I’m leaning towards Kingambit being unhealthy for the tier too, but insinuating that Kingambit is the only Pokémon Tusk can switch into without Tera and that its usage is so high solely/primarily due to Kingambit is INCREDIBLY disingenuous.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - King's Dead
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
Tusk would drop a good amount of usage because Lando-T is great competition, and Great Tusk's hazard control is not very good, passable at best. It doesn't check many Pokemon, it doesn't get Spin off reliably against most teams, it's basically just a solidish Pokemon that has options but you mostly have to run it way more just because Gambit.
It's splashable because nothing else checks Gambit and has utility moves. Gambit is a major part of its existence, and you cannot deny that.
Here is a counter-example, last gen Lando-T.
This is the Pokemon most comparable to Tusk in metagame role, but look here. It actually checks most Pokemon in Top 10, and not just one. It can come in on like every single one of these Pokemon and click Knock Off or Toxic or U-Turn, and that's a major part of what made it splashable, it didn't counter throughout a gams a lot of Pokemon, but it checked almost all of them.
Compare this to a Pokemon like Great Tusk with very polarizing stats, whose Utility is good but not insane. It simply doesn't check that many Pokemon in the metagame, the main ones defensively being Sneasler and Kingambit. And yet it's still being thrown on every team, and in my opinion a large part of this is Great Tusk having to; you need a Pokemon that switches into Kingambit in the early or midgame and does at least something.
---
---
Let's revisit the SV Top 10 Usage.
If not for tusk, Lando-T does a much better job at checking literally every single pokemon in the Top 10, at least taking a hit and U-Turning, or clicking an Attack. Or getting hazards.
Great Tusk can get blown back by uninvested Iron Valiant Moonblast, Gholdengo goes 90% to defensive with no boost, Specs or Life Orb with Make It Rain, Samurott-Hisui's STAB is super-effective and it can run Hydro Pump/Surf. Dragapult can blow it back with Shadow Ball, Draco Meteor, even without STABS, Baxcalibur is a Physical Pokemon but Great Tusk needs Tera to check most of its sets, like Swords Dance Icicle Crash. Galarian Slowking can click Future Sight, or just murder it with the rarer Psychic, and do a good chunk with Sludge Bomb. Zapdos with a 301 Speed should never lose even to Offensive Tusk, and hits one attack and Great Tusk dies. Enamorus murders Tusk.
Great Tusk deadass has a pretty mediocre match-up into a lot of the metagame, unless it is one single setup sweeper that is at conveniently around the same usage.
Again, Great Tusk doesn't become a shitmon and is probably Top 20 still without Kingambit, but I think this is overrating its utility. Rapid Spin more or less just makes it a lure to click Knock Off into two Pokemon that live, and then can do a bajillion back. It's telling to me that teams with Rapid Spin Great Tusk still run other forms of hazard removal fairly often, like Bulky Cinderace... which also is one of the most popular Kingambit checks due to faster Wisp.
I also give it praise for forcing those Teras on those Physical Attackers if they want to make progress, which in my opinion is actually a big deal. In this metagame, forcing a Tera can be very very good.
Still, I'd say that without Kingambit, Great Tusk goes to good usage but not this high. It just doesn't do as much as you say in a meta without Kingambit.
Last edited:
I don't really get people saying that it should stay because it stabilizes the tier or whatever. I thought it was some sort of policy that Smogon doesn't do the "broken checks broken, so if King goes and others must follow, oh well. Plenty of folks here stated that keeping tera would most likey result in a lot of bans to keep the mechanic, so this shouldn't be a surprise.
Well, you're very wrong as even when Kingambit usage was outside the Top 10, Great Tusk had over 50% usage, and what was extremely common then was Gholdengo. Great Tusk usage will not decrease in any meaningful way unless Gholdengo is banned, as this is THE mon centralizing the meta around itself. Your take will age very poorly should Kingambit be banned.
Last edited:
Gonna also say that that was a gross underestimation of how good Tusk actually is.
Even if Gambit got banned, Tusk would still be #1 in terms of usage. Tusk fits on literally every playstyle, offense, weather, balance, stall, dread it, run from it, Great Tusk still fits on any team. Its the best rapid spinner in a tier where defog is basically non-existent with insane stats and coverage to run whatever it wants. Nothing else does what Tusk does, Lando-T is mostly special or at least mixed in terms of damage output and can't knock or clear hazards.
Saying Gambit is the reason Tusk has that much usage when its had insane usage at every point this gen regardless of how common Gambit was is just false, especially in a Ghold meta where clearing hazards has never been more important and more difficult to do due to ghosts types being common + Ghost Tera mons being an unexpected spinblock and moves like Ceaseless Edge making hazards even easier to stack.
Even if Gambit got banned, Tusk would still be #1 in terms of usage. Tusk fits on literally every playstyle, offense, weather, balance, stall, dread it, run from it, Great Tusk still fits on any team. Its the best rapid spinner in a tier where defog is basically non-existent with insane stats and coverage to run whatever it wants. Nothing else does what Tusk does, Lando-T is mostly special or at least mixed in terms of damage output and can't knock or clear hazards.
Saying Gambit is the reason Tusk has that much usage when its had insane usage at every point this gen regardless of how common Gambit was is just false, especially in a Ghold meta where clearing hazards has never been more important and more difficult to do due to ghosts types being common + Ghost Tera mons being an unexpected spinblock and moves like Ceaseless Edge making hazards even easier to stack.
Isn’t this kind of side tracking with focusing on how good tusk is or isn’t ?
the reality is that kingambit has immense pressure, without even needing to ever use that ability.
its quite defiant in the face of tusk, the most used Pokémon in OU, and it doesn’t need that ability either..
Soon, it will take its rightful place as supreme overlord of OU, with 50%+ usage, as games are decided by who guessed the coin flips right.
-
forget thinking Kyurem toed the line of Ubers , with its punitive 10% chance to break through checks. We have kingambit, who is at most limited with its 50% to break some checks in some endgame scenarios, and people are still wondering if it’s deserving of Ubers? Lol..
the reality is that kingambit has immense pressure, without even needing to ever use that ability.
its quite defiant in the face of tusk, the most used Pokémon in OU, and it doesn’t need that ability either..
Soon, it will take its rightful place as supreme overlord of OU, with 50%+ usage, as games are decided by who guessed the coin flips right.
-
forget thinking Kyurem toed the line of Ubers , with its punitive 10% chance to break through checks. We have kingambit, who is at most limited with its 50% to break some checks in some endgame scenarios, and people are still wondering if it’s deserving of Ubers? Lol..
As everyone has pointed out, this is a gross simplification of what Tusk provides for the tier. Using SS Lando as an example is just not it. Lando lost Defog, Knock, and Toxic this gen. Tusk has more utility with Spin + Knock. Being the best form of hazard removal next to Cinder.
Also ppl should stop trying to make that overrated physD set work. Run this spread instead.
104HP/172Atk/232Speed Jolly
232 speed to outrun Dengo and 172 Atk to OHKO even 252 HP/252Speed Ghold with EQ. Makes Tusk a much more reliable spinner and a stronger offensive presence overall. Even with just 104 EVs into HP, its still fat asf on the physical side.
The problem is everyone tries running physically defensive only to get outsped by Ghold and miss out on KOing it outright. Balloon Ghold exists but its still threatened by Knock and Spinner will pop the balloon.
“B..But what about Tera Flying??”
Congrats, you don’t have a spinblocker anymore.
Even if Gambit gets banned, Tusk will remain no. 1 in the tier. Also the conversation should be focused more on Gambit rather than Tusk or Ghold.
OBJECTION:
| 2 | Kingambit | 50.15187% | 783893 | 29.316% | 542128 | 25.409% |
Is ALREADY over 50%. At least in high ladder aka over 1825. Those are almost never good signs. When a mon is used this much it one of 3 things.
- The mon is quickban worthy due to how overpowered it is.
- The mon is the only option to do X roles efficiently
- The mon is used as glue to hold up the tier together, or is pretending to be one.
To makes things even worse, here's the data for this pokémon.
| Parameter at OU 1825+ | Differential (July - June) Note for clarity | |
|---|---|---|
Usage rate | 35.07%/50.15% | +15.08% This is the only OU meta in gen 3+ that there's more than 1 mon with over 50% usage. |
% of seeing 0 in a random Gen 9 OU battle | 42.16%/24.85% | -17.32% This translates in 41.07% Less Kingambit-less games in OU |
% of seeing 1|2 in a random Gen 9 OU battle | 45.54%|12.30%/50.00%|25.15% | +4.46|+12.85% The chance of seeing exactly 1 mon of x specie in any PvP of pokémon cannot be higher than 50% |
Viability ceiling | 90/91 | +1 In Both cases Kingambit got the highest note, but in the july it was only shared with 5 mons, 3 of which attract ban discussions ( |
Common items (10+%) | 3/4 | +1 Air baloon is new meta. Also good news, Quick claw kingambit is now almost nonexistant |
Kowtow Cleave|Sucker punch% | 97.199|97.730%/94.827|99.199% | -2.372|+1.431% There's small but relevant increase of Kingambit in 50|50 sucker punches. |
Iron head|Swords dance% | 72.314|90.293%/60.519|97.040% | -11.795|+6.747% This indicates it's becoming more setup-sweep oriented and less around 1v1s. Also there's another decrease in consistency due to less iron heads |
Low kick|Tera Blast & other moves% | 33.530|8.934%/31.967|16.508% | -1.563|+7.574% The chance of tera Blast roughly doubled in the last month. Now tera blast over a STAB is a threat who will happen regularly. This also shows more people building to tera kingambit which showcases overcentralization. |
"Unconventional" EVs and natures (+5%) | 35.103% or lower/49.721% | +14.618% or higher This mon is now more unpredictable EVs than before, which usually happens after a few weeks of a meta shake so it's a natural change. |
Pokémon listed as Checks or Counters with 60+ points (1695+) | 5/5 | 0 This is alarming. I'll explain why in a second |
Conclussion of the comparison between months
- Kingambit is becoming more reliant on 50|50s. Considering that reliance on them is why is there to begin with.
- Kingambit is becoming less predictable. There's now more items, EVs, more case of coverage and more flavors of coverage.
- Kingambit is using using tera more often. While not visible, Tera Blast Kingambit is more popular, and that adds a third layer of problem alongside the one already Kingambit and Tera adds, as well as clear centralization.
- Kingambit still has very few checks. Partially because 1 of them were banned to Ubers (Zamazenta-Crowned), partially because Kingambit teams are better built but also more built to check Kingambit. The new check is Breloom though, aka the shroom who cheeses noobs. The actual 4 checks from start to finish have been Dondozo, Iron Hands, Great tusk and Zamazenta, of which only Dondozo is reliable due to rest.
- Iron Valiant has similar data in terms of checks and counters. Might be solved after tera, but if not it should be the next suspect test.
- Gen 1 and specially 2 are quite umpopular compared to gen 3+ formats. I KNEW I wasn't alone when I said most people don't like formats where slots are predetermined.
- Out of all the OU formats, Gen 7 and 8 are the most popular, one due to being gimmickless and the other for gimmick fans. The older has roughly the same population as Gen 9 UU btw aka definitely able to do suspect tests.
- It's been 8 Months that felt like 3000 years, but finally, THREADS IS UU. Somehow Garchomp is still holding to OU. I guess people really love him and hey, it's not the worst thing you could bring on.
- For both regular and NatDex the most popular fan-made rule is Monotype with over 100K. People really like to roleplay a gym leader/elite 4 apparently. Also, NatDex ubers seems more popular than regular one.
- Liberty cup ya esta muerto... no mas no le han avisado. Only 2.7k players on its first month. For comparison, ZeroUsed, a format who isn't official due to lacking support, has 4 thousands more battles, because let's be real why would you play freedom cup when BSS exists?
PS: Minor edits for a cleaner, more readable post. Also I want to do a second post about the topic today.
Last edited:
tera blast + fairy or flying is extremely common right now.
presumably due to how well it handles 3 of the fighting types that check it best: iron hands, tusk, and zamazenta. None of them can reliably switch in and check it if it’s running +2 terablast.
Yet another reason why the best checks to Kingambit are the Pokémon that force it to come out as early as possible [and take damage] such as dragapult and glowking. it’s not the fighting types that first come to mind.
healthy kingambit, with even mild support, cannot lose in the end game. This is known by most players..
I’d rather face a 50% gambit with a sucker punch resist that hits strongly, than face a 100% gambit with a 100% 252/252+ impish tusk and an intact tera
love the look at hard data btw, this is really showing what a lot of the no ban voters are not willing to confront, this Pokémon is warping the meta much more than it’s helping the meta.
i don’t see the beneficial value any more.. sure it might suppress calm mind cresselia and keep things like toxapex on their toes, but it’s also such a strong Tera threat that people are losing their minds at Tera, rather than the best (ab)users of the mechanic.
Also, Looking at the same data we see why Great Tusk is not banworthy. It showed over dozen of reliable checks like Zamacenta, Walking wake, Iron Valiant, Cresselia, AlomomolA or Iron Mugulis... Oh wait, it was JUgulis. My bad. How could i forget Great tusk is why this thing is in RU?!
Btw, there's also a 2nd mon with roughly the same numbers, if not worse. I guess you know which is by thinking a bit/remembering, but it's indeed Iron Valiant. I propose that after tera and Kingambit we keep a look on Iron Valiant. I love its design because I love the part it's made of, but I'm able to recognize Pheromosa's unhealthy playpatterns easily.
PS: The best AND ONLY reliable check is Dondozo. Dragapult only works on lure sets and is very risky to use.
Last edited:
The fact that Dragapult and Gholdengo are such important pieces at limiting an endgame gambit, arguably moreso than checks like Tusk and Zamazenta, is so crazy to me, that I can't help but repeat it in nearly every post lol.
Weird question, but if this is even possible and it hasn't been asked before: Does anyone have experience regarding Kingambit without Supreme Overlord*? I understand the multiple reasons on why we wouldn't suspect the Supreme Overlord over Kingambit, but I didn't know if people found it bearable without it, or the experience was largely the same and that's just another factor here.
Anyone can give their thoughts on if Supreme Overlord is/isn't a huge issue regarding Kingambit regardless.
I think Gambit is better than Houndstone as a reverse sweep Pokemon because the full package is just so much better than the last respect spamming machine Houndstone often was. However, banning Supreme Overlord should always be off the table, even if more broken are introduced with it as an ability. Objectively, it is worse than Huge Power in every way and while distribution matters, it doesn't sit right with me to ban an objectively worse ability because some Pokemon are broken.
Tiering policy is always if the ability itself isn't broken, but is part of a greater whole(being Kingambit), then the mon is banned itself. If we take away Supreme Overlord, Gambit might be fine, but you could argue the same for sucker punch, or swords dance, or limiting its tera. Councils avoid complex bans because they're not neccessary for the most part, when you can just ban the mon instead and save yourself the hassle of deciding "well if we take away this move and limit it to this level maybe it'll be balanced".
Just watched this battle on showdown:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1915308003
Very creative use of kingambit , that demonstrates the versatility of sets available.
spoiler is below:
kingambit is already the best flying type Pokémon in OU (sorry zapdos, d nite, landorus and enamorous)
it’s also possibly the best fairy type (sorry enamorous, hatterene and azumaril)
but now.. it’s contending for more
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1915308003
Very creative use of kingambit , that demonstrates the versatility of sets available.
spoiler is below:
kingambit uses Tera grass with terrain support to get a 104 BP STAB to break through a standard stall team.
kingambit is already the best flying type Pokémon in OU (sorry zapdos, d nite, landorus and enamorous)
it’s also possibly the best fairy type (sorry enamorous, hatterene and azumaril)
but now.. it’s contending for more
I mean, it is clearly a defining factor of Gambit being as good as it is, not sure overrated is the right thing to say here.
No. Just no. did you not see the my post on the first page? how is something that has 5 allies fainted has the power of Giga Impact overrated with no downsides and beats Unaware mons? Supreme Overlord > Tough Claws 10/10 times
Btw, in that replay the team facing Kingambit is using 2 of the 4 "Smogon approved Kingambit Checks" in Dondozo and Great Tusk, the former is THE hard check. The stall team did got unlucky but still, the fact unlike other mons, having multiple of their checks isn't even guaranteed to work...
I love your perspective Ant, but I don't think this is the take. Tusk switches in to basically all physical damage, gets a spin off, then switches out on the special attacker that comes in to case it out. There is a lot more to the elephant than just its typing shitting down gambits throat.
To avoid steering the conversation away from Gambit, I think there are three things that stand out, its bulk, its attack, and Tera.
The easiest thing to pick apart is the attack on this behemoth. A base 135 is nasty. Now I can't say anything to the damage calcs because the Internet blocks the Calculator. But this thing is a demon once it sets up. Many run Black Glasses for extra damage, but I think that the better item is leftovers because you can capitalize on the bulkiness of the Steel Typing and turn a probable 2 hit KO into a 3HKO. This threat requires teams to invest into more defensive bulk so that it can hope to out live a cleave/iron head/Sucker.
The attack stat is then boosted by Supreme Overload, which doesn't need much to say
Supreme Overlord is the premier ability for Gambit because you basically get a technician boost to all your STAB attacks. Allowing you to easily clean up the end game without having to set up a Swords Dance. Your other options are either Defiant or Pressure, although a case can be made for Defiant, this can be played around by just not dropping your stats (as well as both other abilities showing themselves when Gambit enters the field)
Moving onto its bulk, with 100 Base HP, 120 Def and 85 SpDef. Further complemented by the Steel/Dark Typing this think can easily get in on some of the Psychic or Fairies that are present and get some nice chip off. The one thing this monster is weak to is Fighting, which is a sure fire way for this thing to get set back to the fires of hell it was forged from.
But when typing is the issue, Tera comes in to help patch up the weakness. Like an angel telling Noah to build the ark, GameFreak came down and said Tera Fairy the Samurai. Once the fighting weakness is shed, this thing because virtually unstoppable. Now I won't get into the tera debate because there is another thread for that, but this mon alone can force so many 50/50s that it is a popular reason people want Tera banned.
So overall this thing is a devil that went to paldea. And the only way he doesn't take your soul is to get him out of the tier.
With Landorus coming back with Home, I thought Defiant might be a solid alternative to Supreme Overlord. Lando comes in, you get+1, set up a Swords Dance to be +3, and put immense pressure.
The problem is, Lando isn't rivaling with Great Tusk as I thought it would. #13 in usage with 11.95% (12.79% for 1825+ elo, according to Pikalytics) is not common enough to make Defiant worth it in most games. Even then, if you Swords Dance as Lando comes in, you're essentially still +2 with the Supreme Overlord boost if you have a few fainted allies.
Not to mention, Kingambit still easily wears down Landorus, and Intimidate fails to be a safe check against King. King can tera in a pinch, set up on Lando due to how bulky King is, and get the kill even on bulky variants of Lando.
I feel like Landorus could rise more in usage, but even then, stick with Supreme Overlord. It's far more consistent, and the ability working as a multipier over a stat change is too good to pass up.
Defiant also has the problem of a lack of Defoggers to take advantage of. Gen VI/VII Bisharp could safely switch in on a fair chunk of Defoggers and proceed to wreak a bit of havoc with Knock Off spam. The only Defoggers in the tier right now are Corviknight and Talonflame, and both can very easily body Kingambit on a switch-in (quite literally in Corv's case) unless Tera was already burned.
My argument was more that Tough Claws always gives physical mons a 1.3x booster, whereas Supreme Overlord is only stronger than Tough Claws when you have 1-2 Pokemon left. If Gambit in particular had Tough Claws, it'd be a very scary breaker right from the start of battle.
This is of course, if I'm correct about how Tough Claws works, and it does indeed act just like Supreme Overlord with 3 fainted pokemon right away.
And by overrated, I don't mean that it's not that good as an ability. It is clearly a very good ability. I was trying to say that it wasn't the ability alone that made Gambit good, in the same way that Last Respects alone made Houndstone great, and that the ability itself shouldn't be in the conversation as something that is banworthy.
You did NOT explained why the first part showcased any sort of problem.
... Well, you got me there. I did not do a good job at expressing the points of the pokémon. That's Why I'm doing this comment, to get a better point to my Kingambit one I did yesterday. So let's begin
Part 2: The implicances of 50% use
Long story short, a when a Pokémon is used in more than 22.5% of team, it's something worth keeping in a watchzone. When a mon is used over 30% (More often than not is saw) it is a redflag and needs to be monitored. When the chance is A 50% Like with Kingambit or Great Tusk, THEN you know there's problems, and it is due to some of the 3 factors below:
- The mon is quickban worthy due to how overpowered it is.
- The mon is can has multiple sets. The mon is a a swiss knife and/or has great role compression.
- The mon is used as "glue"... or pretending to be glue for very different reasons
- It has an unique, irreplicable niche and therefore is used to hold up the tier together like glue with its role.
- Is because is so good that not using it becomes opportunity cost, so it disguises as glue.
Let's compare this to Kingambit to see if it's a problem.
- Quickban Worthy. Nah, is not THAT BROKEN. People can be stupid but most people are good at recognizing a quickban-worth pokémon like Chi-Yu, Flutter Mane, Regieleki, Magearna or Palafin.
- Swiss Knife. I can Immediately discard swiss knife because Kingambit has only 1 set: Swords dance + Sucker Punch + 2 other attacks, one of which is a reliable STAB and the other one is either the other STAB or coverage.
- Glue. Again, more ambiguous because said ambiguous role compression could be either glue or fake glue.
"But then Gholdengo/Dragapult/Cresselia would go out of control"
According to many Kingambit is a necessary evil used to hold up against dangerous ghosts, Psychics and Setup sweepers. The latter is easily dismantled by saying Kingambit is the best setup sweeper of OU, but the other two... I admit you got a point. The prime candidates to why this pokémon is necessary are Ghost and Psychic types, which leave us to Dragapult, Gholdengo, Cresselia and Slowking-Galar. Considering the latter is in the same category as Tusk of irreplazable due to role compression, so let's analyze the former 3 to determine if the glue is genuine or a facade to disguise as a worthy King of OU.
So now you know, If you want something to truly beat Gholdengo, just consider a water/dark or robomoth, they'll do better thank Kingambit.
Yeah, the niche doesn't seem to be that useful, SPECIALLY in case of Gholdengo. The only case who feels close to a niche is countering most Dragapult, and doesn't seem to be enough justification considering Garganacl and Iron Valiant are just as effective at checking Dragapult. That only leaves us 1 scenario: 3.2. The mon is pretending to be glue. In reality it is popular because is so good that not using one becomes opportunity cost.
When a pokémon reaches a point where NOT USING ONE is an actual teambuilding cost and does not provide unique niches others could not fulfill... IDK, That sounds banworthy to me.
Thank you for reading (Unless you skipped. That's rude from you
). Now I'll truly begin my lose-streak on the NEW Balanced Hackmons.PS: Wow, BH players are AWFUL at teambuilding.
Last edited:
I don't really want to argue about Kingambit being broken vs not broken. Because in reality, I don't think we have all the information to make an informed decision.
First of all, I think the "we don't want to follow the broken checks broken logic," while true, isn't really a matter of choice in this case. Right now, the tier is in a delicate state as is. And whether we like it or not, the fact is broken does check broken with the way things are. Kingambit provides an instrumental role as one of the few (splashable) dark resists that can keep the ghosts in check. It's been shown in the past that removing a mon can easily result in collateral damage or a mess, like when removing Volcarona, one of the more consistent checks to Iron Valiant, caused it to become even harder to stop. This is currently the state of the tier: an incredibly fucked up balance, whether you or I like it or not.
Yes, if the ghosts become more problematic after Gambit goes, we can look into them next. But before we go down this road, why don't we first settle the matter of Tera. I'm not saying Tera should be banned or not (so don't respond to my post with some speech bitching about how Tera should/shouldn't be banned because the meta would be stale and blah blah blah); but it should be at least suspected and the matter should be settled before we press further with suspecting individual mons. If we, say, keep going down the line of suspecting individual mons, then suspecting tera, and then banning tera, we then have to retest all the individual mons we just banned (Gambit, Volc, etc.) which are arguably only problematic when they have Tera to abuse. The decision making progress here sounds incredibly inefficient and backwards.
I also don't really get why there's so much hesitance with regards to suspecting Tera. The last test was absurdly close and it's clear there's community support for it. If the mechanic is removed, it'd be because of community support and votes, so there's no single person (or council) to blame if it happens. For fuck's sake, just settle the matter before pressing on here.
First of all, I think the "we don't want to follow the broken checks broken logic," while true, isn't really a matter of choice in this case. Right now, the tier is in a delicate state as is. And whether we like it or not, the fact is broken does check broken with the way things are. Kingambit provides an instrumental role as one of the few (splashable) dark resists that can keep the ghosts in check. It's been shown in the past that removing a mon can easily result in collateral damage or a mess, like when removing Volcarona, one of the more consistent checks to Iron Valiant, caused it to become even harder to stop. This is currently the state of the tier: an incredibly fucked up balance, whether you or I like it or not.
Yes, if the ghosts become more problematic after Gambit goes, we can look into them next. But before we go down this road, why don't we first settle the matter of Tera. I'm not saying Tera should be banned or not (so don't respond to my post with some speech bitching about how Tera should/shouldn't be banned because the meta would be stale and blah blah blah); but it should be at least suspected and the matter should be settled before we press further with suspecting individual mons. If we, say, keep going down the line of suspecting individual mons, then suspecting tera, and then banning tera, we then have to retest all the individual mons we just banned (Gambit, Volc, etc.) which are arguably only problematic when they have Tera to abuse. The decision making progress here sounds incredibly inefficient and backwards.
I also don't really get why there's so much hesitance with regards to suspecting Tera. The last test was absurdly close and it's clear there's community support for it. If the mechanic is removed, it'd be because of community support and votes, so there's no single person (or council) to blame if it happens. For fuck's sake, just settle the matter before pressing on here.
- Status