252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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People are reacting negatively to what you are saying mostly because it is crystal-clear you prefer a different format over OU and how disrespectful you are to others. Having a different preference is not bad by any means, but it does become an issue when you start using *very* different weights for *very* different metas, while going to other formats' forums to say "hey your format sux" while saying truly outlandish stuff. You did say that Clefable was a bad pick and only OU by usage.
It is fine to have odd opinions - hey, lots of cool strategies are born out of different opinions, but do not find it weird when people disapprove when you make it clear you despise the meta you're talking about. Also, you still managed to insult both people who play Clefable and people who like Clefable. I'm neither, but those demographics are very different for sure.
It does not help that you hold absolutely no respect for people whose opinion differ from yours.
Do you understand how insulting it is to call "kindergarten" something people are passionate about? There is only so much you can blame on language barrier before it becomes obvious you truly disdain everyone in the conversation. By seeing your behavior in this forum, I know you'll write a long-winded answer with no clear paragraphs so save it because I won't read it, I just had to get this out of my system because the rudeness actually got on my nerves this time.
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To make sure we're still talking about meta - people are bringing back boltbeam to deal with Gliscor. Volt Switch + Tera Blast Ice seems to be the drug of choice with Thundurus-T. Would Zapdos and Kilowattrel work with a similar boltbeam pivot idea? Zapdos being way bulkier, and Kilowattrel having enough base speed to outspeed most of the unboosted meta, or are the benefits just not good enough to warrant committing your 1/game Tera?
"And I think it's OU in these gens only by usage."
I was going to leave this alone, but I've had juuust enough to drink tonight to continue to derail this thread.
How do you think our tiers are established? Do you have any idea how Smogon works?
Actually, I lied, I don't have the energy to go into the tirade I had planned. Let's ignore the troll.
I feel like using Tera Ice and still taking advantage of Zapdos's bulk would require not popping your Tera until late in the game, which is where most Teras want to be spent anyway, and if you do use it to get a surprise KO on Gliscor (leadDragapultgettingsmokedbyTeraIceBlastsayswhat?) you're sacrificing any defensive profile for the lure. I don't think I've ever used Kilowattrel outside of OMs where I stuck with Tera Flying Hurricane, but if someone wants to prove me wrong and show their birb smoking an opposing team I'd be delighted.
I was going to leave this alone, but I've had juuust enough to drink tonight to continue to derail this thread.
How do you think our tiers are established? Do you have any idea how Smogon works?
Actually, I lied, I don't have the energy to go into the tirade I had planned. Let's ignore the troll.
Ice is such a bad defensive typing (though Zapdos certainly runs Boots enough) that I feel like Thundurus only gets away with it thanks to its titanic 145 SpA. I've run Tera Ice Sandy Shocks in the past, and while it is strong (Electric/Ice/Ground coverage is nuts, you guys, it's so dumb) I found myself still missing some KOs and then getting smoked by the bad typing.
I feel like using Tera Ice and still taking advantage of Zapdos's bulk would require not popping your Tera until late in the game, which is where most Teras want to be spent anyway, and if you do use it to get a surprise KO on Gliscor (leadDragapultgettingsmokedbyTeraIceBlastsayswhat?) you're sacrificing any defensive profile for the lure. I don't think I've ever used Kilowattrel outside of OMs where I stuck with Tera Flying Hurricane, but if someone wants to prove me wrong and show their birb smoking an opposing team I'd be delighted.
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Probably not, but I would like to see it. The reason why bolt beam is best on Thundurus-T is due to it's sheer power. Now, I'm not saying that 125 or 105 sp.atk is weak, but with a poor defensive type like ice, you have to pick up ko's to survive. Kilowattrel will probably be the better of the two that you mentioned due to it's 125 speed, but that is somehow slow in this meta. Remember when starmie's 115 speed was considered blazing fast, yeah.... I don't think zapdos' extra bulk would be worth it as let's remember, avalugg only had a small niche in gen 7 OU and has otherwise been PU despite 95 hp with 185 defense. Defensive ice types do not work.
seriously, i think the guy might be the reincarnation of james joyce, his posts straddle the same fine line between coherent nonsense and straight-up gibberish
have you tried running it on a sun team? i feel like the proto boost would help a lot with netting those kills you're looking for. or maybe—hear me out here, this is gonna sound nuts—a hail team? sandy shocks has not-bad bulk, which would quickly become a lot better behind aurora veil, and tera ice would let you boost your defense even further. not sure how much it's worth it to use defensive buffs to try to compensate for lack of immediate kill power, but it's at least worth experimenting with i think
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I think the idea here was something along the lines of DPP Electivire, which was OU by usage due to popularity rather than metagame viability and was generally considered a noobtrap. I don't agree with this sentiment regarding Clefable in the slightest due to its valuable abilities, bulk, as well as varied movepool and sets that allow it to consistently find well defined roles in many generations of OU, but I can see where they're coming from.
Im not An OU hater. But what is nonsense to me is not natdex, it's OU saying precisely that: Rain is bad, ogerpon-w destroys it. Meanwhile, overqwil, Rain abuser that kills ogerpon-w, is shit in Rain. Give me 7 counter arguments And I will reconsider it. otherwise you won't change my mind.
In general, Overqwil doesn't have the initial power that makes other Rain Sweepers so threatenting, and it isn't getting its STAB boosted in Rain. Unlike other Pokemon like Floatzel, Overqwil will be struggling to break past walls and bulky Pokemon like Kingambit and Corviknight. Also it can't switch into Ogerpon-W directly.
my counter argument is for you to take a day off from this thread for your own sake and our own sake; if you need 7, take a week
Who’s been trying shell smash torterra?
it’s not good.. but it’s okay
and with webs support it’s very fun.
currently using the bullet seed set, which is prone to being revenged. But when torterra works, it really works!
tera type is poison or fire so far, any advice from others?
The set:
Torterra @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 Atk / 44 Def / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Shell Smash
You need webs support for the booster energy Pokémon’s and the odd scarfer. Most of these tend to be grounded and will be affected by webs.
Using it with a semi-Superman team so that it doesn’t need a great tusk and can thus go all-out with only ribombee/gholdengo as the fixed partners. Cinderace doesn’t bother you at all when both sides have webs.
ribombee is amazing in current meta. I would be really sad to see gholdengo banned, mainly because ribombee won’t be as viable a Pokémon against the onslaught of booster energy abusers.
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On the topic of ribombee + Superman meaning no reliance on a tusk, HDB iron moth with webs support is a menace against offensive teams.. maybe that’s why I’m seeing a major uptick in heatran, skeledirge and ceruledge.
it’s not good.. but it’s okay
and with webs support it’s very fun.
currently using the bullet seed set, which is prone to being revenged. But when torterra works, it really works!
tera type is poison or fire so far, any advice from others?
The set:
Torterra @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 Atk / 44 Def / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Shell Smash
You need webs support for the booster energy Pokémon’s and the odd scarfer. Most of these tend to be grounded and will be affected by webs.
Using it with a semi-Superman team so that it doesn’t need a great tusk and can thus go all-out with only ribombee/gholdengo as the fixed partners. Cinderace doesn’t bother you at all when both sides have webs.
ribombee is amazing in current meta. I would be really sad to see gholdengo banned, mainly because ribombee won’t be as viable a Pokémon against the onslaught of booster energy abusers.
—
On the topic of ribombee + Superman meaning no reliance on a tusk, HDB iron moth with webs support is a menace against offensive teams.. maybe that’s why I’m seeing a major uptick in heatran, skeledirge and ceruledge.
Super late, but this reminds me of RestTalk Keldeo back in ORAS, which functioned as a hard stop to Bisharp and Weavile in a format where most teams (particularly balance) didn’t really have hard stops to them for the most part and instead relied on KOff-weak soft checks that banked on them not surviving long enough to fuck you up entirely.
Always a big fan of random Rest mons. Obv I can’t imagine something like that’d be as consistent with Tera Blast Kingambit and whatnot, but still cool.
I'd like to post my thoughts on the current suspect, since I will go through a bunch of stuff (not necessarily all linked to gliscor) posting here makes more sense.
First of all I really dislike the way this suspect started. The campaign surrounding it and moved by individuals like njnp seemed quite awkward to me, for you in particular, being someone that cares about reaching a balanced state of the metagame and then being one of the supporters of a future darkrai test, you don't really seem to have a clear idea of what you want to achieve. You mentioned that getting rid of gliscor would solve the hazards issue and unless you changed stance on this I'll tell you that it's not solving a single thing and you could find way better arguments to support a gliscor test( which would be respectable, if only this gen was handled in a proper way but it's not the case). Yes gliscor was pictured as the monster warping the metagame and constricting it to the point that its influence is unmatched and the campaign moved this way helped reaching a consensus in the latest surveys. I find the latter very easy to manipulate and in my opinion you did it well to convince a lot of people that it is the actual problem, moving the attention away from far more problematic threats and situations that maybe you don't want to address or make the playerbase aware of.
For those that played actual gens before this one where gliscor was allowed, it's no secret that this mon always required a strong level of prep to not autolose. And still with good prep behind for it, gliscor could still win if played correctly, if it was for me I would have considered a suspect long ago in past gens like sm and oras. What changed then with sv? Gliscor still requires high preparation, what makes it more troublesome is the fact that this high level of preparation struggles with all the other preps you do with the current threats around, that require even more effort than gliscor to be answered to. If you put in the cauldron all the booster threats, gambit, gholdengo, sneasler, manaphy, ogerpon then yes indeed gliscor might seem more busted than it should be. Do you want to make it even more insufferable? Add tera in the mix and you get a full clown contest. Because as much as the surveys will tell you to not think about it and postpone tera discussion and thinking, no, you can't. Tera is the biggest part of gen 9 and also the biggest culprit of the major problems we have, it can't be ignored and has to be discussed as well if you want to have a full vision of the metagame.
Since we've arrived here, back to the hazards issue. We know already defog is limited and spinning in a gen of various and strong ghost mons is not reliable. Have you considered that tera exacerbates further the problem? I doubt I'm the only one seeing setters running tera ghost/steel depending if they want to answer rapid spin or mortal spin. Or the common scenario seen between baloon gholdengo and tusk. Even if tusk manages to break the baloon with ice spinner then tera moments start when you can't go for a kill with head long rush because gholdengo can tera, tank the hit and rkill tusk. You might then say yes but now you consumed your tera for this sequence, indeed, now your team is totally punished by webs dropping your speed and good luck revenge killing manaphy and friends. The advantage can be so big that consuming your tera is worthy enough. And then at this point I ask you all(rhetorical question) if gliscor is also the best webs setter. Removing gliscor won't change the fact that the restriction on the builder will still be super heavy that going full heavy duty boots or playing cinderace will be your best chance to not succumb to webs or other kind of hazards stacking. Surprisingly gliscor is not the only good spiker, both ting lu and samurott do an egregious job, ting lu in case gliscor goes will only be buffed and tera ghost sets can still setup as much as they like on tusk and keep the fun going, something we already saw in past iterations of the metagame.
Gliscor if anything is giving not offensive playstyles a chance to be played, it's a phenomenal pivot into a bunch of threats and can retain needed longevity, without it offense will just prevail even more than now and we go back to boosters mirror, zapdos will get more room and we're back on static moments as a sorry excuse to check other mons. The fact that it can setup spikes restricts more offensive playstyles(that can't spam boots) that have to be focused and play in a more careful way, not necessarily rushing and setupping turn 1 and go for game. Gliscor encourages some thinking that as it seems most of the people don't want to do. An actual argument that the gliscor ban supporters could have pushed more on instead would have been that its sd sets are definitely far more annoying to deal with and rkilling it became a lot harder because of what? Yes, if you answered tera you're right once again, congrats. Too bad the metagame is full of unreasonable setuppers that with the skilled mechanic can completely flip a match up, it's not a coincidence that at the moment a move that became pretty much a staple because it's the only thing that can turn around the momentum gained with tera is encore. Specific encore mons to answer specific threats in most situations to deal with fair stuff like manaphy, gambit and the list goes on. You see how limited and pathetic the situation is and surprisingly gliscor is not the major offender.
No one is mentioning rillaboom, in my opinion that mon has warped the metagame on a large scale as well, enables sneasler further(a mon that still hasn't seen action and that really scares me how it's so accepted to play the rng game with that thing and dire claw moments) and on its own it's a big challenge to switch into because of teragrass wood hammer and grassy glide, both cb and sd sets are devastating. But is rillaboom fine because it's funnier to spam wood hammer compared to gliscor spamming toxic and spikes? I wonder about that.
If the council would, it could definitely raise awareness on the problems surrounding the metagame(as they did with gliscor and encouraging to ban it) and not relying solely on surveys to take action(the only move that made sense was quickbanning volcarona, ironically a regretted decision by many of them only because there was not enough consensus), assuming they have an idea of what is happening but it doesn't seem the case for now. A more aggressive approach is what could maybe save this gen together with a removal of terastallization and then proceed to ban all the powecreepped beasts that have no business in an ou environment.
And if this approach can't be taken because of a flawed tiering policy then that should change too because for now following it didn't bring any good result.
To conclude, I think gliscor staying in ou for now would be the optimal thing, a mon like this is needed to keep up with the obscene amount of offensive threats, it's a crucial presence and should only leave in later stages if possible when the other gigantic problems are taken care of, banning it now in my eyes means aggravating the situation. I also encourage the posters here to use more critical thinking and not necessarily blindly following the most fashionable users that are for sure entitled to have their opinion, but having strong support for that opinion doesn't make them right on all the matters.
First of all I really dislike the way this suspect started. The campaign surrounding it and moved by individuals like njnp seemed quite awkward to me, for you in particular, being someone that cares about reaching a balanced state of the metagame and then being one of the supporters of a future darkrai test, you don't really seem to have a clear idea of what you want to achieve. You mentioned that getting rid of gliscor would solve the hazards issue and unless you changed stance on this I'll tell you that it's not solving a single thing and you could find way better arguments to support a gliscor test( which would be respectable, if only this gen was handled in a proper way but it's not the case). Yes gliscor was pictured as the monster warping the metagame and constricting it to the point that its influence is unmatched and the campaign moved this way helped reaching a consensus in the latest surveys. I find the latter very easy to manipulate and in my opinion you did it well to convince a lot of people that it is the actual problem, moving the attention away from far more problematic threats and situations that maybe you don't want to address or make the playerbase aware of.
For those that played actual gens before this one where gliscor was allowed, it's no secret that this mon always required a strong level of prep to not autolose. And still with good prep behind for it, gliscor could still win if played correctly, if it was for me I would have considered a suspect long ago in past gens like sm and oras. What changed then with sv? Gliscor still requires high preparation, what makes it more troublesome is the fact that this high level of preparation struggles with all the other preps you do with the current threats around, that require even more effort than gliscor to be answered to. If you put in the cauldron all the booster threats, gambit, gholdengo, sneasler, manaphy, ogerpon then yes indeed gliscor might seem more busted than it should be. Do you want to make it even more insufferable? Add tera in the mix and you get a full clown contest. Because as much as the surveys will tell you to not think about it and postpone tera discussion and thinking, no, you can't. Tera is the biggest part of gen 9 and also the biggest culprit of the major problems we have, it can't be ignored and has to be discussed as well if you want to have a full vision of the metagame.
Since we've arrived here, back to the hazards issue. We know already defog is limited and spinning in a gen of various and strong ghost mons is not reliable. Have you considered that tera exacerbates further the problem? I doubt I'm the only one seeing setters running tera ghost/steel depending if they want to answer rapid spin or mortal spin. Or the common scenario seen between baloon gholdengo and tusk. Even if tusk manages to break the baloon with ice spinner then tera moments start when you can't go for a kill with head long rush because gholdengo can tera, tank the hit and rkill tusk. You might then say yes but now you consumed your tera for this sequence, indeed, now your team is totally punished by webs dropping your speed and good luck revenge killing manaphy and friends. The advantage can be so big that consuming your tera is worthy enough. And then at this point I ask you all(rhetorical question) if gliscor is also the best webs setter. Removing gliscor won't change the fact that the restriction on the builder will still be super heavy that going full heavy duty boots or playing cinderace will be your best chance to not succumb to webs or other kind of hazards stacking. Surprisingly gliscor is not the only good spiker, both ting lu and samurott do an egregious job, ting lu in case gliscor goes will only be buffed and tera ghost sets can still setup as much as they like on tusk and keep the fun going, something we already saw in past iterations of the metagame.
Gliscor if anything is giving not offensive playstyles a chance to be played, it's a phenomenal pivot into a bunch of threats and can retain needed longevity, without it offense will just prevail even more than now and we go back to boosters mirror, zapdos will get more room and we're back on static moments as a sorry excuse to check other mons. The fact that it can setup spikes restricts more offensive playstyles(that can't spam boots) that have to be focused and play in a more careful way, not necessarily rushing and setupping turn 1 and go for game. Gliscor encourages some thinking that as it seems most of the people don't want to do. An actual argument that the gliscor ban supporters could have pushed more on instead would have been that its sd sets are definitely far more annoying to deal with and rkilling it became a lot harder because of what? Yes, if you answered tera you're right once again, congrats. Too bad the metagame is full of unreasonable setuppers that with the skilled mechanic can completely flip a match up, it's not a coincidence that at the moment a move that became pretty much a staple because it's the only thing that can turn around the momentum gained with tera is encore. Specific encore mons to answer specific threats in most situations to deal with fair stuff like manaphy, gambit and the list goes on. You see how limited and pathetic the situation is and surprisingly gliscor is not the major offender.
No one is mentioning rillaboom, in my opinion that mon has warped the metagame on a large scale as well, enables sneasler further(a mon that still hasn't seen action and that really scares me how it's so accepted to play the rng game with that thing and dire claw moments) and on its own it's a big challenge to switch into because of teragrass wood hammer and grassy glide, both cb and sd sets are devastating. But is rillaboom fine because it's funnier to spam wood hammer compared to gliscor spamming toxic and spikes? I wonder about that.
If the council would, it could definitely raise awareness on the problems surrounding the metagame(as they did with gliscor and encouraging to ban it) and not relying solely on surveys to take action(the only move that made sense was quickbanning volcarona, ironically a regretted decision by many of them only because there was not enough consensus), assuming they have an idea of what is happening but it doesn't seem the case for now. A more aggressive approach is what could maybe save this gen together with a removal of terastallization and then proceed to ban all the powecreepped beasts that have no business in an ou environment.
And if this approach can't be taken because of a flawed tiering policy then that should change too because for now following it didn't bring any good result.
To conclude, I think gliscor staying in ou for now would be the optimal thing, a mon like this is needed to keep up with the obscene amount of offensive threats, it's a crucial presence and should only leave in later stages if possible when the other gigantic problems are taken care of, banning it now in my eyes means aggravating the situation. I also encourage the posters here to use more critical thinking and not necessarily blindly following the most fashionable users that are for sure entitled to have their opinion, but having strong support for that opinion doesn't make them right on all the matters.
I think the chain of recent suspects is a consequence of one pokemon leaving the metagame and another one taking over.
I'd like to think this happened with baxcalibur's ban which in my opinion felt a bit rushed.
It may have been more beneficial for the tier to look into banning veil rather than baxcalibur regardless of it being borderline broken (very similarly to how kingambit was suspected but not banned) as the only ice type in ou currently is ninetales which has been seing very poor usage and to hit gliscor you have to resort to things like tera blast ice zapdos or ice spinner tusk which are both shaky answers.
I believe with baxcalibur back in the tier roaring moon would have sort of been kept in check as well.
I don't blame the council as I think this tier is extremely difficult to manage and it's hard to predict the various changes in the meta once you ban a pokemon, especially when a majority of the community is complaining about how "x" pokemon is broken (many such cases).
This is to say that when the new DLC comes out i would like to see less bans early on as they tend to lead to a "snowball" kind of scenario where a pokemon becomes too overcentralizing because another one was banned.
I'd like to propose some consideration as well for retesting urshifu water when the dlc comes out as we have new checks like ogerpon as well as rillaboom having regained grassy glide and its usage being so high.
I'd like to think this happened with baxcalibur's ban which in my opinion felt a bit rushed.
It may have been more beneficial for the tier to look into banning veil rather than baxcalibur regardless of it being borderline broken (very similarly to how kingambit was suspected but not banned) as the only ice type in ou currently is ninetales which has been seing very poor usage and to hit gliscor you have to resort to things like tera blast ice zapdos or ice spinner tusk which are both shaky answers.
I believe with baxcalibur back in the tier roaring moon would have sort of been kept in check as well.
I don't blame the council as I think this tier is extremely difficult to manage and it's hard to predict the various changes in the meta once you ban a pokemon, especially when a majority of the community is complaining about how "x" pokemon is broken (many such cases).
This is to say that when the new DLC comes out i would like to see less bans early on as they tend to lead to a "snowball" kind of scenario where a pokemon becomes too overcentralizing because another one was banned.
I'd like to propose some consideration as well for retesting urshifu water when the dlc comes out as we have new checks like ogerpon as well as rillaboom having regained grassy glide and its usage being so high.
Bax set the record for most public support in a survey ever. It had more than any other quickban this generation or last generation. It had hardly any reasonable counterplay. It would’ve been malpractice to not quickban it.
To your larger point, Veil clearly isn’t broken. It wasn’t broken then so much as the setting in which Bax thrived the most (not like it was exclusive to Veil though) and it certainly isn’t broken now, and I don’t even think it’s particularly close.
You don’t just tier to preserve broken Pokemon to keep an Ice type in the metagame; multiple bans, which can be related to each other over time, are frequently needed with new releases and that’s the point of tiering rather than the sign of something negative or bad.
I appreciate your insight a great deal, but I cannot say I agree at all and I think we would’ve seen literal riots had Bax remained in the tier.
I understand this point of view which is why I mentioned in my previous post that I do not condemn the actions of the council at all in banning certain pokemon, and this definitely applies to baxcalibur. I also understand that the council is pretty much the face of the community and with this amount of support, a ban was inevitable. I also, however, think that given the nature of such a swift ban, it's harder to predict what will happen next to the metagame as at the time it wasn't fleshed out completely (DLC had just been released).
Again, I'm not complaining about the way the council decided to go about things in regards to baxcalibur since the community was very outspoken, nor do I think that veil is broken at all, my point has to do with a broader context. In a metagame where terastalization can create so many variables; in this tier more than any other, banning things earlier on is bound to create this kind of scenario where a new suspect is announced every three weeks and you have more and more people complaining about how the next pokemon on the list is broken, more importantly though, the metagame never seems to find stability.
Thank you for the time you took to read my post even if we share different views.
the thing about that is, none of the things on the most recent survey were even new. they'd all been on a survey or a radar post previously and each one had received a substantial number of complaints since the start of the dlc. this isn't a matter of new broken things popping up when old things are banned, it's just that there happens to be a whole bunch of broken things
Baxcalibur with everything that it had and everything it kept getting was correctly borderline broken but even potentially ban-worthy without Veil. DLC1 also gave it access to scale shot which not only gave it a way of boosting speed that did not rely on dragon dance (meaning swords dance/choice locked sets could speed boost) but also gave it another way of abusing the loaded dice item (which it was previously running anyway just to use icicle spear). Tera unfortunately does favor setup sweepers and Baxcalibur was one of the best users of tera because of that. There was so much to Bax it most likely needed to go anyways and the whole ANinetales Veil situation being so viable just made that banworthiness more obvious.
Additionally, seeing Bax's ban as causing Gliscor's brokenness is a bit short sighted. The issue with gliscor is *not* the absence of a viable Ice type. Hell, there are plenty of viable water types that can hit it super effective/OHKO it in the tier prior to tera. Gliscor can be defeated currently its just not something that practically occurs and the things it does while sitting around are much more uncounterable. This gets back into real cause of gliscor's brokenness being the issue with hazard removal, a low number of mons that can deal with Toxic+Earthquake, and the inability for major threats that aren't Water/Ice to be able to beat it even with coverage.
The other thing here is people have been complaining about 'the next broken pokemon on the list' since the beginning of the generation. It was not really something that started with Bax's ban and rather us slowly sorting out the tier. As sad as it is to say after about a year of the tier, but we are still sorting out what is/isn't broken or overwhelming for the tier. This gen has dropped an unprecedented amount of power creep with an equally unprecedented amount of stall nerfs. As much as people don't like stall mons: its a matter of fact that if a pokemon is incredibly offensively threatening and there is no mon that is able to sit back and wall it, its going to be banned. DLC1 also adds some complication to this since as we were starting to get settled into having most obviously broken pokemon banned, we get many probably ban worthy pokemon as well as buffs to pokemon that were strong already. Stability was never something we had found before and honestly it will probably be something we need to dig for for a while. There are still pokemon around that are clearly too much and who knows if we'll get them sorted out by DLC2. Either way if we finally dig through all the unwallable things continuously shoved on us I believe stability is possible.
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Though admittedly hard to exploit given the squads Gliscor finds itself a part of, it's not a very good special wall. Unboosted Iron Valiant will always 3HKO with Moonblast, and while it will likely take a toxic in return, this isn't the end of the world as the guaranteed follow up protect can be used to get something in that can kill Gliscor but doesn't want to take a hit or a toxic in return, forcing it out and forcing chip on something else. This doesn't detract from your point, though. Gliscor is extremely good, arguably better than it's ever been. That being said I don't think it's banworthy, at least not right now. I've said this before but I do think that the Gliscor suspect should have happened after the Gholdengo suspect, because I believe the issues with Gliscor are exacerbated by the lack of hazard control in the metagame, with 3.5 spinners, 1 defogger, and Cinderace, who's form of hazard removal does not care about Gholdengo and also falls apart if the opponent also has hazards. Provided that Gliscor stays in the tier, I'd much rather see him retested fairly quickly after a Gholdengo test (provided that test ends in Gholdengo leaving the tier) so it's more obvious where the issue lies. I, of course, will be the first to admit that I'm not the greatest player in the world ever. 1500s pre home doesn't mean much when you're stuck in the low-mid 1400s on a good day nowadays. Notably, I did not see the issue with Bloodmoon, because I was stuck in low ladder and people in low ladder were not using it in a way that made it hard to deal with very often, which definitely skewed my viewpoint and I'll readily admit that. But I think I'm reasonably qualified, with my good amount of experience in Gen 7 OU (not the greatest there either), to say that Gliscor probably isn't banworthy with a reasonable amount of hazard removal available to be used in whichever tier it is present in.
Regarding this, in a recent game I once again performed the "Grassy Terrain Sneasler Shuffle", getting Sneasler in for free against Gliscor in grassy terrain (in this case they tried to toxic my Rillaboom but the idea of switching on a protect stands regardless) and clicking SD twice because Grassy Terrain is stupid. Gliscor can be easy to exploit, but the big problem with this idea is positioning. Against a good player and not a fellow 1300s pleb, this move likely would not have worked. To reiterate: Gliscor is good at what it does, but once you know the set it's also relatively easy to exploit with the right team comp. (Yes the person in this example had a Gholdengo, but it didn't matter because Night Slash is better than Dire Claw on Seedler to not get walled by exactly Gholdengo. Seedler cannot single handedly break stall, don't put dire claw on it to try and hax through stall, it likely wont work.)
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we're not still sorting it out, we all know what generally is and isn't broken. the process just takes way too long to balance a temporary meta like this one
Yeah and the exact reason why we should free chi-yu is cause it's ONLY liable for Mass Destruction and Mass murder (maybe a teeny weeny bit of arson), unlike it's companion Chien-Pao who has like 17 war crime accusations
AV fairy tran walls bro trust me!!! Here lemme post the calc-
252 SpA Kilowattrel Tera (Ice) Blast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 376-444 (106.8 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Might work, but Idk, it's a RU Pokémon and even if a tier doesn't really say the true potential of a mon, it still has some flaws. 125 of speed is good, since outspeeds and threaten the KO with Wogerpon if she doesn't Tera, but at the same time, seeing the speed creep and booster energy users would be just forced to switch out and players can use this to do mind games in which they could attack or boost, and overall it's really frail with 70/60/60 bulk, 105 of special attack is alright I would say but with the powercreep it's easily laughed off.
Zapdos is more tankier and has +20 points of special attack, but 100 of speed which nowadays just the standard and not something of incredible as the first gens, might be wrong with the last one but still, a thing sure is all these mons are surely a fever dream.
But overall, it's your decision if running one of them or not.
The fact that Hidden Power Ice is no longer a thing, and also not one of the most widespread coverage moves in the game? But Idk man maybe I'm tripping or somethin'
Boltbeam has never ever been bad, but this being said, Zapdos using tera ice would SUCK because Zapdos is a defensive pokemon even when using offensive sets. Thund-T, though still quite bad in my opinion due to the speed tier, is the only Flying/Electric type that makes tera ice works. (STOP RUNNING HP FLYING ON THUND T IN GEN 7, HP ICE IS BETTER). In my opinion, if you want to use a fast offensive electric type for bolt beam coverage, specs Jolteon or speed energy Sandy Shocks is the way to go. (Jolteon sucks do not use it)
i like to think of the vr as the extent of what mons you can reasonably expect to see in tours or on mid-high ladder, so I consider ou as a meta to have 98 mons even though ou as a tier has 35. it's a lot more diverse than the statistics show
Boltbeam has never been bad, but it is very difficult to fit onto a set this gen. What has 70+ BP boltbeam coverage this gen? Mew and Conkeldurr I think. :/ Tera ice kinda fixes this but commiting a tera is a big deal so it has to be very efficient.
Other people have said it and yeah, I agree that ice sucking defensively would for sure make Zapdos kinda shit even considering its access to recovery. I can see the small kilo birb working though with the superior speed making fast pivots. Sandy shocks is also an idea but my issue with it is that booster energy variants are kinda hit or miss (if Gliscor switches out on a safe wall you're kinda boned bc you lose BE). Thundurus and Kilo can come in repeatedly with HDB, and even if they get knocked they still got immunity to spikes and EQ pre-tera. They can get toxicd switching in but that's as good as we can get with Gliscor until it gets sent to the farm upstate to play with Bax and Moon lol
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