Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - The Killing Moon

[Bakugames]

It keeps coming up because this argument hinges on forcing everyone to compartmentalize Tera when many in the community either cannot or will not do that. Functionally, base Bloodmoon and Tera Poison / Water / Fightin Bloodmoon are different mons. They have different counterplay, different typing, and different STABs.

Whether you cannot or will not is more so your issue than something an unrelated suspect test needs to address. Suspect tests are about whatever metagame we're playing, even if you don't like it or can't really play it.

A 59% pro-ban majority should not be taken lightly. Let’s refrain from calling 41% of the player base a “silent majority.” That is not any kind of majority. Just because something falls short of ban by razor thin margin of a supermajority does not mean most people think it is “okay.” The contrary. Last suspect Kingambit is now at 50% usage despite 55% of qualified voters deeming it broken. And people wonder why this tier is a mess.

correction: 59% pro action, which is very different. Banning wasnt even the most popular choice if pro action had won, and it did not have the majority vs no action, which had to fight vs multiple options and still won.

idc about the kingambit opinions, I don't like the mon either but its just proving my point that you cant just act like things are guaranteed bans and rely on that assumption for suspect tests, only the now. Tera is legal and a part of the game now, bm is broken and tera is one of the things it abuses, bm is broken

 

[Alternator]

A 59% pro-ban majority should not be taken lightly. Let’s refrain from calling 41% of the player base a “silent majority.” That is not any kind of majority. Just because something falls short of ban by razor thin margin of a supermajority does not mean most people think it is “okay.” The contrary. Last suspect Kingambit is now at 50% usage despite 55% of qualified voters deeming it broken. And people wonder why this tier is a mess.

We didn't have one. We had a 59% "do something" majority, where that something would have been Tera preview. Full ban was around 10%, if memory serves.

 

[RaikouLover]

Whether you cannot or will not is more so your issue than something an unrelated suspect test needs to address. Suspect tests are about whatever metagame we're playing, even if you don't like it or can't really play it.

Tone deafness or deliberate obfuscation? We’re going to keep getting those “X is not broken, Tera is broken” posts as long as Tera hangs out there with 65% action sentiment. You can say it is unrelated, but it’s clearly not, given the frequency of these posts.

We didn't have one. We had a 59% "do something" majority, where that something would have been Tera preview. Full ban was around 10%, if memory serves.

Semantics at this point. There is no “Tera is okay” majority. Never was. Not even close.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

How many mons we going to ban because of this nonsensical mechanic?

as many as we need to until the meta is balanced enough to get the most objective possible assessment of skill during the tera suspect. remember, chi-yu, cyclizar, annihilape, and chien-pao were all legal during the previous suspect and it failed by a very small margin; it wouldn't be unreasonable to blame the lack of balance for the result. anyone who wants any action on tera should be supporting as much tiering action as possible beforehand

Semantics at this point. There is no “Tera is okay” majority. Never was. Not even close.

ok, never mind, you're just capping now. the vast majority of yes-action voters considered tera preview to be a better option than a full ban, meaning that they did consider tera ok with only a slight adjustment to take most of the guesswork out of the equation

 

[RaikouLover]

ok, never mind, you're just capping now. the vast majority of yes-action voters considered tera preview to be a better option than a full ban, meaning that they did consider tera ok with only a slight adjustment to take most of the guesswork out of the equation

Changing the mechanic to make it palatable = “okay” ?

I am not the one capping.

 

[sims796]

It was said time and again that keeping tera would result in a wave of bans to keep the tier together. Tera stays. A wave of bans ensues. So many a shocked Pikachu.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Changing the mechanic to make it palatable = “okay” ?

almost every other competitive game has buffs and nerfs, dude. why are we so afraid of them?

 

[Alternator]

Tone deafness or deliberate obfuscation? We’re going to keep getting those “X is not broken, Tera is broken” posts as long as Tera hangs out there with 65% action sentiment. You can say it is unrelated, but it’s clearly not, given the frequency of these posts.



Semantics at this point. There is no “Tera is okay” majority. Never was. Not even close.

90% "Do Not Ban" majority.

 

[RaikouLover]

almost every other competitive game has buffs and nerfs, dude. why are we so afraid of them?

Fear has nothing to do with it. It’s ironic that the task here is to evaluate Bloodmon’s viability in a compartmentalized vaccum, while pretending the other Donphan in the room has no effect on the voting behavior. Same conversations about strategic voting comes up every suspect test. It sucks if Bloodmoon is your favorite Pokémon. He’s just the next casualty.

 

[kd458]

This is being talked about as if there's some global conspiracy to keep Tera around when all the players want it gone, when I know for a fact that many top players consider it a positive influence on the metagame or simply prefer it being around (not even going to mention the fact that yes, a Tera ban was never the most popular option). The discussion being had here has zero relevance on whether Ursaluna-BM should be banned or not, and simply comes across as pro-Tera ban sentiment making disgruntled players vote in a way they know isn't correct out of protest. There has been no real argument presented as to why Ursaluna-BM isn't broken here aside from "Tera makes it broken so we should keep it unbanned and ban tera NOW!!", why is this even being discussed here aside from trying to get more attention than spamming "I hate terastallization!!!!" it in the metagame discussion thread where that belongs?

 

[Ehmcee]

Fear has nothing to do with it. It’s ironic that the task here is to evaluate Bloodmon’s viability in a compartmentalized vaccum, while pretending the other Donphan in the room has no effect on the voting behavior. Same conversations about strategic voting comes up every suspect test. It sucks if Bloodmoon is your favorite Pokémon. He’s just the next casualty.

We're not compartmentalizing Ursaluna

The suspect test is considering if Ursaluna is too strong for the metagame, considering it's ability to tera.

Old mentalities of "we need to compare every single tera type as a seperate pokemon" is untrue, this is Ursaluna-Blood Moon, a Normal/Ground Type that usually Tera's into a Normal, Poison or Fighting type. We are talking about the mon as a whole.

 

[RaikouLover]

This is being talked about as if there's some global conspiracy to keep Tera around when all the players want it gone, when I know for a fact that many top players consider it a positive influence on the metagame or simply prefer it being around (not even going to mention the fact that yes, a Tera ban was never the most popular option).

The discussion being had here has zero relevance on whether Ursaluna-BM should be banned or not,

We're not compartmentalizing Ursaluna

The suspect test is considering if Ursaluna is too strong for the metagame, considering it's ability to tera.

Old mentalities of "we need to compare every single tera type as a seperate pokemon" is untrue, this is Ursaluna-Blood Moon, a Normal/Ground Type that usually Tera's into a Normal, Poison or Fighting type. We are talking about the mon as a whole.

No, it is not being talked about as if there is a global conspiracy. That is gross mischaracterization.
Clearly some of you are not interested in actually addressing the sentiment some posters have expressed that I explained. Yes, this is the compartmentalization of the suspect pokemon. Even though that is required of suspects in this October 2023 metagame, it not mean these reactions are going anywhere. They exist.

 

[sims796]

We're not compartmentalizing Ursaluna

The suspect test is considering if Ursaluna is too strong for the metagame, considering it's ability to tera.

Old mentalities of "we need to compare every single tera type as a seperate pokemon" is untrue, this is Ursaluna-Blood Moon, a Normal/Ground Type that usually Tera's into a Normal, Poison or Fighting type. We are talking about the mon as a whole.

And sometimes ghost

 

[Bakugames]

Tone deafness or deliberate obfuscation? We’re going to keep getting those “X is not broken, Tera is broken” posts as long as Tera hangs out there with 65% action sentiment. You can say it is unrelated, but it’s clearly not, given the frequency of these posts.

well then the 65% action sentiment should either actually get something done next time or take the L and move on, wheter that means accepting the tier or playing something else they might enjoy and have more fun with, instead of trying to argue about a metagame that doesnt exist and has no guarantee of existing on an unrelated suspect test innit

 

[kd458]

Clearly some of you are not interested in actually addressing the sentiment some posters have expressed that I explained.

Like I said before, what relevance does this sentiment have to the broken-ness of the mon? I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want a different approach to Tera even if I’m personally fine with how it is now, but again how does Tera being a factor in Ursaluna-BM being broken have any relevance to whether it’s actually banworthy in the metagame we play? Ursaluna-BM will have access to Tera for the immediate future and we are voting based on that, there is no “it should stay and Tera should go” option and if Tera did get restricted in any way I’m sure a bunch of mons that are considered broken almost exclusively due to Tera (Eleki, Espathra, Volc) would return to the tier and BM would also be considered then. Am I still missing the point here? I’m not dismissing the view that Tera should be looked at, even if it’s being discussed like a change would go through upon it getting voted on when that’s not necessarily the case. I’m saying that this should have no connection to the outcome of this vote, in response to people arguing DNB from a perspective that it’d be fine without access to Tera. This is an Ursaluna-Bloodmoon suspect thread, not a Tera one.

 

[Shinto7654]

Changing the mechanic to make it palatable = “okay” ?

I am not the one capping.

Knowing what your opponents Tera types are is literally already what VGC does through its open team list setup lol. You don't need to change anything to just pull that specific part out of what it does and apply it to Smogon's specific format. It's way less egregious objectively then the fact that we use percentages as the way to determine Pokemon's health when thats just not a thing in actual Pokemon battles

 

[SetsuSetsuna]

I think its to move on. This thread is for the Bloodmoon suspect test, and the general tera discussion has only helped to derail the thread for the last 2+ pages.

Fear has nothing to do with it. It’s ironic that the task here is to evaluate Bloodmon’s viability in a compartmentalized vaccum, while pretending the other Donphan in the room has no effect on the voting behavior. Same conversations about strategic voting comes up every suspect test. It sucks if Bloodmoon is your favorite Pokémon. He’s just the next casualty.

You are free to discuss how particular teras enhance Bloodmoon by removing its key weaknesses, making it harder to revenge kill it and easier for it to set up, among other things. You are not being asked to ignore that Bloodmoon can terastallize, be a great tera abuser and choose multiple tera types. But rather, you are being asked to please dont derail this thread further into a general tera discussion.

 

[bludgeoning angel]

Tbh I did not lose a single game to bloodmoon while doing reqs, just embrace the zong already smh
Now this guy is gonna come and say "survivors fallacy" or something like that

 

[Moyashi]

Tbh I did not lose a single game to bloodmoon while doing reqs, just embrace the zong already smh
Now this guy is gonna come and say "survivors fallacy" or something like that

Bronzong is unviable no matter how much youw ant to shill for it.

 

[bludgeoning angel]

Bronzong is unviable no matter how much youw ant to shill for it.

doubters gonna doubt

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Tbh I did not lose a single game to bloodmoon while doing reqs

i know for a fact that you're lying and that you didn't even use bronzong. please don't insult our intelligence like this, and please don't bother voting if all you're going to do is abuse the privilege

 

[CreamyGlasses]

doubters gonna doubt

post replay then I'll simp for you

 

[Joseph Gomes]

All these pages and we didnt couldn't find splashable check for Blood Moon that's also very reliable. Cresselia seems to be the best answer that decently viable, as it can go into Calm Mind war thanks to decent bulk. Most of the old checks (Blissey, Sub Gliscor/Corv) all have counterplay through Body Press/Hyper Voice.

This mon has truly amazing potential to adapt to the meta.

 

[artificialdeath]

doubters gonna doubt

low quality bait, nice lelouch pfp though. arguing that BM isn't broken bc you can use zong is on the same level of logic as when he played that chess game where he repeatedly hanged his king so it's a pretty good fit

 

[Naraku Kirigiri]

Tbh I did not lose a single game to bloodmoon while doing reqs, just embrace the zong already smh
Now this guy is gonna come and say "survivors fallacy" or something like that

you know what you've convinced me im voting no ban