fit them into a team, and it is a rock paper scissors situation. So where would you draw the line? Are all of the mons I listed acceptable as the new power level of the tier?

How long term is your long term? Yeah, most stuff doesn't check Gliscor forever (i still think Hattarene gets close to it if you don't overcommit). But some of that stuff that gets chipped down, only gets chipped down through toxic and similar. That means they can come in 4, maybe 5 times? That's already quite a long game in my opinion. If you are playing against a really defensive team with Gliscor that aims to make progress long term (your own description), you are losing to stall man. Stall is SUPPOSED to outlast your checks and counters.
It would be way more troublesome if Gliscor could outlast its checks when put in an offensive team. A lot of people in this thread think it can, in my opinion you can make the team around Gliscor crumble before your check goes down.

My long term is fat balance/stall long term, where gliscor thrives. Coming in only 4-5 times is quite bad. You need to lean into counterteaming gliscor extremely hard to make it crumble first, and you are often making your team unacceptably weaker to everything else in the process.

Again, Gliscor cannot slot the 3 of its preferred progress moves, spikes, AND protect. Nothing needs to beat EVERY set, just enough where you have counterplay to each.

We can actually just assume knock toxic spikes protect with barb clef in the back with max layers up, and basically every single check provided loses long term besides mg clef.

Cinderace is a cope of a hazards removal anyways against defensive teams and should mainly be used as primary hazard removal against offensive teams. Even against Ting-Lu, you need Great Tusk or something else to constantly keep hazards off or else your dreams get crushed by just getting the spikes up again.

The problem is that cinderace+Great Tusk used to be enough vs hstack, and gliscor singlehandedly makes this no longer the case.

Uh, what? Defensive teams find Gliscor more annoying than Samurott-Hisui by FAR; offensive teams are the ones that hate Samurott-Hisui more because Samurott-Hisui is by far the LEAST passive spikes setter. Defensive teams are more prone to being farmed by Gliscor, but even defensive teams have counterplay.

I fully disagree, hammy is slow and frail and offense has no trouble putting it down. It is defensive teams, which cannot take advantage of its slowness and frailness as much, which are then forced to tank knock offs, CEs, aqua cutters and usually crumble long term. Gliscor is good vs almost everything lol thats why it needs to go.

Because Gliscor can outlast Samurott-H. Yes, you can't necessarily reliably take Samurott-H on well, but if you can get a toxic off or chip it down for the agonizing first few turns, you can stabilize.

Relevant Calc

252 Atk Sharpness Tera Water Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 268-316 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

From the provided calc, you survive one hit and can get a toxic. Then, you can play around it by outlasting and then stabilize.

Gliscor might be able to outlast hammy, but it's not because it can tank a single hit. Again, hammy was never a threat to defensive teams because it can ohko everything, it is a threat because it wins long term, by getting up spikes, removing boots, and breaking everything that could tank knock off. Gliscor is no exception to this.

A lot of these statements follow the assumption that your checks need to have the same longevity as Gliscor. Let's face it, trying to have everything last as long as Gliscor is not a good long-term plan. Some of these arguments just say "oh, while it can't get toxic'd, it can get knocked into earthquaked" which misses the entire point of Zannty's pretty reasonable post; Gliscor can't fit it all. However, even if you want to go down this path, there are still options.

Actually yes, your gliscor checks need to have the same longevity as gliscor or it isn't a real check. Your gameplan can be winning quickly, in which case you might not need super proper gliscor checks beyond smth like manaphy, but anything slower needs a gliscor check with the same longevity as gliscor, yes.

Tornadus-Therian only loses if it is BOTH knock off AND toxic, which does not break through other forms.

Honestly, because a lot of these rebuttals focus on the fact that Gliscor has better longevity than its checks, they fail to consider the overall long-term consequences of letting these mons in for free. For example, Hatterene can get a free nuzzle or set up on something.

The Greninja argument is beyond me at this point. No shit, having ONE mon beat Chien-Pao is unhealthy, but having MULTIPLE offensive water types beat Gliscor is definitely fine. There is nothing wrong with this argument.

Slowking-Galar has always ran physically defensive sets, Gliscor isn't "magically" forcing it to do so.

Corviknight only gets "tricky barbed" if you brave bird into a Gliscor. How often are you doing this? Not much. Pressure is enough to make you not rely on brave bird too much.

And, well, you said it yourself that knock off earthquake Gliscor is an inferior set straight up, so is it safe to assume that the only sets we should focus on are random swords dance sets, knock off toxic, and toxic earthquake?

Oh man, that literally means you don't have to blanket checks and counters to all the sets even MORE!

Stuff like air balloon Heatran and Gholdengo now beat EVERY Gliscor set because guess what, you can't knock off into earthquake these mons. Get boned.

Just because you don't see a hardcoded counter to Gliscor that has its own infinite longevity doesn't mean that Gliscor is inherently broken because it lives forever and its counters don't. Seems quite similar to past gen Clefable now, doesn't it?

Yea lets assume knock/toxic/spikes/protect bc it's what I assume to be the best set
Torn-t gets knocked, eats rocks+toxic, loses
Hatterene gets knocked and eats a Sticky Barb by clicking Nuzzle or draining kiss aka loses
Glowking gets knocked+max layers= loses
Corv gets sticky barb'd by clefable by U-turning, Body Pressing, Iron Heading, or Brave Birding vs Gliscor as Clefable switches in, not just brave birding, I mean any of its usual attacks will fuck it over. Do you expect Corv to do nothing but defog/ID/roost vs Gliscor?? This shit is losing
Heatran and Ghold get knocked and eat max layers, they lose long term.

Clefable had good longevity but it was not as effective as forcing progress as Gliscor was imo and can't be compared in that regard.

 

[xgermx]

Zapdos volt switch-->helmet mon easily denites turn 1 CE from focus sash hammy, and this counterplay was prevalent enough in home meta that sash hammy became its worst set.

This is interesting, i didn't know this interaction with rocky helmet, i thought the spikes went down even if rocky helmet KOed. I suppose now this could also be replicated with Ogerpon or Cinderace.
Rocky Helmet is a tipically defensive item though. This seems to support what both me and quacc are saying: defensive teams are better equipped for Samurott-H, i don't see rocky helmet fitting in HO or similar.

Even if you decide to blow your most valuable resource on a bulk up tera poison tusk, you are getting your leftovers knocked off and there's no gaurantee you can get past gliscor's teammates. In the case of xavgb balance, you're not getting past IDef foul play mandibuzz or wisp unaware dirge, even if you do get a knock off in, you have essentially wasted your tera.

I personally think getting leftovers knocked by gliscor is GREAT. That's essentially a second turn of free setup after the wasted toxic. And then a third turn when gliscor switched out. That's either one bulk up and two spins, or two bulkups and one spin, depending on the team. That does some serious damage. Yeah, it can't beat every single team, but at the same time not all gliscor teams are prepared for it and mons get worn down over the course of a match.
And btw, Mundibuzz can't really switch in, even less if you already got knocked by Gliscor.
+2 80+ Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 238-282 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you got knocked, that means you had 2 turns to bulk up, you can just start ice spinning and any mandibuzz that come is still going to die before using iron defense. You can even use rapid spin on the switch, ice spinner and then ice spinner again after the iron defense, it should still go down. A bit harder if you only have one bulk up, but with some previous chip it works.

If we are to accept broken checks broken as the new power level of the tier, we should be keeping mons like flutter mane, regieleki, iron bundle, chien pao, chi-yu, ursaluna-bloodmoon, and so on. All of these mons have answers and counterplay, you cannot reasonably fit them into a team, and it is a rock paper scissors situation. So where would you draw the line? Are all of the mons I listed acceptable as the new power level of the tier?

I think i draw the line at the rock paper scissors situation. If those mons were impossible to check in a single team, they had to go (i wasn't playing OU in that period). I feel Gliscor doesn't have this rock paper scissors problem, so that's why i don't want to ban it.

My long term is fat balance/stall long term, where gliscor thrives. Coming in only 4-5 times is quite bad. You need to lean into counterteaming gliscor extremely hard to make it crumble first, and you are often making your team unacceptably weaker to everything else in the process.

Actually yes, your gliscor checks need to have the same longevity as gliscor or it isn't a real check. Your gameplan can be winning quickly, in which case you might not need super proper gliscor checks beyond smth like manaphy, but anything slower needs a gliscor check with the same longevity as gliscor, yes.

I put together two of your quotes, yeah i disagree on what a check needs to do, not much to discuss here. Your long term is way more long term than what i usually consider for general matchups. I can't even say much because i didn't find any stall on ladder, i thought they were unpopular right now. I found one really fat team, i remember i being annoying but still going down by exploiting passive pokemon.

We can actually just assume knock toxic spikes protect with barb clef in the back with max layers up, and basically every single check provided loses long term besides mg clef.

Yea lets assume knock/toxic/spikes/protect bc it's what I assume to be the best set

Again, two different quotes from your post. I actually consider that a pretty weak set. Without EQ, toxic immune pokemon can just come in as much as they want. Worst case scenario, use a steel or poison type as a spinner/defogger or even a tera. Yes, that's resources, but if you have specific problems with that matchup, why not?
Also that sets loses to heatran and so much stuff. Sure, Gliscor can switch out, but giving free switch ins to multiple pokemons means your team struggles to defensively cover everything. Imagine having to deal with +2 kingambit every time you throw out Gliscor, beacause you can't EQ it.

 

[quacc]

Zapdos volt switch-->helmet mon easily denites turn 1 CE from focus sash hammy, and this counterplay was prevalent enough in home meta that sash hammy became its worst set.



Even if you decide to blow your most valuable resource on a bulk up tera poison tusk, you are getting your leftovers knocked off and there's no gaurantee you can get past gliscor's teammates. In the case of xavgb balance, you're not getting past IDef foul play mandibuzz or wisp unaware dirge, even if you do get a knock off in, you have essentially wasted your tera.


Defensively broken mons make lots of teamstyles unviable by virtue of having a strong MU vs a lot of them. In this case, I see Gliscor as fitting this bill due to how good hazards are and its strong MU vs existing hazard removal.
If we are to accept broken checks broken as the new power level of the tier, we should be keeping mons like flutter mane, regieleki, iron bundle, chien pao, chi-yu, ursaluna-bloodmoon, and so on. All of these mons have answers and counterplay, you cannot reasonably fit them into a team, and it is a rock paper scissors situation. So where would you draw the line? Are all of the mons I listed acceptable as the new power level of the tier?

My long term is fat balance/stall long term, where gliscor thrives. Coming in only 4-5 times is quite bad. You need to lean into counterteaming gliscor extremely hard to make it crumble first, and you are often making your team unacceptably weaker to everything else in the process.

We can actually just assume knock toxic spikes protect with barb clef in the back with max layers up, and basically every single check provided loses long term besides mg clef.


The problem is that cinderace+Great Tusk used to be enough vs hstack, and gliscor singlehandedly makes this no longer the case.


I fully disagree, hammy is slow and frail and offense has no trouble putting it down. It is defensive teams, which cannot take advantage of its slowness and frailness as much, which are then forced to tank knock offs, CEs, aqua cutters and usually crumble long term. Gliscor is good vs almost everything lol thats why it needs to go.


Gliscor might be able to outlast hammy, but it's not because it can tank a single hit. Again, hammy was never a threat to defensive teams because it can ohko everything, it is a threat because it wins long term, by getting up spikes, removing boots, and breaking everything that could tank knock off. Gliscor is no exception to this.


Actually yes, your gliscor checks need to have the same longevity as gliscor or it isn't a real check. Your gameplan can be winning quickly, in which case you might not need super proper gliscor checks beyond smth like manaphy, but anything slower needs a gliscor check with the same longevity as gliscor, yes.


Yea lets assume knock/toxic/spikes/protect bc it's what I assume to be the best set
Torn-t gets knocked, eats rocks+toxic, loses
Hatterene gets knocked and eats a Sticky Barb by clicking Nuzzle or draining kiss aka loses
Glowking gets knocked+max layers= loses
Corv gets sticky barb'd by clefable by U-turning, Body Pressing, Iron Heading, or Brave Birding vs Gliscor as Clefable switches in, not just brave birding, I mean any of its usual attacks will fuck it over. Do you expect Corv to do nothing but defog/ID/roost vs Gliscor?? This shit is losing
Heatran and Ghold get knocked and eat max layers, they lose long term.

Clefable had good longevity but it was not as effective as forcing progress as Gliscor was imo and can't be compared in that regard.

Alright, let's assume knock toxic spikes protect, I am also a big fan of this set, so let's see here:

Unless you have tricky barb as a way to beat Hatterene, Hatterene doesnt give a damn about Gliscor.

You are hard walled by steel types and can be pressured by them.

Yes, Corviknight does beat Gliscor. If you do the math, Gliscor has 16 protects, 16 spikes, 16 knocks, and 8 toxics, which is 56 pp.
Corviknight has defog, roost (only need it after REPEATED knock offs), and iron defense. We are not clicking brave bird because let's say you have that Clefable in the back. Iron defense works just fine; without roosting (which you for sure can), you hit 48 pp, and with roosting, you hit 56. All of this factors in the fact that you have no balls and NEVER brave bird, and these odds look good for you because Gliscor cannot choose to "waste a turn"; it needs to switch out, which you can as well, no big deal. You just neutralized ALL of Gliscor's pp without even RISKING a sticky barb.

Actually yes, your gliscor checks need to have the same longevity as gliscor or it isn't a real check. Your gameplan can be winning quickly, in which case you might not need super proper gliscor checks beyond smth like manaphy, but anything slower needs a gliscor check with the same longevity as gliscor, yes.

If you aren't using Gliscor, chances are your team just isn't that slow. Most teams without Gliscor have a faster gameplan than those that do, and thus, your checks don't need to have the same longevity.

Also, you CAN use Great Tusk + Cinderace; faster paced teams are fine with letting Great Tusk get toxic'd and usually don't have enough turns to heal the ice spinner and can then be exploited due to spamming protect every god damn second because I have decided rocks are going up and snatching away the switchin turn of poison heal. Free setup.

Alright, yeah, some of those options don't work because of the specific set, but you know what does? Air balloon mons like Heatran that threaten it out. As soon as it switches out, you can go into your hazard removal and spin it out. They go into their Gliscor again? Go back into Air balloon Heatran. Yes, the balloon is popped now, but you aren't taking spikes either. Same thing goes for Gholdengo. You do eventually get worn down with Heatran specifically due to knock off chip and no recover, but you, again, buy yourself enough time to pose problems against the opposing team. After all, it's not like Gliscor leads and just beats teams by itself; the team itself has to take all those magma storms + taunts and earth powers and boosted/unboosted make it rains and shadow balls.

Offensive pressure still exists as well.

If, for whatever reason, you just don't have a way to deal with Gliscor, you can also try to wear down its teammates with your faster-paced teams.

Also, the Samurott-H thing is a bit weird to me.

Samurott-H finds trouble knocking off the boots of too many things against Gliscor because after you toxic (also, can I just mention that you need to be blessed with rolls AND not let Gliscor heal up too much because otherwise, you need to TERA your god damn HAZARD SETTER to actually make your hazards do anything), you can let something get knocked OR go into something useless (or your Clefable, does alright), let it get knocked, and then just wait it out. Crisis averted.

And yes, Samurott-H is more of a threat to offense teams than Gliscor. Not every team runs Zapdos + Great Tusk, and those that don't have some form of equivalent have to concede a couple ceaseless edges to deal with it. These aren't weak attacks either; they are sharpness boosted.

As for Gliscor, offensive teams match up well against it. If Gliscor struggles to get enough turns, it finds itself struggling to stay afloat against faster paced teams, and especially ones with lots of setup mons that exploit protect and grass spam. It even finds less chances to protect, or else it risk the entire game or sacking a teammate.

As for Hatterene, not every team has a sticky barb Clefable, but those that do? Hatterene also finds itself on more offensive teams. I can afford to take the barb at times because now, guess what; you have to bring in Gliscor and then switch out EVERY TIME because you risk Hatterene switching in to get a spike on your side, give you your OWN barb, or toxic for nothing and let Hatterene draining kiss. Gliscor cannot as freely force progress this way. By the time Hatterene goes down, you might have bought yourself enough time to steamroll your opponent depending on how you played it out.

Great Tusk with wish protect even works to a certain degree if you can build your team around it. I'm not a fan of Pinkacross's team, and especially not the Alomomola set, but it can work.

 

[FireFawkes47]

In as good faith a perspective as possible:

To summarize the DNB side of the argument, Gliscor can be easily dispatched with the ice or water coverage. It's special bulk is only held up by the fact that with protect and gets two extra turns of healing thanks to protect getting 25% percent back. It can't touch sub users that can tank uninvested hits like. Pokemon like Ogerpon (both forms but esp Wellspring), Manaphy that run fast sub sets and can tank a hit and make Gliscor is a sitting duck that you lose momentum against.

To summarize the Ban side of the argument, Gliscor is oppressive because it can switch in a lot and gets more or less permanent progress in toxic, spikes, knock off on its would-be switchins. Killed set diversity because it is such an overwhelming presence in the metagame that requires ice tera and coverage options. For example, Gliscor singlehandedly forcing over 80% of Great Tusks to run Ice Spinner, which is a moveslot Tusk would invest in something else like knock off is a sign the meta is not healthy.

Protect is an excellent scouting move that allows you to find out any coverage your opponents might have planned for it and respond accordingly. Scouting with protect alone is not broken but poison heal allows it to remain healthy and switch in with ease as it's immune to Spikes. Furthermore, it's a team effort and over-adapting to one presence in the metagame makes you more vulnerable to others; this means the mon is centralizing and thus imho should be banned.

 

[Magcargo]

Yes, Corviknight does beat Gliscor. If you do the math, Gliscor has 16 protects, 16 spikes, 16 knocks, and 8 toxics, which is 56 pp.
Corviknight has defog, roost (only need it after REPEATED knock offs), and iron defense. We are not clicking brave bird because let's say you have that Clefable in the back. Iron defense works just fine; without roosting (which you for sure can), you hit 48 pp, and with roosting, you hit 56. All of this factors in the fact that you have no balls and NEVER brave bird, and these odds look good for you because Gliscor cannot choose to "waste a turn"; it needs to switch out, which you can as well, no big deal. You just neutralized ALL of Gliscor's pp without even RISKING a sticky barb.

If Gliscor and Clef just infinitely switch, Corv is toast. Corv isn't just taking Knock Off damage too, its also taking damage from Stealth Rock every time it switches in, putting it on the back foot, especially since it will prematurely need to Defog in certain positions, which means that it will inevitably lose the hazard war against Clefascor. The key difference is that it is getting worn down by Stealth Rock and residual from Knock / Moonblast. If Corv's only non attacking moves are either Roost and Defog or Roost and Iron Defense, it is completely fucked, as it only has 24 PP it can burn through, one of which being its Previous Defog to win the hazard war. You need to run some crap like ID / Body Press / Defog / Roost, which works IG, but losing that slow U-Turn is not the best.

 

[Roller K]

Since voting is soon to start, I wanted to voice my experience in this metagame real quick, both for others to read as well as to list the reasons for my vote.

Pre-Reqs: Unsure

Most votes I usually lean one way or another, but Gliscor was so tough to judge. It is a fantastic Pokemon that condenses roles super well and opens up teambuilding, but it also has such a strong presence that it can limit teambuilding as well. It serves a strong purpose in every matchup, yet it never singlehandedly beats teams unless the team is poorly made. I wanted to get voting requirements to have a better opinion on Gliscor.

Reqs: Do Not Ban

I used this team to climb, making some slight adjustments. Please read the RMT for the original team, as my version of the team got voting reqs 7 times and the same six mons have gotten reqs 10 times total. Super strong team, kd458 cooked. Anyways, Gliscor was never an issue for the entirety of climbing. There's no denying that the team handles Gliscor super well; Air Balloon Heatran, Choice Band Rillaboom to obliterate Gliscor with Wood Hammer, Grassy Terrain to heal off Toxic damage and weaken the power of Earthquake, and Hatterene to deter setting up Spikes. Even then, Gliscor was not a wasted teammate; it could scout for moves with Protect and eat some hits in a pinch. Regardless, it did not feel like a banworthy Pokemon and seemed like a strong support for a team.

Post-Reqs: Ban

While I felt pretty confident in voting for Gliscor to stay, I really had not been building teams much and just spammed that strong team, so I decided to try out Gliscor for myself. At first, it felt solid but nothing crazy. As I got used to building with it as well as building around it, I quickly came to realize that it is more harmful than beneficial for teambuilding. I feel like I have to use Gliscor or else my team is inferior. I need two strong checks minimum for Gliscor on every viable team. I don't even think Gholdengo's presence is what makes Gliscor overwhelming; Gliscor alone can keep Spikes up the entire game and scout for sets with ease. Here is the team I've been using lately with some success. Despite no Gholdengo on the team, Gliscor is able to get up 3 layers of Spikes with ease and keep them on the field. This Gliscor set has grown to become my favorite, as it is so consistent at what it does and lives hits with ease, both physical and special.

Reasons why I want to Ban:

• Only Spiker with longevity: Gliscor is the only user of Spikes that is immune to Spikes itself and naturally heals. Most Spikes teams rely on Gholdengo being alive to keep hazards up, but Ghold has to be careful against the primary removers of the tier (Great Tusk and Cinderace). Once Ghold is gone on these HStack teams, assuming your form of removal is still around, it is easy to take advantage and keep hazards off. With Gliscor, that task is extremely difficult, as it just heals up with ease. You can't outstack a Gliscor since it only takes 12.5% from Stealth Rock and heals that off with Poison Heal. Any spinner gets punished with Toxic and cannot stay around long-term. Spikes are just extremely difficult to get rid of when Gliscor is the setter, and because of this, teams are forced to spam Heavy-Duty Boots or use Hyper Offense to quickly dismantle these teams.
• Very limited switch-ins: There are few Pokemon that can come into Gliscor safely, thanks to the combination of Toxic and Earthquake. Your best bet is a Steel-type with Air Balloon, Corviknight, Magic Guard Clefable at high health, and Gliscor. Even with those in mind, it's as simple as doubling from Gliscor into something that threatens Corviknight/Clefable/Gliscor as you anticipate it switching in, thus applying great pressure. Having 2+ Gliscor checks on every team feels mandatory, and considering how few mons actually come into Gliscor safely, it forces too much centralization when teambuilding.
• Unreasonably difficult to break: No matter how low Gliscor is, it can always make its way back to full health with Poison Heal and Protect. Its bulk is really nice, and with max SpDef, it somehow lives random Water/Ice coverage from full with relative ease and can fire off a Toxic to cripple the mon before slowly healing back to full. Choiced users have to be very careful, as you cannot overpredict due to Gliscor using Protect on your first turn out. If you predict wrong, Gliscor gets up a free Spike and heals 25 - 37.5%. Plus, you just switched and probably took 12.5% from a Spike already on the field. You may try to heal off the damage you took, but Gliscor can Toxic you to limit your longevity and heal itself during the process. Then it can Protect again to see what you click. Another chunk of health. All of a sudden, Gliscor has not clicked an offensive move, yet it healed back up to 80% from 30%, got up a Spike, poisoned you, damaged you for a decent chunk, and got insight on your set.

So yeah, while I do appreciate its role compression, it just does too much for a team and forces extreme prep to have a fighting chance against Gliscor. It might be more balanced if Gholdengo is removed or when the next DLC comes out, but in the current meta, it goes beyond being an OU defensive staple into the territory of extremely centralizing lame mon for Ubers. Farewell, scorpion

 

[quacc]

If Gliscor and Clef just infinitely switch, Corv is toast. Corv isn't just taking Knock Off damage too, its also taking damage from Stealth Rock every time it switches in, putting it on the back foot, especially since it will prematurely need to Defog in certain positions, which means that it will inevitably lose the hazard war against Clefascor. The key difference is that it is getting worn down by Stealth Rock and residual from Knock / Moonblast. If Corv's only non attacking moves are either Roost and Defog or Roost and Iron Defense, it is completely fucked, as it only has 24 PP it can burn through, one of which being its Previous Defog to win the hazard war. You need to run some crap like ID / Body Press / Defog / Roost, which works IG, but losing that slow U-Turn is not the best.

The reason why Corviknight works is because when they switch in Gliscor, you switch into Corviknight IMMEDIATELY after and pressure the pp. If they switch, you ALWAYS switch out. This means Corviknight always beats Gliscor because if they go Clefable, you go into something that threatens Clefable.