Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - King's Dead

[Moyashi]

But before we go down this road, why don't we first settle the matter of Tera. I'm not saying Tera should be banned or not (so don't respond to my post with some speech bitching about how Tera should/shouldn't be banned because the meta would be stale and blah blah blah); but it should be at least suspected and the matter should be settled before we press further with suspecting individual mons. If we, say, keep going down the line of suspecting individual mons, then suspecting tera, and then banning tera, we then have to retest all the individual mons we just banned (Gambit, Volc, etc.) which are arguably only problematic when they have Tera to abuse. The decision making progress here sounds incredibly inefficient and backwards.

The fact is, this is how the process is being done. There hasn't been signs of reaching even a slight agreement on how to proceed with tera yet, which makes a suspect unwise as it'd likely just end up not accomplishing anything again. Right now it's more important to focus on individual mons and Kingambit is the focus. It's pretty clear that something should be done to try and balance the mechanic, but no one can fully agree on what. It'd be irresponsible to suspect now when that's the state of discussions.

And whether we like it or not, the fact is broken does check broken with the way things are.

Because that's the way things are, doesn't mean we should keep it that way. And fuck no we shouldn't keep it that way. Surveys have shown the tier needs work. Right now the focus is on Kingambit in a tera metagame and whether it should be banned. Focus on that.

 

[kingmickey27]

There hasn't been signs of reaching even a slight agreement on how to proceed with tera yet, which makes a suspect unwise as it'd likely just end up not accomplishing anything again.

The entire point of a suspect test is to come to an agreement on the matter. That's why the whole voting process exists. It's not like a suspect test means that something is going to get banned or not; the point is to settle the matter.

Because that's the way things are, doesn't mean we should keep it that way. And fuck no we shouldn't keep it that way. Surveys have shown the tier needs work. Right now the focus is on Kingambit in a tera metagame and whether it should be banned. Focus on that.

And guess what, nobody said we should keep it that way. The point is to find the most efficient course of action to fix the meta. And it's like I said, the matter with Tera should be settled first, then individual mons. The current backwards ass course of action right now only stands to potentially 1) waste time, 2) cause backtracking with decisions, and 3) cause collateral damage.

To anyone else who wants to respond to my post, I strongly advise reading it and understanding it, instead of jumping to some weird random extreme conclusions. I never said we should keep the meta the way it is. I never said Tera should be banned or not banned (seriously, do people think "ban" and "suspect" are synonymous or something lmao). And I never said Kingambit should be banned or not banned.

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

The entire point of a suspect test is to come to an agreement on the matter. That's why the whole voting process exists. It's not like a suspect test means that something is going to get banned or not; the point is to settle the matter.

There was a suspect of Tera already. No Action won due to supermajority rules at 41%-59%. Does the matter look settled to you?
The fact is that we need to find a agreement of what problematic elements of Tera need to be suspected, because repeating the previous test is an exercise in futility. Until this suspect is concluded and we can come to a definitive decision on what to move forward with for a potential tera suspect, it won't happen.

 

[kingmickey27]

There was a suspect of Tera already. No Action won due to supermajority rules at 41%-59%. Does the matter look settled to you?
The fact is that we need to find a agreement of what problematic elements of Tera need to be suspected, because repeating the previous test is an exercise in futility. Until this suspect is concluded and we can come to a definitive decision on what to move forward with for a potential tera suspect, it won't happen.

The suspect of Tera happened pre-home during the tier's infancy. And the final vote was 59.25% wanting to take action with a threshold of 60%. Moreover, there was enough support on the recent tiering survey to warrant another look at Tera and create an entire discussion thread devoted to it.

So yeah, I most certainly don't think the matter is settled, especially since a lot has changed. I really couldn't give a flying fuck about what's going on right now; what's done is done and the Gambit test is happening. I am simply pointing out the state of the meta and the fact of the matter, so that future actions aren't inefficient.

I typically play devil's advocate when it comes to banning or not banning Tera for reasons like this. People tend to get defensive at the thought of Tera potentially getting banned because it puts their precious mechanic in jeopardy and I'd rather not deal with circular nonsensical arguments from that. Given all the facts, Tera should be suspected. Whether it gets banned or not is up to the community; and no matter the result, the matter will be settled and shelved, and future tiering decisions will have a solid foundation to build upon (so cut the garbage about "ohhhh a tera suspect will accomplish nothing huheuehuheue")

 

[Moyashi]

so cut the garbage about "ohhhh a tera suspect will accomplish nothing huheuehuheue"

First, drop the attitude. Myself and others are simply pointing out that a new suspect of tera would likely amount to the same result as before because of the divided views on how to handle the mechanic, which would ultimately result in a suspect that accomplished nothing. This is why it's more practical to focus on individual pokemon and try to get something productive done to improve the tier.

I really couldn't give a flying fuck about what's going on right now; what's done is done and the Gambit test is happening. I am simply pointing out the state of the meta and the fact of the matter, so that future actions aren't inefficient.

Your original comment sure doesn't give the impression that you "don't give a flying fuck about what's going on now", since you spent a lot of time trying to argue how we should actually be testing tera first.

 

[Ctann]

Tusk is not a check, gambit is absolutely ridiculous

Tera fairy Terablast is everywhere right now

I’ll just leave this here, a note on context:

tusk is 252/4, with +1 defence
Gambit is 2 Allies fainted
Terablast OHKOed

—

Seriously no words for how people can still think gambit isn’t OP, it’s all just mental gymnastics at this point.

Your team can craft around Tera gambit to deal with literally any check you want, and by optimizing for some checks, you lose almost 0 viability as a Pokémon. It’s not like you lose other matchups as often with Tera fairy, what’s gonna hit you with a sludge bomb? Glowking? Lmao.

nope, it’s not glowking, toxapex, clodsire or even sneasler, you’re going to have to use a reactionary Tera fighting/fairy gholdengo or similar.

are people still wondering why the community doesn’t like this meta as much as it could

 

[kingmickey27]

First, drop the attitude. Myself and others are simply pointing out that a new suspect of tera would likely amount to the same result as before because of the divided views on how to handle the mechanic, which would ultimately result in a suspect that accomplished nothing. This is why it's more practical to focus on individual pokemon and try to get something productive done to improve the tier.

"Whether it gets banned or not is up to the community; and no matter the result, the matter will be settled and shelved, and future tiering decisions will have a solid foundation to build upon"

For real, what part of this do you not understand? A suspect will have accomplished something if it settles a matter. Are you telling me that a suspect test only accomplishes something if it is successful in banning something? what the fuck lol?

And I'm sorry, but if you actually think that suspect x mon -> suspect y mon -> suspect z mon -> suspect tera -> retest x/y/z is productive, then I don't know what to say to you lmao

Your original comment sure doesn't give the impression that you "don't give a flying fuck about what's going on now", since you spent a lot of time trying to argue how we should actually be testing tera first.

Yeah, because like I said, what's done is done. Gambit test is happening and comment is directed at future actions afterwards.

Last time I'm responding. All I've been doing is reiterating what I've said in my post, which is pretty clearly laid out, yet is not registering for whatever reason. If you're not going to take your time to understand it and construct a sound argument backed by logic and reasoning, then I won't waste my time continuing the discussion.

 

[JunkoAJ]

I typically play devil's advocate when it comes to banning or not banning Tera for reasons like this. People tend to get defensive at the thought of Tera potentially getting banned because it puts their precious mechanic in jeopardy and I'd rather not deal with circular nonsensical arguments from that. Given all the facts, Tera should be suspected. Whether it gets banned or not is up to the community; and no matter the result, the matter will be settled and shelved, and future tiering decisions will have a solid foundation to build upon (so cut the garbage about "ohhhh a tera suspect will accomplish nothing huheuehuheue")

Idk why people start being immature like this when they get a hint of pushback on their point. The fact of the matter is right now a Tera suspect will not happen because the council have clearly deemed the Gambit suspect is more important (65% support for action btw) and especially considering there is no general consensus on even how the Tera suspect vote will be conducted (like seriously, if you read the thread, no one knows what we should even vote on yet). And the meta was considered too volatile to action Tera immediately after HOME.

 

[Eelstartega]

Tusk is not a check, gambit is absolutely ridiculous

Tera fairy Terablast is everywhere right now

I’ll just leave this here, a note on context:

tusk is 252/4, with +1 defence
Gambit is 2 Allies fainted
Terablast OHKOed

View attachment 539831
—

Seriously no words for how people can still think gambit isn’t OP, it’s all just mental gymnastics at this point.

Your team can craft around Tera gambit to deal with literally any check you want, and by optimizing for some checks, you lose almost 0 viability as a Pokémon. It’s not like you lose other matchups as often with Tera fairy, what’s gonna hit you with a sludge bomb? Glowking? Lmao.

nope, it’s not glowking, toxapex, clodsire or even sneasler, you’re going to have to use a reactionary Tera fighting/fairy gholdengo or similar.

are people still wondering why the community doesn’t like this meta as much as it could

First of all, that scenario was a high roll... who could be replicated with a single layer of spikes and/or U-Turn/knock off chip damage.

Second, let's suppose we ban Tera Blast, maybe with open tera, the most restricted form of Tera that's not straight up ban that's being suggested.
Problem Solved, right? After all, Kingambit doesn't have ways of dealing super effective damage to fighting, right?...

Except it does. Kingambit can learn Zen Headbutt, An 80 BP physical psychic type move, as strong as Tera blast fairy. What I am saying is that Tera getting anything less than a ban would not be enough. It doesn't even need to Tera psychic btw.

Kingambit vs 1 of their 4 "checks"

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 374-440 (86.1 - 101.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

4 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 64 HP / 4 Def Tera Psychic Kingambit: 150-178 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And NO, that Tusk variant cannot invest into more attack, That would ruin the bulk up set. Also no, you cannot afford low speed because Jolly Kingambit is a relatively common set and both Gholdengo, H-Samurott, Heatran and Glimmora exist.

"But actually Great Tusk could use Tera dark/steel to get out of the situation"

Yes... and what happens is that either the Kingambit player knows the tera steel/dark and would switch no problem to one of the many Tusk checks, the opponent doesn't know Kingambit is Tera Psychic because no Open tera, or that the Kingambit was low kick all the time. An undertalk aspect of the whole Tera discussion is that revealed teras could be used as bait, allowing Kingambit to pretend having Zen Headbutt just to be your standard Low kick set.

This is worse than Volcarona, were people more or less seem to agree that we know that if Tera Blast was banned then Volcarona would be unbanned. Kingambit on the other hand just needs the bare minimum functionality of tera to break OU... and maybe not even that.
I for my part LOVE the Idea of Tera baits open tera offers, adding a 50/50 only for creative minds, but let's be real here, as long as tera not fully banned Kingambit will be busted, no buts nor ifs. And considering how unlikely is it for Tera to get fully banned over just restricted...

 

[VannAccessible]

Just watched this battle on showdown:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1915308003

Very creative use of kingambit , that demonstrates the versatility of sets available.

spoiler is below:

Spoiler

kingambit uses Tera grass with terrain support to get a 104 BP STAB to break through a standard stall team.

kingambit is already the best flying type Pokémon in OU (sorry zapdos, d nite, landorus and enamorous)

it’s also possibly the best fairy type (sorry enamorous, hatterene and azumaril)

but now.. it’s contending for more

This replay is a thing of beauty. The stall team looks so in control of the game, until it isn’t. It gave me “I’m not trapped in here with you - you’re trapped in here with me” vibes.

On the subject of Kingambit’s versatility, I was experimenting with Mental Herb to vex would be Encore checks. It might seem like a niche item, but I must say, bonking a confident Iron Valliant through Encore is quite hilarious.

 

[CTC]

Alas we are not looking at the new op abilities and moves that are literally the embodiment of power creep, such as Supreme Overlord which is a free choice band boost in the late game, or last respects, which we have banned disregarding the mon that learns it. Without the body of a sturdy gambit in the tier, ghold, pult, hat, and many other special threats will run amok, and a muk is simply not enough replacement for what gambit offers no pun. I will be voting to keep gambit UNBANNED until further action is taken to nerf it such as banning supreme overlord. The precedent of speed boost banon blaziken shares this situation and was a policy decision on pokemon-online years ago before showdown had emerged. The meta was fine, no one complained, there was slightly more diversity. I wish theres an option to keep gambit unbanned while we suspect its ability, as banning the mon outright could lead to chain events that give rise to new threats and potential suspects whereas leaving the mon unmitigated also seems unfair to the skill players.
tldr let the players vote on banning Supreme Overlord instead of gambit as a whole to keep ou stable

 

[Goodstyle]

Tusk is not a check, gambit is absolutely ridiculous

Tera fairy Terablast is everywhere right now

I’ll just leave this here, a note on context:

tusk is 252/4, with +1 defence
Gambit is 2 Allies fainted
Terablast OHKOed

View attachment 539831
—

Seriously no words for how people can still think gambit isn’t OP, it’s all just mental gymnastics at this point.

Your team can craft around Tera gambit to deal with literally any check you want, and by optimizing for some checks, you lose almost 0 viability as a Pokémon. It’s not like you lose other matchups as often with Tera fairy, what’s gonna hit you with a sludge bomb? Glowking? Lmao.

nope, it’s not glowking, toxapex, clodsire or even sneasler, you’re going to have to use a reactionary Tera fighting/fairy gholdengo or similar.

are people still wondering why the community doesn’t like this meta as much as it could

This is a ridiculous way to measure if a Pokemon is OP or not.

First of all, that is a tremendously unlikely roll, apparently an 18% chance, and something he had to burn a Tera to do.

Also, this exact dynamic applies to so many other pokemon.

What checks can stop a +2 Baxcalibur with a Tera in its back pocket? What about a +2 Ursaluna with Tera? If you let any mon SD up, thanks to Tera, there's going to be a huge price to pay no matter what.

Also, Tera Fairy is a really problematic Tera for Gambit because it makes him lose hard against other Gambits, and makes it so you can easily be revenged by Sneasler. And this is basic, but not having Iron Head as Gambit changes a lot of what he can and can't do in a lot of significant ways.

You lose the ability to one shot Iron Valiant or Enamorous with a well-placed Tera, which is huge. You lose the ability to threaten Fairy Teras in general (this is why the Low Kick set is such a double edged sword, where you lose the ability to even fight Azumarill). Not having an answer to Tera Fairy Gargancl is huge. You lose the ability to flinch your way through Amoongus or Ting-Lu in desperate situations.

If you go for a Tera Blast Kingambit, which isn't "everywhere" and is statistically far less common than Iron Head and Low Kick variants, you are trading so much for, in the best example you can provide, 1/5 chance to one shot Great Tusk after burning Tera and after already Swords Dancing.

I don't think surprise Tera reversals are a helpful way of measuring if a pokemon is OP or not.

 

[Finchinator]

Like cycle 1, you can get reqs on a cycle 2 alt if you’re participating in OLT. Keep in mind the deadline of the suspect though!

 

[LoseToRU?]

This is a ridiculous way to measure if a Pokemon is OP or not.

First of all, that is a tremendously unlikely roll, apparently an 18% chance, and something he had to burn a Tera to do.

Also, this exact dynamic applies to so many other pokemon.

What checks can stop a +2 Baxcalibur with a Tera in its back pocket? What about a +2 Ursaluna with Tera? If you let any mon SD up, thanks to Tera, there's going to be a huge price to pay no matter what.

Also, Tera Fairy is a really problematic Tera for Gambit because it makes him lose hard against other Gambits, and makes it so you can easily be revenged by Sneasler. And this is basic, but not having Iron Head as Gambit changes a lot of what he can and can't do in a lot of significant ways.

You lose the ability to one shot Iron Valiant or Enamorous with a well-placed Tera, which is huge. You lose the ability to threaten Fairy Teras in general (this is why the Low Kick set is such a double edged sword, where you lose the ability to even fight Azumarill). Not having an answer to Tera Fairy Gargancl is huge. You lose the ability to flinch your way through Amoongus or Ting-Lu in desperate situations.

If you go for a Tera Blast Kingambit, which isn't "everywhere" and is statistically far less common than Iron Head and Low Kick variants, you are trading so much for, in the best example you can provide, 1/5 chance to one shot Great Tusk after burning Tera and after already Swords Dancing.

I don't think surprise Tera reversals are a helpful way of measuring if a pokemon is OP or not.

This is exactly why I stopped posting in this thread lol.
80% of the ban gambit arguments are just calcs in a vacuum and don't account for any of the common tera talking points such as tera management, opportunity cost, defensive tera and the downsides of changing your type into new weaknesses.

It's always a max HP fallen 5 +2 Gambit where they haven't used their tera yet, which is always the best tera for the situation- and opp has wasted their tera already, and also somehow they have iron head, TB, sucker, kotow, low kick, and SD lol.

It's kinda comical watching pro-tera players use anti-tera talking points to say Gambit is broken, but don't apply any of the pro-tera logic such as what you've laid out nicely in your post.
Fairy is just this week's tera flavor of the week, it will go back to Flying, or Dark, and I've seen an influx of Ghost lately.
It's the same with Psn Bax, that thing is coming back, and I saw an Electric Val the other day.
As certain players and mods have said on this forum, 'metagame knowledge' is a part of why tera is awesome super cool (rolls eyes) so just wait a month and all these Fairy calcs won't mean much.

Gambit has actual issues that are better arguments than saying "tera breaks it" and posting some vacuum calcs.

 

[June Heat]

This is exactly why I stopped posting in this thread lol.
80% of the ban gambit arguments are just calcs in a vacuum and don't account for any of the common tera talking points such as tera management, opportunity cost, defensive tera and the downsides of changing your type into new weaknesses.

It's always a max HP fallen 5 +2 Gambit where they haven't used their tera yet, which is always the best tera for the situation- and opp has wasted their tera already, and also somehow they have iron head, TB, sucker, kotow, low kick, and SD lol.

It's kinda comical watching pro-tera players use anti-tera talking points to say Gambit is broken, but don't apply any of the pro-tera logic such as what you've laid out nicely in your post.
Fairy is just this week's tera flavor of the week, it will go back to Flying, or Dark, and I've seen an influx of Ghost lately.
It's the same with Psn Bax, that thing is coming back, and I saw an Electric Val the other day.
As certain players and mods have said on this forum, 'metagame knowledge' is a part of why tera is awesome super cool (rolls eyes) so just wait a month and all these Fairy calcs won't mean much.

Gambit has actual issues that are better arguments than saying "tera breaks it" and posting some vacuum calcs.

Then give us those arguments. Since any form of calcs are off the table, and we for some reason can’t use Tera in a Tera metagame as an argument. Pls enlighten us what should be said about Kingambit to show how it’s broken.

 

[Archer Kirby]

Alas we are not looking at the new op abilities and moves that are literally the embodiment of power creep, such as Supreme Overlord which is a free choice band boost in the late game, or last respects, which we have banned disregarding the mon that learns it. Without the body of a sturdy gambit in the tier, ghold, pult, hat, and many other special threats will run amok, and a muk is simply not enough replacement for what gambit offers no pun. I will be voting to keep gambit UNBANNED until further action is taken to nerf it such as banning supreme overlord. The precedent of speed boost banon blaziken shares this situation and was a policy decision on pokemon-online years ago before showdown had emerged. The meta was fine, no one complained, there was slightly more diversity. I wish theres an option to keep gambit unbanned while we suspect its ability, as banning the mon outright could lead to chain events that give rise to new threats and potential suspects whereas leaving the mon unmitigated also seems unfair to the skill players.
tldr let the players vote on banning Supreme Overlord instead of gambit as a whole to keep ou stable

Honestly I agree with this. I don't know why we try so hard to preserve certain abilities but remove them from others. For example, we ban certain abilities like Power Construct on Zygarde but we didn't ban Gorilla Tactics on Darm and lets be honest, even though Zen Mode stats were insane, very few people very running that and even less had an issue compared to the power of double choice items.

Gambit is the only mon that is gonna get Supreme Overlord since that's how this gen and the last few previous generally work with signature abilities on mons, and its an insane one. No-one can pretend that a free choice band isn't an insane ability, and even if sent in sooner, and its only a LO power increase, thats still significant. Gambit losing Supreme Overlord would easily keep it in the tier as Defiant in a meta without Defog would make it much harder for it to blitz your team and requires the player to actually make the right call on switching it into something like Corv lest it gets body pressed.

But this will never happen for that same reason. Smogon generally doesn't ban a move or ability unless multiple Pokemon prove to be broken with it e.g. look at Houndstone, was banned until Basculegion also dropped with Last Respects, freeing the Dog in exchange for the move being banned. Too bad Bisharp didn't get the ability as well or something.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Then give us those arguments. Since any form of calcs are off the table, and we for some reason can’t use Tera in a Tera metagame as an argument. Pls enlighten us what should be said about Kingambit to show how it’s broken.

I don't think it's broken, just way too centralizing, but not enough for me to vote ban.
To play devil's advocate tho I would focus on how splashable it is, how much it does to mons that should resist it, how broken Supreme Overlord is, how few mons actually check it, and what it does to the end game meta. Many games come down to a Gambit speed tie which is boring and uncomp af.
And I never said you can't use calcs, I'm just saying be aware that you don't always have 6 moves, max hp, +2, fallen 5, perfect tera and opp doesn't have tera anymore..
If you post +2 sucker calcs vs like an Enam showing it OHKOs after SR, then yeah that's fair.
Just keep in mind Enam can also run sub, stuff like that.

Gambit is broken in a lot of ways, but saying it's this unstoppable force of nature with no counterplay is incorrect.

 

[sims796]

Gambit is broken in a lot of ways, but saying it's this unstoppable force of nature with no counterplay is incorrect.

Thank goodness, I won't say that, I'll just vote ban (or pretend to do so with my no reqs) on the basis of it being broken in a lot of ways if that's cool.

 

[Froctopus]

It's kinda comical watching pro-tera players use anti-tera talking points to say Gambit is broken, but don't apply any of the pro-tera logic such as what you've laid out nicely in your post.
Fairy is just this week's tera flavor of the week, it will go back to Flying, or Dark, and I've seen an influx of Ghost lately.

Being Pro-Tera can be independent from being Pro/Anti Kingambit. You can want to keep Tera, and ban abusers, you can ban tera and keep OU staples, you can keep tera and its abusers in an attempt to say "Broken Checks Broken", or you can just want both banned because they are a centralizing factor in a meta game.

Is Kingambit too centralizing, yes. An aggregated ~40% usage across all levels of play, pretty pivotal role in team building.
Is Kingambit changing its Tera to play around its threats, yes (Arguably a reason the meta wouldn't get stale, but that's not for this thread)
Kingambit calcs are in a vacuum because you save your gambit check for the end of the game (when gambit comes out at 5 fallen)

 

[LoseToRU?]

Being Pro-Tera can be independent from being Pro/Anti Kingambit. You can want to keep Tera, and ban abusers, you can ban tera and keep OU staples, you can keep tera and its abusers in an attempt to say "Broken Checks Broken", or you can just want both banned because they are a centralizing factor in a meta game.

Is Kingambit too centralizing, yes. An aggregated ~40% usage across all levels of play, pretty pivotal role in team building.
Is Kingambit changing its Tera to play around its threats, yes (Arguably a reason the meta wouldn't get stale, but that's not for this thread)
Kingambit calcs are in a vacuum because you save your gambit check for the end of the game (when gambit comes out at 5 fallen)

I realize that.
First, high usage does not always equal broken- see Lando in SM and SS.

Secondly, for example: If I say Bax is broken af with Tera, and you say no Scizor handles it, and I go well no, Bax actually goes Tera Steel, and then you go nope, you should have known that and went for CC- or you go nope, just Tera Water your Lando and kill it now that it's Steel.

I've seen this logic applied to so many borderline broken mons this meta and everyone accepts arguments like that without saying a word, but if I take out Bax and put Gambit, then suddenly tera is too much and it breaks the mon.
All I'm saying is that Tera breaks mons, and that's the meta we're gonna have to live with.
Before you say something about how Tera breaks Gambit, make sure what you're saying, your logic, couldn't be applied to Bax, Val, Pult, Garg, etc.

Lastly, just because Gambit is saved, doesn't mean it's always unscathed, especially if you get an SD up.
You will rarely see a max HP fallen 5 +2 Gambit as that means no hazards, it never switched, and somehow also scared out a mon and got a free SD.
You could say fallen 5 max HP and I'll say ok, but it's when you say +2, and perfect coverage, and perfect tera, and opp has no defensive tera options left nor saved any of the base gambit checks...
Like if I have a Zama and you have a Gambit, and I don't sit on Zama like you are w Gambit, at a certain point the Zama player just played poorly if they don't keep that check back there. And you can say Tera Fairy, but then I just say Tera Steel. Just like how I said Tera Steel Bax and you say Tera Water Lando.
There are checks for gambit in base form, and there are checks for its Tera sets as well. It's about managing that like you do w every other tera mon.

 

[Moyashi]

we ban certain abilities like Power Construct on Zygarde but we didn't ban Gorilla Tactics on Darm and lets be honest, even though Zen Mode stats were insane,

Power construct was a forme change. It's an easy, non messy ban. Gtacticts would've been an arbitrary ban of a non broken ability. Also gtactics is strictly worse as an ability than huge/pure power which are not broken. So...

Gambit is the only mon that is gonna get Supreme Overlord since that's how this gen and the last few previous generally work with signature abilities on mons, and its an insane one.

It's a strong ability, but you can't argue it's broken on one pokemon or would be broken on others because we don't have other cases.

Gambit losing Supreme Overlord would easily keep it in the tier as Defiant in a meta without Defog would make it much harder for it to blitz your team and requires the player to actually make the right call on switching it into something like Corv lest it gets body pressed.

We don't choose to selectively ban singular elements of a pokemon just to keep them in the tier. That's just arbitrary preservation. We judge mons as the sum of their parts. Unless of course there is a clear piece of them (last respects) that is overtly broken and unbalanced.

I've seen this logic applied to so many borderline broken mons this meta and everyone accepts arguments like that without saying a word, but if I take out Bax and put Gambit, then suddenly tera is too much and it breaks the mon.

The issue here is you're assuming people don't think tera is pushing Bax into a potentially problematic state.

 

[Froctopus]

First, high usage does not always equal broken- see Lando in SM and SS.
Secondly, for example: If I say Bax is broken af with Tera,
I've seen this logic applied to so many borderline broken mons this meta and everyone accepts arguments like that without saying a word, but if I take out Bax and put Gambit, then suddenly tera is too much and it breaks the mon.
Lastly, just because Gambit is saved, doesn't mean it's always unscathed,

You have a point with High usage, I was trying to make the point that its so centralizing and that you HAVE to prepare for it.

The reason I'm talking about Gambit is that this is the gambit forum and so I'm trying not to stray too far from that mon.

Tera breaks everything, that's the entire point of tera. Its brings a new way to play, so instead of being "scared" out by a counter/check, you can stay in. But you can only do this once, and its a tempo advantage if you do it ahead on tempo you gain STAB, if you do it behind tempo you can get a revenge KO. The entire reason behind why Tera is passable is that it is a symmetrical effect. The reason why it feels so bad on Gambit is that it is in the end game. Where if you don't play right you lose. It makes every decision more annoying because you KNOW that the gambit is going to tera. The Bax/Scizor/Lando situation is hard to comprehend because its in a vacuum (I see your frustration with the calcs), but there is no certainty that any of those will tera until the other one tera's first.

Being able to get the SD off in the end game is, in my opinon, solely based on your tera typing for your end game. If you prepped for the right end game you can get a 'free' turn by teraing and getting the dance off and now the better player wins. Now I see how that is can be unreasonable because there is no possible way for you to have the extra typing you need. Which gets into your example of Bax and Scizor.

 

[658Greninja]

Alas we are not looking at the new op abilities and moves that are literally the embodiment of power creep, such as Supreme Overlord which is a free choice band boost in the late game, or last respects, which we have banned disregarding the mon that learns it.

“Hey lets unban Kyogre, but it can’t use any water type moves, or how bout unbanning Urshifu but not letting it use Wicked Blow.”

Complex bans don’t work. Banning Speed Boost over Blaziken in Gen 5 doesn’t work because Yanmega and Ninjask aren’t broken with it. The only abilities banned from OU were shit like Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Moody, and Evasion-related abolities because they were inherently uncompetitive and single handedly shot put untiered mons like Glalie and Gothitelle to becoming Ubers. Shed Tail was banned after Cyclizar was qb’d cause we found out Orthworm was broken with it. Houndstone was banned before Last Respecte cause it was the only user of the move til Basculegion was releaser. We didn’t ban Gorrila Tactics because G-Darm is the only mon with it, why not just ban G-Darm? Its the same with Kingambit. Supreme Overlord is a great ability but it doesn’t catapult a mon like Luxray to OU.

You can’t make any Pokemon balanced for OU if you remove the option to use certain moves or abilities. Its simpler to ban the Pokemon in question rather than giving them individual rulesets on what not to use.

Without the body of a sturdy gambit in the tier, ghold, pult, hat, and many other special threats will run amok, and a muk is simply not enough replacement for what gambit offers no pun.

Even me being pro-Gambit, I think this is not a good reason to keep Gambit. There are good reasons to keeping it but “broken checks broken” is not it.

If Ghold ends up being broken in a Gambit-less meta (which is prob won’t) we can suspect Ghold. Not to mention the tier has several ghost checks like Ting-Lu, Tran, Garg, Luna, Moon, Molt, etc.

A better argument for keeping something in the tier is that Gambit has enough counterplay that can be easily slotted in without it being soley there for Gambit.

 

[Storm Zone]

I read every post here, okay, i played more games in this meta than anybody else, ive lost to kingambit many times and ive won with it many times, and i want to give my reasoning as to why i think gambit should not be banned and why i am voting do not ban:

- The first reason is its speed, it needs to click sucker punch to beat faster powerful mons like enamorus and iron valiant, and people will argue against this and say it will tera and blow past these, but keep in mind if it teras it gains a new weakness, tera fire, it loses to tusk eq and lando eq, tera flying, it loses to ice shard band bax or subdd bax, tera dark, loses to valiant and enamorus(with sub), kingambit is very slow and comes with a penalty depending on the set, if it runs sd low kick, u know it cannot touch valiant, it runs sd iron head, u know it cannot beat other lowkick gambits, and even other sd gambits, if it runs 4 attacks, u know its not sd and great tusk walls, zamazenta with irondefense will also wall, its why we kept zamazenta remember?

- The second reason is it has loads of counterplay:
1. Utility moves like encore, wisp
2. Irondef fast corv
3. Bulk up tusk, and even regular tusk they run spinner for tera flying
4. Iron valiant with encore , sometimes beats it without
5. Sub enamorus
6. Flame body wisp heatran
7. Encore scream tail
8. Sub walking wake in sun/outside sun with tera
9. Iron defense zamazenta
10. Helm defensive lando with rock move
11. Wisp moltres
12. Low kick meowscarada/gambit itself
13. Sub iron moth
14. Tera fighting zapdos
15. Wisp cinderace
16. Encore dragonite
17. Specs enamorus tera fairy moonblast , therian in the trickroom tanks the sucker at +2 fallen 5
18. Hisui lilligant(which has a huge niche outside just checkin gambit)
19. Breloom with spore
20. Tera dondozo, curse without tera can also beat it, its just people choose to not run curse.

Some people will say some of these wont check it or give me calcs but if played well they will, also each of these have other niches outside checking gambit so its good for other stuff, its like when people said to use cloak to check garganacl, argue against that if ur saying these are used specifically to check kingambit. Also some people will say these include tera to check it, but they say gambit will tera too, so using tera to check a tera'd pokemon is a valid argument.

- The third reason is a Double Standard:

People say gambit forces u to put a counter or check for it, but that is not enough to warrant a ban, if you are using that faulty logic, you would ban baxcalibur, garganacl, iron valiant, enamorus oh god especially enamorus, gholdengo, great tusk, iron moth, sneasler, zapdos, samurott hisui or ceaseless edge, walking wake, dragapult, dragonite, slowking galar(i see no one mentioning this thing made alola muk get usage), see how many pokemon need counterplay? Needing counter-play isnt sufficient and that argument should be discarded immediately.

- My fourth reason is gonna be the controversial one and people are gonna try to just lump it into the broken checks broken argument and disregard it, so READ IT FIRST BEFORE U JUST LABEL IT:

Its not broken checks broken at all, by that logic , volcarona would be broken in ss without heatran, and heatran isnt broken, same with magearna for lele in 7, its not that its keeping ONE thing from coming off the hinges, it can potentially break HALF the ENTIRE tier if it goes, and you not gonna sit here and say half the tier should be looked into if that happens thats false, ignorant and illogical and i will disregard that immediately, gholdengo, baxcalibur, iron valiant, dragapult, enamorus(already broken tbh but only cuz of volcarona ban), garganacl(oh my god this thing will become insane), ting lu, samurott hisui, meowscarada(yes i know people will say this is gonna blow up because gambit was one of its main checks), roaring moon, sneasler(with tera), CRESSELIA, mew, all stored power mons, and dare i say even rain will get better because gambit sucker was one of the biggest stops to rain, basculegion will be unhinged. Obviously with the time window finch has he will NOT have time to look into ALL of these and if kingambit does get banned he would eventually realise it was a mistake half way through.

- My fifth reason is its a nice staple on balance and defensive teams, which is underexplored, its easy to fit, role compression, a steel type, a ghost resist with priority, that is huge in a meta like this to keep it healthy, defensive teams benefit, offensive teams benefit, everybody wins here, and its a nice breaker to have on different turn managing playstyles, rain u can use tera water, sun tera fire, grassy terrain tera grass, balance tera dark or fighting, even tera ice in snow which i have yet to test since its underexplored, it can make each of these playstyles that much more viable in this meta and any pokemon that can make underrated or almost unviable playstyles more viable is a healthy presence in my eyes. Yes it hits hard and can change its type but thats all it has, so does bax but bax is faster, people say use balloon dengo to check bax, why cant we slap a tusk or an encore valiant to check gambit then.

- My sixth reason is the entire meta has adapted against it right now, stuff like tera fairy focus blast dengo , encore valiant, sneasler, tusk, moltres, are common now,
And they have been proven to have other niches outside checking gambit , moltres checks fairies like enamorus and valiant, tusk is a knocker, rocker and spinner that can beat dengo, ting lu which is rare, valiant needs no explanation as to why its useful outside of gambit it checks everything. Also arguments about kingambit being centralising can be proven invalid because great tusk has something like 60% usage and its more centralising than gambit will ever be, but does that mean we would ban tusk? I really think not. We adapted to walking wake nicely , scream tail and other wake checks were proven to be amazing, and it looks like the gambit checks prove the same and i know people will say "with the right tera" kingambit can beat these checks BUT THATS THE KEY, it needs the right tera and the odds of that are 1 in 18 because u can tera into any type, we account for every tera, and if it does have the right tera, it gains a new weakness, so something else on your team would usually be able to revenge it and if not the odds of that happening are like 10% because usually a good team would have a revenge killer for all tera types.

My final reason is it has good utility, as common as it is, its under explored, if ur team has no rocker it can serve as a rocker, it can run taunt, twave, it can be used as a good utility mon, people just look past that and prefer to make it a "sweeper" but thats not better in every instance, on fatter builds defensive gambit has a niche, no one cares to explore it, speaking of which nobody cares to explore more options in this meta, imma go ahead and shut down something someone said about teams being trademarked , i suggest u dont go there because vert and i would own every team and comp, we tried everything and we still innovating and exploring, im about to build with another nu mon, lmao, but yeah kingambit is a nice utility mon and can be used defensively, another reason its healthy to keep.

thanks for everyone who took the time to read my reasoning this is my stance on kingambit and i will be voting do not ban , this is the first and last time ill be checking or posting in this thread just wanted to give my honest thoughts and opinions that i share with fellow friends and pro dnb users sufys12 Vert and Mimikyu Stardust im out pce.

 

[arnimacarni]

Idk guys, maybe this is too naive of an argument, but do we want an OU with Ghold Bax Pult Val and Gambit or do we want Tusk Pex SamuH Lando and Corv? Even if the Power Level is high, I'm enjoying the flavour of SV OU, and I do believe that if Gambit goes then the tier falls apart, but I'm really liking it thus far. Either way it's fine, but it's a Snorlax GSC kinda thing. If Gambit goes, enough stuff will follow that we could start OUBL with Gambit Val Espathra Volc Eleki Mage Ghold etc etc. Two flavours, pick the one you prefer, rational discussion around Gambit is too centered on the hypothetical at this point in time.