np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[alexwolf]

Then make the opposite case.

that's what i am doing!

+3 Energy Ball has 200 base power.
+2 Fire Blast has 240 base power.
+3 Hidden Power has 175 base power.
+2 Aura Sphere has 180 base power.

Those are pretty much the best two coverage moves that each one gets. If you notice, Mew's are stronger. Your "omg +3 is stoopid" argument doesn't hold up.

Although I will concede that Water STAB > Psychic STAB. On the other hand, Mew can use Psycho Shock to go pseudo-mixed.

ok if you want it so analyzed let's do it:
mew's moveset according to you will be fire blast,aura sphere and psycho shock!so let's see
+2 fire blast has 240 base power
+3 ice beam has 237,5 base power and better accuracy

+2 aura sphere has 180 base power
+3 energy ball has 200 power

and of course

+2 psycho shock has 170 base power
+3 surf has has 237,5 base power

so i think it is obvious which poke has more power!and i also like the fact that whhen you made the comparisons you compared the moves that suited you best not the strongers with the strongers and the weaker with the weakers like you should...also i dont really know why you calculated hp on manaphy but the usual set is energy ball,ice beam and surf so...

Mew being better than Manaphy in a Drizzle-less environment does not mean that "Mew would be used more". It just means that Manaphy would be used less. You can't say that Manaphy would be used more, because it hasn't been in a Drizzle-less OU yet. Mew being in UU has absolutely nothing to do with my reasoning. I'm saying it's better than Manaphy, not good enough for OU. Your discreditation failed, try again next time.

of 'course it means a lot!what you are saying is that if drizzle was gone and manphy came in ou,mew would outclass him as a pure special sweeper!
abd then i say to you that mew is not even close to how good of a sweeper is,first because of all the above calcs and the fact that water stab and typing is 100 times better than psychic...
after this i say to you that if mew was such a good special sweeper then it would be used more which is not the case(unless you are implying that manaphy is not a good special sweeper).
if manpahy gets in ou without drizzle i easily expect him to be at the top 30(and i believe that anyone will agree with me).so considering the fact that mew is not anywhere near the top 30 proves even more the fact that i am trying to show you!

Manaphy would only be using CM if it wants to go the Bulky Booster route. Mew has recovery, making it arguably better in that role. Once again, Manaphy's only advantage is its superior typing.
And yes, CM sets probably are irrelevant.

anyway i am not going to discuss this since it is completely irrelevant!

Yes, Manaphy is better at offense than Jirachi. But things like Mew are better at offense than Manaphy. So one Pokemon may not be better than Manaphy at everything, but something is at any given role.

I'd just like to say that I am not trying to talk about "how great Mew or Jirachi is". They were used for the sole purpose of being examples, because they have the same stats as Mew. Really, any Pokemon with similar stats would work as well.

ok!

It's not that ridiculous! Show me why it is ridiculous, because so far all of your points have fallen down under real examination! I'll admit it's ridiculous when you can make a good argument for why it is.

i already did!i showed you that manaphy has more power and better typing!that means that it outclasses mew as a dedicated special sweeper!

I'll repeat myself here, I'm not trying to portray Mew or any Pokemon as being an incredible sweeper in OU. I'm just drawing a comparison to Manaphy.

again i showed you that your comparison,while hadding valid subjects for comparison,was wrong in its facts...manaphy is stronger than mew not the other way around!

In Round 2, Manaphy could abuse CM by healing itself fully in a single turn. Without instant recovery, Manaphy would be worn down much too quickly for it to be as effective as in Round 2.
Of course, that would only change if Drizzle goes.

that's all i had to say!

 

[Nkululeko]

I love how we all ignored the two posts centered on previous bans.

People, stop beating the dead horse. Its already been decided that if something gets banned its staying that way for a long, long time. it doesnt matter if you dont agree with Blazekin or Swift Swim, they're gone, and wont be coming back.


EDIT: Damn, cco ninja (also damn no auto-refresh)

Unless Drizzle gets banned, then the proposal would be pointless

 

[SlimMan]

that's what i am doing!

But... you weren't before... oh w/e.

ok if you want it so analyzed let's do it:
mew's moveset according to you will be fire blast,aura sphere and psycho shock!so let's see
+2 fire blast has 240 base power
+3 ice beam has 237,5 base power and better accuracy

+2 aura sphere has 180 base power
+3 energy ball has 200 power

and of course

+2 psycho shock has 170 base power
+3 surf has has 237,5 base power

so i think it is obvious which poke has more power!and i also like the fact that whhen you made the comparisons you compared the moves that suited you best not the strongers with the strongers and the weaker with the weakers like you should...also i dont really know why you calculated hp on manaphy but the usual set is energy ball,ice beam and surf so...

First of all, I never said Mew would be or should be using Psycho Shock. I said that it was an option.

Anyway, HP Fire is probably a better option for Manaphy than Ice Beam in this metagame. You see, without HP Fire, Ferrothorn utterly walls it. Also, HP Fire still gets an SE hit on other Grass-types, such as Whimsicott, Celebi, Virizion, etc. I'd rather kill Ferrothorn and have a slightly weaker SE hit on them, than have a slightly stronger SE hit on them and lose to Ferrothorn.
You lose to Dragons that way, but Ferrothorn has higher usage than any single Dragon. Not only that, but Dragons are generally easier to KO than Ferrothorn as well, making their removal preferable to Ferrothorn's removal.

However, I agree that Energy Ball is necessary for things like Rotom-W, Jellicent, even Starmie and the like. Otherwise, you get Toxic'ed or T-Bolt'ed to death.

And don't stack up the calcs in your favor. I could just as easily stack them in my favor. Watch:
+2 Aura Sphere: 180 vs +3 Hidden Power: 175
+2 Fire Blast: 240 vs +3 Energy Ball: 200

Manaphy has the definite advantage with STAB, but Mew will be hitting harder when the opponent brings in their check, which will actually require coverage moves. Mew is stronger vs resistances, while Manaphy can spam a stronger STAB.

of 'course it means a lot!what you are saying is that if drizzle was gone and manphy came in ou,mew would outclass him as a pure special sweeper!
abd then i say to you that mew is not even close to how good of a sweeper is,first because of all the above calcs and the fact that water stab and typing is 100 times better than psychic...

For the love of gosh, this is not about Mew!!! I don't give a damn how well Mew does!
I'm saying that Manaphy is not as good of a sweeper as other Pokemon who have similar stats. I only used Mew as an example because it has the exact same stats!

Water STAB>Psychic STAB, I've said that as well. My point was that how many Pokemon sweep by just spamming their STAB? There's CM Latias and.....
Mew is better in every instance which the STAB move is resisted. I'm not saying Mew is broken, but that Manaphy is not nearly as good without Drizzle as you make it out to be.
As a straight-up, offensive set, sweeper, Manaphy's only advantage over Mew is a much better STAB. Mew is better in everything else.

One other things, your calcs don't prove anything for two reasons:
1) You paired them up to your advantage, and I showed that I could do that just easily.
2) I still believe that HP Fire is a better coverage move for it than Ice Beam. Once you can convince me that Ice Beam is better, then I'll consider that calc.

after this i say to you that if mew was such a good special sweeper then it would be used more which is not the case(unless you are implying that manaphy is not a good special sweeper).

Do you seriously not understand what I've said multiple times?
How much Mew is used has nothing to do with this. This isn't about Mew. It's a comparison between Mew and Manaphy, and that has nothing to do with how Mew does in a Manaphy-less metagame.

Listen to me: Mew was just an example. You could replace Mew with any of about a dozen other Pokemon. I don't give a damn about Mew.

I'm not implying that Manaphy is not a good special sweeper. I could see Manaphy tearing shit up in lower tiers. I'm saying that in OU there are other things which would do Manaphy's job better.

if manpahy gets in ou without drizzle i easily expect him to be at the top 30(and i believe that anyone will agree with me).so considering the fact that mew is not anywhere near the top 30 proves even more the fact that i am trying to show you!
anyway i am not going to discuss this since it is completely irrelevant!

You have no idea that Manaphy would be in the top 30! How on earth can you say "It would be top 30; therefore, I'm right". How about I do the same:
alexwolf, Manaphy would be used less than Raticate. Mew is used more than Raticate, which proves I'm right.

^See what I did there?

This section was completely unfounded, and therefore has absolutely no business being in this argument.

However, you're right about one thing: our argument is pretty pointless.

i already did!i showed you that manaphy has more power and better typing!that means that it outclasses mew as a dedicated special sweeper!

Manaphy has more power on a single move. A move, which is the move that your opponents will be switching in resistances to.
Manaphy has the better STAB, Mew has more coverage power. STAB is important. But so is what you have to go with it.
If you insist, I'll back down and call it a tie, because I don't care one bit about Mew. I'll repeat myself again: Mew was an example. Not the basis of my argument. Why are we even arguing about Mew, instead of what Mew represents?

More power and better STAB don't always make something out-classed. zFor instance, offensive DDNite and offensive DDGyara. Nite has more Atk and better STAB, but DDGyara is not "worse" than DDNite.
Not that Manaphy does have that, but I'm sick of the repetition you're forcing me to make.

By the way, Manaphy's typing is irrelevant to this, since a dedicated special sweeper shouldn't be taking too many strong hits anyway. STAB is all that matters, not quality of defensive typing.

again i showed you that your comparison,while hadding valid subjects for comparison,was wrong in its facts...manaphy is stronger than mew not the other way around!

Um... no. Read the rest of my post, so I won't have to be a broken record, so to speak.
1) STAB vs coverage: both are important, it's our opinions which differ on this
2) Can we please stop saying Mew? Let's use another example. NP Celebi comes to mind, but I'd rather not get into another "example-war".
3) We're on the same side, which is that Manaphy is not broken without Drizzle. Does it really matter how much "not broken" it is? Is the degree even important?

--------------------

So that we can stop talking about that pointless subject, how about we discuss the nominations.
Excadrill got onto the chopping block... again. Let's watch a majority vote it OU for the fourth time!!!
Garchomp and Thundurus I expect to go, but I think Latios and Deoxys-E will stay.

I really hope Sand Stream stays. I've already said this, but it's a good option to go after the abusers with Sand Stream, because there are only 3, and only 2 of them are controversial. With Drought and Drizzle, you can't target individual abusers, because there's like, a dozen of them. Furthermore, no one would mourn the fact that Toed and Tales would go back to NU. But losing Tyranitar from OU would be losing a good Pokemon in its own right, regardless of what it does for its team.
tl;dr
I really think we should go for the Sandstorm abusers, rather than the ability.
But I want Drought and Drizzle gone forevermore.

Also, hell yeah reach! He just singlehandedly shot down people's attempted complex ban!

 

[Baldafor]

The non-Pokemon Suspects this round will be Sand Stream, Drizzle, and Drought.

The Pokemon Suspects this round will be Deoxys-e, Latios, Garchomp, Thundurus and Excadrill.

I personally believe Drizzle will be the only nomination kicked out of OU this round. Although I would love to see Latios gone, I think most will choose to champion against Garchomp instead due to the Sand Veil fiasco. That's really unfortunate because Latios is much, much more versatile in the hands of a good player, and much more dangerous as a result.

 

[Pocket]

I have to say I was surprised to see Sand Stream, and somewhat Drought, to be on the list of non-Pokemon suspects. I guess the occasional All Perma-Weather ban nominations have led to this decision. I am certain that Drought and Sand Stream wont gain supermajorities and will thus remain.

Anyways, finally, it is voting time! This round is really gonna alter the face of the metagame for good, depending on what the voters decide.

 

[Olijolly]

I'd wished to keep all weathers and only have garchomp and thundurus banned.
Maybe drizzle as well but I wouldn't want the meta to be even more centralizing with ss and drought so really...I guess it's not a bad idea to ban all weathers at once.
Still, I enjoy the current meta :(

Sad to see chomp go...which, by the looks of it, will surely be banned this round.

S
U
C
K
S

like balls

 

[KurashiDragon]

Well the nominations are finally up. Whatever the bans were, hopefully the voters looks at the posts of those pasionate enough to make great posts involving the things they do or don't want banned. That's what will really change the voters minds.

 

[Blackdragonking]

The non-Pokemon Suspects this round will be Sand Stream, Drizzle, and Drought.

The Pokemon Suspects this round will be Deoxys-e, Latios, Garchomp, Thundurus and Excadrill.

Wow. A suspect round where I wouldn't be sad at all if every single suspect got banned. I don't know if that's happened before.

 

[IcyMan28]

Lol Excadrill. I'm incredulous.

Anyway, I'm glad the potential reintroduction of Manaphy was accepted. Really I just want Drizzle gone, everything else is fine.

As a sidenote, the size of the voter pool is great this round.

 

[Nonary Game]

Lol Excadrill. I'm incredulous.

Anyway, I'm glad the potential reintroduction of Manaphy was accepted. Really I just want Drizzle gone, everything else is fine.

As a sidenote, the size of the voter pool is great this round.

Indeed. I think it'll be a bit more reasonable and would allow to get a more accurate picture of what the general consensus is.

As for the abilities voted up, I can't quite comment except to say that I'm not sure how Sand Stream is all of a sudden a game breaker to get nominated.

The potential re-introduction of Manaphy will be interesting, and if it does get reintroduced, I might start running Ferrothorn or Blissey again.

Deoxys-E and Latios are automatically on the chopping block, and I'd anticipate Latios getting the axe. I'm not sure on Deoxys-E. Garchomp is probably going to Ubers, and maybe Thundurus to a lesser extent. Excadrill is probably staying in OU seeing how mostly everyone can handle our pintsized powerhouse of a mole, or at least have an answer for it.

In any case, it'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Indeed. I think it'll be a bit more reasonable and would allow to get a more accurate picture of what the general consensus is.

As for the abilities voted up, I can't quite comment except to say that I'm not sure how Sand Stream is all of a sudden a game breaker to get nominated.

The potential re-introduction of Manaphy will be interesting, and if it does get reintroduced, I might start running Ferrothorn or Blissey again.

Deoxys-E and Latios are automatically on the chopping block, and I'd anticipate Latios getting the axe. I'm not sure on Deoxys-E. Garchomp is probably going to Ubers, and maybe Thundurus to a lesser extent. Excadrill is probably staying in OU seeing how mostly everyone can handle our pintsized powerhouse of a mole, or at least have an answer for it.

In any case, it'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

Suprisingly, Latios wasn't talked about much. People were way into Complex Bans this round because of Blaziken. I have a feeling Latios might stay this round.

 

[Nonary Game]

Suprisingly, Latios wasn't talked about much. People were way into Complex Bans this round because of Blaziken. I have a feeling Latios might stay this round.

And if it does, that's more reason to run a specially defensive steel, like Jirachi, as you'll probably need it to take the hits it's throwing out unless Tyranitar isn't 2HKO'd by Surf in Sand.

 

[Pocket]

Suprisingly, Latios wasn't talked about much. People were way into Complex Bans this round because of Blaziken. I have a feeling Latios might stay this round.

Speaking of the complex ban, it was a shame that reachzero took a zero tolerance approach to it, which is slightly unfair imo. Aldaron's Proposal's effectiveness should have shed light on the viability of such a ban. Yes, I believe we should nominate complex bans in moderation, because when everything's equal, simplicity > complexity. However, he dismissed the nomination for Shell Smash + Baton Pass ban for the sole reason that it was a combination ban, which I find it to be an unwarranted bias on his part. Jabba had no problems having Smash Pass as a nomination in UU Suspect Round 1. I find this much more reasonable than banning 3 Pokemon.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Speaking of the complex ban, it was a shame that reachzero took a zero tolerance approach to it, which is slightly unfair imo. Aldaron's Proposal's effectiveness should have shed light on the viability of such a ban. Yes, I believe we should nominate complex bans in moderation, because when everything's equal, simplicity > complexity. However, he dismissed the nomination for Shell Smash + Baton Pass ban for the sole reason that it was a combination ban, which I find it to be an unwarranted bias on his part. Jabba had no problems having Smash Pass as a nomination in UU Suspect Round 1. I find this much more reasonable than banning 3 Pokemon.

Yea I saw that. I personally don't care about the Smash Pass combo ban however, even if he had accepted it I would've felt it unwarrented only because the Smash Pass combo is only being nominated in the first place because of people being paranoid. Smash Pass isn't even that good in OU. On paper it seems very good but all of the times I've battled it, I've never really had a problem with it. Of course this is just personal Experience.

 

[Pocket]

Yea, I agree with you. That was just a specific example illustrating how things could have been dealt better through a combination ban rather than banning a handful of Pokemon.

 

[Rosey Oak]

The argument lets keep drizzle because drought and sandstorm will become over centralizing and that the Metagame will become off balanced is a joke to me.

The Metagame already suffers from both and everything needs to have a starting point. Anyway, there's no sense in keeping something broken in the Metagame because it may or may not effect something else. If it's broken the Metagame would be better of without it full stop.

Additionally, as it stands Drizzle and Sand Storm where the main runners in OU and Drought was barely used, so just imagen that Drought was used a lot now instead of Drizzle. (i.e your argument is somewhat invalid anyway OliJolly.)

Drought also needs to go to in my opinion, as I have already explained why in my long argument on p84, but the majority hasn't seen Drought to it's full abusive extent so I don't think it will be getting the boot this time round.

Final note: I'm fairly sure Drought will become the new Drizzle and thus will get the ban eventually but all in due time I guess...


Side Note: Excadrill is Over Powered in my opinion but it's far less noticeable because it's easier to counter one Pokemon than a whole entity of 'Drizzle' sweepers. Excadrill and Garchomp are the only sand sweepers both having similar counters i.e Skarmory, Gliscor and Brongzong, which therefore makes it's easier to counter than Drizzle. The only difference is that Garchomp's getting axed quicker due to the fact it can beat its counters through hax which makes it more noticeably broken. (Whereas Excadrill is fine and as long as you have a 'counter' left on your team.) I'll write a proper argument/case for Excadrill when the time is right but I'm fairly certain it won't be banned just yet and now's not the time.

 

[Azule]

I'll just throw my four cents in, I expect they'll get torn to pieces, but it's how I feel from doing some serious laddering lately.

If you're going to ban weather, you should either go all out or all in. This Drizzle Swift Swim thing is stupid, and it actually shakes my confidence in the Policy Review team of Smogon to make the correct decisions when it comes to what's best for the game. If we could do complex bans, we could take almost every Pokemon out of the Uber tier. Ya know, let's bring Rayquaza to OU, but it can't use any STAB moves. It's a very far flung example, but it's directly comparable to what happened with Drizzle.

On that note, I don't think Sun and Sand are overpowered.They both have solid team counters, and a Sun team vs a Sand team is more often than not a fun game on both sides.The only possibility that breaks sand is Garchomp (I played with him for a while, and it was utterly ridiculous how many misses the opponent got. For an example, Stone Edge drops to a 60% accuracy. You shouldn't be Stone Edging Chomp anyway, but if you're playing with such low accuracy, you might as well put Inferno on your Pokemon)

 

[Nkululeko]

Latios needs to go.It's ridiculous how many pokemon it wrecks with a Specs Draco Meteor and facing (essentially a STAB) Surf under Rain isn't fun either.

Thundurus should stay IMO. It might not have a very hard counter but it has a healthy amount of checks and isn't all that broken.

I wish we nominated Politoed, but I'd be glad to see Drizzle gone. It makes UU mons(Toxicroak) viable in OU and OU pokes(Kingdra) Uber. Nobody likes facing a Jirachi or Ferrothorn under Rain and it still has great sweepers after the nerf. As an added bonus, with the repeal of the Aldaron Proposal we can stop fielding the SB+Blaziken and other complex bans in suspect threads.

Complex banning needs to stop. Smashpassing is scary an all, but it's not broken. We can't bring BlazeBlaziken back, and it's gonna end up being all or nothing on pokes like Garchomp. Seriously, I'm glad reach was firmly against pokemon+ability complex bans, we don't nitpick manipulable mechanics in pokemon and hopefully the complex ban craze is over.

Last but not least, if Drizzle goes free Manaphy, it wouldn't be broken anymore and we can end the precedent of making policy actions to keep Drizzle. Seriously, Manaphy was banned and the Drizzle+Swift Swim combo, why not get rid of the only common denominator instead of dancing around the idea of banning Drizzle.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

I'll just throw my four cents in, I expect they'll get torn to pieces, but it's how I feel from doing some serious laddering lately.

If you're going to ban weather, you should either go all out or all in. This Drizzle Swift Swim thing is stupid, and it actually shakes my confidence in the Policy Review team of Smogon to make the correct decisions when it comes to what's best for the game. If we could do complex bans, we could take almost every Pokemon out of the Uber tier. Ya know, let's bring Rayquaza to OU, but it can't use any STAB moves. It's a very far flung example, but it's directly comparable to what happened with Drizzle.

On that note, I don't think Sun and Sand are overpowered.They both have solid team counters, and a Sun team vs a Sand team is more often than not a fun game on both sides.The only possibility that breaks sand is Garchomp (I played with him for a while, and it was utterly ridiculous how many misses the opponent got. For an example, Stone Edge drops to a 60% accuracy. You shouldn't be Stone Edging Chomp anyway, but if you're playing with such low accuracy, you might as well put Inferno on your Pokemon)

The reason why Drizzle + Swift Swim was so overpowered was because Rain boosted all these STAB water moves while also making the Swift Swimmers outspeed everything.

So you end up with a few pokemon who are extremely fast and hit for massively boosted damage.

In contrast, Chlorophyll and Drought don't mesh nearly as well. Chlorophyll is only on grass types, who take extra fire damage in Sun, something they're already weak too. They don't learn any fire moves, so there are no pokemon that get the speed boost from Chlorophyll in addition to STAB and Sun boosted fire attacks. Sandstorm and Hail don't even increase damage for their respective elements either.

But just because one rain-based ability is overpowered doesn't necessarily mean that Drizzle itself needs to be banned. Others, like Hydration, aren't exactly broken. So you could go ahead and ban all pokemon that can abuse Swift Swim, but that's a lot of pokemon getting banned because of one ability (Kabutops, Kingdra, Ludicolo, and maybe Omastar). In my opinion, the combination ban of Swift Swim and Drizzle was the best option. I doubt that bans would ever get more complex than this, meaning we won't ever see "Arceus isn't uber as long as he takes an attack hindering nature with no STAB moves" or something.

 

[Nkululeko]

But just because one rain-based ability is overpowered doesn't necessarily mean that Drizzle itself needs to be banned. Others, like Hydration, aren't exactly broken. So you could go ahead and ban all pokemon that can abuse Swift Swim, but that's a lot of pokemon getting banned because of one ability (Kabutops, Kingdra, Ludicolo, and maybe Omastar). In my opinion, the combination ban of Swift Swim and Drizzle was the best option.

There is more to Rain's power than Swift Swim. Toxicroak can Stall what it outspeeds due to Dry Skin and Leftovers giving it essentially free subs and Drain Punch recovery on top of that. Ferrothorn and Jirachi are instantly bulkier due to a lost Fire weaknes. Kabutops, Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Manaphy are all broken only under the effect of Rain. We could actually keep diversity in the metagame by banning the element that makes a big group of pokemon broken. If the combo ban of Swift Swim and Drizzle was the best option, then why do so many people want it gone? It's support pool is huge and it's not as if we really needed to make Steel types bulkier, Thunder/Hurricane reliable, and Water moves overpowered.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Final note: I'm fairly sure Drought will become the new Drizzle and thus will get the ban eventually but all in due time I guess...

Yes, all in due time. We have no need to preemptively ban anything.

I played with him for a while, and it was utterly ridiculous how many misses the opponent got. For an example, Stone Edge drops to a 60% accuracy.

80% * 80% = 64%.

The non-Pokemon Suspects this round will be Sand Stream, Drizzle, and Drought.

The Pokemon Suspects this round will be Deoxys-e, Latios, Garchomp, Thundurus and Excadrill.

And again.


And again.


And again.


And again and again and again and again and again and again and again

 

[Rosey Oak]

I'm just going to repeat myself about the Excadrill topic.


Excadrill is Over Powered in my opinion but it is far less noticeable because it's much easier to counter one Pokemon than a whole entity of 'Drizzle' sweepers. Excadrill and Garchomp are the only sand sweepers both having similar counters i.e Skarmory, Gliscor and Brongzong, which therefore makes it's easier to counter than Drizzle in general. The reason why Garchomp's getting axed quicker is due to the fact it can beat its counters through hax which makes it more noticeably broken. Whereas Excadrill is fine and as long as you have a 'wall counter' left on your team.

(No Pokemon is faster than Excadrill in SS - not even choice scarf revenge killers. It has enough bulk to survive crucial hits and cannot be OHKO'd by OU priority moves such as iron fist mach punch Conkledurr. It resists SR, is immune to toxic and can't be paralysed/crippled by t-wave. The only way to effectively beat it is through one of its counters i.e Gliscor/Skarmory/Brongzong/Rotom-W. As long as you have one of these counters and it's still alive don't worry you'll be fine).

The truth is Excadrill is broken in its own right, however it is less noticeable and is manageable as long as your counter(s) is still alive. Additionally, we in fact generally over prepare for this Pokemon and thus it appears to be less threatening.

I will write a proper argument/case for Excadrill when the time is right but I'm fairly certain it won't be banned just yet and now is not the time.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I don't Get the excadrill thing. It can be revenged (azumarill, conkeldurr) and walled (gliscor), it's not "over-centralizing" anymore because I hardly even see it. There's really no problem with it.

Latios needs to go.It's ridiculous how many pokemon it wrecks with a Specs Draco Meteor and facing (essentially a STAB) Surf under Rain isn't fun either.

I've said it so many times, and I'll say it again: The only wall I've seen to latios is ferrothorn, which can just take beatings of HP fire in the rain. If rain goes, we face much more problems, because ferrothorn will no longer have as much defensive capability. Rain is indeed broken IMO, but if it's banned we have so much more to deal with with much less.

 

[Rosey Oak]

I don't Get the excadrill thing. It can be revenged (azumarill, conkeldurr) and walled (gliscor), it's not "over-centralizing" anymore because I hardly even see it. There's really no problem with it.

It can be revenge killed by Azumarill (not that I ever see this Pokemon in OU).

It cannot be revenged killed by Conkludurr.

416 Atk vs 156 Def & 361 HP (40 Base Power): 230 - 272 (63.71% - 75.35%)

Even if I did the less favourable Iron Fist ability it wouldn't OHKO (including SR damage).

Yes it has its few counters - Gliscor/Skarmory/Brongzong/Rotom-w (even Uber's have counters btw) and like I said it's manageable as long as your counter(s) for it are still alive. If you read my post again, you'll see that I've already pointed this out.

Anyway, I don't plan to formally argue about Excadrill just yet.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Excadrill and Garchomp are the only sand sweepers both having similar counters i.e Skarmory, Gliscor and Brongzong, which therefore makes it's easier to counter than Drizzle in general. The reason why Garchomp's getting axed quicker is due to the fact it can beat its counters through hax which makes it more noticeably broken. Whereas Excadrill is fine and as long as you have a 'wall counter' left on your team.

The other problem with Garchomp is its superior type coverage. While excadrill can only use earthquake, rock slide, and sometimes x-scissor, Garchomp gets OUTRAGE (hitting everything but steel), and the best steel-killing coverage moves ever: fire and ground. There is no viable pokemon that resists all of those attacks. That, and garchomp has swampert's bulk, making revenging it harder than it looks.