Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - King's Dead

[Finchinator]

Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Kingambit!

Upon the release of generation IX and the launch of the Terastal phenomenon, the humanoid Pokemon, Kingambit, became one of the new faces of Smogon's flagship format, SV OU. While many point at Great Tusk, another evolution line revival, for being far-and-away the most common Pokemon, Iron Valiant, the posterchild of Booster Energy sweeps, or Garganacl, pesky soldier of Big Stall™, Kingambit has been a metagame staple since the beginning alongside these Pokemon. The samurai wielding Dark-Steel type was a massive upgrade in combat from underwhelming Bisharp; it gained access to Supreme Overlord, making Kingambit stronger as its teammates faint, and a new signature move Kowtow Cleave, to make up for the loss of Knock Off. On top of this, improvement in stats served it well, especially when it comes to having more serviceable bulk.

Kingambit has paired superb physically offensive strength with a practical movepool including Swords Dance, priority, and sufficient coverage to become one of the best attackers in the format. It has grouped above average natural bulk with a good natural defensive typing and the option to Terastallize out of certain worrisome match-ups to become challenging to take out. Above all else, Kingambit's offensive firepower coupled with its practical defensive profile have provided it with a stronghold on many late games thanks to its ability Supreme Overlord and ability to circumvent perceived counterplay.

With this in mind, there is still counterplay that exists both universally and depending upon what Tera type it may have, making this suspect an intriguing case study into what our players believe is enough to work with in the teambuilder and how problematic specific top abusers of Tera may be. For months, Kingambit projected as one of the healthy presences that helped glue the metagame together thanks to characteristics like a Ghost resistance, access to priority, and its ability to stop otherwise problematic sweepers with timely Terastallization.

However, soon these traits parlayed with its impressive offensive profile led to the playerbase taking a deeper-dive into Kingambit's overall impact on gameplay. More and more games were decided on the sequencing of Kingambit later in games coupled with the preservation of its limited checks, which oftentimes hinge upon it not being certain Tera types. The early metagame sentiment of "let's slap Great Tusk on and we are fine against Kingambit" quickly subsided as Pokemon HOME hit and Kingambit's role later in games became more dynamic and it began frequenting variants such as bulky Tera Fairy or even the classic Tera Flying. Options like Iron Valiant as a revenge killer or Encore stopper, Dondozo with Curse, Will-o-Wisp Cinderace, Zamazenta-Hero, and even classic Rocky Helmet Landorus-Therian are able to play a role in checking Kingambit as well, but very few can be deemed universal checks and many come with a cost or risk to get them in safely.

The standard Kingambit runs a pretty limited set that generally only sees five possible moves; it almost always has Swords Dance and Sucker Punch with Koktow Cleave being very common as well. Both Iron Head and Low Kick present themselves as great secondary options here with one or the other making its way onto the set unless we see Tera Blast, which is quite rare on Kingambit admittedly. Despite this, Kingambit contains multitudes of options within these limited confines. Heavy HP investment can flip a lot of match-ups, making it reliable into Ghost attacks and even capable of withstanding most neutral attacks or weaker Earthquakes comfortably. Speed investment helps a lot with opposing Kingambit as well as Skeledirge and Corviknight; this variant also often runs Air Balloon to help with opposing Ground types and Baxcalibur. Tera type flips the script in many possible ways, and this is broken down in the HIDE tags below.

Tera type match-up dynamic of Kingambit

• Tera Fairy is great as it flips the 4x Fighting weakness, improving the match-up with , , :Zamazenta-Hero:, and , while also neutralizing Earthquake from , , and .
• Tera Flying is the classic option as it gives you the same Fighting resist for , , :Zamazenta-Hero:, and so on while giving you an outright immunity to Earthquake from , , :Baxcalbibur:, and . The main gripes are that it leaves you weak to Stealth Rock and susceptible to certain offensive types like Electric from Zapdos.
• Tera Dark is not going to improve you defensively as much, but it still helps neutralize Ground for and match-ups and limit the Fighting weakness to 2x to assure you survive Sacred Sword from . However, the big gain is the sheer strength as suddenly you may be able to muscle past over time, take out at +2 regardless of the game setting, get a boosted Sucker Punch to OHKO a moderately healthy , and so on.
• Tera Fire can make Will-o-Wisp , , , and into fodder while neutralizing virtually all unboosted and lacking Tera Ground.
• You can expand to Tera Ghost for things like Fighting immunity or other rare options, but I think the point is made.

Overall, Kingambit has been one of the staples of our metagame and many people have seen it as containable throughout the generation. However, it recently has taken up a more dynamic role, focusing on cleaning later in games and making the most of Tera helping flip certain match-ups for it. This surge as a sweeper coupled with its ability to circumvent many forms of revenge killing has made Kingambit a potential tiering topic, which recent survey results attested to. While there are still clear ways to beat Kingambit, the purpose of this test will be to determine if our playerbase deems them sufficient in number and consistency to keep Kingambit in the tier or if it is to overbearing in either the teambuilder or battle to remain OU.

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test!!! The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUZD. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUZD Finch.
• NEW NEW NEW You may use your OLT alt for the suspect test like it is an OUZD ladder alt. HOWEVER, you must not reset your total battles at any point in time on it, you must follow all suspect and OLT rules while participating, and you must report your reqs immediately upon qualifying in the voter identification thread. We reserved the right to deny voting requirements to anyone we feel violates the rules of OLT, this suspect, or Smogon/PS in any regard. NEW NEW NEW
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The suspect being tested, Kingambit, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will go on for roughly two weeks, lasting until August 9th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. You are not allowed to post about other potential suspects or bans. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Kingambit vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
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  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging Kris and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

 

[Finchinator]

In partnership with the Official Ladder tournemt's first cycle here, you may ladder with the tag LT101LK. You must follow all of their rules in their sign-up thread and sign-up there as well.

 

[Finchinator]

This thread is locked for 24 hours for people to collect their thoughts.

 

[Finchinator]

gogogo

 

[1LDK]

Okay so, I think everybody and their mother has now complained about the song, so let's just put some music for the moment

Okay so the kingambit suspect, so let's get out of the way first, I'm one of the worst players of all time so probably won't get reqs, but I would love to vote DO NOT BAN because this helps chesnaught's viability, but luckily for me, there are arguments to be made, so let's see what we got

1) its variations are a bit, overexaggerated, the general gambit set has always SD, Kowtow and Sucker Punch, most of them take Iron Head out for something else, and only very few people drop kowtow, these moves are generally either low kick, tera blast with tera flying or fairy being the flavors. Moving to the tera, the most common one is flying, which can be used anywhere, but fairy, ghost and fire are common in bulky gambits, while dark is cool on offensive gambits. While this in paper sounds a lot, you need to take into an account that Kingambit´sets look like this

Kingambit @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Lum Berry / Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying / Dark / Fire / Fairy
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe (HP and Speed always varies, max attack always goes and most of the time adamant is the preferred nature, only very few gambits run jolly)
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head / Low Kick / Tera Blast
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch

With this, and some scouting, you can pinpoint the most possible set for the occasion, he has some options, but you can see that is between the laws of manageable

2) the list of mons that have a natural good matchup against kingambit is big, he has so many checks that no set can counter all of them. thus, I have collected all the mons that can do something against kingambit in some sort of fashion


Going Alphabetically:

Bulky sets can burn it, offensive sets Pyro ball it to the ground, it even has low kick, HJK and sucker punch to really fuck the gambit

he is the absolute best kingambit counter nothing comes to it, only tera flying tera blast, and tera steel iron defense, and where is your god now uh? The best Pokémon in the game, god tier S+++, the entire metagame in shambles

Corviknight needs Iron Defense to check gambit, but Iron defense Body press wins against all barring Ghost gambit

The best check for defensive teams, can only be somewhat threatened with 3 supreme overlord boost and that's a big if, Curse donzo just outright laughs at it

Can brawl long term with roost and encore, stalls SP with Extreme Speed, can lose to SD Kowtow or Low kick if careless

loses hard to iron head, but pivots into dark nicely and forces it out with Mystical Fire/Earth Power

doesn't pack recovery, but most gambit moves are contact, therefore, tankchomp will punish it hard, run scarf and attack to be honest

gambit doesn't want to switch into it directly due to salt cure, always loses to Iron head if it is fairy garg, always wins if it is water garg, curse and iron defense helps a lot

Can trick a choice item and focus blast it or tera fighting tera blast, but most of the time kingambit wins the matchup

is the most common kingambit check. It stops early game gambit entirely and stops it forever if the gambit user wasted the tera on other mon. gambit can only beat tusk if he has supreme overlord boost and or sd and tera flying/fairy tera blast, and even the first one can fail if tusk is packing Ice Spinner. And both sets lose to BU tusk

Magma storm, taunt to deny sd and earth power, can lose if +3 Supreme overlord AND +2 from SD

Can naturally tank a lot of hits from kingambit and force him to tera, loses to tera fairy tera blast

varies from set to set, but boosted Moonblast, Close Combat, Destiny Bond, Encore, Thunderbolt, Spirit Break, Aura Sphere, can lose if Valiant can't put good numbers and gets popped by an iron head or an unsuspecting tera blast

Kingambit vs Kingambit matchup is the current equivalent of melee fox or Lando vs Lando, you could be running offensive iron head vs bulky tera fairy, or tera fire low kick vs tera flying offensive, and so on and so forth, the most dangerous ones are when both are fast gambit with low kick, some people have become paranoid to the point of running jolly, which is otherwise a dogshit monetary decision, just for this matchup

Intimidates it and quakeedge will always work against gambit

Some people have run Low Kick on scarf sets for it as a cool trick, its an offensive frail check that can tank dark moves, but anything else kills it

and (for this specific case both are pretty similar) flame body fishing + wow, you can also take a direct approach and flamethrower the bitch

Can either burn it with wow or para with twave, can win if it is physically defensive, specially defensive has it rough

with no tera involved, will always win with CC, with tera involved, can potentially hax kingambit with dire claw

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 364-430 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery bro wtf lmaoo, and tera poison just fucks this btw

scald I mean uh flamethrower I mean uh eruption I mean uh scald scald scald scald

dog, same strategy as tusk

static fishing + heat wave, +3 Supreme overlord AND +2 from SD can do the trick

Some of these mons are the best in the metagame, you will always have at worst 2 checks on a team

3) There's also specific moves that can check it, Encore lock into swords dance or sucker punch will either force him out or pp stall him. You can also use Substitute to eat sucker punch predicts or pp stall them further with a boosting move. Trick ruins it, Wisp neutralizes a good portion of the supreme overlord boost, and even with lum berry, you can just do it again

So to conclude, it is centralizing, but the amount of things you can bring against this thing makes it possible for all team styles to handle it in some form or capacity, and kingambit will ALWAYS lose to something. To finalize this argument and post, I want to really steel man the argument by posting a cute bunny video, look at this baby, she just won a tournament game with kingambit, and kingambit is her favorite mon, you don't wanna make this bunny sad right?

 

[ayevon]

Okay so, I think everybody and their mother has now complained about the song, so let's just put some music for the moment

Okay so the kingambit suspect, so let's get out of the way first, I'm one of the worst players of all time so probably won't get reqs, but I would love to vote DO NOT BAN because this helps chesnaught's viability, but luckily for me, there are arguments to be made, so let's see what we got

1) its variations are a bit, overexaggerated, the general gambit set has always SD, Kowtow and Sucker Punch, most of them take Iron Head out for something else, and only very few people drop kowtow, these moves are generally either low kick, tera blast with tera flying or fairy being the flavors. Moving to the tera, the most common one is flying, which can be used anywhere, but fairy, ghost and fire are common in bulky gambits, while dark is cool on offensive gambits. While this in paper sounds a lot, you need to take into an account that Kingambit´sets look like this

Kingambit @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Lum Berry / Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying / Dark / Fire / Fairy
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe (HP and Speed always varies, max attack always goes and most of the time adamant is the preferred nature, only very few gambits run jolly)
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head / Low Kick / Tera Blast
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch

With this, and some scouting, you can pinpoint the most possible set for the occasion, he has some options, but you can see that is between the laws of manageable

2) the list of mons that have a natural good matchup against kingambit is big, he has so many checks that no set can counter all of them. thus, I have collected all the mons that can do something against kingambit in some sort of fashion


Going Alphabetically:

Bulky sets can burn it, offensive sets Pyro ball it to the ground, it even has low kick, HJK and sucker punch to really fuck the gambit

he is the absolute best kingambit counter nothing comes to it, only tera flying tera blast, and tera steel iron defense, and where is your god now uh? The best Pokémon in the game, god tier S+++, the entire metagame in shambles

Corviknight needs Iron Defense to check gambit, but Iron defense Body press wins against all barring Ghost gambit

The best check for defensive teams, can only be somewhat threatened with 3 supreme overlord boost and that's a big if, Curse donzo just outright laughs at it

Can brawl long term with roost and encore, stalls SP with Extreme Speed, can lose to SD Kowtow or Low kick if careless

loses hard to iron head, but pivots into dark nicely and forces it out with Mystical Fire/Earth Power

doesn't pack recovery, but most gambit moves are contact, therefore, tankchomp will punish it hard, run scarf and attack to be honest

gambit doesn't want to switch into it directly due to salt cure, always loses to Iron head if it is fairy garg, always wins if it is water garg, curse and iron defense helps a lot

Can trick a choice item and focus blast it or tera fighting tera blast, but most of the time kingambit wins the matchup

is the most common kingambit check. It stops early game gambit entirely and stops it forever if the gambit user wasted the tera on other mon. gambit can only beat tusk if he has supreme overlord boost and or sd and tera flying/fairy tera blast, and even the first one can fail if tusk is packing Ice Spinner. And both sets lose to BU tusk

Magma storm, taunt to deny sd and earth power, can lose if +3 Supreme overlord AND +2 from SD

Can naturally tank a lot of hits from kingambit and force him to tera, loses to tera fairy tera blast

varies from set to set, but boosted Moonblast, Close Combat, Destiny Bond, Encore, Thunderbolt, Spirit Break, Aura Sphere, can lose if Valiant can't put good numbers and gets popped by an iron head or an unsuspecting tera blast

Kingambit vs Kingambit matchup is the current equivalent of melee fox or Lando vs Lando, you could be running offensive iron head vs bulky tera fairy, or tera fire low kick vs tera flying offensive, and so on and so forth, the most dangerous ones are when both are fast gambit with low kick, some people have become paranoid to the point of running jolly, which is otherwise a dogshit monetary decision, just for this matchup

Intimidates it and quakeedge will always work against gambit

Some people have run Low Kick on scarf sets for it as a cool trick, its an offensive frail check that can tank dark moves, but anything else kills it

and (for this specific case both are pretty similar) flame body fishing + wow, you can also take a direct approach and flamethrower the bitch

Can either burn it with wow or para with twave, can win if it is physically defensive, specially defensive has it rough

with no tera involved, will always win with CC, with tera involved, can potentially hax kingambit with dire claw

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 364-430 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery bro wtf lmaoo, and tera poison just fucks this btw

scald I mean uh flamethrower I mean uh eruption I mean uh scald scald scald scald

dog, same strategy as tusk

static fishing + heat wave, +3 Supreme overlord AND +2 from SD can do the trick

Some of these mons are the best in the metagame, you will always have at worst 2 checks on a team

3) There's also specific moves that can check it, Encore lock into swords dance or sucker punch will either force him out or pp stall him. You can also use Substitute to eat sucker punch predicts or pp stall them further with a boosting move. Trick ruins it, Wisp neutralizes a good portion of the supreme overlord boost, and even with lum berry, you can just do it again

So to conclude, it is centralizing, but the amount of things you can bring against this thing makes it possible for all team styles to handle it in some form or capacity, and kingambit will ALWAYS lose to something. To finalize this argument and post, I want to really steel man the argument by posting a cute bunny video, look at this baby, she just won a tournament game with kingambit, and kingambit is her favorite mon, you don't wanna make this bunny sad right?

unserious post

 

[awyp]

So I will be voting Do Not Ban

Kingambit is one of the baddest (by bad I mean good) mons in the tier, from an offensive perspective. 135 Base (405) attack is really insane especially when you put Swords Dance and Supreme Overlord in the equation.

This is the power of Kowtow Cleave after 1 mon has died + the boosts from Black Glasses (This obviously doesn't include STAB).

Supreme Overlord Calculation: This Pokemon's moves have their power multiplied by 1+(X*0.1), where X is the total number of times any Pokemon has fainted on the user's side when this Ability became active, and X cannot be greater than 5.

This is the power of Kowtow Cleave after 5 mons have died + the boosts from Black Glasses (Pretty much does more then Giga Impact [Normal Mon included])

These are some of Gambits strongest points, I'll save you from some calcs but on top of that it has fantastic natural bulk with no EV investment HP DEF SPDEF hits 341, 276, 206. It's one of the best Shadow Ball switch-ins which isn't extremely common in the tier. Kingambit is one of the best late game sweepers available in the tier, and if it's the last mon it becomes pretty threatening especially if a tera hasn't been burned. I'm sure a lot of us have been a victim of a Kingambit reverse sweep.

Kingambit is vital in my opinion to keep in the tier because it holds the tier together. If Gambit goes, we'll probably need a bunch of other mons suspected (Mainly Gholdengo and Dragapult). People will argue okay well we'll just ban those mons since we're trying to aim for a more balanced tier. Sure but I don't think Kingambit is broken, I think it's a bit centralizing but not overwhelming. Here's why, it's slow as shit, and can get abused from other mons that don't need to run any speed at all, good example is Great Tusk. You can essentially PP stall sucker punch, you can go ahead and substitute on a predict, you can obviously Encore, even Trick. There's a lot of ways to abuse Kingambit. Tera Fire hasn't been common as it used to be, so assuming it stays that way you can also Wisp it and essentially make it as irrelevant as it could be (for the most part). The most used mon in the tier (Great Tusk), is usually a mandatory switch on Gambit, the only way Gambit has the opportunity to beat it early game is using Tera Blast (Flying, Fairy) which wouldn't be wise to burn early in game. Leftovers are at a 56% usage rates on all Gambits which is more then 1/2 Gambits you'll see on the ladder. It runs Lum 10% of the time and Black Glasses 20% of the time. It gets punished in the tier a lot since all its moves (for the most part) are contact so with Flame Body / Static / Rocky Helmet being quite common in the current metagame it easily pays heavy for attacking on a switch. Dozo eats most attacks Gambit throws at it and Dozo can return the favor with Body Press or cursing up. Zamazenta isn't a counter but can definitely check Gambit and start Iron Defensing up and prepare to Body Press. Iron Valiant probably isn't the safest switch but it 4x resists Sucker Punch / Kowtow Cleave. Kingambit definitely suffers from 4 move syndrome. You feel like you want to run more (like FFS it learns Stealth Rock) but people are always reliant on (Sucker Punch, Low Kick, Iron Head, Cleave, Swords Dance, Tera Blast). Outside of Tera Blast it's not that difficult to prepare for like Valiant could be where it could be running 20 different sets and still be good at doing so.

I think Kingambit is a very good mon, I'm not trying to say otherwise but I think it really helps out the tier more so then it hurts it. I understand opposing points, but I really been thinking about this decision for a while now and I know this was going to be the path that I would lean on. There's a lot of problems with the the tier and I can guarantee it's not Gambit, at least in my opinion.

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

I don't think Kingambit is broken, I think it's a bit centralizing but not overwhelming.

I predominantly share the same sentiment as expressed in this post, and was looking for the right words before I post myself, but I think awyp has hit the nail on the head with this one. I'll leave talking about its checks and counters to others, but I just wanted to highlight this subtle difference that drastically changes how this mon is generally perceived, for it brings a lot of positives to the tier (again covered well by others already, but for me personally, while building, I like the fact that it fills the roles of a ghost check / security against cheese / priority).

Also, I urge everyone who cares about this suspect to get reqs and vote. There's no point in feeling bad about the result later when you yourself could have changed it. I understand that getting reqs is a different ordeal for some, but reach out for help and keep trying !!

 

[Floatstonemafia]

So greater and more passionate minds than me are going to argue about the merits and counterplay and whatnot, but I just wanted to put something I've been thinking about a little bit.

Regardless of the merits of banning Kingambit, one of the effects it has on the format is how same-y it makes a lot of games. Kingambit has one job. It has side gigs checking Ghosts and such, but one job and one job only. And it's extremely good at that job. Almost never misses a day at work. That means in most games involving kingambit (which is 30% of them as of last usage stats), the game usually ends the exact same way - you stepping up to the Sucker Punch Roulette Wheel to find out if Kingambit gets to clean out what's left of your team. Sometimes you get to cheat and roll up with a full hp Iron Valiant and it doesn't matter what the wheel gives you, but games still end too often in the battle against that thing. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but most of the time you play OU, you end up staring across the field at the same SD/Sucker/Kowtow/X set threatening to take out your whole team.

I'm not really advocating either way, to be honest I don't really care, but this is just a general observation on a situation Kingambit creates in the format. Is it an issue? Depends on your personal philosophy. It's easy to argue that this is a bad thing, that it's way too consistent and good at what it does, and mandates that every team have a counter that can survive into the late game to take your chance at the wheel, but it's also equally arguable that it's good for the format to have such a reliable cleaner, and that it increases the skill required in the format to manage your team mid battle such that this situation is manageable when your turn at the wheel comes at last. Even if it's healthy for the format, it's rather exhausting doing the same dance game after game.

 

[A1Gallade]

awyp has compiled my thoughts more excellently than I could have myself, so I will not be writing an essay on my Do Not Ban stance, although I will take this as a chance to say major missed opportunity not naming this thread God save the King. Anyway, as was stated previously if you have a strong opinion on Gambit go out there and get reqs. This is a community decision so if you want to be part of that then the opportunity is there. I'll start on my own climb for reqs tomorrow

 

[Vlarcheops]

Regardless of what People think of my opinion Kingambit shouldn’t be banned:

1. Of your opponent has already set up a sweeper(Dragonite, Azumarill, and etc.), a Kingambit is the only hope to turn the table with sucker punch boosted by its ability
2. It helps a lot against stall. Thanks to its ability when two thirds of your Pokémon are down(worst case scenario) Kingambit can come in clutch with its powerful attacks boosted by SD and Overlord (sure dondozo can be a problem but if it has black glasses on it can defeat Dondozo).
3.WITHOUT terastalization it becomes much easier to deal with. Just hold on of any bulky fighting type pokemon (Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, Zamazenta, etc.)
Extra: Speaking of Zamazenta: its Sets are mostly Iron Defense Body Press so if you ready set up ID 3 times Kingambit is as easy as doing 1+1 to Deal with
4. EVEN if the Kingambit is tera Fire you can try to Burn it( hell trying it would give you an advantage since you can scout its tera or item) or you can just paralyze it using TWave or Zapdos’ static

Ther Are Many People with better arguments, but I just wanted to Open myself

I vote to DO NOT BAN Kingambit

 

[Avira]

3.WITHOUT terastalization it becomes much easier to deal with. Just hold on of any bulky fighting type pokemon (Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, Zamazenta, etc.)

This is a moot point because a Tera suspect is not on the table for many more months. Shouldn't the vote be based on the current meta and not a hypothetical future meta with Tera banned?

 

[Vlarcheops]

This is a moot point because a Tera suspect is not on the table for many more months. Shouldn't the vote be based on the current meta and not a hypothetical future meta with Tera banned?

Fair enough i just wanted to bring some arguments

 

[Excalibuwrath]

Okay so, I think everybody and their mother has now complained about the song, so let's just put some music for the moment

Okay so the kingambit suspect, so let's get out of the way first, I'm one of the worst players of all time so probably won't get reqs, but I would love to vote DO NOT BAN because this helps chesnaught's viability, but luckily for me, there are arguments to be made, so let's see what we got

1) its variations are a bit, overexaggerated, the general gambit set has always SD, Kowtow and Sucker Punch, most of them take Iron Head out for something else, and only very few people drop kowtow, these moves are generally either low kick, tera blast with tera flying or fairy being the flavors. Moving to the tera, the most common one is flying, which can be used anywhere, but fairy, ghost and fire are common in bulky gambits, while dark is cool on offensive gambits. While this in paper sounds a lot, you need to take into an account that Kingambit´sets look like this

Kingambit @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Lum Berry / Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying / Dark / Fire / Fairy
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe (HP and Speed always varies, max attack always goes and most of the time adamant is the preferred nature, only very few gambits run jolly)
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head / Low Kick / Tera Blast
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch

With this, and some scouting, you can pinpoint the most possible set for the occasion, he has some options, but you can see that is between the laws of manageable

2) the list of mons that have a natural good matchup against kingambit is big, he has so many checks that no set can counter all of them. thus, I have collected all the mons that can do something against kingambit in some sort of fashion


Going Alphabetically:

Bulky sets can burn it, offensive sets Pyro ball it to the ground, it even has low kick, HJK and sucker punch to really fuck the gambit

he is the absolute best kingambit counter nothing comes to it, only tera flying tera blast, and tera steel iron defense, and where is your god now uh? The best Pokémon in the game, god tier S+++, the entire metagame in shambles

Corviknight needs Iron Defense to check gambit, but Iron defense Body press wins against all barring Ghost gambit

The best check for defensive teams, can only be somewhat threatened with 3 supreme overlord boost and that's a big if, Curse donzo just outright laughs at it

Can brawl long term with roost and encore, stalls SP with Extreme Speed, can lose to SD Kowtow or Low kick if careless

loses hard to iron head, but pivots into dark nicely and forces it out with Mystical Fire/Earth Power

doesn't pack recovery, but most gambit moves are contact, therefore, tankchomp will punish it hard, run scarf and attack to be honest

gambit doesn't want to switch into it directly due to salt cure, always loses to Iron head if it is fairy garg, always wins if it is water garg, curse and iron defense helps a lot

Can trick a choice item and focus blast it or tera fighting tera blast, but most of the time kingambit wins the matchup

is the most common kingambit check. It stops early game gambit entirely and stops it forever if the gambit user wasted the tera on other mon. gambit can only beat tusk if he has supreme overlord boost and or sd and tera flying/fairy tera blast, and even the first one can fail if tusk is packing Ice Spinner. And both sets lose to BU tusk

Magma storm, taunt to deny sd and earth power, can lose if +3 Supreme overlord AND +2 from SD

Can naturally tank a lot of hits from kingambit and force him to tera, loses to tera fairy tera blast

varies from set to set, but boosted Moonblast, Close Combat, Destiny Bond, Encore, Thunderbolt, Spirit Break, Aura Sphere, can lose if Valiant can't put good numbers and gets popped by an iron head or an unsuspecting tera blast

Kingambit vs Kingambit matchup is the current equivalent of melee fox or Lando vs Lando, you could be running offensive iron head vs bulky tera fairy, or tera fire low kick vs tera flying offensive, and so on and so forth, the most dangerous ones are when both are fast gambit with low kick, some people have become paranoid to the point of running jolly, which is otherwise a dogshit monetary decision, just for this matchup

Intimidates it and quakeedge will always work against gambit

Some people have run Low Kick on scarf sets for it as a cool trick, its an offensive frail check that can tank dark moves, but anything else kills it

and (for this specific case both are pretty similar) flame body fishing + wow, you can also take a direct approach and flamethrower the bitch

Can either burn it with wow or para with twave, can win if it is physically defensive, specially defensive has it rough

with no tera involved, will always win with CC, with tera involved, can potentially hax kingambit with dire claw

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 364-430 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery bro wtf lmaoo, and tera poison just fucks this btw

scald I mean uh flamethrower I mean uh eruption I mean uh scald scald scald scald

dog, same strategy as tusk

static fishing + heat wave, +3 Supreme overlord AND +2 from SD can do the trick

Some of these mons are the best in the metagame, you will always have at worst 2 checks on a team

3) There's also specific moves that can check it, Encore lock into swords dance or sucker punch will either force him out or pp stall him. You can also use Substitute to eat sucker punch predicts or pp stall them further with a boosting move. Trick ruins it, Wisp neutralizes a good portion of the supreme overlord boost, and even with lum berry, you can just do it again

So to conclude, it is centralizing, but the amount of things you can bring against this thing makes it possible for all team styles to handle it in some form or capacity, and kingambit will ALWAYS lose to something. To finalize this argument and post, I want to really steel man the argument by posting a cute bunny video, look at this baby, she just won a tournament game with kingambit, and kingambit is her favorite mon, you don't wanna make this bunny sad right?

This list is a really useful starting point for the discussion, because yeah, this is the Gambit counterplay. The funny thing with this suspect is that Gambit has been doing the same thing for so long now, and with such a prominence in the meta at every point, that we all know the interactions it forces by now. You need to pack multiple levels of counterplay to contain it; I haven't looked at the meta stats, but most non-HO or -stall archetypes end up having Tusk + at least one thing that can take a Sucker and smack it back + maybe something that can burn it. There's a bit of wiggle room with Dozo/BP-Corv/Zama as the other things that can come in on it and force it out more the course of a game, but really, trying to run a balance or a bulky offense without Tusk is probably not advisable in large part because of Kingambit.

And then we all know how you play around this thing, because we've been doing it since the generation came out. You can bring in your Tusk at any time, and the only thing stopping them from just clicking Tera and breaking through with little trouble is the second Gambit check you have that isn't quite weakened enough to fall to Sucker. So that's how the game goes. I'm not going to say that that's how every game goes, but every team in the meta has to prepared for this song-and-dance; I'd argue that the very first thing that every single decent SV team prepares for is how to plan for these interactions. So unlike some of the other suspect discussions we've had in this meta, I feel like there's much less ground to be had in terms of what exactly handles Gambit and what doesn't. There's very little counterplay that the meta hasn't tapped yet, and there's no matchup inexperience anymore. Everyone knows what this thing does, and how to beat it. Obviously you can't beat it all the time, but that's true of everything. So what do we even say?

Well, I'll just argue that this is an incredibly warping presence on the meta. What makes it so different from, like, Booster Val or DD Nite/RM? Well, I think it's the fact that both players know, in every matchup where Gambit steps onto the field, that it can break its first check. Once it has a couple Overlord boosts, it can pick its spot to SD and Tera and it's going to break that Tusk, that Dozo, that Corv, and it doesn't need that much team support to do so, although some hazards and a Knock help. Keeping your checks to your opponents' threats healthy is an essential part of Pokemon, always has been, but for basically everything else in the meta, you really only need to keep one healthy. With Gambit, you need to keep your first check healthy enough to switch in as it SDs, and force progress on it as you die by some combination of forcing the Tera, limiting it to a single boost, or just getting chip. Then, you need your second check healthy enough to take a boosted Sucker (and you better hope your first check kept it to a single SD) and to either kill it or come close. If either of those didn't make enough progress, well, you better hope you have a third check.

Not everyone is going to agree on this point, or whether it's unhealthy. It does feel to me, though, that the experience of going into each battle having specifically prepared for Gambit and knowing that you're going to need to burn through multiple checks is a) one that shapes every battle I play and b) is a pressure unlike any other mon in the meta. And from that, I conclude that Gambit is an unhealthy presence on the meta (even if it is the only splashable thing that stops Specs Pult from clicking Shadow Ball and two-shotting the entire meta). Its comeback potential is so high because the demands to contain it are greater than anything else. Not everyone is going to agree that that makes it unhealthy! I saw a player in the other thread say that they never, ever lose to Gambit. I wouldn't even be surprised if that's a common opinion at top level (which I am not). The mons you need to be sufficiently prepared for it are plentiful enough and splashable on a good range of archetypes. That they have to be deployed in a particular way to contain the Gambit sweep, which I see as extremely centralizing, some people might just see as solid fundamental play. I just don't think so; I think the meta would be healthier if every team didn't have to rely on a physical wall with a Dark resist or Fighting coverage, if every team didn't need to pack a few extra Dark resists in the back and keep them healthy enough to take a +2 Sucker, and could actually deploy their bulky mons early game so they don't get blown up once the Gambit sets up in the endgame.

So yeah, I'll vote ban once I motivate myself to grind to get there.

 

[MegaScizor32]

I dont get the whole “kingambit keeps the tier together” narrative. We have Ghost checks in the tier like Ting-Lu, Gargnacl, Heatran, Clodsire and H-Samurott. Its the only OFFENSIVE ghost check we have in the tier (besides h-samurott but its usually a lead …), creating a more hyper offensive meta. Its a proponent in invalidating other play-styles that aren’t offense. (I am a offense-centric player as well but a variety of play-styles in the meta would be cool.)

I’m aware there is some counterplay to gambit such as wisp, encore, stacking darks, etc., but depending on the item and tera, gambit can counteract these ( lum berry, tera fairy tera blast, tera fire, etc.) Supreme Overlord is too broken. To what extent are we gonna allow an overcentralizing mon like gambit in the tier, which dictates heavy consideration in every game-plan and teambuilder thought process, before we consider it unhealthy.

Kingambit establishes a high level of powercreep, so mons that could be used from lower tiers are invalidated because a mon like gambit just sucker punch kills them if they don't resist or aren't bulky (so much for trying to use DD Tera Fire/Steel Salamence).

All I’m saying is that we should weigh out the options on whether keeping Gambit in the tier is healthy or not. Who knows when we will get the tera suspect test. The tier will not change if gambit isn't banned and if you are happy with how the tier is at the moment go ahead and vote dnb. But if you want progress in the tier I would suggest banning this mon.

 

[June Heat]

I am of the opinion that as long as Tera is in the tier completely unrestricted, which it seems like it will for the foreseeable future, that Kingambit can not exist in the tier alongside it.

Yes, Kingambit pre-Tera has plenty of counterplayer, and no one would argue otherwise. It's just that Tera takes that long laundry list of Pokemon that check/counter Kingambit and shrinks it drastically. Tera Fairy/Flying allows Gambit to make what should be Gambit's best checks in the tier in Great Tusk and Zamazenta, and turns them into set up fodder especially with Tera Blast. Tera Dark allows Gambit to muscle past passive walls like Dozo. Tera Fire, while having fallen out of favor since the Volcarona QB, allows Gambit to eat Will-o-Wisps, and give it a free turn of set up. While these four are the most common/practical Tera's I can think of the magic of Tera means that any Tera type could be used on a good Pokemon like Gambit, and still be effective. Kingambit is honestly the posterchild of everything that is wrong with Tera. Which is why I personally think Gambit should be banned in a OU metagame with Tera.

While Kingambit does provide a healthy role in the metagame being the best offensive check to Ghost types in the tier, and just being a solid overall Bulky Steel type. I don't think this is ample justification to keep it in the tier because it's unhealthy elements, Tera match flipping and Sucker Punch 50/50 games, outwiegh its healthy elements. Maybe if it were the sole check to ghost types we had, but we still have Ting-Lu, Garganacl, Meowscarada, H-Zoroark, Hydreigon, Greninja, A-Muk, Hoopa-U, H-Sammurott, Maushold, Ursaluna, Meloetta, and G-Moltres. That's a decent list imo. In theory the tier should be fine without Gambit, and if it turns out that the likes of Pult and Gholdengo are too much for the tier then maybe they also deserve their own suspect. Broken should not check Broken as they say even if the banning of Broken results in a domino effect.

I really wish a Tera suspect happened first because Kingambit really is just another victim of Tera being a busted mechanic. Though since we're choosing to keep Tera as is we can't just ignore the trouble makers that abuse it. At the end of the day in our Tera metagame Kingambit is a overcentralizing aspect of the meta that abuses Tera to its fullest extent. I am personally Do Ban.

 

[Delibird Heart]

If y'all really hate gambit so much, there are very underexplored potential counter/check mons which have viable niches: Iron Hands, Tauros-Paldea-Blaze/Tauros-Paldea-Aqua, Quaquaval and Chesnaught mainly, along with some other more niche mons like Lucario (who can take advantage of switching in with Justified), Fluffy Houndstone or Avalugg (both versions), Decidueye-Hisui, as well as the already established checks Zama, Tusk, Zapdos, Lando-T (run edgequake if you're scared of tera flying, but really just having an intimidate mon already helps a ton), Iron Valiant or really just any pokemon with access to will-o-wisp or encore (Cinderace, Moltres, Dragapult, Maushold, etc.)

Gambit is slow as shit and as such very vulnerable to offensive counterplay from mons that don't drop to sucker (which there are plenty) or faster status moves such as twave, will-o, encore, taunt, toxic from corrosion Glimmora, heck even feather dance if you're that desperate (learned by Quaquaval which already checks gambit, Decidueye-hisui who also already checks gambit and Staraptor which can stack it with intimidate).

There are a million different ways to adapt your team to better check gambit if you struggle with it (most of which are very underexplored right now) and I feel like y'all are just running teams with 1 tusk, letting it get chipped and then putting on a surprised pikachu face when Gambit inevitably comes for you in the late game.

For now I don't think this mon warrants a ban, when it's pretty clear the meta hasn't adapted as much as it could just yet.

 

[JunkoAJ]

Kingambit is vital in my opinion to keep in the tier because it holds the tier together. If Gambit goes, we'll probably need a bunch of other mons suspected (Mainly Gholdengo and Dragapult). People will argue okay well we'll just ban those mons since we're trying to aim for a more balanced tier. Sure but I don't think Kingambit is broken, I think it's a bit centralizing but not overwhelming.

I think Kingambit is a very good mon, I'm not trying to say otherwise but I think it really helps out the tier more so then it hurts it. I understand opposing points, but I really been thinking about this decision for a while now and I know this was going to be the path that I would lean on. There's a lot of problems with the the tier and I can guarantee it's not Gambit, at least in my opinion.

I'll be voting ban if I do get reqs, simply because especially with Tera, the mon is very hard to play around. But I think this point has come up a lot and I'm not sure how much stock we can put in it.

Is this the best way to think about it? If a mon is too overbearing, even if it keeps other mons in check it has to go. It shouldn't matter that it keeps Ghost types in check because the discussion is whether the mon is too strong to keep in the tier, no?

 

[That_Dwayneee]

I’m so sick of hearing people say “gambit holds the tier together” like we don’t have other ghost checks and like this isn’t the beginning of a gen. We can ban mons if they end up being broken without gambit around. Please get a different argument this one just doesn’t work.

On a less aggressive note, yeah gambit is broken as shit and should get the axe. Volcarona was quickbanned earlier this gen for being able to pick and choose what could and couldn’t check it with its multitude of tera types. Kingambit does the same. It has less immediate game winning potential than volc however still chooses its checks, and rewards the player using it for putting themselves in a bad position thanks to supreme overlord. It is my belief that kingambit is stunting the tiers growth and making it less fun to play and will continue to do so as long as either it or tera exists.

Ban this mf

 

[artificialdeath]

I am not sure where I really stand on Gambit personally. It feels almost reminiscent of Mega Mawile back in the XY days with how straightforward yet powerful it is and how many matches are decided by Sucker Punch mindgames, which are never fun. Unlike Maw, though, there are a lot of relevant mons that match up quite well into the 4-5 moves it pretty much always runs, and as someone else said some of this defensive counterplay has yet to be explored. Tera does create problems here, but I am not so sure that Gambit is much worse than the numerous other powerful setup sweepers that can Tera into something and snowball in the same way. I don't think mods would appreciate this becoming another Tera discussion thread so I won't expand too much on that part, though. Even with Tera it's still more straightforward than things like valiant, it only runs sucker/kowtow/iron head/low kick and occasionally tera blast. It does feel frustrating to see so many games come down to the gambit endgame but something being a prominent mon that you have to prepare for doesn't make it broken. I think i am with awyp here, it's centralizing but not overwhelming, especially compared to other sweepers in the tier, and its removal would probably have an overall negative effect on the tier.

 

[Delibird Heart]

:Zamazenta-Hero:, :Baxcalbibur:,​

wait for this entire fucking time you could get the mini sprites by doing this???? ive been literally fucking cropping them from the big ass spritesheet every single time i need them.... this is a game changer.....

Also so this isn't completely unrelated to the topic at hand I'd like to add that I don't even think Gambit is that important in checking dengo and pult. Gambit does not want to switch in on a potential will-o or flamethrower/fire blast from pult nor does he want to switch into twave or focus blast from gholdengo. Even when assuming you won't get hit by these, if you're not running max hp lefties you will get worn down very easily by draco and make it rain. Which means its mostly an offensive check, threatening to RK after a mon has been killed or switching in on a hard predict only/once a move has already been locked in in the case of versing pult. So I find the whole argument of keeping gambit to keep these in check a little weird, when it's not even doing such a great job at that. More reliable checks exist (spdef moltres, ting-lu, spdef zapdos), so let's not act like Gambit is the only thing keeping these 2 from destroying the tier. Again, I'm not even pro ban, but I think this line of reasoning is flat out wrong.

 

[Weirdhamster]

Personally, I’ll be voting ban on kingambit. A pokémon with that excellent bulk, ability, priority and tera should not belong in OU. Kingambit is nearly impossible to check. Fighting types such as great tusk, zamazenta and chesnaught can all fold to tera fairy and other good defensive pokemon such as corviknight or dondozo are just blown away by tera dark.

Kingambit is really just a broken pokemon. While it does have a mediocre typing, the natural strength and bulk really pushes it over the edge. With access to stab 80 bp priority, which can be further boosted by supreme overlord, tera dark and black glasses paired with its bulk, makes kingambit one of the most toughest pokémon to revenge kill. Common resists such as enamorus can straight up get ohkoed by a late game sucker punch.

Hide

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 291-343 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even the common fighting types in the tier can’t safely handle kingambit as it can often run tera fairy tera blast to specifically beat them.

Hide

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 458-540 (105.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 420-494 (108.2 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 836-986 (289.2 - 341.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Due to kingambit being able to terastalize, offensive checks are also very difficult to use, as kingambit can often tera into fairy, dark, flying or ghost, getting it out of common weaknesses.

Setting up isn’t a problem for it either. A lot of defensive pokémon often just invites kingambit to set up on such as toxapex, hatterene, galarain slowking or amoonguss.

Kingambit feels like it’s just a get out of jail card which people use to try and bail them out in the endgame. If they have a rough matchup, they are essentially banking on having kingambit be able to sweep lategame instead of trying to play around the matchup.

Kingambit has too many sets to be able to reasonably check it, while also preparing for the other mons in the teambuilder. It’s raw power and access to tera further pushes it over the edge making it worthy of a ban.

Offensive calcs

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 248-292 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Baxcalibur: 397-468 (107 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 418-492 (104.7 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 474-558 (122.7 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+1 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 380-448 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 355-418 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 435-513 (128.3 - 151.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 499-588 (129.9 - 153.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[ant4456]

If y'all really hate gambit so much, there are very underexplored potential counter/check mons which have viable niches: Iron Hands, Tauros-Paldea-Blaze/Tauros-Paldea-Aqua, Quaquaval and Chesnaught mainly, along with some other more niche mons like Lucario (who can take advantage of switching in with Justified), Fluffy Houndstone or Avalugg (both versions), Decidueye-Hisui, as well as the already established checks Zama, Tusk, Zapdos, Lando-T (run edgequake if you're scared of tera flying, but really just having an intimidate mon already helps a ton), Iron Valiant or really just any pokemon with access to will-o-wisp or encore (Cinderace, Moltres, Dragapult, Maushold, etc.)

Gambit is slow as shit and as such very vulnerable to offensive counterplay from mons that don't drop to sucker (which there are plenty) or faster status moves such as twave, will-o, encore, taunt, toxic from corrosion Glimmora, heck even feather dance if you're that desperate (learned by Quaquaval which already checks gambit, Decidueye-hisui who also already checks gambit and Staraptor which can stack it with intimidate).

There are a million different ways to adapt your team to better check gambit if you struggle with it (most of which are very underexplored right now) and I feel like y'all are just running teams with 1 tusk, letting it get chipped and then putting on a surprised pikachu face when Gambit inevitably comes for you in the late game.

For now I don't think this mon warrants a ban, when it's pretty clear the meta hasn't adapted as much as it could just yet.

"if you really hate Kingambit so much, run some shitmons alongside several other checks because this single mon in the metagame requires several moveset changes, EV spread changes, and several major checks in the builder on any team"

great point delibird thank you

in case my shitpost didn't make my opinion clear, I think you have to be whack as hell to think the mon is healthy just because you can beat it, maybe even decently. you need to stack so much counterplay to one pokemon and it can often still win in-game with Tera + Overlord + any missplay whatsoever

Great Tusk is a very good Pokemon but if not for Kingambit it wouldn't feel like you're throwing defensively against gambit teams, because frankly there are only a few other physical mons in the tier Tusk even checks in the first place, most of which other Pokemon check
(not knocking Tusk, it's just a fact that sometimes Kingambit put your teambuilding in a hostage situation)

no other Pokemon forces several checks like this, frankly. one slot can check most if not all sets of almost every other Pokemon in the tier, while the same Kingambit set can literally make you run several different Pokemon instead

If I want to use Enamorus but I'm looking wea to Sucker I kinda have to go Iron Valiant instead even if otherwise I prefer the Enam, and if I want to not lose a mon in the midgame defensively if Gambit is ever thrown out, I need a Tusk to take some hits (which are chip for its later attempt to sweep!), and that alone isn't really enough to guarantee your W against Kingambit with several up in the endgame

I'm not saying I often actually lose to Kingambit, but that's mostly because we've had to deal with it for so long that I'm just used to making sure Gambit has like three checks in the builder, and I've even seen high level players with even more checks get sweeped anyways.

 

[June Heat]

If y'all really hate gambit so much, there are very underexplored potential counter/check mons which have viable niches: Iron Hands, Tauros-Paldea-Blaze/Tauros-Paldea-Aqua, Quaquaval and Chesnaught mainly, along with some other more niche mons like Lucario (who can take advantage of switching in with Justified), Fluffy Houndstone or Avalugg (both versions), Decidueye-Hisui, as well as the already established checks Zama, Tusk, Zapdos, Lando-T (run edgequake if you're scared of tera flying, but really just having an intimidate mon already helps a ton), Iron Valiant or really just any pokemon with access to will-o-wisp or encore (Cinderace, Moltres, Dragapult, Maushold, etc.)

Gambit is slow as shit and as such very vulnerable to offensive counterplay from mons that don't drop to sucker (which there are plenty) or faster status moves such as twave, will-o, encore, taunt, toxic from corrosion Glimmora, heck even feather dance if you're that desperate (learned by Quaquaval which already checks gambit, Decidueye-hisui who also already checks gambit and Staraptor which can stack it with intimidate).

There are a million different ways to adapt your team to better check gambit if you struggle with it (most of which are very underexplored right now) and I feel like y'all are just running teams with 1 tusk, letting it get chipped and then putting on a surprised pikachu face when Gambit inevitably comes for you in the late game.

For now I don't think this mon warrants a ban, when it's pretty clear the meta hasn't adapted as much as it could just yet.

I think the problem is not that people haven't adapted, I mean it's been close to a year with Gambit at this point, it's that Tera has the potential to invalidate a lot of that "clever" team building.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands: 524-618 (102.3 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Quaquaval: 392-464 (104.8 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Max bulk just to show how ridiculous Gambit can be, but we already knew that. Also status moves outside of encore aren't even a guaranteed since Gambit could always run Tera Fire, or even Tera Electric to really stick it to Zapdos. The fact is without a form of restricted Tera Gambit can kinda just get away with a lot, too much in fact. You can't just have one dedicated Kingambit check on your team. You need one Gambit check for base Gambit, and then one or two checks for Tera'd Gambit. It just puts too much strain on team building right now imo.

 

[Finchinator]

The premise of tiering hinges on not preserving broken to check broken. If X is broken, but the tier needs X for Y not to be a problem, we should still ban X and then look into Y afterwards.

If Kingambit potentially going worries you about Dragapult or Gholdengo, then we can always address them and/or anything else in the aftermath. That’s how tiering has always worked and we have no reason to deviate from this now.

With this in mind, people are entirely free and valid to think what they want and if they believe Kingambit is not broken regardless of course. I’ll speak more on that later as I haven’t had time to write a formal stance up either way, but that “Kingambit holds the tier together and we must preserve it” narrative is just bad tiering practice.