658Greninja
Moderator
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth RockWhat is your opinion on a palafin unban?
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth RockWhat is your opinion on a palafin unban?
People are reacting negatively to what you are saying mostly because it is crystal-clear you prefer a different format over OU and how disrespectful you are to others. Having a different preference is not bad by any means, but it does become an issue when you start using *very* different weights for *very* different metas, while going to other formats' forums to say "hey your format sux" while saying truly outlandish stuff. You did say that Clefable was a bad pick and only OU by usage.long post
It is fine to have odd opinions - hey, lots of cool strategies are born out of different opinions, but do not find it weird when people disapprove when you make it clear you despise the meta you're talking about. Also, you still managed to insult both people who play Clefable and people who like Clefable. I'm neither, but those demographics are very different for sure.DPP is a bad gen overall so anw. gen4 is a p flawed metagame like All gens are (only natdex is real) And I honestly think clefable shouldnt be that good, it is just popular among The fans (people liking bad designs) And I think it's OU in these gens only by usage.
And you may see as much poste for ban and for dnb but let's be honest. Anti-gliscor people are always the same. (cutting to avoid bloating the post)
Do you understand how insulting it is to call "kindergarten" something people are passionate about? There is only so much you can blame on language barrier before it becomes obvious you truly disdain everyone in the conversation. By seeing your behavior in this forum, I know you'll write a long-winded answer with no clear paragraphs so save it because I won't read it, I just had to get this out of my system because the rudeness actually got on my nerves this time.(...natdexstuff)
, you don't understand that your tier is a kindergarten.
Ice is such a bad defensive typing (though Zapdos certainly runs Boots enough) that I feel like Thundurus only gets away with it thanks to its titanic 145 SpA. I've run Tera Ice Sandy Shocks in the past, and while it is strong (Electric/Ice/Ground coverage is nuts, you guys, it's so dumb) I found myself still missing some KOs and then getting smoked by the bad typing.People are reacting negatively to what you are saying mostly because it is crystal-clear you prefer a different format over OU and how disrespectful you are to others. Having a different preference is not bad by any means, but it does become an issue when you start using *very* different weights for *very* different metas, while going to other formats' forums to say "hey your format sux" while saying truly outlandish stuff. You did say that Clefable was a bad pick and only OU by usage.
It is fine to have odd opinions - hey, lots of cool strategies are born out of different opinions, but do not find it weird when people disapprove when you make it clear you despise the meta you're talking about. Also, you still managed to insult both people who play Clefable and people who like Clefable. I'm neither, but those demographics are very different for sure.
It does not help that you hold absolutely no respect for people whose opinion differ from yours.
Do you understand how insulting it is to call "kindergarten" something people are passionate about? There is only so much you can blame on language barrier before it becomes obvious you truly disdain everyone in the conversation. By seeing your behavior in this forum, I know you'll write a long-winded answer with no clear paragraphs so save it because I won't read it, I just had to get this out of my system because the rudeness actually got on my nerves this time.
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To make sure we're still talking about meta - people are bringing back boltbeam to deal with Gliscor. Volt Switch + Tera Blast Ice seems to be the drug of choice with Thundurus-T. Would Zapdos and Kilowattrel work with a similar boltbeam pivot idea? Zapdos being way bulkier, and Kilowattrel having enough base speed to outspeed most of the unboosted meta, or are the benefits just not good enough to warrant committing your 1/game Tera?
Probably not, but I would like to see it. The reason why bolt beam is best on Thundurus-T is due to it's sheer power. Now, I'm not saying that 125 or 105 sp.atk is weak, but with a poor defensive type like ice, you have to pick up ko's to survive. Kilowattrel will probably be the better of the two that you mentioned due to it's 125 speed, but that is somehow slow in this meta. Remember when starmie's 115 speed was considered blazing fast, yeah.... I don't think zapdos' extra bulk would be worth it as let's remember, avalugg only had a small niche in gen 7 OU and has otherwise been PU despite 95 hp with 185 defense. Defensive ice types do not work.To make sure we're still talking about meta - people are bringing back boltbeam to deal with Gliscor. Volt Switch + Tera Blast Ice seems to be the drug of choice with Thundurus-T. Would Zapdos and Kilowattrel work with a similar boltbeam pivot idea? Zapdos being way bulkier, and Kilowattrel having enough base speed to outspeed most of the unboosted meta, or are the benefits just not good enough to warrant committing your 1/game Tera?
"And I think it's OU in these gens only by usage."
have you tried running it on a sun team? i feel like the proto boost would help a lot with netting those kills you're looking for. or maybe—hear me out here, this is gonna sound nuts—a hail team? sandy shocks has not-bad bulk, which would quickly become a lot better behind aurora veil, and tera ice would let you boost your defense even further. not sure how much it's worth it to use defensive buffs to try to compensate for lack of immediate kill power, but it's at least worth experimenting with i thinkI've run Tera Ice Sandy Shocks in the past, and while it is strong (Electric/Ice/Ground coverage is nuts, you guys, it's so dumb) I found myself still missing some KOs and then getting smoked by the bad typing.
I think the idea here was something along the lines of DPP Electivire, which was OU by usage due to popularity rather than metagame viability and was generally considered a noobtrap. I don't agree with this sentiment regarding Clefable in the slightest due to its valuable abilities, bulk, as well as varied movepool and sets that allow it to consistently find well defined roles in many generations of OU, but I can see where they're coming from."And I think it's OU in these gens only by usage."
I was going to leave this alone, but I've had juuust enough to drink tonight to continue to derail this thread.
How do you think our tiers are established? Do you have any idea how Smogon works?
Actually, I lied, I don't have the energy to go into the tirade I had planned. Let's ignore the troll.
In general, Overqwil doesn't have the initial power that makes other Rain Sweepers so threatenting, and it isn't getting its STAB boosted in Rain. Unlike other Pokemon like Floatzel, Overqwil will be struggling to break past walls and bulky Pokemon like Kingambit and Corviknight. Also it can't switch into Ogerpon-W directly.Im not An OU hater. But what is nonsense to me is not natdex, it's OU saying precisely that: Rain is bad, ogerpon-w destroys it. Meanwhile, overqwil, Rain abuser that kills ogerpon-w, is shit in Rain. Give me 7 counter arguments And I will reconsider it. otherwise you won't change my mind.
my counter argument is for you to take a day off from this thread for your own sake and our own sake; if you need 7, take a weekIm not An OU hater. But what is nonsense to me is not natdex, it's OU saying precisely that: Rain is bad, ogerpon-w destroys it. Meanwhile, overqwil, Rain abuser that kills ogerpon-w, is shit in Rain. Give me 7 counter arguments And I will reconsider it. otherwise you won't change my mind.
Super late, but this reminds me of RestTalk Keldeo back in ORAS, which functioned as a hard stop to Bisharp and Weavile in a format where most teams (particularly balance) didn’t really have hard stops to them for the most part and instead relied on KOff-weak soft checks that banked on them not surviving long enough to fuck you up entirely.On the ladder last night, I saw someone use Chesto Berry Rest Great Tusk as his Kingambit check. The Kingambit user thought he had won since Great Tusk was in range of being KOed by a +2 Sucker Punch, but the Great Tusk user used Rest and ended Kingambit's dreams. It was an interesting tech to see given Great Tusk's tendency to get chipped over the course of a game.
Bax set the record for most public support in a survey ever. It had more than any other quickban this generation or last generation. It had hardly any reasonable counterplay. It would’ve been malpractice to not quickban it.I'd like to think this happened with baxcalibur's ban which in my opinion felt a bit rushed.
I understand this point of view which is why I mentioned in my previous post that I do not condemn the actions of the council at all in banning certain pokemon, and this definitely applies to baxcalibur. I also understand that the council is pretty much the face of the community and with this amount of support, a ban was inevitable. I also, however, think that given the nature of such a swift ban, it's harder to predict what will happen next to the metagame as at the time it wasn't fleshed out completely (DLC had just been released).Bax set the record for most public support in a survey ever. It had more than any other quickban this generation or last generation. It had hardly any reasonable counterplay. It would’ve been malpractice to not quickban it.
the thing about that is, none of the things on the most recent survey were even new. they'd all been on a survey or a radar post previously and each one had received a substantial number of complaints since the start of the dlc. this isn't a matter of new broken things popping up when old things are banned, it's just that there happens to be a whole bunch of broken thingsin this tier more than any other, banning things earlier on is bound to create this kind of scenario where a new suspect is announced every three weeks and you have more and more people complaining about how the next pokemon on the list is broken, more importantly though, the metagame never seems to find stability.
Baxcalibur with everything that it had and everything it kept getting was correctly borderline broken but even potentially ban-worthy without Veil. DLC1 also gave it access to scale shot which not only gave it a way of boosting speed that did not rely on dragon dance (meaning swords dance/choice locked sets could speed boost) but also gave it another way of abusing the loaded dice item (which it was previously running anyway just to use icicle spear). Tera unfortunately does favor setup sweepers and Baxcalibur was one of the best users of tera because of that. There was so much to Bax it most likely needed to go anyways and the whole ANinetales Veil situation being so viable just made that banworthiness more obvious.I'd like to think this happened with baxcalibur's ban which in my opinion felt a bit rushed.
It may have been more beneficial for the tier to look into banning veil rather than baxcalibur regardless of it being borderline broken (very similarly to how kingambit was suspected but not banned) as the only ice type in ou currently is ninetales which has been seing very poor usage and to hit gliscor you have to resort to things like tera blast ice zapdos or ice spinner tusk which are both shaky answers.
I believe with baxcalibur back in the tier roaring moon would have sort of been kept in check as well.
The other thing here is people have been complaining about 'the next broken pokemon on the list' since the beginning of the generation. It was not really something that started with Bax's ban and rather us slowly sorting out the tier. As sad as it is to say after about a year of the tier, but we are still sorting out what is/isn't broken or overwhelming for the tier. This gen has dropped an unprecedented amount of power creep with an equally unprecedented amount of stall nerfs. As much as people don't like stall mons: its a matter of fact that if a pokemon is incredibly offensively threatening and there is no mon that is able to sit back and wall it, its going to be banned. DLC1 also adds some complication to this since as we were starting to get settled into having most obviously broken pokemon banned, we get many probably ban worthy pokemon as well as buffs to pokemon that were strong already. Stability was never something we had found before and honestly it will probably be something we need to dig for for a while. There are still pokemon around that are clearly too much and who knows if we'll get them sorted out by DLC2. Either way if we finally dig through all the unwallable things continuously shoved on us I believe stability is possible.In a metagame where terastalization can create so many variables; in this tier more than any other, banning things earlier on is bound to create this kind of scenario where a new suspect is announced every three weeks and you have more and more people complaining about how the next pokemon on the list is broken, more importantly though, the metagame never seems to find stability.
Though admittedly hard to exploit given the squads Gliscor finds itself a part of, it's not a very good special wall. Unboosted Iron Valiant will always 3HKO with Moonblast, and while it will likely take a toxic in return, this isn't the end of the world as the guaranteed follow up protect can be used to get something in that can kill Gliscor but doesn't want to take a hit or a toxic in return, forcing it out and forcing chip on something else. This doesn't detract from your point, though. Gliscor is extremely good, arguably better than it's ever been. That being said I don't think it's banworthy, at least not right now. I've said this before but I do think that the Gliscor suspect should have happened after the Gholdengo suspect, because I believe the issues with Gliscor are exacerbated by the lack of hazard control in the metagame, with 3.5 spinners, 1 defogger, and Cinderace, who's form of hazard removal does not care about Gholdengo and also falls apart if the opponent also has hazards. Provided that Gliscor stays in the tier, I'd much rather see him retested fairly quickly after a Gholdengo test (provided that test ends in Gholdengo leaving the tier) so it's more obvious where the issue lies. I, of course, will be the first to admit that I'm not the greatest player in the world ever. 1500s pre home doesn't mean much when you're stuck in the low-mid 1400s on a good day nowadays. Notably, I did not see the issue with Bloodmoon, because I was stuck in low ladder and people in low ladder were not using it in a way that made it hard to deal with very often, which definitely skewed my viewpoint and I'll readily admit that. But I think I'm reasonably qualified, with my good amount of experience in Gen 7 OU (not the greatest there either), to say that Gliscor probably isn't banworthy with a reasonable amount of hazard removal available to be used in whichever tier it is present in.Gliscor can be defeated currently its just not something that practically occurs and the things it does while sitting around are much more uncounterable. This gets back into real cause of gliscor's brokenness being the issue with hazard removal, a low number of mons that can deal with Toxic+Earthquake, and the inability for major threats that aren't Water/Ice to be able to beat it even with coverage.
Regarding this, in a recent game I once again performed the "Grassy Terrain Sneasler Shuffle", getting Sneasler in for free against Gliscor in grassy terrain (in this case they tried to toxic my Rillaboom but the idea of switching on a protect stands regardless) and clicking SD twice because Grassy Terrain is stupid. Gliscor can be easy to exploit, but the big problem with this idea is positioning. Against a good player and not a fellow 1300s pleb, this move likely would not have worked. To reiterate: Gliscor is good at what it does, but once you know the set it's also relatively easy to exploit with the right team comp. (Yes the person in this example had a Gholdengo, but it didn't matter because Night Slash is better than Dire Claw on Seedler to not get walled by exactly Gholdengo. Seedler cannot single handedly break stall, don't put dire claw on it to try and hax through stall, it likely wont work.)and while it will likely take a toxic in return, this isn't the end of the world as the guaranteed follow up protect can be used to get something in that can kill Gliscor but doesn't want to take a hit or a toxic in return, forcing it out and forcing chip on something else.
we're not still sorting it out, we all know what generally is and isn't broken. the process just takes way too long to balance a temporary meta like this oneAs sad as it is to say after about a year of the tier, but we are still sorting out what is/isn't broken or overwhelming for the tier.
252 SpA Kilowattrel Tera (Ice) Blast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 376-444 (106.8 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKOTo make sure we're still talking about meta - people are bringing back boltbeam to deal with Gliscor. Volt Switch + Tera Blast Ice seems to be the drug of choice with Thundurus-T. Would Zapdos and Kilowattrel work with a similar boltbeam pivot idea? Zapdos being way bulkier, and Kilowattrel having enough base speed to outspeed most of the unboosted meta, or are the benefits just not good enough to warrant committing your 1/game Tera?
The fact that Hidden Power Ice is no longer a thing, and also not one of the most widespread coverage moves in the game? But Idk man maybe I'm tripping or somethin'For those that played actual gens before this one where gliscor was allowed, it's no secret that this mon always required a strong level of prep to not autolose. And still with good prep behind for it, gliscor could still win if played correctly, if it was for me I would have considered a suspect long ago in past gens like sm and oras. What changed then with sv?
Boltbeam has never ever been bad, but this being said, Zapdos using tera ice would SUCK because Zapdos is a defensive pokemon even when using offensive sets. Thund-T, though still quite bad in my opinion due to the speed tier, is the only Flying/Electric type that makes tera ice works. (STOP RUNNING HP FLYING ON THUND T IN GEN 7, HP ICE IS BETTER). In my opinion, if you want to use a fast offensive electric type for bolt beam coverage, specs Jolteon or speed energy Sandy Shocks is the way to go. (Jolteon sucks do not use it)To make sure we're still talking about meta - people are bringing back boltbeam to deal with Gliscor. Volt Switch + Tera Blast Ice seems to be the drug of choice with Thundurus-T. Would Zapdos and Kilowattrel work with a similar boltbeam pivot idea? Zapdos being way bulkier, and Kilowattrel having enough base speed to outspeed most of the unboosted meta, or are the benefits just not good enough to warrant committing your 1/game Tera?
i like to think of the vr as the extent of what mons you can reasonably expect to see in tours or on mid-high ladder, so I consider ou as a meta to have 98 mons even though ou as a tier has 35. it's a lot more diverse than the statistics showAlmost 40 good mons plus (usually) 15-25 lower tier mons that you'd reasonably expect to see in a high level tour. Granted, I think they were trying to argue that there is less room for those lower tier picks considering the stranglehold that hazard stack teams have on the meta rn
Boltbeam has never been bad, but it is very difficult to fit onto a set this gen. What has 70+ BP boltbeam coverage this gen? Mew and Conkeldurr I think. :/ Tera ice kinda fixes this but commiting a tera is a big deal so it has to be very efficient.Boltbeam has never ever been bad, but this being said, Zapdos using tera ice would SUCK because Zapdos is a defensive pokemon even when using offensive sets. Thund-T, though still quite bad in my opinion due to the speed tier, is the only Flying/Electric type that makes tera ice works. (STOP RUNNING HP FLYING ON THUND T IN GEN 7, HP ICE IS BETTER). In my opinion, if you want to use a fast offensive electric type for bolt beam coverage, specs Jolteon or speed energy Sandy Shocks is the way to go. (Jolteon sucks do not use it)