Welp, time for half of the forum to suddenly shift to DNB. Well done writing this, as someone who is starting to agree with both sides of the situation, this is a well written argument.I read every post here, okay, i played more games in this meta than anybody else, ive lost to kingambit many times and ive won with it many times, and i want to give my reasoning as to why i think gambit should not be banned and why i am voting do not ban:
- The first reason is its speed, it needs to click sucker punch to beat faster powerful mons like enamorus and iron valiant, and people will argue against this and say it will tera and blow past these, but keep in mind if it teras it gains a new weakness, tera fire, it loses to tusk eq and lando eq, tera flying, it loses to ice shard band bax or subdd bax, tera dark, loses to valiant and enamorus(with sub), kingambit is very slow and comes with a penalty depending on the set, if it runs sd low kick, u know it cannot touch valiant, it runs sd iron head, u know it cannot beat other lowkick gambits, and even other sd gambits, if it runs 4 attacks, u know its not sd and great tusk walls, zamazenta with irondefense will also wall, its why we kept zamazenta remember?
- The second reason is it has loads of counterplay:
1. Utility moves like encore, wisp
2. Irondef fast corv
3. Bulk up tusk, and even regular tusk they run spinner for tera flying
4. Iron valiant with encore , sometimes beats it without
5. Sub enamorus
6. Flame body wisp heatran
7. Encore scream tail
8. Sub walking wake in sun/outside sun with tera
9. Iron defense zamazenta
10. Helm defensive lando with rock move
11. Wisp moltres
12. Low kick meowscarada/gambit itself
13. Sub iron moth
14. Tera fighting zapdos
15. Wisp cinderace
16. Encore dragonite
17. Specs enamorus tera fairy moonblast , therian in the trickroom tanks the sucker at +2 fallen 5
18. Hisui lilligant(which has a huge niche outside just checkin gambit)
19. Breloom with spore
20. Tera dondozo, curse without tera can also beat it, its just people choose to not run curse.
Some people will say some of these wont check it or give me calcs but if played well they will, also each of these have other niches outside checking gambit so its good for other stuff, its like when people said to use cloak to check garganacl, argue against that if ur saying these are used specifically to check kingambit. Also some people will say these include tera to check it, but they say gambit will tera too, so using tera to check a tera'd pokemon is a valid argument.
- The third reason is a Double Standard:
People say gambit forces u to put a counter or check for it, but that is not enough to warrant a ban, if you are using that faulty logic, you would ban baxcalibur, garganacl, iron valiant, enamorus oh god especially enamorus, gholdengo, great tusk, iron moth, sneasler, zapdos, samurott hisui or ceaseless edge, walking wake, dragapult, dragonite, slowking galar(i see no one mentioning this thing made alola muk get usage), see how many pokemon need counterplay? Needing counter-play isnt sufficient and that argument should be discarded immediately.
- My fourth reason is gonna be the controversial one and people are gonna try to just lump it into the broken checks broken argument and disregard it, so READ IT FIRST BEFORE U JUST LABEL IT:
Its not broken checks broken at all, by that logic , volcarona would be broken in ss without heatran, and heatran isnt broken, same with magearna for lele in 7, its not that its keeping ONE thing from coming off the hinges, it can potentially break HALF the ENTIRE tier if it goes, and you not gonna sit here and say half the tier should be looked into if that happens thats false, ignorant and illogical and i will disregard that immediately, gholdengo, baxcalibur, iron valiant, dragapult, enamorus(already broken tbh but only cuz of volcarona ban), garganacl(oh my god this thing will become insane), ting lu, samurott hisui, meowscarada(yes i know people will say this is gonna blow up because gambit was one of its main checks), roaring moon, sneasler(with tera), CRESSELIA, mew, all stored power mons, and dare i say even rain will get better because gambit sucker was one of the biggest stops to rain, basculegion will be unhinged. Obviously with the time window finch has he will NOT have time to look into ALL of these and if kingambit does get banned he would eventually realise it was a mistake half way through.
- My fifth reason is its a nice staple on balance and defensive teams, which is underexplored, its easy to fit, role compression, a steel type, a ghost resist with priority, that is huge in a meta like this to keep it healthy, defensive teams benefit, offensive teams benefit, everybody wins here, and its a nice breaker to have on different turn managing playstyles, rain u can use tera water, sun tera fire, grassy terrain tera grass, balance tera dark or fighting, even tera ice in snow which i have yet to test since its underexplored, it can make each of these playstyles that much more viable in this meta and any pokemon that can make underrated or almost unviable playstyles more viable is a healthy presence in my eyes. Yes it hits hard and can change its type but thats all it has, so does bax but bax is faster, people say use balloon dengo to check bax, why cant we slap a tusk or an encore valiant to check gambit then.
- My sixth reason is the entire meta has adapted against it right now, stuff like tera fairy focus blast dengo , encore valiant, sneasler, tusk, moltres, are common now,
And they have been proven to have other niches outside checking gambit , moltres checks fairies like enamorus and valiant, tusk is a knocker, rocker and spinner that can beat dengo, ting lu which is rare, valiant needs no explanation as to why its useful outside of gambit it checks everything. Also arguments about kingambit being centralising can be proven invalid because great tusk has something like 60% usage and its more centralising than gambit will ever be, but does that mean we would ban tusk? I really think not. We adapted to walking wake nicely , scream tail and other wake checks were proven to be amazing, and it looks like the gambit checks prove the same and i know people will say "with the right tera" kingambit can beat these checks BUT THATS THE KEY, it needs the right tera and the odds of that are 1 in 18 because u can tera into any type, we account for every tera, and if it does have the right tera, it gains a new weakness, so something else on your team would usually be able to revenge it and if not the odds of that happening are like 10% because usually a good team would have a revenge killer for all tera types.
My final reason is it has good utility, as common as it is, its under explored, if ur team has no rocker it can serve as a rocker, it can run taunt, twave, it can be used as a good utility mon, people just look past that and prefer to make it a "sweeper" but thats not better in every instance, on fatter builds defensive gambit has a niche, no one cares to explore it, speaking of which nobody cares to explore more options in this meta, imma go ahead and shut down something someone said about teams being trademarked , i suggest u dont go there because vert and i would own every team and comp, we tried everything and we still innovating and exploring, im about to build with another nu mon, lmao, but yeah kingambit is a nice utility mon and can be used defensively, another reason its healthy to keep.
thanks for everyone who took the time to read my reasoning this is my stance on kingambit and i will be voting do not ban , this is the first and last time ill be checking or posting in this thread just wanted to give my honest thoughts and opinions that i share with fellow friends and pro dnb users sufys12 Vert and Mimikyu Stardust im out pce.
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - King's Dead
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Welp, time for half of the forum to suddenly shift to DNB. Well done writing this, as someone who is starting to agree with both sides of the situation, this is a well written argument.
Just to be clear, banning Supreme Overlord would not be a complex ban. The term complex in this context means with multiple parts, i.e. "Blaziken (part 1) cannot use Speed Boost (part 2)". A Supreme Overlord ban would be a simple ban, there's only one thing.
Every time people bring up checks, they disregard the fact that you often need 2-3 of them to properly deal with gambit.
in many cases, you’re sacking 2-3 of these checks!!!! This is in stark contrast to the other controversial threats, where you can 1-Pokémon answer them if you absolutely are weak to them.
Needing so many bodies to deal with gambit comes at a cost. It’s pressuring the team builder and forcing you to lose to the team, thanks to needing to deal with the gambit. How is this not OP?! Just because the gambit fainted and didn’t end the game, thanks to your 3 excellent checks, that didn’t make it useless. On the contrary, it enabled the opponent to do more.
the data is there, look at gambit recent win rate despite all the experienced players having multiple checks
there’s a big sense of being in denial about it’s OP-ness because of how important it’s utility and typing/stats are.
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Purely looking at it for how good it is,
When you compare it to the other Pokémon in the OP discussion:
- Baxcalibur: this is understandably borderline, fortunately steel type + balloon is actually a reliable, one Pokémon answer, if you need to deal with it. Otherwise you do have options like mediocre ice resists such as cinderace revenging swords dance sets, whilst DD sets have a hard time getting the critical 2 boosts needed. In comparison, you can’t use mediocre sucker punch resists like sneasler or meowscarada to revenge a +2 gambit.
- Valiant: once again, controversial, however you can actually use a 1 Pokémon answer such as bulky Moltres, zapdos with volt switch + priority, SpDef landorus, colbur glowking, there’s even a few more that come to mind specifically for dealing with its most common sets, tho they’ll have a hard time against the right coverage. With valiant, it’s less about how reliably you can deal with it, and more so that its versatility is very potent, however usually it comes at a noticeable cost that gambit doesn’t have, due to the amazing coverage of +2 dark attacks.
- Enamorous: this is arguably OP due to how much of the meta is hit SE by moonblast, and a lot of the resists don’t like its coverage. One Pokémon answers include moltres and not much more, but enamorous can’t really take 2-3 hits from OU staples like gambit can. It also has to deal with SR weakness, which, when combined with its frailty, makes it less reliable at making progress than mr gambit. It doesn’t have sweeping move equivalents of SD, or DD that bax has
- Garganacl: great Pokémon, but relies on Tera water for consistency (tera water allows it to near-solo most sun and rain teams, whilst Tera fairy gets overwhelmed too easily, tera fairy also gets a steel weakness, making it dead weight in many gambit matchups), which means that running moves like grass knot, thunderbolt, your own salt cure, etc becomes a very simple way to deal with it, you can add in future sight for weird poison tera types, there’s answers to every set. The easiest is possibly covert cloak + bulky Mon which turns garganacl into a useless Pokémon at making progress. Not even in the same discussion as the others as despite how incredibly strong it can be after the first boost, finding answers is essy, there isn’t even a 1 Pokémon answer needed for garganacl, you can solve it with 2 complementary movesets or an item. For example: 58 speed glowking with chilly reception is a common switch in to most garg, but loses to 85 speed garganacl with curse, so you combine this glowking variant with grass knot, or left overs tusk, etc. such a tiny investment for dealing with a top threat
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We haven’t even discussed yet that a lot of the gambit checks that can be switched out of, such as encore and will-o-wisp. It’s not as easy for baxcalibur to switch out of the balloon gholdengo using money rain, and then come back into SR later to try and do some damage again.
valiant loses its speed boost once it switches out
enamorous is similar to bax, and Pokémon’s like moltres with u turn + a faster SE Pokémon create a win-win for the moltres user if you stay in or switch out.
garganacl can switch out a lot to avoid the inevitable knock offs, etc. although it’s much more easily blanked than the others.
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imo some Pokémon’s like Bax, enamorous and valiant are definitely contentious for a reason as well, and all should definitely be considered for suspects. Although none of them, in the current meta, are as problematic as Kingambit.
gambit needs to be assessed for what it is, and not assessed for what the meta would potentially become without it.
in many cases, you’re sacking 2-3 of these checks!!!! This is in stark contrast to the other controversial threats, where you can 1-Pokémon answer them if you absolutely are weak to them.
Needing so many bodies to deal with gambit comes at a cost. It’s pressuring the team builder and forcing you to lose to the team, thanks to needing to deal with the gambit. How is this not OP?! Just because the gambit fainted and didn’t end the game, thanks to your 3 excellent checks, that didn’t make it useless. On the contrary, it enabled the opponent to do more.
the data is there, look at gambit recent win rate despite all the experienced players having multiple checks
there’s a big sense of being in denial about it’s OP-ness because of how important it’s utility and typing/stats are.
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Purely looking at it for how good it is,
When you compare it to the other Pokémon in the OP discussion:
- Baxcalibur: this is understandably borderline, fortunately steel type + balloon is actually a reliable, one Pokémon answer, if you need to deal with it. Otherwise you do have options like mediocre ice resists such as cinderace revenging swords dance sets, whilst DD sets have a hard time getting the critical 2 boosts needed. In comparison, you can’t use mediocre sucker punch resists like sneasler or meowscarada to revenge a +2 gambit.
- Valiant: once again, controversial, however you can actually use a 1 Pokémon answer such as bulky Moltres, zapdos with volt switch + priority, SpDef landorus, colbur glowking, there’s even a few more that come to mind specifically for dealing with its most common sets, tho they’ll have a hard time against the right coverage. With valiant, it’s less about how reliably you can deal with it, and more so that its versatility is very potent, however usually it comes at a noticeable cost that gambit doesn’t have, due to the amazing coverage of +2 dark attacks.
- Enamorous: this is arguably OP due to how much of the meta is hit SE by moonblast, and a lot of the resists don’t like its coverage. One Pokémon answers include moltres and not much more, but enamorous can’t really take 2-3 hits from OU staples like gambit can. It also has to deal with SR weakness, which, when combined with its frailty, makes it less reliable at making progress than mr gambit. It doesn’t have sweeping move equivalents of SD, or DD that bax has
- Garganacl: great Pokémon, but relies on Tera water for consistency (tera water allows it to near-solo most sun and rain teams, whilst Tera fairy gets overwhelmed too easily, tera fairy also gets a steel weakness, making it dead weight in many gambit matchups), which means that running moves like grass knot, thunderbolt, your own salt cure, etc becomes a very simple way to deal with it, you can add in future sight for weird poison tera types, there’s answers to every set. The easiest is possibly covert cloak + bulky Mon which turns garganacl into a useless Pokémon at making progress. Not even in the same discussion as the others as despite how incredibly strong it can be after the first boost, finding answers is essy, there isn’t even a 1 Pokémon answer needed for garganacl, you can solve it with 2 complementary movesets or an item. For example: 58 speed glowking with chilly reception is a common switch in to most garg, but loses to 85 speed garganacl with curse, so you combine this glowking variant with grass knot, or left overs tusk, etc. such a tiny investment for dealing with a top threat
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We haven’t even discussed yet that a lot of the gambit checks that can be switched out of, such as encore and will-o-wisp. It’s not as easy for baxcalibur to switch out of the balloon gholdengo using money rain, and then come back into SR later to try and do some damage again.
valiant loses its speed boost once it switches out
enamorous is similar to bax, and Pokémon’s like moltres with u turn + a faster SE Pokémon create a win-win for the moltres user if you stay in or switch out.
garganacl can switch out a lot to avoid the inevitable knock offs, etc. although it’s much more easily blanked than the others.
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imo some Pokémon’s like Bax, enamorous and valiant are definitely contentious for a reason as well, and all should definitely be considered for suspects. Although none of them, in the current meta, are as problematic as Kingambit.
gambit needs to be assessed for what it is, and not assessed for what the meta would potentially become without it.
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Fair warning, but if you try and make a serious argument and if you use the term “OUBL” ppl aren’t gonna take you seriously. OUBL is a meme and will always be one.
1a. Encore works well, however it just buys time, doesn’t actually deal with it directly. Also the easiest utility move to switch out of
1b. Wisp is good, in many end game situations, the gambit user just uses SD again against the cinderace, dragapult, rotom, etc.
2. yes useful, until you lose to +2 low kick when you need to roost. although overall 1 of the 3 checks you’ll need on your team.
3. Yes useful, until the Tera fairy gambit OHKOs the tusk and then the roaring moon has a field day on your make it rain gholdengo that Tera-fairied to dispose of the +2 fairy gambit. overall 1 of the 3 checks you’ll need on your team.
4. Sure, it revenges most gambit. It can’t actually beat it or switch in. See point 1 for more info about encore, if it’s switched out of, then valiant didn’t get a critical setup turn, and can be disposed of more easily.
5. yes this is okay, except it can’t OHKO standard gambit, so healthy end game gambit doesn’t need to predict with sucker punch and can just spam it’s reliable attacks. Overall 1 of the 3 checks you’ll need.
6. What other value does it bring to the table, outside of using Tera fighting or substitute in a clutch endgame scenario to deal with gambit. Assuming it has a Tera fairy/fighting at its disposal, and also strong attacks, this is actually a viable 1-Pokémon answer to a lot of gambit variants, although it’s extremely specific! If you don’t over specify it, it’s definitely 1 of the 3 checks you’ll need, and if the set is scouted at all by any of the gambit partners, then chances are you will have a hard time making progress anyway.
7. very good answer, until the gambit player predicts a timely iron head on the switch in. See point 1 for making progress angainst the gambit, Overall 1 of the 3 checks you’ll need.
8. Decent check, most sub users pack booster energy, otherwise it’s a very specific play to deal with gambit. See heatran for more. Overall 1 of the 3 checks you’ll need.
9. Have tried this at length, it’s not a reliable answer, due to the frequency of fairy gambit and the low opportunity cost of it. Overall 1 of the 3 checks you’ll need.
10. This is good, semi-reliable, no answer to fairy, but is reliable at getting it to sub 60%, for your Tera fighting gholdengo to revenge. Overall 1 of the 3 checks you’ll need.
11. excellent pick, tho hard time switching in. Similar to Volcarona, without the game ending potential. Tera fire is rare right now, but needs to be healthy enough to survive +3 burned kowtow cleave, since it won’t OHKO with flamethrower. Overall 1 of the 3 checks you’ll need.
12. Meowscarada needs both sucker punch and low kick, and the right predictions, to break gambit. It can’t OHKO until the gambit is at low range, and the only way to beat most gambit is to predict 50/50s due to its frailty and susceptibility to +2 sucker punch. Not a check to end game gambit, however excellent earlier in the match due to disposing of its bulk or outright OHKOing. Overall 1 of the 3 checks you’ll need.
13-20, I’m getting repetive , but the dondozo is actually an amazing check. Breloom is possibly the most reliable offensive revenger/check fo kingambit in OU.
If you have a healthy breloom, you will reliably check almost all variants of kingambit in all games it’s not packing lum berry. Meanwhile dondozo is reliable but can still be beaten by fighting or dark gambit, or the most likely scenario, getting stuck in a rest cycle and losing the the inevitable critical hit.
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Using a defensive Tera to check offensive Tera is giving dynamax vibes. “You just gotta dynamax to get through the 3 turns the opponent dynamaxed, it’s okay”
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Was gonna try to post an essay, but now I feel defeated. Not because I 100% agree with what Storm Zone said, but because I don’t have the prestige nor do I think any one will meaningfully interact with it at this point.
So I gotta ask, did we learn anything from this suspect? I feel like all I learned is that people aren’t willing to remove anything from the tier to try and improve it. People that hate Tera will vote DNB on anything that isn’t Tera related. Top level players won’t change anything if it means they have to change the way they tackle this meta. Mid level players are split.
yes I know I’m being a hyperbolic, drama queen, but at this point it really feels like people are just okay with a broken checks broken meta. Can’t get rid of Enamorous because Bax, Val, Pult, Gambit get better. Can’t get rid of Bax because Gambit, Enam, Pult, and fat get better. Can’t get rid of X because y and z. It’s a frustrating line of thinking that only facilitates nothing positive getting done. All I know is next tiering survey I better see positive scores for metagame health and fun.
So I gotta ask, did we learn anything from this suspect? I feel like all I learned is that people aren’t willing to remove anything from the tier to try and improve it. People that hate Tera will vote DNB on anything that isn’t Tera related. Top level players won’t change anything if it means they have to change the way they tackle this meta. Mid level players are split.
yes I know I’m being a hyperbolic, drama queen, but at this point it really feels like people are just okay with a broken checks broken meta. Can’t get rid of Enamorous because Bax, Val, Pult, Gambit get better. Can’t get rid of Bax because Gambit, Enam, Pult, and fat get better. Can’t get rid of X because y and z. It’s a frustrating line of thinking that only facilitates nothing positive getting done. All I know is next tiering survey I better see positive scores for metagame health and fun.
Kingambit Or as I like to call him, gambito. Where to start with this silly little... no, big bladed fellow?
Let's give him a decent intro.
Kingambit is a Dark/Steel type pokemon. It is the final evolution of bisharp, and the (supposed) conclusion to their chess piece evolution line. To keep up with bisharp and pawniard, kingambit is a strong but slow attacker, who relies quite a lot on sucker punch to kill anything faster than it. As to help out with that, gf gave gambit a wonderful stat spread of 100/135/120/65/85/50. As if he needed more help, they gave him a brand new ability, Supreme Overlord. As we're all aware, this ability gives it a .1 boost to all it's attacks, per each teammate that has fainted. Up to a maximum of a 1.5x boost, which is akin to a choice band. It's kinda ironic, how the king, the piece that all others throw their lives away to protect since it's so incapable of protecting itself, casually becomes a juggernaut of death and destruction when brought to Paldea. Sure do hope gf never makes queengambit.
Anyways, introduction done with, now let's enter the world of gen 9! The generation where a beta mega-mence is barely OU, and a dog can harvest souls to become akin to a hydrogen bomb, but that's not important here. As you lot were talking about whether or not kingambit is broken, I've been lurking, and reading. There's been a few arguments about whether or not we should keep kingambit, and in my humble opinion, I say feed him to koraidon. I've basically put what I believe to be three arguments to keep him, and my thoughts and opinions on such arguments.
1 - Kingambit holds the tier together.
Well this one is an interesting case. Because I wonder, in what world is kingambit holding the tier together from, exactly? The most common answers to this are
and 
. And, well... to put it simply, my most honest, most sincere reaction to this information could not be anything else but:The two shadow ball spammers already have a serious issue getting past these three, considering blissey takes nothing, ting takes about 3% after lefties and clod has bulk + recovery + typing with toxic to pressure pult and eq for dengo, but I understand that these three don't fit in multiple team archetypes. Hence why we can propose a few others mons who can take them well enough or keep them sitting down to make sure they don't get too silly.
Outspeeds dengo, underspeeds pult. It has STAB ceaseless which is a guaranteed ohko against both (safe from defensive sets), and sucker punches which prolly ohkos pult after a single layer of it's own spikes being set. You may need to avoid specs dracos, but uninvested hrott has the bulk to come into about two sballs and force pult out, and simply maul dengo (safe from a fblast landing on your ass). You still do enough damage to two ko after a wisp/a reflect goes up.252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 354-416 (111.6 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 254-302 (80.1 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 354-416 (93.1 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragapult through Reflect: 177-208 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Sharpness burned Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 177-208 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 115-136 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 128-152 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 373-441 (116.1 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Do not get draco'd bro it is not worth it.
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 290-344 (92 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 210-248 (66.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 93-111 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 5.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 141-166 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
Stupid cheesestring
252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 254-302 (80.1 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 354-416 (93.1 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragapult through Reflect: 177-208 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Sharpness burned Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 177-208 (46.5 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 115-136 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 128-152 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 373-441 (116.1 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Do not get draco'd bro it is not worth it.
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 290-344 (92 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 210-248 (66.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 93-111 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 5.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 141-166 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
Stupid cheesestring
Outspeeds dengo naturally, outspeeds pult upon switchin (assuming quark speed). Under speeds after.
Ok so this guy lives none of their moves, but completely rags on pult if brought in after properly read draco/ddarts switch/an allied death. With an sd/1 cm + spike layer, knock/shadow ball will kill any offensive dengo. You will require two CMs for a chance at killing defensive dengo. The good thing is this guy beats the rest of the tier, so after any setup he's prolly getting another kill beyond these two goofballs.
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 372-440 (97.8 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 696-820 (183.1 - 215.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 246-289 (85.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
180 SpA Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 250-295 (86.5 - 102%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
(Swap your valiants into pults trust me guys)
+2 252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 442-520 (140.3 - 165%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Valiant Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 266-314 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252 SpA Iron Valiant Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 356-420 (94.1 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 202-238 (69.6 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Trust the process
+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 696-820 (183.1 - 215.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 246-289 (85.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
180 SpA Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 250-295 (86.5 - 102%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
(Swap your valiants into pults trust me guys)
+2 252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 442-520 (140.3 - 165%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Valiant Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 266-314 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252 SpA Iron Valiant Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 356-420 (94.1 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 202-238 (69.6 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Trust the process
Kingambit Jr. Run eviolite, black glasses, lefties, LO, idek. You're less bulky w/o evio sure, but with a bit of spikes your suckers are killing both of those hooligans as well as gambit can.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 118-140 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 73-87 (21.8 - 26%) -- 3.7% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 312-368 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 312-368 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 89-105 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 59-70 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 73-87 (21.8 - 26%) -- 3.7% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 312-368 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 312-368 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 89-105 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 59-70 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
I really hope you guys didn't forget this funky guy over here. Suuuure, he dies to dengo, but remember. He's a water type. Rock type? Never heard of it. Anywho, water garg walls dengo to high heavens, fairy garg walls pult, really just your choice. Also salt cure doing 25 to dengo a turn is mad useful. Cure + eq pretty much just guarantees it teras in response, swaps out, or dies.
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Purifying Salt Garganacl: 66-78 (16.3 - 19.3%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 97-115 (24 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tera Water Garganacl Salt Cure vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 23-27 (7.3 - 8.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Salt Cure
0 Atk Tera Water Garganacl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 150-178 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Salt Cure
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 259-306 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
^^Now this one hurts, but if you immediately recover you'll be fineeeeee.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Purifying Salt Tera Water Garganacl: 81-96 (20 - 23.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 97-115 (24 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tera Water Garganacl Salt Cure vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 23-27 (7.3 - 8.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Salt Cure
0 Atk Tera Water Garganacl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 150-178 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Salt Cure
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 259-306 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
^^Now this one hurts, but if you immediately recover you'll be fineeeeee.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Purifying Salt Tera Water Garganacl: 81-96 (20 - 23.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
I'm spending too much time describing all this, so I'm just going to shoot things that I believe in theory can do well at checking those two.
Gen 8 sp.def set real!!!!!111 (ok you prolly die to pult but for dengo just u turn incase it's balloon then eq it to death, 301 speed to outspeed tusk and you're fine.)
Runs AV in Ubers, simply run AV/a bit of sp.def, you're beating dengo as well as usual.
Sp.def corv
It's a bird, click bb against pult for damage. U turn on dengo.
Less overall bulky than ting, but still a 100/135 dark type with a method to heal itself (leech seed/giga drain), also his u turn weakness isn't that bad.
0- Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 160-192 (42.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sp.def tran walls dengo. No fblast? no win. You take pult's sballs well enough for you to swap in, and dracos just bounce off.
Yep, the sea urchin is back baby. 50/142 can't go wrong when you have regenerator. Don't need to make this one long since you barely touch dengo, but pult just gets tox stalled/regen pp drained. For dengo, run the AV set, click infestation, and then spam surf.
Ok this is moreso an offensive check, cause it deletes pult, but doesn't come in very well. It kills dengo with ep after a cm/tera/some solid chip.
Read this a bit up somewhere in this thread, and once again, regenerate all the damage off. Stomping Tantrum/Foul play for dengo, spore screws pult and gives you momentum.
132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 276-326 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
132 SpA Iron Moth Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 214-254 (67.5 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 246-289 (81.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Salt Cure
Offensive check
132 SpA Iron Moth Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 214-254 (67.5 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 246-289 (81.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Salt Cure
Offensive check
Ok hear me out on this one, dengo doesn't like you at all. Pult devours you with draco though.
Same as moon. Although, you must avoid sball over MiR. Just remember that you still have sucker.
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 270-318 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Take this in any manner you'd like.
Stab knock + sucker.
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 97-115 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 10.5% chance to 3HKO
Do as you will.
Roost off the draco, wisp the pult, then spam hurricane. Dengo dies to two flames.
Use them as setup.
Muk-alola.
Dark pulse gaming
Wisp/twave the pult to neuter it, click volt/hydro on dengo, if it's low then go for gold.
Earthquake + Draco. Run av.
uhhhh idk if gastrodon counts, but idec at this point. I've listed basically a third of OU and a fifth of UU.
With this, I believe I've concluded that the ghosts aren't going to start decimating the tier the instant gambit goes. If gambit gets banned, and then they SOMEHOW do get out of hand, I'll PayPal a random user here 5$. Well with that sorted, I'd like to state that yes, due to tera, half of these prolly aren't consistent checks. But if you take that into account, you need to realize that the big blade pokemon also is a prime tera abuser, which leads us into our next argument.
2 - Kingambit has multiple checks, and it can't run every set and every tera to beat them.
The two most common gambit checks are tusk and valiant. Both of them immediately lose the instant gambit turns into a bird/fairy. Val dies to iron head no matter what, tusk can live for a while longer, but assume you make the wrong guess.
Let's assume we're starting this encounter with you swapping into gambit who just pulled off an SD
Option 1: You bulk up and it hits you with the:
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 204-240 (47 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
Option 2: You click headlong, assuming tera preview is here and all hoping for a kill, only to be met with:
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 210-247 (61.5 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Option 3: Tera flying, you click stone edge since you have it for some reason:
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Option 4: You have Dondozo:
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 135-159 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 78-93 (22.8 - 27.2%) -- 49.2% chance to 4HKO
Option 5: You have Zamazenta:
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 210-247 (54.1 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 111-132 (32.5 - 38.7%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
Option 6: You have gambit
Well then uh, if it burned tera hooray. If it hasn't, you prolly die else you got low kick.
Half the things that check gambit in the tier... well, just lose to the common sd + sucker + iron head + kowtow variant. Tera blast fairy over iron heads works to simply delete Zamazenta/tusk even more efficiently than before, without giving the opponent a shadow of a doubt on how to fight back. It's pretty bad when the best check to something is well, himself. Now you could argue "This is unfair! Why does gambit start the matchup with a boost and we have nothing, of course he'd win" Then you realize most of the time gambit is never directly swapping into these mons, and if so, he's immediately dropping a tera a boosting, basically starting the same MU, but you're at 70%~ over 100. Now on the other hand, if gambit swaps into something like gking while you press fsight/sludge bomb, you know for a fact he's getting the SD up on the turn you swap out. Basically leading to this scenario either ways. Gambit usually will just try to do that until it can pull it off and win, or the stacks are way too against it so it has to play like a..... normal... mon.
That aside, let's talk about how most teams have a valiant/tusk/bozo as a gambit stopgap, then the rest of the team is made to be neutral/resistant to it's stabs. Anyone who's teambuilt has probably had a instance where they had to remind themselves to add wisp/trick/twave something on a gambit weak mon, so that at the very minimum, it can annoy gambit to where the switch isn't the freest SD known to man.
Anyways, I've been procrastinating this post for several hours now I think I'll just move onto point 3, er actually, let me address smth in a quick "part 2.5"
2.5 - Broken checks Broken
This is pretty much a mix of the first two parts, so to keep it simple, I'm personally lead to believe that gen 5 and 7 aren't the greatest of examples you want when it comes to having a "balanced" metagame. Unfortunately, I wasn't into comp back when those tiers where the main meta, so most of what I say about those two come from word of mouth. Supposedly, it's not great to have the metagame centered around one thing checking half of the "broken" meta (gen 7 mage). Also, it's not like gambit is holding the tier, tusk is holding the tier together from gambit and hazards becoming overcentralizing, and while he's had help for hazards and have made them manageable, gambit is well, gambit.
3 - Gambit is broken due to tera, it in itself is fine.
Well we can't get rid of tera for now, so we will have to tier in a manner that adds tera to this guys arsenal. Last time we tiered something that was broken cause the right tera absolutely decimated your team, it resulted in a controversial QB. Even if
had stayed, it probably wouldn't directly help against gambit cause... well... How do I put it?252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 80 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 241-285 (72.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 276-325 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Lum berry also exists.
Before someone comes at me, I know you can argue for any mon being broken cause of tera in itself. I'm well aware tera is broken, and would probably vote ban if it weren't for the fact that i'd probably procrastinate that suspect as I am doing this one. That aside, when tiering with tera, you need to be aware that there's levels of broken. To put them in a most simple manner, you could tier it as the following:
Inconvenience > Annoyance > Threat > Broken > Volcarona > Regieleki > Chi-Pao
Personally I'd rate anything on a volcarona level (in a tera meta) as something we need to ban, and that's perfectly where kingambit sits.
For quick references:
Inconvenience: Something you take more than expected to, but still have the game in hand.
Annoyance: Can get a kill and heavily chip smth, but stops there.
Threat: It's well... a problem. Can get 2-3 kills, enough to decimate a core or such.
Broken: Usually where valiant/bax sit at. Once they start rolling there's no coming back from this one.
Volcarona: The right tera and a single free turn ends the game. Unlike valiant which can be defensively tera'd out of, there's nothing stopping this mf.
Regieleki: I'm such a good tera abuser that more often that not, you can know my exact tera and i'll still have you running circles to stop me.
Chi-Pao: I am broken, tera just makes it painfully obvious.
Now as to why I think gambit is in the volcarona tier of tera broken would be as the following:
- Tera dark BG is a absolute nuclear bobm of an attacker, who unless you're tusk/valiant you're not living any +2 attacks. Max defense bozo dies in two hits to 5 fallen BG tera dark.
- Tera fairy lets it live all the ccs, bpresses, eqs and flamethrowers sent it's way, then all you can do is watch as your HP is deleted.
- Flying does the same, but flying gives you an outright immunity over a ground neutrality. Very useful for clowning upon any tusks/landos who dare make the decision of not taking any method of hitting bird gambit.
Now all this would be fine if it weren't for the fact that it's 100/120/85 bulk is far more than just "passable", and a tera blast fairy/flying from either is capable of just rendering zam/tusk completely helpless
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Tera Blast vs. +3 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 146-174 (37.6 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
calc for reference
Till tera gets banned, this mf is banworthy.
Ok now without a doubt, the final point:
4 - Skill issue bro just don't let your checks get whittled, gambit's a end game mon and you still have tera zzzzz...
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 277-326 (95.8 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 304-358 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Guaranteed sucker range--Any non STAB tera lives whatever tusk throws at it)
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Great Tusk: 237-279 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Any non STAB tera rags on this tusk set)
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Dondozo: 135-160 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Any extra chip and a single flinch and you pretty much win
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord burned 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 169-199 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
If we're assuming Lum berry/tera fire, then
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 339-399 (88.5 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 382-451 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 317-373 (98.7 - 116.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 291-343 (99.3 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord burned 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 334-393 (93.5 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 267-315 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 379-447 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 367-433 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 318-375 (96.3 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 250-295 (87.7 - 103.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Or
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 258-304 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. +2 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 186-222 (49 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Flying Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 372-444 (98.1 - 117.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Run tera blast flying no balls.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 304-358 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Guaranteed sucker range--Any non STAB tera lives whatever tusk throws at it)
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Great Tusk: 237-279 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Any non STAB tera rags on this tusk set)
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Dondozo: 135-160 (26.7 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Any extra chip and a single flinch and you pretty much win
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord burned 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 169-199 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
If we're assuming Lum berry/tera fire, then
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 339-399 (88.5 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 382-451 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 317-373 (98.7 - 116.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 291-343 (99.3 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord burned 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 334-393 (93.5 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 267-315 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 379-447 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 367-433 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 318-375 (96.3 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 250-295 (87.7 - 103.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Or
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 258-304 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. +2 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 186-222 (49 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Flying Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 372-444 (98.1 - 117.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Run tera blast flying no balls.
Dawg what am I supposed to do when half the tier's checks are killed by +2 3 fallen tera dark black glasses 252+ kingambit sucker punch
Well, this is this, and that's that. So what's the point of all this?
Send out your gambits earlier and force the damage on the checks themselves. By the time you become a interdimensional juggernaut (5 fallen)most of the opposing team should be battered to where sucker can pick half of it.
Now for the other gambit counterplay...
Trick - Swap out on the trick.
Will-o-wisp - Tera fire/Lum/Dodge/Swap
Zapdos (Yes zapdos as an entity, that mon is pure bullshit) - Pray you OHKO and don't get parahaxed.
Encore - Simply attack them before they try using valiant to encore bullshit, or swap out before.
Substitute - Click kowtow/iron head/tera blast and hooray they've lost 25% for absolutely nothing!
In conclusion....
I am not a fan of kingambit. Between it's annoyingly good bulk, stupidly painful base 135 attacks, supreme overlord giving him anything from a free black glasses, life orb or up to a free choice band. On top of all of those, the Dark/Steel type is quite excellent, giving him two immunities, nine resists, 5 types it's neutral to, 2 weaknesses, and 1 quad weakness. With this gen's mechanic, you can flip that weakness spread with the simple click of a button. I am not a fan of gambito, and I personally thinnk it poses far too much a strain on teambuilding and average day to day gameplay for it to be healthy for this tier.
For all the "I ain't reading allat" people out there, here's a TL:DR:
1 - The things gambit checks can be checked by the rest of the tier, it is not 100% required to prevent the third impact.
2 - Gambit can beat literally every check you throw at it, and pretty much every set has near the same level of consistency at beating said checks.
3 - In a tera meta, you have to tier with how tera affects the mon. Gambit's just stupid to play against with tera in mind, similar to volcarona, as you always have to live in fear it has the set, tera, and team support to 1v6 and win.
4 - +2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 329-388 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
With all that said, my verdict on what should happen to gambit is the following.
Council? Crush his skull, thank you.
(Ban)
You won't see good scores for either of them should nothing change after this suspect test. In fact, I believe if Kingambit doesn't get banned that the scores will be even lower for the next survey.
Unless Tera somehow winds up with a full ban, I wouldn't really expect Gen 9's scores to ever look particularly normal. Protest voting extremely low on both fun & competitive, then pointing out how low they are might not be an effective tactic, but it's the exact right kind of slacktivism to be done alongside requests for bans or suspects.
For my own 2C, and to remain at least slightly on topic, there's a wonderful game from this weeks WCOP tiebreakers where a Clodsire literally walls a a NP Gholdengo to death. It's brutal how one-sided that matchup is. And, as to Dragapult? It might eventually require a suspect at point, but if it does, it'd hardly be the first time a pseudo-legendary was on the chopping block.
I'm really not sure why we're pretending that one would be unprecedented.
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OR AFTER. Tera is, as I've said before, CHAOTIC NEUTRAL, just like meat. It has lots of amazing properties and lots of dangerous implicances, and unlike other mechanics, it's quite flexible in terms of restrictions.
I see so many anti-banners in this thread saying that the tier will fall apart if Kingambit is banned even though players have been told not to vote based on broken checks broken. Given how this group seems to be the majority, I doubt Kingambit will be banned, and we'll continue to have a metagame that is considered neither fun nor competitive for the foreseeable future.
I want action on Tera, but I'd settle with action on Kingambit, which is ever so less likely to happen as time goes by.
I want action on Tera, but I'd settle with action on Kingambit, which is ever so less likely to happen as time goes by.
I feel like a lot of people are missing the point of the suspect test. This is not a multiple choice. You should not be voting against a Kingambit ban because you think that it's the fault of Supreme Overlord, or it's tera's fault. Whether or not you think something else should have been suspected is irrelevant. This is the test you have in front of you right now. This is a simple yes no answer - is Kingambit too strong for the current iteration of OU. Regardless of why it's too good for OU, if the answer is yes then you should vote yes. If the answer is no you should vote no. We can visit Tera or Supreme Overlord regardless of if Kingambit is banned or not later down the road. The result of this test don't affect future action at all.
Actually if you want Tera banned, you should be voting everything possible off the island just to prove how ridiculous the steps required to keep Tera in OU are going to be, then be pleasantly surprised if it turns out the problem was the mons and not Tera. These people saying 'I don't want Kingambit banned because I'm protesting it not being Tera' is insane to me. It's not like we're not probably going to revert Kingambit/Volc/Espratha/Lele bans in case of a Tera ban anyways because these mons are being banned on the back of Tera. The best evidence you could ever give for a Tera ban is if Tera results in having a 'garbage in ubers, too strong for OU' list so large we can unironically start a OUBL tier. Conversely the best evidence for keeping Tera is if we ban enough mons that the tier stabilizes.
I really think I just talked myself in supporting a ban because we need progress somewhere, and a no-ban results in us running in circles. I don't really care about Kingambit as a mon, but something needs to change.
Actually if you want Tera banned, you should be voting everything possible off the island just to prove how ridiculous the steps required to keep Tera in OU are going to be, then be pleasantly surprised if it turns out the problem was the mons and not Tera. These people saying 'I don't want Kingambit banned because I'm protesting it not being Tera' is insane to me. It's not like we're not probably going to revert Kingambit/Volc/Espratha/Lele bans in case of a Tera ban anyways because these mons are being banned on the back of Tera. The best evidence you could ever give for a Tera ban is if Tera results in having a 'garbage in ubers, too strong for OU' list so large we can unironically start a OUBL tier. Conversely the best evidence for keeping Tera is if we ban enough mons that the tier stabilizes.
I really think I just talked myself in supporting a ban because we need progress somewhere, and a no-ban results in us running in circles. I don't really care about Kingambit as a mon, but something needs to change.
NGL, I thought Urshifu was healthy for that very reason lmao.
Its QB was a mistake (should have been suspect tested)
Fax, something can provide good value to a meta, but still be broken lol.
Eleki kept almost the entire meta in check, including urshifu, volcarona, mag, etc
Kingambit is one of the most obnoxious pokemon to ever remain in OU for an extended duration and rivals the likes of Gen 6 Aegislash and Gen 8 Dracovish in how much it warps the meta. No shit the tier is adapting to something that has 46% usage despite the fact that you know pretty much exactly what set it's running anyway. Every time the opposing player loads a gambit you know that every move you make has to be in the context of beating kingambit endgame; which is obviously true for most top tier threats (eg keep balloon intact on dengo for bax) but is true to a ludicrous extent for gambit (eg your team needs two solid checks and at least one of them needs to be completely healthy for endgame, maybe even both if they haven't burned their tera).
I don't care that Encore and Sub are good counter-play options when the mere existence of kingambit invalidates most low tier pokemon, is incredibly centralizing in the builder, is incredibly centralizing in the match itself (see previous sentence), allows players to bail themselves out of poorly played games due to crazy counter-sweeps, causes 50-50 sucker punch mindgames, and very often involves mirror matches (a sign that something is incredibly unhealthy). Something like Tusk "holds the meta together" because we have few hazard removal options, it has additional utility (electric immunity, knock off, bulk up) and it checks fuckface. Gambit does not "hold the meta together" (a good amount dengo run t-wave/tera blast fairy/focus blast at this point and most pult have either WoW or OHKO w/ specs fire move) and the reason it is almost "mandatory" is because why not run something that forces your opponent to keep both their checks at >70% health otherwise they auto-lose endgame while also functioning as a revenge killer, wall breaker, having reasonable defensive utility, answering rain / sun / trick room / even stall, and is also a blanket check for offensive mons that don't resist dark?? It's undeniable the meta is completely warped around gambit and time for it to go.
I don't care that Encore and Sub are good counter-play options when the mere existence of kingambit invalidates most low tier pokemon, is incredibly centralizing in the builder, is incredibly centralizing in the match itself (see previous sentence), allows players to bail themselves out of poorly played games due to crazy counter-sweeps, causes 50-50 sucker punch mindgames, and very often involves mirror matches (a sign that something is incredibly unhealthy). Something like Tusk "holds the meta together" because we have few hazard removal options, it has additional utility (electric immunity, knock off, bulk up) and it checks fuckface. Gambit does not "hold the meta together" (a good amount dengo run t-wave/tera blast fairy/focus blast at this point and most pult have either WoW or OHKO w/ specs fire move) and the reason it is almost "mandatory" is because why not run something that forces your opponent to keep both their checks at >70% health otherwise they auto-lose endgame while also functioning as a revenge killer, wall breaker, having reasonable defensive utility, answering rain / sun / trick room / even stall, and is also a blanket check for offensive mons that don't resist dark?? It's undeniable the meta is completely warped around gambit and time for it to go.
if you ever feel anxious just remember we're getting a dlc in like a month or two with a 80% chance that one of the new pokemon has a move that explodes all your team in 2 turns and returning pokemon on top of it. the modern ou metas are fleeting and while that doesnt mean people should be complacent and just wait the next dlc drop, it does make a lot of decisions' results less permanent
One of the most obnoxious? Definitely.
Invalidates low tier mons? Absolutely.
Get out of jail free card? 100%.
Mirror match late game? More often than not.
Meta warping? Undoubtedly.
But is it broken?
You've admitted in your own post that Encore and Sub are good counterplay- broken mons don't have good counterplay.
When we say "holds the tier together" we mean it stops a lot of things from making the meta worse.
I won't elaborate on that as it shouldn't technically be a factor, but imagine Choice Band/Specs Pult, Cress, Rain w/o Gambit.
If this mon goes, then many predict several more suspects to follow.
Let's go back to the main concerns.
Meta warping does not mean broken.
There have been gens where mons run HP Ice literally just for Chomp.
There have been gens where mons run HP Ground literally just for Tran.
A meta will always have top mons, A+ or S tiers that define the gen, and you can call this warping if you want but that's just mons.
Gambit stops a lot of my low tier meme teams, I would love to see it go, but I'm not voting ban on a mon cuz it's obnoxious, or invalidates low tier mons, or warps the meta, because that can be said about dozens of mons across the years and across different formats.
Gambit is not Pao, or Espa, Flutter or Bundle. Several users have outlined consistent counterplay that broken mons don't have.
Just like Melmetal last gen, Gambit is bulky af, obnoxious, wildly strong, has few safe switch ins, needs dedicated answers, and sometimes takes 2-3 mons to take it out- but like Mel, Gambit is slow, wants more moves than it can have, has consistent answers and teams prepare for it.
Gambit is simply an S tier mon like Pult, Weavile, Mel, Lando and Tran are in gen 8. All those mons are obnoxious, invalidate lower tier mons, bail players out even if they make some bad plays, are common enough to have mirror matches/speed ties and warp the meta. Gambit may feel more unfair to you, but it's really no different than finding a Specs Draco switch in, or a CB Mel switch in, or getting swept by a Weavile late game.
I just want to clarify something: the metagame is going to largely “reset” like it did with HOME when DLC drops, meaning a potential Kingambit ban and any following bans are subject to reevaluation.
We are not going to suddenly drain the entire generation on some chain reaction and theorizing about that is not worth anyone’s time.
I think any logic that looks beyond the scope of this test along and into the future is misguided; this suspect test should be solely about Kingambit being broken or not right now. And I’m not saying people who want to keep it are wrong as there are plenty of good points, but let’s not make this more than what it is.
not to mention scald is likely coming back
So a threatening Pokémon is using Tera Blast to nuke its only checks? Like many other banned threats have? Hmmm maybe something should be done about that move that's been problematic on a dozen Pokémon
- Correction, ON 3 pokémon (Regieleki, Espathra and Volcarona), the rest just used the bare minimum functionality of Tera OR were just OP.
- Without Tera Blast Kingambit would still be a problem because it still beats 3 of its 4 checks on a 1v1 by changing its type to Fairy, it just becomes a 2HKO instead of OHKO.
- You don't need Tera Blast fairy since Zen Headbutt would do the same in this scenario. People is using Fairy just because is a much better type.
- Please let your tera discussions to the tera discussion thread. Because we're not professor X we don't know what'll be the result of that suspect test, therefore we cannot Act as if Tera is going to get tera open (Still ban), tera blast ban (Still ban), both (Maybe worth keeping), nothing (BAN) or a full ban (Keep the king).
.I definitely prefer toxapex using toxic + infestation thank you. It has actual reliable counterplay, is still good and is more in-character for Pex.
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Easy balancing to Kingambit but considered complex ban. Kingambit must run Pressure ability. It will still be an insane mon but will balance it big time. We could run an argument for just not having Supreme Overlord but I think if it was just Pressure it would be cool. People might try to run Eviolite Defiant Bisharp but who knows. Still knocks down Kingambit to a good power level and less reverse 6-0.
Nah that’s like saying "Lets unban kyogre but ban it from using water moves and Tera blast"
Genius, and we can ban Zacian from using all moves excwpt swords Dance, then we can use it in PU
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