Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - The Killing Moon

[Finchinator]

Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Ursaluna-Bloodmoon!

Ursaring saw countless moons pass it by while it watched the cool Pokemon play from afar; it had yet to even draw its first blood as a true OU Pokemon as it peaked in UUBL during GSC and RSE. With the ninth generation of Pokemon brewing, the Ursaring line was set for its string of irrelevancy to draw itself even longer until a team of distant game designers had a thought. This thought evidently was drawn out itself as it took quite a few months, but with Pokemon HOME's release, Ursaring evolved into Ursaluna. However, their next thought made the 23 year wait for relevancy seem like forever as within a few months Ursaluna-Bloodmoon also came out with the release of DLC!

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon is one of the strongest and bulkiest Pokemon in OU; you could say the same about base Ursaluna, but for the fact that its speed, lack of true durability, typing held it back. Ursaluna-Bloodmoon has a similar speed stat, but it sports impeccable survivability and a much more fitting composition to the metagame surrounding it. Continuing the comparison between the two, many believed Ursaluna was broken initially, but as time elapsed it was determined to be held back greatly by reliance on team support and lack of durability. Meanwhile Ursaluna-Bloodmoon started out slowly as many feared it would suffer a similar fate, but proceeded to thrive as people began experimenting with its set Mix, utilizing Calm Mind, Moonlight, and Vacuum Wave rather than focusing solely on its instant breaking potential.

What makes Ursaluna-Bloodmoon suspect worthy goes far beyond its innate breaking potential, but let's start with that. Blood Moon is a signature move that gives Ursaluna-Bloodmoon a 140 BP STAB option that, coupled with Mind's Eye negating immunities and 135 base Special Attack, is one of the most spammable and strong moves ever. Spamming the move lone is not enough though as Ursaluna-Bloodmoon is quite slow and does not have the most Special Defense. However, it has adopted a common set with substantial bulk investment, Calm Mind, Moonlight, and a defensively oriented Terastallization type that has made it very challenging to stop. Calm Mind + Moonlight Ursaluna-Bloodmoon frequently requires pressure across numerous teamslots to take down, constantly taking down multiple kills along the way. Vacuum Wave gives it a a priority option that also hits Steel types like Kingambit while Earth Power offers it a secondry STAB move that can hit Rock and Steel types that resist Blood Moon. Outright offensive approaches like Silk Scarf and Choice Specs set are also plenty viable, but not necessarily what makes it worthy of a suspect.

With all of these pros in mind, there are some noteworthy cons about Ursaluna-Bloodmoon. For example, it has pitiful base 52 Speed and poor base 65 Special Defense, which is only salvaged by its superb 115 HP. Normal-Ground typing leaves it weak to the frequently used offensive typings of Fighting, Water, Ice, and Grass as well. In addition, certain Hyper Offensive teams are capable of limiting its entry and sometimes making its performance be reliant on using Terastallization to avoid super effective moves. While anyone can note Ursaluna-Bloodmoon's high ceiling, this can lead to it having a slightly lower floor than some may deem desireable. This is largely a testament to the glaring downside of its signature move Blood Moon, which is the fact that you cannot use it repeatedly; it is forced to use Moonlight, Calm Mind, or another attacking move on the turn after every Blood Moon, which can be abused by strategies like Encore or can be only minor in the event that Moonlight will be necessary regardless depnding upon the game's state.

In term of counterplay, there is admiteddly a lack of reliable defensive counterplay. Certain sets lacking Earth Power can allow for specific defensive presences to check it, but it is hard to always assume this. In addition, lacking Vacuum Wave can make revenge killing it after some chip more feasible for some options like Kingambit with Low Kick. Specific Steel types and the most durable Specially Defensive walls with a way to disrupt Moonlight + Calm Mind variants exist, but are few and far between, and they are the lone counterplay due to how Blood Moon and Mind's Eye work together. With this in mind, offensive counterplay does exist as, especially with Aurora Veil is not present, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon can be killable. Some offensive Pokemon make it reliant on Terastallization after minimal chip such as Zamazenta, offensive Great Tusk, Ogerpon-Wellspring, and Walking Wake, which can threaten it for substantial damage regardless if it has yet to set up a Calm Mind. Other Pokemon such as most strong Special Attackers Dragapult, Gholdengo, Manaphy, and others are capable of threatening it regardless of its typing, but encounter trouble if Calm Mind is used prior to their entry.

Overall, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon has become one of the staples of our metagane and many people have seen it go from containable to unreasonable within the last stretch of our shortlived post-DLC metagame. However, it has only been two weeks and a formal suspect is important to give people more time to discuss it, especially after receiving survey scores lower than we deem acceptable to be voted on as a potential quickban. Given this and everything above, we will continue to look at Ursaluna-Bloodmoo throughout this abbreviated suspect and come to a conclusion on it at the end of next week!

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test!!! The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUCK. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUCK Finch.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The suspect being tested, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will be lasting until October 6th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
  • THIS IS A SLIGHTLY SHORTER TEST THAN NORMAL (2 DAYS SHORTER THAN CHIEN-PAO IN FEBRUARY AND 3-5 DAYS SHORTER THAN NORMAL) AS WE ATTEMPT TO BALANCE THE METAGAME AFTER THE RELEASE OF DLC. PLEASE NOTE THIS WHEN PLANNING TO GET VOTING REQUIREMENTS!!!

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. You are not allowed to post about other potential suspects or bans. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Ursaluna-Bloodmoon vs other potential suspects;
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• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
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  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging Kris and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

 

[Finchinator]

Please note this thread will remain locked for 24h for people to collect their thoughts.

In addition, please note the deadline of October 6th, 2023 -- this suspect is slightly shorter than the standard suspect as we continue to work to balance our flagship metagame!

 

[Finchinator]

I will be voting ban on Ursaluna-Bloodmoon. The consistent counterplay is just not there when people use the CM Moonlight variant. It is possible to defeat through multiple Pokemon and excessive pressure when used properly, but this can be said for virtually any Pokemon. A

Before I see posts trying to scrounge up defensive counterplay with the likes of Calm Mind Cresselia, Unaware SDef Calm Mind Clefable, and Substitute + Protect Gliscor, let's remember that these are not standout Pokemon otherwise and forcing every team to rely on one of them is not a healthy mechanism for metagame development. This is the epitome of being unbalanced.

Even revenge killing it is hard with the immense bulk and Terastallization, but it can be pieced together over time and with some cost. The metagme should just not be warped to this extent and Ursaluna-Bloodmoon cannot remain in a metagame that is going to be balanced or welcoming to a wide array of playstyles.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Definitely think that there isn't counterplay but IMO I'll still be voting for DNB. I really feel like it isn't all that bad and just needs some longterm thinking if ur up against it

 

[Tree69420]

As someone who's been playing stall over the past month, the defensive counterplay short of pokemon that offer next to no utility or have much better sets that need running i.e. unaware spdef cm clefable is praying you dont get crit with CM blissey, and with the 24 PP of earth power + blood moon there is a pretty solid chance you get crit. Gonna be voting ban

 

[Roller K]

Before I see posts trying to scrounge up defensive counterplay with the likes of Calm Mind Cresselia, Unaware SDef Calm Mind Clefable, and Substitute + Protect Gliscor, let's remember that these are not standout Pokemon otherwise and forcing every team to rely on one of them is not a healthy mechanism for metagame development. This is the epitome of being unbalanced.

Adding onto this, all the aforementioned Pokemon have to pray that they don't get crit (besides unaware Clef). Even CM Blissey cannot beat Ursa a lot of the time if it has Moonlight. I've been running a team with Ursa for reqs, and it consistently puts insane pressure on the opponent no matter their playstyle. It's not unstoppable, and there are ways to handle it, but the combination of CM and Scrappy Boomburst Blood Moon on a very bulky, offensively potent Pokemon makes it too difficult to handle for many teams. I'm leaning toward ban right now

 

[Finchinator]

Definitely think that there isn't counterplay but IMO I'll still be voting for DNB. I really feel like it isn't all that bad and just needs some longterm thinking if ur up against it

I just want to point out that this post makes no sense. If it does not have counterplay, then there is no way to defeat it with "some longterm thinking" as whatever "some longterm thinking" would constitute would be the counterplay.

You would either need to elaborate as to what that actually is or you contradict yourself.

 

[kd458]

Feels like it always trades at least neutrally, nearly impossible to OHKO unboosted especially with Tera and is just as impossible to switch into. In practice, it's been somewhat underwhelming for me, though I might have just not found the right team structure for it. I enjoy the presence of strong breakers in the tier and appreciate the presence of a powerful mon that can overwhelm more defensive teams, since to me the metagame feels on the verge of sliding from too much HO to a tier dominated by defensive play, but the physical bulk of this mon and ability to patch up its bad Sp.Def as it boosts up with CM is really tough to deal with for any build; living a super effective CC from Adamant Sneasler with only max HP and OHKOing back does not feel fair on something this offensively strong that also has access to setup and reliable recovery.

I'm not totally sure what I'll be voting just yet and I'll be following what people discuss in this thread, since yeah, when using it for my own suspect run it often felt like a panic button to deploy when I needed to trade an opposing mon off the field rather than an oppressive wincon that forces my opponent to lose several mons into it (see: a certain double dance Stored Power sweeper). Still, there is definitely very limited defensive counterplay to this mon and offence also struggles at removing it from the field before it can deal some heavy damage both with and without Tera, so currently leaning towards Ban. I'm a lot more on the fence about this than Gambit though, I still think it's easier to manage than that and it's a vote I could go either way on.

 

[Roller K]

Just got voting reqs, I wrote an RMT for the team I used to climb the whole way. Bloodmoon Ursaluna behind screens is lethal, use it while you can

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

I definitely won't be getting reqs (I'm a perma-1600s HO player, ain't no way in hell I'm hitting 80 GXE] but I've been convinced that banning it's for the best. I've seen some really wack moments when watching tour sets, since there's a few mons that can be solid against HO, and the monke bear just tears apart balance. Pair something like Valiant with Nightbear and you just win some matchups.

In experience using it I've personally not been successful with it, but it usually gets a 1 for 1 trade with one of my mons... but a lot of things also do as such for me. It's getting to watch the bear do very stupid things in tournaments that I've become convinced.

let's remember that these are not standout Pokemon otherwise and forcing every team to rely on one of them is not a healthy mechanism for metagame development.

Adding onto this, all the aforementioned Pokemon have to pray that they don't get crit (besides unaware Clef).

These two summarize the problem, really; there's virtually no defensive counterplay that isn't so utterly shit for diversity, and also is so vulnerable to critical hits. It's almost comedic.

Also subtect Gliscor loses to Hyper Voice jumpscare which is funny, and is the reason that I always slot in Hyper Voice if I have a spare moveslot. Never again will I lose to that aids.



...Actually, I found the word: It's matchup fishy. Sometimes, your opponent's team will have multiple ways to deal with Cocaine Bear. Other times, your opponent has 0 ways to consistently break through SubCM, or wall a Specs set, which just isn't fun at all. I complain about how weather teams, Sneasler, and more feel like 'Oh, which one do I lose to!' but having Balance be further pressured sucks.
(I may steal that RMT above, pog)

 

[reVeez]

I like Ursuluna BM.

The nice stuff it adds:

• A surefire way to blow up kingambit with vacuum wave (it can creep gambit)
• Good matchups vs cheesy HO leads. Get to sash and kill with unblockable priority
• A nice click button breaker. Stall is pretty zzz. Try using hyper voice over earth power.

The not nice stuff:

• Impossible to wall and instant gg if you have nothing faster.
• Too fat for its power. The 1v1s get pretty silly.
• any “counterplay” it can beat. Tera whatever to not die to grass/water/fighting. Calm mind + recovery to beat any bully team. Even can go body press with its free slot to smack blissey.

I think it should be banned. Especially dumb under screens or with grassy terrain. But also…while tera and all this other silly stuff is around it does have a nice place in simultaneously disrupting the HO/Fat dichotomy of the apparent meta

Here’s a webs team if you want to cheese to rating.

https://pokepast.es/6be23bf42397b8c7

 

[Goodstyle]

This thing is weird, because it's obviously very powerful, but against many types of teams it feels really difficult to get an opportunity to start something up. While it's obviously better than regular Ursa, there are many situations where the best you get out of this thing is a trade, because it's spdf is so shockingly bad, even with that HP, and its speed is so low. For comparison regular Luna is sporting 130/80 special defences, while this thing has 113/65. Even at +1 spdf, it's taking massive damage or even dies to attacks from powerful special attackers and super effective physical attackers, which makes getting this to work as a win con not as easy as it seems. In practice, it's a lot frailer than even Guts Luna sets (that is if the opponent is pressuring enough to not let you heal up). I think a mistake a lot of people are making is giving up on attacking this guy specially even after a calm mind.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. +1 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 377-447 (91 - 107.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

The obvious counter to this is "what about tera", and that's true, tera helps this thing a lot, but not by as much as one would think in practice. Against a well put together team, Tera buys you probably 1 more kill in the trade, and it doesn't need to be said why that's not always the best deal. There's also even bulkier sets out there that forgo spA for more bulk, but those sets are much easier to switch into and identifiable after the first attack.

It should also be noted that the now extremely present encore dunks on this guy, it doesn't match up well against Ogerpon and specially defensive Gliscor, and it has to burn Tera to even guarantee a trade often times. It also has to deal with Blood Moon's shortcomings, on top of the fact that it only has 8pp and gets stalled out by Corviknight with pressure. In fact, Ursa-BM in general is highly vulnerable to Pressure stall (which I think is getting popular in part to shut down UBM) because this thing really doesn't have a way to hit ground immune pokemon for good damage and so has to rely on the low PP attack that can only hit every other turn.

A crazy matchup is that fact that you can switch in Ogerpon on a max special attack Blood Moon, live 75% of the time with uninvested defenses, and OHKO it back most of the time with Power Whip even with a bunch of HP investment on the BM's part. If he calm minded, you can encore it and get a free SD yourself (that is if it's not running VW).

252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 265-313 (88 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 380-450 (91.7 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Obviously, hazards change this equation, but what I'm trying to illustrate is that even a somewhat frail pokemon with uninvested defenses can often survive Blood Moon if the UBM isn't running a Silk Scarf or Life Orb, which cuts down on its survivability (many aren't even running max special attack anymore, which makes this vulnerability worse). Because of its poor typing and weak special defenses, and the fact that it's extremely slow, it sometimes has to either settle for doing negligible damage to the opposing team or burning tera to keep it going, which obviously comes at great cost, because unlike other tera endgame pokemon, it remains more fragile post terastilization (especially in comparison to Gambit which has far stronger priority and special bulk, and Zam).

I know this thing is very strong. If it finds itself in a situation where it's against a pokemon it's both faster than, and can one shot like Torokoal, your opponent often has to pray they have Corv on their team, or a dedicated special wall that can sponge a hit and disrupt the sweep (like tera grass Toxapex, who doesn't need to tera if the UBM isn't running earth power, which many aren't these days).

Bloodmoon-Ursaluna is the kind of threat you have to get yourself in position for to win a game against good players, and even if you do, there's a lot of things that can go wrong with each kind of team. Offensive teams make it difficult to get anything going, balance teams often have encore users, or weird regenerator based cores, and stall teams can outright pp-stall this thing or outmaneuver it.

I will vote DNB, because similar to Zamzenta it's somewhat inflexible. Although a smaller pool of Pokemon shut it down outright, in comparison it's a much less reliable win-con and often ends up trading or being forced to burn a tera to trade on favourible terms due to its poor typing, speed, and special defense.

 

[Finchinator]

I think a mistake a lot of people are making is giving up on attacking this guy specially even after a calm mind.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. +1 188 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 377-447 (91 - 107.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

How’re you getting Greninja in? It can’t switch in safely, so you have to fodder. Why is your first example an 80% super effective base 120 power STAB move? This shows it ends up alive well over half of the time. What about Tera? It’s a common user of it due to many special attackers it encounters, giving it free kills like this could be.

Against a well put together team, Tera buys you probably 1 more kill in the trade, and it doesn't need to be said why that's not always the best deal.

In this seemingly random Greninja example, which does more to disprove your point than prove it, you’re digging a deeper hole here. If it Teras, then Bloodmoon can continue to CM and Moonlight to the point that it will sweep and not just get one more kill as actually killing it with these conditions is so challenging. That’s the point.

it doesn't match up well against Ogerpon and specially defensive Gliscor

Tera Poison soaks EQs for under 40% and destroys Gliscor while standard easily beats it 1v1 if you CM on the switch, and that’s not even mentioning offensive or Tera Normal variants. If you think anything besides the rare and generally lackluster Sub Gliscor is a reliable measure against Bloodmoon, I think you’re wrong.

A crazy matchup is that fact that you can switch in Ogerpon on a max special attack Blood Moon, live 75% of the time with uninvested defenses, and OHKO it back most of the time with Power Whip even with a bunch of HP investment on the BM's part. If he calm minded, you can encore it and get a free SD yourself (that is if it's not running VW).

252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 265-313 (88 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 380-450 (91.7 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

They almost always run physical bulk (and sometimes even some special bulk). As prior posts and the OP indicate, the all-out-attacking variants are hardly the focus here. Bulky CM Moonlight sets are, and they comfortably 2HKO while avoiding the OHKO. Ogerpon should 1v1, but only if Bloodmoon does not Tera and it’s inability to switchin multiple times doesn’t make it particularly reliable here.

your opponent often has to pray they have Corv on their team

Corv is quite literally setup fodder and anyone claiming for it to be a reliable answer is misguided.

To put it bluntly, this post misses the marks at points and proves the opposite of what you’re intending at other points.

 

[Ibaragi]

252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 265-313 (88 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 380-450 (91.7 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

So basically, you're praying that they don't have Vacuum Wave to not die on the spot? Not my definition of counterplay.

Corv is quite literally setup fodder and anyone claiming for it to be a reliable answer is misguided.

+2 8 Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 206-244 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 206-243 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO recovery
(Assumed switchinh in Corv, Ursa CMs that turn, then CMs again thinking Corv has nothing to do against it while Corv goes ID)

You need to run ID+BP on a Specially Defensive set and for the opponent to not Tera, and many things can still go wrong like getting Earth Power while Roosting. But it still handles the match up relatively well.
It's a reliable answer without Tera, and definitely not just setup fodder... although having to run this particular set just to answer Ursa and EVEN THEN losing to a Poison-Tera or something is not a good argument to defend Ursa (nor was my intention; just pointing that Corv works better than just "setup fodder").



As for Ursa itself, the biggest problem is that it's a mon that causes a trade at worst, takes half the opposing team's resources to take down on bulkier/balance/stall-like teams and can be a one-mon win-con on some match ups at best. It's floor is the bare minimum to make it a splashable mon that only struggles against the most aggressive playstyles, its average is a 3 for 1 and it's ceiling is... the usual obvious-broken-mon shenanigans.
Like, the only way for this mon to not force a trade is for the opponent to already have a boosted mon (+2 Atk or +1 SPA) on the field with a supereffective move, and even that can be worked around with screens or Tera or both (both might start a reverse sweep, even).
My biggest issue in dealing with this mon that makes me lean towards banning is that it's a "you're lost by the time you deal with it" kind of mon. Even when you have the tools to get rid of it, it so easily takes so much effort and resources in most teams that it leaves you out of steam and options to deal with the rest of the opponent's team. It's not so dangerous (IMO) when built as a win-con that you prepare to win the game with, but simply a mon that forces your opponent to put themselves in a losing position to not die to Ursa directly.

Unsure if I'll try to get reqs (even less sure that I'd get them if I tried), but I'm leaning towards BAN. I think it's closer to being "allowable" in OU than previous broken mons and may see a day when it's fine, but that day is not today.

 

[WildWave]

I just want to point out that this post makes no sense. If it does not have counterplay, then there is no way to defeat it with "some longterm thinking" as whatever "some longterm thinking" would constitute would be the counterplay.

You would either need to elaborate as to what that actually is or you contradict yourself.

Basically what he’s trying to say, is that he wants chaos!

 

[artificialdeath]

Played about 10 games so far, and even if like 5 of them were against "FULL ASH KETCHUM TEAM" level teams, ive already seen how ridiculously hard BM hits. There are almost no switch ins to it, and the ones that do exist get worn down by CM + Moonlight over time. While it is slow, it's surprisingly bulky, and there are ways to either make it faster or bulkier (Webs which are now good, Screens which are even better now, Grassy Terrain, even gimmicky TR stuff). This isn't even mentioning Vacuum Wave either, which helps protect it against RK attempts from certain mons. So far I'm heavily leaning towards BAN

 

[VigilanteV8]

I was unsure about what to do with but, after getting the requirements, I'm confident that banning it is the best thing for the meta. I think that the factors that make Ursaluna this strong are the following:

-Stats: It has effectively box art legendary stats considering the low attack. Now this alone doesn't necessarily mean anything (zamazenta still chilling in OU) but it's already a great start for Ursa. Sadly, as I just said, it is just the start.

-Bloodmoon: It is an insanely strong signature. Arguably one of the best moves ever. This impacts not only its wallbraking capabilities but also its defensive ones. Having a STAB as insane as bloodmoon gives Ursaluna the possibility to invest alot of EVs in HP and decences and still be very threatening.

-ORB: this is what, in my opinion, pushes ursaluna over the edge. Being able to bypass ghost immunity with normal and fighting moves make the previously mentioned Bloodmoon literally uncounterable without protect. As if this wasn't enough ursaluna has access to vacum wave. This is an incredibly useful tool paired with the capabilities provided by the ORB. Being able to hit gholdengo, Kingambit and Roaring moon super effectively with a priority that is not immuned by anything is huge. In countless occasions I have saved the day thanks to vacum wave finishes.

-Longevity: this is the last notable strength of Ursaluna. Just like the regular Mud Ursaluna Bloodmoon Ursaluna has no counters. This alone does not mean much, matter of fact Ursaluna Mud form is UUBL. This is due to its extremely poor longevity caused by reliance on contact moves and flame orb. Ursaluna bloodmoon is the exact opposite. Not only it can run lefties over flame orb (giving it effectively 12% more health every turn compared to regular Mud Ursaluna) but it is also special, meaning that it doesn't have to touch rocky helemets or rough skinned chomps. Then you have Moonlight that makes Ursaluna incredibly hard to kill after a couple of calm minds.

This 4 strength points make ursaluna defensive sets incredibly hard to deal with. I was using a tera poison calm mind full phys bulk ursaluna to get the reqs and it was really hard to deal with it for my opponents. That thing literally walls gliscor, earthquakes do like 35%. I will therefore vote for BAN.

ps: didn't really mentioned it but like Ibaragi said Ursa, at worst, causes a trade. I had a game with a great tusk that I had to take out and Bulky Ursaluna is not getting ko'ed by CC. Just switched it in on a predicted knock and then it hate the CC bloodmooning the soul out of that poor Weak Tusk (weak compared to Ursa). I mean a mon that can eat a super effective close combat from Tusk and KO back is insane.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Voting NB on principle. This thing is not QB worthy, yet it only had 2 weeks for the meta to adapt to it. This is another Walking Wake fiasco and we're putting too much emphasis on a kneejerk reaction survey. If we put this much emphasis on other survey results then things would be a lot different. This is not Bax or Ogerpon, aka not QB worthy, and needs another month or so for the meta to adapt. Is it broken, maybe, but we literally don't have enough data. Great mons seem broken sometimes, but then we adapt. This is yet another poorly timed suspect.

Secondly, this thing is not more broken than Melmetal in gen 8. That mon also took several mons to take down and barely had switch ins. It was also slow, but had a better typing, and a move that often flinched anything slower. It could set up ID w Rest and become an insane wincon, or toxic + protect, or CB (good luck finding a safe switch in not named Ferro), and a few other sets that were also great like T-wave. Vacuum wave is nice, but its 40bp that's not coming off STAB. I'm not pointing fingers, but if certain ppl had their way when Walking Wake dropped then we wouldn't have that mon and all it adds to the meta. Many of those who were crying for Wake ban, or Ursa ban, or Roaring Moon ban, call them mid now lol. Keep that same energy. Realize that it's simply too soon to make the most informed decision.

Is Boon broken, probably, most likely. Can we know that for certain after 2 weeks, before another wave of DLC, and on a volatile ladder that still has the other broken Ogers and Gambit? I don't really think so, and it doesn't seem fair to us or the mon. If we can play around Gambit for the better part of a year, then we can give Boon until DLC2. Options like Protect or Sub haven't been explored, same with Encore. If bulky cm is its premier set, then wouldn't any sort of taunt, encore, protect, sub basically handle it? Why are we not abusing the mechanic of its signature? We haven't had enough time to know forsure if consistent counterplay exists.

I'm not touching tera, because that's why defensive teras exist. Any argument for being unable to handle a mon that teras can be countered by pointing out that it's a two way street, or so we've been told. Skill issue and whatnot, obviously.

Besides the mons that handle it like Wake, Gren, Moth, Azu, Basc, Gold, Val, Pult etc. we haven't had time to explore things like Spd Lando w Grass Knot, Protect/Sub Rotom W, Tera Grass Tran w protect that forces a bold prediction and always 1v1s Boon. Also, Boon counters itself, which is funny. The list could grow, but it needs time. Even if it's a short list of checks and counters, welcome to SV! That describes half the mons in our meta. We have been dealing with mons that have no safe switch ins for years, now more than ever. Anyway, enough theory, let's see what happens when we give this mon some breathing room. Again, if we can find counterplay to mons that are more broken than this, aka Gambit, then this mon deserves more than 23 days in.

 

[Finchinator]

This is another Walking Wake fiasco and we're putting too much emphasis on a kneejerk reaction survey.

I just want to point out that this is just blatantly false. There wasn’t a survey with Walking Wake at all and it was less than a week, but there were multiple with this and pages of forum discussion.

Also, your post is a walking contradiction…

This is yet another poorly timed suspect.

Is Boon broken, probably, most likely.

If there’s any “probably” or discussion, a suspect is meant to give people a window to decide that.

Secondly, this thing is not more broken than Melmetal in gen 8.

Is Boon broken, probably, most likely.

Aside from the fact that this comparison is awful and you haven’t actually stated a single counter to Bloodmoon, Melm wasn’t close to being banned last generation, so something here doesn’t check out at all.

Besides the mons that handle it like Wake, Gren, Moth, Azu, Basc, Gold, Val, Pult etc. we haven't had time to explore things like Spd Lando w Grass Knot, Protect/Sub Rotom W, Tera Grass Tran w protect that forces a bold prediction and always 1v1s Boon.

Bold of you to not lose a single switchin LMAO

 

[LoseToRU?]

I just want to point out that this is just blatantly false. There wasn’t a survey with Walking Wake at all and it was less than a week, but there were multiple with this and pages of forum discussion.

Also, your post is a walking contradiction…


If there’s any “probably” or discussion, a suspect is meant to give people a window to decide that.


Aside from the fact that this comparison is awful and you haven’t actually stated a single counter to Bloodmoon, Melm wasn’t close to being banned last generation, so something here doesn’t check out at all.

Bold of you to not lose a single switchin LMAO

1) Why did we have the WW suspect so soon, and where is the mon at now? It did not deserve a suspect so soon, yet you spearheaded one like the mon was S+++ tier. It was ill formed and poorly timed, based off subjective reasoning and guesswork. You said most of this same stuff about Wake, literally. Wake and Gambit were both mishandled, as is this suspect. I mean no offense, but that's just what happened.

2) We don't need to have a suspect to have a window of time and discussion lol. It simply needs time, so that when we do have a suspect, we have all the data. The mon needs more time in the oven before we know what it really tastes like.

3) I listed several checks Finch. We don't have pure counters for a large amount of mons, especially when you factor in tera. This is a meta defined by checking mons, not hard countering them. I'm sure there are some niche hard counters, like how encore Nite handles Gambit. But how long did it take for that set to arise? You seeing my point, tier leader?

4) Bold of you to assume matches happen on paper lol. They're called doubles. Or, worst case scenario, a mon is sacked. It's SV w tera dude, it is what it is, we have a high power meta where most of our A and S tiers don't have pure counters. Idk why I'm the one who has to explain this to you.

5) All that said, right now the mon seems on the border of OP, but on tiering principle, I can't honestly say I have enough info to remove it from the tier. You can agree to disagree. If we had this suspect at a proper time, just like with Gambit, then maybe we could secure a ban.

King, as much fun as it seems like you're having, can you post those survey results from 7 days ago. Curious about those fun/balance scores. Thank you in advance.

 

[Finchinator]

1) Why did we have the WW suspect so soon, and where is the mon at now? It did not deserve a suspect so soon, yet you spearheaded one like the mon was S+++ tier. It was ill formed and poorly timed, based off subjective reasoning and guesswork. You said most of this same stuff about Wake, literally. Wake and Gambit were both mishandled, as is this suspect. I mean no offense, but that's just what happened.

Wake was rushed and I will be the first person to say this — as I have multiple other times, but Gambit was handled in accordance directly with community survey responses and this is a Pokemon that’s pretty clearly busted. Perhaps don’t draw false equivalencies.

3) I listed several checks Finch.

You listed 0 switchins.

King, as much fun as it seems like you're having, can you post those survey results from 7 days ago. Curious about those fun/balance scores. Thank you in advance.

Ok, back off actually.

You have this cycle of being a rude poster and then doubling down only to realize you’re in the wrong and going back and I am so sick of it.

I’ve posted dozens of times during the last week and been more involved than ever despite already being super active, but asking me to do anything beyond what’s already done is ridiculous.

Last week(end) I ran/finished the biggest tournament article of the year in the SCL Power Ranks that was practically a full-time job itself, got up the second survey, handled the before and after work for two votes and bans, and spent five hours on stream for Charity Bowl Sunday. This week, despite working full time, I got up one of our biggest radars ever, posted dozens of times in discussion, got the opinion of my council multiple times over, and got up this suspect all between Monday and Wednesday. Yesterday I had a busy IRL day as I worked 10 hours and today is my birthday. I will post the survey results when I have time to and when you’re less of a jackass.

Stop posting and engage in some self-reflection.

 

[Schmerbert]

As a stall enjoyer: bm-ursa does nothing. It never breaks through blissey and it's a good mon to have anyways, as it walls other important threats (like almost all gholdengo sets). Well uhhh maybe it crits 2 times in a row, but every Mon would be broken then.

There are so many HO threats that 2HKO almost everything that isn't some niche pick or stall. Not being able to switch into it doesn't make it more broken than a lot of the meta right now.

Also it doesn't seem to me like the meta is warping around it in any way whatsoever.

As someone who hasn't used it yet but sees it a lot on ladder - i would vote no ban (but probably not getting reqs :()

 

[Goodstyle]

So basically, you're praying that they don't have Vacuum Wave to not die on the spot? Not my definition of counterplay.

Part of my thinking is this thing loses a lot by running vacuum wave. Without EP, it gets stalled out by things like specially defensive Toxapex with haze and loses the ability to EVER break through Blissey. Btw, in that Corv build's defense, it also beats Gambit, so it's not like it won't be useful for things outside the UBM matchup.

How’re you getting Greninja in? It can’t switch in safely, so you have to fodder. Why is your first example an 80% super effective base 120 power STAB move? This shows it ends up alive well over half of the time. What about Tera? It’s a common user of it due to many special attackers it encounters, giving it free kills like this could be.

In this seemingly random Greninja example, which does more to disprove your point than prove it, you’re digging a deeper hole here. If it Teras, then Bloodmoon can continue to CM and Moonlight to the point that it will sweep and not just get one more kill as actually killing it with these conditions is so challenging. That’s the point.

Part of my argument is there are a lot of ways to get this thing down low enough to where it can be easily revenge killed. For one thing, both its base form, and its most popular tera options get mauled by Great Tusk's STABs. In practice, even on the high ladder where I was forced to scrounge to get reqs, the UBM players had to do guess work to get this thing to do its job. Just anecdotally, which I know isn't representative for everyone, I played 66 games and lost 14 of them. Not one of those losses came from any BM set. Ogerpon and Zam proved to be much harder to deal with mons in this meta, wheras Bloodmoon has to deal with the fact that it must Tera just to compete against the most prominent threats in the tier, only to be revenge killed by what is still a highly used Great Tusk or other powerful ground types or fighting types (in case it tera normals).

I didn't even have to build specifically to stop this thing. I'd swap in Toxapex on either the Blood Moon or Calm Mind. If this thing BM'd, I'd switch in Zapdos and click Hurricane on either the Earthpower or Calm mind. If it EP'd I'd kill it in one hit with Hurricane, if it Calm minded Hurricane would put it near death and we'd end up with a trade situation. If this thing didn't have EP at all, it couldn't break my haze special defense Pex. If it doesn't have EP and Vacuum Wave instead, then revenge killing it becomes a lot easier. The scenario where the UBM was best served is when it calm minds on my switch in to Pex, but even then it's not game over since I can take even a +1 EP and haze it, you're in a bad position but the opponent still has to make more reads to win. The set up variants also lose to breakers, including ironically, all out attacking Blood Moons. At +1 and Tera Poison, this thing dies to a rival max spA earth powers in one hit. The fact that as you mentioned it, a lot of these things are forgoing attack for more bulk makes special walls even better against it. Without sufficient special attack, this thing won't even one shot Galarian Slowkings coming in to Chilly reception an answer, or Future Sight/Psychic, moves that will wreck this thing if it Tera poisons even at +1.

I know this sounds kind of dodgy, but in practice, I don't think this is making enough waves to justify a ban. It's a flawed but good breaker and a pretty great win con mon in a tier where it has to compete with both Zam and Gambit, who I think are both better at the job because they don't get revenge killed as easily. There's a popular team out with both Zam and UBM as win cons, and the guy who made it acknowledges that most of the time it's the Zam that gets the job done. I think given time, with a bit more team consideration in deal with this thing (more people running things like ground immune pokemon with substitute and pokemon with encore), it'll be less of a problem (not that it's currently making big waves on the ladder right now).

 

[ayevon]

I didn't even have to build specifically to stop this thing. I'd swap in Toxapex on either the Blood Moon or Calm Mind. If this thing BM'd, I'd switch in Zapdos and click Hurricane on either the Earthpower or Calm mind. If it EP'd I'd kill it in one hit with Hurricane, if it Calm minded Hurricane would put it near death and we'd end up with a trade situation. If this thing didn't have EP at all, it couldn't break my haze special defense Pex. If it doesn't have EP and Vacuum Wave instead, then revenge killing it becomes a lot easier. The scenario where the UBM was best served is when it calm minds on my switch in to Pex, but even then it's not game over since I can take even a +1 EP and haze it, you're in a bad position but the opponent still has to make more reads to win. The set up variants also lose to breakers, including ironically, all out attacking Blood Moons. At +1 and Tera Poison, this thing dies to a rival max spA earth powers in one hit. The fact that as you mentioned it, a lot of these things are forgoing attack for more bulk makes special walls even better against it. Without sufficient special attack, this thing won't even one shot Galarian Slowkings coming in to Chilly reception an answer, or Future Sight/Psychic, moves that will wreck this thing if it Tera poisons even at +1.

I can barely even tell what you're describing here but this roundabout switching nonsense doesn't work vs any competent player. Hurricane doesn't even come close to killing bulky BM and you're likely getting zapdos in with it having +1 spdef. 0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 132 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 169-201 (39.3 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Like what are we even talking about here lmao

 

[LoseToRU?]

post elo

Cringe elo shaming. It's ladder dude lmao. Regardless, I've peaked ladder in the past 3 gens at least once. It doesn't really matter if I'm a barely above average casual or literally ass to make a point about poor decisions for the tier.

Just want to bring a random post to your attention:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-3-sleepwalking.3717388/#post-9532605

This post is Finch saying how broken Wake is. 22 Like/Love reactions. Dead wrong opinion.
Goofy hater comments from sycophants and laugh ratios don't phase me whatsoever on this site, and often says more about you than it does me.
There are posts on that thread where I'm saying how Wake isn't broken, how the suspect is way too soon, and our tier leader laugh reacts it, prompting dudes like you to follow and also laugh react lol.

Idk man, the kid is just a guy. We all make mistakes. Testing something like this where it might pass because it hasn't been given enough time is poor tiering policy. Same with testing far too late, like Gambit. The fact that DLC was around the corner gave Gambit the edge it needed to pass. If we suspected it 2 months ago it was gone.

Wake was rushed and I will be the first person to say this — as I have multiple other times, but Gambit was handled in accordance directly with community survey responses and this is a Pokemon that’s pretty clearly busted. Perhaps don’t draw false equivalencies.

You listed 0 switchins.

Ok, back off actually.

You have this cycle of being a rude poster and then doubling down only to realize you’re in the wrong and going back and I am so sick of it.

I’ve posted dozens of times during the last week and been more involved than ever despite already being super active, but asking me to do anything beyond what’s already done is ridiculous.

Last week(end) I ran/finished the biggest tournament article of the year in the SCL Power Ranks that was practically a full-time job itself, got up the second survey, handled the before and after work for two votes and bans, and spent five hours on stream for Charity Bowl Sunday. This week, despite working full time, I got up one of our biggest radars ever, posted dozens of times in discussion, got the opinion of my council multiple times over, and got up this suspect all between Monday and Wednesday. Yesterday I had a busy IRL day as I worked 10 hours and today is my birthday. I will post the survey results when I have time to and when you’re less of a jackass.

Stop posting and engage in some self-reflection.

So you admit you can rush a suspect and handle it poorly. We knew that already. I'm asking why. I'm asking you to do some self-reflecting and engage the possibility the you are making the same exact error. I ask why to put you in the same mindset you were when you thought Wake was an Uber... because it seems to be happening again. Another knee jerk, premature suspect.

List a switch in to Specs Tera Fairy Val, or +2 fallen 5 Kotow, etc. Blissey comes in cleanly, Clod can tera, Gking can tera, Pex can tera.
You know what else has almost no switch ins besides dedicated spd walls? Wake in Sun. Are we handling that just fine? Yeah. And Wake can use Hydro Steam twice in a row.

I have a history of going too hard, then feeling bad about it. But rarely have I been proven dead wrong. It's more so how I go about it than the actual point. You've even said this.
This is less about the mon and more about how needlessly fast this suspect was laid out. We have DLC2 around the corner. There was nothing wrong with giving this mon more time.

You took on this role. If you don't have the bandwidth for it then I'm not sure how I'm supposed to respond to that. Maybe delegate some tasks. You do have a council to support you. Maybe it all being put on you is how we get Wake suspects and this one. Not sure.
I've said many times I respect your efforts and love all the time and energy you put into the tier. You don't need to take my critiques as hateful. But yeah, it's too late now. The suspect is up and it is what it is. If the mon gets banned that's fine. I'm just saying, personally, I can't form a proper opinion given this little amount of time. That's all I wanted to say. No need for a response. Happy birthday dude.