Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Toxic [ Tiering Note Post #2 ]

[Finchinator]

Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Gliscor!

Gliscor has been an OU staple since its release in generation 4, but it has quickly approached controversial status after its DLC release into SV OU. Gliscor gained access to utility moves like Spikes while finding itself in a landscape more conducive towards its success than ever before. Fundamental changes to the game such as no more Hidden Power accompanied by metagame specific trends such as a greater emphasis on entry hazards, which it sets while negating taking damage of its own thanks to Poison Heal recovery, have allowed for Gliscor to become one of the faces of SV OU!

While many suspects are on traditionally offensive Pokemon that lack sufficient counterplay, it is very possible that a defensively or a utility focused Pokemon could warrant tiering action as well. Something like Gliscor can be defeated by many individual opposing Pokemon that can fulfill the role of individual "checks" and "counters" to Gliscor in a traditional sense. However, it can be argued that the premium of support Gliscor provides far exceeds that of its contemporaries, leading to a strain being placed on team compositions throughout various archetypes and gameplay. Gauging the extent to which Gliscor's presence, which is not that of a traditionally offensive focused suspect, is a banworthy one will be a unique challenge for those who achieve voting requirements, but one we feel necessary towards the progression of our metagame. Given that Gliscor is a less generic suspect candidate, some may wonder how we even got to this point, so let's provide some timely context.

On the 30th of October, the SV OU tiering council released a tiering survey to its playerbase. The results of this survey (as well as the prior two and some tiering context -- be sure to check it out as I put as much transparency in as I could) can be found here. Gliscor received the most support by the qualified playerbase by greater than the margin for error, sitting at a 3.99 / 5 with the next closest being Gholdengo at a 3.72 / 5. We have quickbanned Pokemon who have received similar support to this at times, but also suspected others as it largely depended upon the specific Pokemon and metagame specific factors. In response to the data provided by our community, the SV OU tiering council had a vote between if we should quickban Gliscor, suspect Gliscor, or not act on Gliscor. Below are the results:

• Quickban Gliscor: ausma, NJNP, TPP -- 3
• Suspect Gliscor: Finchinator, ima, Lily, mind gaming, Ruft, Star -- 6
• No action on Gliscor: xavgb -- 1

Seeing as we did not achieve the supermajority necessary to quickban Gliscor, but we had a clear majority in favor of suspecting Gliscor, we have elected to move forward with its suspect at this time.

In terms of what Gliscor specifically does in the metagame, a lot of people's first and foremost thought is of it as a Spike setter. And this is a fair assessment to an extent as Gliscor is the best and most common setter of Spikes in the metagame. Few things can relibly remove hazards set by a Gliscor with Toxic or Knock Off across a drawn out sequence; Corviknight absolutely can and a few others may lay a less substantial claim to, but they are all stifled by Gholdengo's presence as a potential teammate to Gliscor -- more on this in the second post! The fact of the matter is that in a generation where recovery is limited in both distribution and PP, a Spikes Poison Heal Gliscor is naturally a phenomenal option. Parlaying its ability to Spikes with other prospect forcing strategies like Toxic spread or item displacement further improves Gliscor's match-up coverage, too.

This is not all Gliscor brings to the table, however, as its presence as a potentially broken Pokemon also roots from the fact that Gliscor is quite versatile. Spike sets started off as the vast majority and still are most common, but we have begun to see Gliscor's other utility shine frequently. One example is that Gliscor is able to effectively negate all opposing hazard damage as it is immune to Spikes and Sticky Webs while being able to heal off Stealth Rock after one turn and even end up with a net 12.5% health after a single Protect turn if Stealth Rocks were up. This allows for it to be a premier pivot with U-turn on a slower variant, setting up fragile offensive teammates for a seamless entry while maintaining its own health for traiditonal purposes as it can still fit one of Toxic, Knock Off, or Spikes on these variants. Speaking of Knock Off, Gliscor can opt to force progress of its own if it does not wish to do so through pivoting to a threat or layering the field with Spikes. Knock Off is an increasingly valuable tool that prevents opponents from negating entry hazard damage with Heavy-Duty Boots or Leftovers; Gliscor pairs well with other entry hazard setters, too, which makes this strategy quite effective. An even more direct way of making progress with Gliscor is Swords Dance, which lets it function as a sweeper that oftentimes outlasts bulkier foes, finds ample set-up opportunities, and still maintains unmatched survivability.

For all of the great things Gliscor does provide and all of the options it can use, there are still some glaring downsides to using it. For example, it is possible for some common OU Pokemon to abuse Gliscor or blank its normal progress. Hatterene can stop Spikes while setting up all over non-Swords Dance Gliscor, Magic Guard Clefable finds itself immune to both Spikes and Toxic, Air Balloon Gholdengo hard walls any Gliscor lacking Knock Off, U-turn, or the rare Ice Fang while keeping itself immune to Spikes so long as the Air Balloon is still equipped, and various Pokemon like Rest Dondozo, Worry Seed Amoonguss, Take Heart Manaphy, and Corviknight can all blank Gliscor with relative ease regardless of the variant. Gliscor also has a natural 4x weakness to Ice, a common offensive typing that it does like like to always Terastalize away from being weak to as this also means it could become weak to more entry hazards upon changing types. In addition, some variants of it only function on specific teams that may mandate Spike upkeep like Gholdengo or pressure on specific walls if you are running Swords Dance variants, making it not as versatile a piece as initially imagined.

Overall, Gliscor is one of the best Pokemon in SV OU. It provides a premium as a utility preesence with an array of options that span from Spike setter to status spreader all while being able to force more direct progress with other variants such as Knock Off or Swords Dance. Spikes are still the single most common variant and what truly makes Gliscor among the most controversial presences in the metagame, which can pair with Gholdengo to assure their field placement throughout most games. Gliscor also has Poison Heal, which gives it amazing survivability. However, it is contained by a larger handful Pokemon that can outright stop it from achieving even incrimental progress. It will be very interesting to see what our playerbase thinks of Gliscor as a suspect given that is not a traditionally offensive Pokemon!

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test!!! The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUVT. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUVT Finch.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The suspect being tested, Gliscor, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will be lasting until Friday, November 10th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
  • THIS IS A SLIGHTLY SHORTER TEST THAN NORMAL AS WE ATTEMPT TO BALANCE THE METAGAME AFTER THE RELEASE OF DLC. PLEASE NOTE THIS WHEN PLANNING TO GET VOTING REQUIREMENTS!!!

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. You are not allowed to post about other potential suspects or bans. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss Gholdengo, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Gliscor is banworthy or not;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Gliscor vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging Kris and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

 

[Finchinator]

RE: and the future of SV OU tiering,

Many players understandably wanted Gholdengo* to be suspected over Gliscor, stating that it is the root of our generation's Spikes (hazards) infestation. They tie this to Gholdengo stifling removal with its ability to block Defog coupled with its Ghost typing to block Rapid Spin. This is all true and -- speaking personally as opposed to as a representative for the council here -- and I wholeheartedly support a Gholdengo suspect, even giving it a 4 on the most recent tiering survey. My (again: personal to my individual opinion) hope is for Gholdengo to be suspected in the near future regardless of the verdict of this Gliscor suspect test.

What I think gets lost in translation a bit is that Gholdengo is more than just a blocker of removal and Gliscor is more than just a Spike setter. While we touched on the latter with Gliscor in the OP and I implore you to read through that, Gholdengo itself is one of the most devastating Pokemon for balances to face due to NP+Recover variants as well. Trick sets also can go a long way. It is a big threat with an ability that makes it one of the most practical things to add onto your team, too. It is easy to see why this could be suspect worthy and I am right there with many of you.

Gliscor was suspected first because there was notably more support throughout the survey and more support stated internally after survey results were released, but we specifically avoided quickbanning it despite being given the opportunity. This will let the people decide what to do with Gliscor's suspect and the metagame's condition. In the same light, there will be more chances for people to use their thoughts on Gholdengo to dictate tiering outcomes in future surveys and potentially future suspects as well. There is no guarantee it gets suspected and nothing is owed to anyone as the above is mostly my personal opinion, but I do think there's a lot more we have to do in this metagame.

*Any posts along these lines will be deleted and further discussion of Gholdengo belongs in the metagame discussion thread for the time being to remain in accordance with suspect guidelines. The point of this thread is to determine of Gliscor is banworthy in the current metagame -- nothing more or less.

 

[Finchinator]

This thread will remain locked for 24 hours in order for people to collect their thoughts. Enjoy the suspect!

 

[Finchinator]

Voter ID will be posted tonight prior to this thread opening for those inquiring. Thanks so much for your patience.

 

[Finchinator]

The thread is now unlocked. You may post as you see fit (about Gliscor).

Please remember the following:

further discussion of Gholdengo belongs in the metagame discussion thread for the time being to remain in accordance with suspect guidelines. The point of this thread is to determine of Gliscor is banworthy in the current metagame -- nothing more or less.

No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss Gholdengo, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Gliscor is banworthy or not

 

[Magcargo]

I was initially very pro-ban, but overtime, I have become unsure how to feel about Gliscor. The Toxic + EQ Combo is extremely powerful, and this Pokemon is a progress King with Spikes, but it can be a bit passive vs various Pokemon like other other Gliscor, Corviknight, Hatterene, as well as various Tera Pokemon like Sub Iron Moth. It has ways around these of course, but every potential mitigation to one of its issue comes with some opportunity cost. Running Knock Off to get rid of Boots or U-Turn for pivoting prevents this Pokemon from winning the long game with Toxic while Swords Dance sets often lack Spikes and sometimes Protect, so they may exert less general pressure. While this Pokemon's longevity is out of this world, the lack of instant, reliable recovery in Roost can be an annoyance vs more offensive oriented teams. Chip damage from Stealth Rock also adds up against this Pokemon, esp vs more offensive teams. I have begun to see some more counter-tech develop on the ladder too (like Block + Tera Flying Garg) which can give Gliscor some trouble. Most teams typically skew torwards running 4-6 Boots Pokemon as well, making Gliscor's Spikes sometimes feel like less of a valuable tool than it could be. It can Knock Off the opponent's Boots, but then it sacrifices Toxic.

This feels like a somewhat similar case to Garg, where multiple metagame adaptations have been forced to be made around Gliscor, which may leave its overall presence and effectiveness seeming more sparse than it actually is. I don't think Ghold's presence has much to do with Gliscor's effectiveness either, as I believe Ghold's presence is better felt on offensive structures where the few turns of protection it provides against Spinners and Defoggers feels more impactful. Gliscor feels similar to Ghold in the sense that it heavily punishes "do-nothing" teams due to its control over the long-game with its status immunity and greater healing from Poison Heal, but I believe that passive teams have a number of issues in the metagame outside these two that makes them undesirable to run anyways, namely offensive structures with Manaphy, which also heavily pressures most Passive teams.

I'm going to need to collect my thoughts when laddering for the suspect, before a decision becomes clear.

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

I doubt it needs said much, but holy shit is using Gliscor easy.

I went to go and try to get reqs for the first time in over 10 years on Showdown, something I've avoided because I'm bad at laddering, and loaded up the most barebones set possible. EQ, Spikes, Toxic, Protect, autogenerated with the EV spread Showdown gave me, and went Water tera.

Gliscor nearly solo won three games in a row. It's almost hilarious how easily it just stonewalls so many mons, forces switches, and winds up getting into PP wars with itself. Two games in my short stint (before getting humbled by people using base muk) resulted in Gliscor chicken games where I pivoted into Specs Valiant as they Rocked/Spiked. It's amusing... in a saddening way.

(Well, and a greater number of games were won because SpA booster tera water Iron Moth is evil in combination with spikes, but y'know.)




I won't get reqs, probably. College kicks my ass daily, and I'm just terrible at guessing right with opposing teras. However, I just don't like this Gliscor. This isn't the ol' reliable SDTect Gliscor of yesteryear, nor is it the pog Acroscor, but instead it's just a fat wall who clicks spikes 3 times then permawalls your non choice banded physical attackers. It has limitations (anything flying with sub, some mons just blow it up for free, Superman squads) but I'm just not a fan of it at all. I've seen too much that anything that removes aspects of the hazards metagame is good for me. Gliscor, Gholdengo, Spikes, it literally doesn't matter. Since Gliscor's up, that's what we're doing.

I will be happy to see it gone.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Know what? It's time for my full, complete and honest reaction to Gliscor being banned.

Gliscor is a really oppressive pokemon. It's really the last survivor of the HOME move losses since it's still one of the few pokemon with Knock Off and Toxic via TM, Level Up, or Egg Move (and like ig Goodra but no one uses that). Not only that, but Poison Heal remains it's only source of healing outside of Rest since because of the HOME move losses, it lost Roost. So why is it so good if it lost one of its best gen 7 tools?

As compensation, Game Freak blessed Gliscor with ALL 3 HAZARDS. It is by a longshot the number 1 defensive utility pokemon. The simple existence of Gliscor made Great Tusk use Ice Spinner just to effectively damage the thing. Of course this move hits other things, but it's really there only for Gliscor. With Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes at its disposal, a great defensive typing able to even withstand powerful Ice attacks, Knock Off and Toxic, its really a no brainer to use Gliscor.

Don't discredit it's offensive capabilities either. Swords Dance Gliscor is a very real set able to dismantle stall cores, or a Scale Shot variant that attempts to go all out for a sweep. The very existence of this set calls for very different counters compared to the regular supportive variant, and creates even more mind games with this thing.

Poison Heal also makes this pokemon one of the very few Knock Off absorbers in the tier as normally it cripples everything without an item that would activate before Knock Off like Weakness Policy. Knock Off is so common on Gliscor, often times the best switch in to Gliscor is... well, ANOTHER GLISCOR.

But the nail in the coffin has got to be Gholdengo. Gholdengo -- Gliscor's tried and true partner in crime -- makes you unable to Rapid Spin, DEFOG, and you can't even use Mortal Spin to get rid of the hazards. Your only option in these situations are Tidy Up (given to pretty underwhelming Normal types) or Court Change Cinderace (which given Libero makes it... Normal type). Gholdengo is really the only reason one would ever even consider Cinderace as hazards are a universal issue with this tier.

These 2 have caused a really unhealthy dynamic for the tier. And as much as this is said, the high level gameplay is really just positioning a Gliscor vs Gliscor match with the other 5 pokemon benefiting or countering the ones who benefit from the hazards put in play. The 2 of them cause so much stress and stranglehold on the metagame at large, that you need to account for Gholdengo WITH Gliscor. And even if that's the case, you may face a Swords Dance set and just lose on the spot.

Will I get reqs for this suspect? No, I don't think I have enough skill and certainly not enough time to continuously ladder for said reqs. But I can say with much confidence, BAN GLISCOR. It's for the good of the tier.

 

[Free Pastrami for All]

I don't think Gliscor is ban-worthy in the slightest. I believe people are acting very unwilling to adapt to the point where it appears obtuse.

There is generic counterplay to gliscor in the form of special attacks and Substitute. This is far more varied than "use Ice Beam". I do NOT think Gliscor's ability to guarantee progress through toxic, spikes, or knock off is a bad thing; in fact, I consider this a very healthy point of pressure that makes basic algorithmic gameplay have more nuance -- it's clear there are otherwise absurdly dominant defensive structures (and overbearing offensives threats that require these structures) in large part due to Terastal. I am not going to argue that here. Perhaps people don't like playing with lots of hazards and cost behind switching, but that is not what this thread is asking, as I understand.

Swords Dance sets can function as nice breakers depending on the moves, but those are pretty rare and not contributive to the angst around this pokemon.

Anyway, you can use stuff like . With their standard sets, these all turn Gliscor into a huge liability. Great Tusk acolytes, you can even do this with your old god, .

Here's a team for easy reqs.

https://pokepast.es/6622d47901814f75

 

[Bruh Wobuffet]

Okay very, very brief thoughts:

Plz Ban Thx.
Although I felt Ghold to be the bigger problem, If gliscor was suspected first, yeah ban this. Insane Versatility to the point that running it on the team have no disadvantages. I get that versatility wasn't a reason to ban mons, but in gliscor's case it is incredibly limiting on teambuilding to make sure you had to bring multi mons that could threaten gliscor, and it captivated the opportunities so easily found with toxic and spikes, which almost alway provide value. No check mon to the point where people need to literally change the moveset of their own gliscor, just to get advantage against opposing gliscor. Yeah it really shouldn't stay.

also GOAT LANDO-T probably will return if banned, so don't be upset about it's fall lol

 

[kos parasite]

I got reqs and ran into plenty of gliscor on the way yesterday. Maybe its due to my team choices (sneasler, walking wake, valiant) but I didn't have any game that I lost vs gliscor specifically where it was a big problem. I get that it is pretty restrictive and my team matches up well vs it especially when I sd twice with sneasler and call the toxic vs eq turns right then sweep. But overall I don't feel like its some big scary presence that when you see it you're like "its over". Really analytical and technical post, I know. I just don't feel like it's that broken, but I do think hazards and lack of removal is a problem. Overall I am still on the fence because of this last bit. I would like to see more consistent hazard removal, but I'm not a gamefreak dev so I may just vote ban the best spiker instead.

 

[Stads]

I will be voting Ban on Gliscor.

We're all very aware of just how potent, resilient, and downright annoying the standard specially defensive spiking set is. It forces progress on almost any opposition, throwing up hazards, poisoning key switchins such as Great Tusk, Rillaboom, and Ogerpon, and weakening everything from Kingambit to Garganacl with Knock Off. While it lost Roost, the classic Poison Heal + Protect lets Gliscor still heal up very quickly, as well as being immune or neutral to essentially every form of passive damage. In the current gen 9 meta, Protect also has a ton of other useful utility, such as scouting for Trick and Encore, baiting out Tera usage, and easing predictions. All of this together lets Gliscor contribute massively to almost any team structure against almost any team structure, and can even function as a psuedo-win con against some balance or defensive archetypes.

However, I'll admit that this defensive set still does have key weaknesses. It suffers from moderate 4MSS, really wanting to run all of Protect, Spikes, Knock Off, Earthquake, and Toxic, and whichever one it drops will induce some decent counterplay to it. Even with a fully defensive EV spread, it can still struggle to take some special hits, and it also really wants some speed investment to avoid being speed creeped. While it's typing presents it many great boons, it makes Gliscor a slightly awkward user of tera. Since Gliscor cannot run boots, grounding it often dooms Gliscor to being easily worn down through hazards. Overall, while this defensive set makes Gliscor a very strong and centralizing force, it probably has enough drawbacks and counterplay that I'd be on the fence for banning it or not.

What pushes Gliscor cleanly over the line for me is the rise of offensive sets. Usually, these run something like Protect/Swords Dance/Earthquake/Facade, but other coverage moves exist, and Agility is also a potential option. These sets completely flip Gliscor counterplay on its head, making it that much more threatening overall. Against the defensive set, you'll often try to answer Gliscor defensively, preventing it from making too much free progress while preparing to make incremental progress of your own. Some examples of switchins that match this criteria are your own Gliscor, Garganacl, and Clefable. However, the offensive Gliscor sets punish these kinds of switchins very hard, effectively gaining two free turns to setup or start chunking the opposing core. These offensive Gliscor sets are also very difficult to spot from team preview, since defensive Gliscor fits so well into essentially any archetype. Plus, offensive Gliscor can work on many archetypes as well - it can be a great wincon for balance to overcome fatter teams, while it can be a bulkier threat that absorbs knock off and status for offensive teams.

Just to be clear - Offensive Gliscor is not anywhere near banworthy on its own. It can easily be pressured by faster, harder hitting threats, or walled by mons like Corviknight and Dondozo. And as I mentioned earlier, defensive Gliscor, while an extremely good mon, isn't out of hand ridiculous on its own. But these two sets together, easily camouflaging as one another? It brings Gliscor to an entirely new level, one that's easily deserving of a ban. Flexibility is one of the strongest traits a pokemon can have, and also a trait that tends to only get stronger at higher levels of play. It backs opponents into a corner from Team Preview, needing to try to save switchins to all the different possible sets and forcing risky gambles to deal with it. While the two mons are different in many ways, I think back to Volcarona and how its different sets requiring very different counterplay finally made it banworthy this gen. Gliscor similarly benefits enormously from this flexibility, and with a surprisingly deep movepool may only be able to evolve and become more unstoppable as time goes on. For this reason, I am firmly in the Ban camp this suspect test.

 

[Docter_Peng99]

I have no way to vote anyway but I will put my thoughts here: Gliscor has been a staple of OU since gen 4 just like how volc was a staple since gen 5 and now with this suspect we could see glisc banned for the first time in its career tera def pushed it over the edge but you could say that about regieleki and volc as well so Gliscor doesn't seem banworthy but I can see where this is coming from. And yes glisc is nowhere near as versatile as volc or as fast as eleki but just having a defensive tera and poison heal means it can stay around for ages, the dlc made many old pokemon good, but then some of them didn't get buffs like roaring moon or glisc.
Edit: I am aware of the "glisc is nothing without Ghold" arguments but really even without Ghold it still has good synergy with other mons besides ghold. Ghold just so happens to be the main synergy.
Second edit: Pult and gren can both ohkoed glisc and pult has hex to exploit glisc's poison if I could vote I would definitely vote not ban.

 

[xOliver]

The problem with gliscor relies in its insane synergy with hazards. As someone said above, it has all 3 (main) hazards, Spikes, Rocks, And Tspikes. The issue does not stem from gliscor, just because there is a very obviously good spike setter in the meta, this does not mean that the issue is the pokemon itself. A certain golden pokemon that I will not name is causing other pokemon to become "at fault" for the nonsense it pulls off. If Gliscor gets banned Ting-Lu will just become better, Glimmora will become better than it already is. There is no reason to ban Gliscor at all. I will 100% be voting to Not Ban, as it does not, and should not warrant a ban or be up for suspect.

 

[VicBossMG]

I’m voting ban on gliscor simply how it just deals with the best spinner in the game called tusk by toxcing it and then protecting and even tusk gets a rapid spin it will get worn down by gliscor and he will get his hazards backup and win the exchange in the long run especially with poison heal and easily tanking one ice spinner then protect to get back to health while also switching in on other Pokémon to try to get some hp back to start the cycle againwith no hidden power to scare it, while people say well tung Lu or Glimm will take its spot, the difference is they don’t like fighting into tusk since both are weak to his stabs and have no safe way to reliably recover and ting lu hates getting knocked off while rest is it’s only form of healing while gliscor can get a knock off absorber and status one as well since it’s already poisoned. It kept tools alot of Pokémon lost like toxic and gaining all hazards made it even better despite only losing roost and if it wants, it can Tera out of its weakness being water or dragon to stay in and slowly chip away at teams. Obviously paired with dengo is the perfect combo gliscor doesn’t need him as a partner as seen in stall teams can just get hazards up while crippling tusk and wear down teammates in the long run.

 

[Idiotic Man]

I will argue that gliscors ability to force progress while strong does in of itself not immediately warrant a ban, people bring up that it has all three hazards but It rarely uses anything except for spikes and maybe rocks. In the current metagame the strength of spikes is pretty clearly attached to that of dengo making defoggers (which are already very limited as of gen 9) very sparse, I believe gliscor would be much more manageable without gholdengo, as corviknight is one of the few pokemon capable of standing up to repeated gliscor assaults while also holding the ability to remove hazards, and with pressure it can wear down gliscors hazard PP and win the long game.

As a side note by running knock off gliscor will typically lose to opposing gliscor sets from PP stalling, as well as sacrificing a moveslot of which it doesnt have many to go around with its typical defensive set being Earthquake, Toxic, Protect, Spikes

 

[Shinto7654]

People already failing the basic ass rule of stop yelling about Gholdengo in this I see

 

[LovelyLuna]

we're yelling about gholdengo and kingambit because they're both more broken than volcarona or iron bundle and those both got banned ages ago

The metagame discussion thread is right there, as it has been stated in the op multiple times, this is a thread specifically about Gliscor

Not to mention that take is horrible

 

[Magcargo]

Just ban tera at this point its making gliscor like 15x harder to kill than past generations.

I keep hearing this sentiment, that Gliscor is one of the best Tera users and that Tera makes Gliscor broken, but is this even true? Tera Gliscor loses a lot of the benefits of its base typing, including its near immunity to hazards and EQ immunity, making it easier for other gliscor to wear it down. If anything, I consider Gliscor to be one of the worst Tera users in the format alongside Corv, really only having fringe benefits to check rain in a pinch (AFTER Zapdos dies of course) and maybe being useful on SD sets. Tera also opens up some more counterplay to Gliscor IMO.

 

[Shinto7654]

we're yelling about gholdengo and kingambit because they're both more broken than volcarona or iron bundle and those both got banned ages ago

Yeah, you definitely didn't read the post in this very thread saying to stop constantly yelling about other Pokemon getting tested and banned and to actually talk about Gliscor lol

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

If Gholdengo got banned to Ubers, Gliscor would be fine in OU, maybe even drop to UU.

I think Gholdengo should have suspect tested first before Gliscor.

we're yelling about gholdengo and kingambit because they're both more broken than volcarona or iron bundle and those both got banned ages ago

I understand the anger here, but this is a suspect test solely for whether or not Gliscor being banned would be healthy for the current metagame. Even if you want something else tested first, or whatever.

If Gliscor gets banned Ting-Lu will just become better, Glimmora will become better than it already is.

My question is, is that a problem? Ting-Lu wasn't an immense problem before, since while it IS the beefcake mon of all time, it's still susceptible to hazards, needs to tera to save itself from eating huge damage from fighting ice and water moves, and if Valiant looks at it funny it probably dies. Glimmora never has been a problem, since it's almost always been relegated to HO structures as a suicide lead and probably suffers the most from Cinderace's existence. Even if you think their spikes stacking or other hazards are extremely strong and border on broken, the former can serve as reliable defensive glue without being unkillable and the latter has matchups where it just can't do anything. Gliscor serves as a wall, spikes setter, and a SD Facade user that I still think is pretty fire.

 

[TheSilv]

SO, this is my first actual post in one of these threads so woooo! (hope it isn't too awful lol)

anyways, while I understand the anti-ban side, in my opinion Gliscor is too stifling on the metagame to warrant staying atm. Gliscor's insane bulk, typing, poison heal, and its bonkers move pool lets it not only be far and away the best spiker but also fulfill a plethora of other roles. Now what for me makes Gliscor unhealthy for OU? after all stuff can do a lot of stuff and be the best at it and not be unhealthy. While there are other issues contributing to the current hazard problems of gen 9, Gliscor far and away is the most pressing cause of this atm. as a spiker it offers so much more then nearly any other spikes layer, with only Hrott being distinct enough in itself to sorta compete (yes ik they do different things and usually fit on different team styles). Gliscor can easily lay spikes due to the passive recovery of poison heal combined with its typing, at least ting lu is weak to u turn and all the close combats running around while having worse recovery options, Gliscor can just lay hazards and heal off damage from nearly anything from poison heal, as most of the stuff that can deal enough damage to it doesn't want to eat a toxic or take spikes chip. The most significant issue however is that Gliscor is immune to spikes in its own right, letting it ignore them and have the benefit while not having a stealth rock weakness or being weak to electric, which combines with the aforementioned poison heal and protect to make it extremely hard to chip down, to the point where its sometimes most safe to just leave your Gliscors in on each other and PP stall each other, which in my opinion is one of many examples that shows Gliscor is too stifling on the meta game to be healthy atm. It can absolutely be retested when the Indigo Disk comes out but atm, if we mostly agree that OU needs changes to be improved, one of the tier's main problems is hazards, and that tera cant be tested yet, then that leaves the best course of action in my opinion to Vote Ban on Gliscor

TLDR: Gliscor presence is unhealthy to OU due to its ease in putting spikes down combined with its immunity to them and its superb base typing and stats that makes it extremely difficult to take down conventionally.

 

[Moyashi]

I don't think Gliscor is ban-worthy in the slightest. I believe people are acting very unwilling to adapt to the point where it appears obtuse.

This type of argument, if you can even call if that, is pretentious and just wrong. No one has pfonldms adapting when they want to win. Whether with Gliscor, whether it's with Bloodmoon who was banned, or anything.

Perhaps people don't like playing with lots of hazards and cost behind switching, but that is not what this thread is asking, as I understand.

Gliscor itself is highly versatile which makes prepping for it difficult, as it can adapt to attempts to deal with it as seen with usage of both knock off and uturn. But also, people do have a problem with the way gliscor stacks hazards and suffocates efforts to remove them so effortlessly. And this is an issue when we have such limited removal to begin with.

Anyway, you can use stuff like . With their standard sets, these all turn Gliscor into a huge liability. Great Tusk acolytes, you can even do this with your old god, .

All of these are shredded by the hazards gliscor sets and is paired with (rocks), with OgerponW and Enamorus both fearing toxic while Moth needing tera grass to avoid being rolled by Gliscor. Only Moth gets away if it runs boots (which means limited subs) and it thuds into Heatran, a pokemon that's quite good with Gliscor. Also if those three really made Gliscor such a supposed huge liability, it wouldnt be dominating at ghe highest level so consistently.

As for Tusk, unless you run sub (a terrible move on it), you aren't doing squat.

 

[Ehmcee]

My opinion on Gliscor's changed a lot over the past few days, and I'd say I've become fairly pro-ban.

An interesting thing I'd like to talk about however is the importance of analyzing Pokemon based on the meta they're currently in. I think most people, myself included at the start have some kind of visceral reaction to hearing that Gliscor is problematic or broken, like hey the mon is good in gen 7, but nowhere near broken, why would it be broken here when the overall power level has gone way up?

I'd say there's 2 main reasons that Gliscor has gone from a balanced Pokemon in gen 7, to a broken Pokemon in gen 9.

1. The Evolution of the Hazards Metagame

2. The evolution of the Stall meta

First of all the Hazards Meta:

In a vacuum. I wouldn't necessarely even say Gliscor's been buffed that much. Losing Roost/Defog is pretty big for it, and obviously Spikes is insane on it, but that keeps 2 of it's moveslots taken up on 90% of sets (Protect as well). However it's really important to analyze how the hazards meta has evolved since Gen 7, because we didn't get the chance to use Gliscor in gen 8.

Starting in gen 8 with the advent of Heavy-Duty Boots, the entire metagame surrounding hazards were flipped on it's head. Hazards were no longer free progress against teams, because pokemon could now run boots. This changed a good amount of teams to now include the move Knock Off, removing a pokemon's boots so it would now get affected by hazards chip.

There was one pokemon in gen 8 that was entirely immune to this effect, Clefable. It quickly gained the notoriety of becoming the main "Knock Absorber" of the tier, because with Magic Guard, it simply doesn't care if hazards are stacked against it. But even in gen 8, there was still a decent amount of viable removal, you had your defog corv, defog torn, defog zapdos, defog lando, rapid spin excadrill, defog mandibuzz and many more, teams were very free to pick their hazard removal, so the tier wasn't entirely dependant on boots to thrive... however then came gen 9.

Hazards availability skyrocketed, you can see this if you compare the rocks setters and spikes setters (includes some UU pokemon, if they were above C rank):

Gen 8 Stealth Rockers: , , , , , , , , , , , ,
Gen 8 Spikers: , ,

Gen 9 Stealth Rockers: , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
Gen 9 Spikers: , , , , , , , , , , , (technically)

Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that there's a pretty substantial change between these two metas, and that's the heavily increased distribution of spikes. The thing with spikes is that it is substantially better than rocks, dealing consistent damage to everything except flying types or levitate pokemon.

Now the problem with bulkier hazard setters, is that they typically now require to run boots, as they will often be switching into some. It's no secret hazard removal is more difficult than ever in SV, and you'll have a hard time consistently getting them off.

Now here's the deal, Gliscor is the only Spikes Setter that is itself immune to spikes. This doesn't sound like a big deal until you realise that it also doesn't need to run boots, doesn't care if it's item gets knocked off, gets consistent 12% recovery (2x times leftovers mind you), has access to knock off as well as toxic. Toxic/Stab EQ on it's own is an incredible combination, there's a reason Lando-T's ran it every generation it could and has taken a huge blow to it's viability since losing Toxic.
Not to mention it's incredible defensive typing with two immunity's and only two weaknesses, the dissapearance of Hidden Power Ice incredibly boosts Gliscor's viability as well.

Now here's another thing once we start analyzing how the stall meta's evolved:

Recovery has been nerfed into the ground, running stuff like recover and roost on your stall Pokemon no longer cuts it due to the PP nerf. Regenerator's become a lot more popular do to this in combination with boots, however those pokemon are still vulnerable to getting knocked off and getting their recovery outpaced by Spikes and Rocks damage. We've seen a few Boots Pookemon forced into running Rest, to leverage their High defenses with getting healed to full, while the move has historically been considered horrible. Even something like Clefable, that is entirely immune to hazards still has trouble with limited Moonlight PP, although it does have access to wish.

Now Gliscor IS THE ONLY POKEMON IN THE GAME THAT GETS PASSIVE RELIABLE RECOVERY, think for a second how good that is. Just by existing, Gliscor gets 12% of it's HP back, not to mention it can protect to gain that percentage again. Other pokemon with leftovers recover half of that, and are reliant on not getting knocked.

Couple this with the fact that it's entirely immune to spikes, the main progress making hazard, while also immediately healing off the damage from rocks, and we get a quasi-hazard immune pokemon, who also gets 2x the recovery of leftovers without being item reliant.

If I end up getting reqs, I will certainly be voting ban,

 

[Stads]

I keep hearing this sentiment, that Gliscor is one of the best Tera users and that Tera makes Gliscor broken, but is this even true? Tera Gliscor loses a lot of the benefits of its base typing, including its near immunity to hazards and EQ immunity, making it easier for other gliscor to wear it down. If anything, I consider Gliscor to be one of the worst Tera users in the format alongside Corv, really only having fringe benefits to check rain in a pinch (AFTER Zapdos dies of course) and maybe being useful on SD sets. Tera also opens up some more counterplay to Gliscor IMO.

I don't think it's particularly true. As you mention, losing the spikes immunity is huge and lets Gliscor get meaningfully chipped down. However, I think that all else being equal, Tera is more useful on mons with a 4x weakness, since hitting the funny button can immediately erase that crippling weakness and sort of give you a free turn. So I think it's somewhere in the middle on tera usefulness, able to appreciate a timely tera water in some circumstances but by no means a standout performer.