np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[bubbly]

Excadrill isn't overcentralising yet. It can be killed in three main ways. One, wall it, for which there are essentially those four options mentioned above which make decent (and only decent) counters or it. Two, you can have an Azumarill or CB Conkeldurr or something (but at the same time this option means you'll be hard pressed not to sac a pokemon every time it comes in). Or you can remove its weather.

Being forced to run one of four pokemon just to deal with this one sweeper is ridiculous and basically unprecedented in terms of what is allowed to stay in the metagame (okay, so not Thundurus, but he's on the way out). Once auto-weather is banned or somehow nerfed the argument will shift back towards Excadrill.

 

[UltiMario]

Saying it has "Swampert's Bulk" is really bad because it really doesn't. Swampert always invested defensively, while Chomp doesn't. Base stat wise, yes. Actual competitive bulk? No.

Also why are people still arguing about Excadrill. At least it has counters, while some shit in this metagame doesn't.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Oh boy


It just occurred to me this is the first time Tyranitar may get banned in the history of whatever except for VGC 2009 and Stadium 2


oh boy

 

[November Blue]

@JT Swift

No one (I hope) is judging you for voicing your opinion on a certain matter/topic.

If only this were true. Nobody is going to take me seriously now.

I hope this is a joke, I really do. The Swords Dance set alone could break OU in half, let's not even go into the mixed set. Hell, even DD, which is probably the easiest to check, would be way too much to expect OU to handle. There's a reason why I said nominating Ray for testing was ridiculous, and imo it's even less likely that Ray would fit in than Lugia. You're not even giving any attempt at a decent argument here. "Oh Haxorus only has 3 less base Attack, it'll be fine."

For the record, when I talked about hostility I was referring to stuff like this. Tobes, I respect that you're entitled to your own opinion, but you don't seem to respect the opinions of others that differ from your own. In what world is it okay to tear chunks out of people like this? Your counter argument is nothing but baseless speculation and conjecture, yet you brandish it in our faces as if it's the only one that could possibly be right.

I'll think twice before I post certain things in here again. Some of you really can't handle it maturely/rationally.

I don't think that rayquaza in OU would be awful. Don't forget about air lock.

Ok. Now I'll start switching my Ferrothorn into Infernape. Because after all, Ferrothorn is a wall.

I'm not going to bother with this.

There's a difference between "strong, super effective hits" and "coming in on a sweeper with SE STAB as it boosts its stats". The former is reasonable, the latter is not.

I ask you again, JTSwift, what can the majority of OU do to Lugia.
Answer: nothing.

Anything can be killed by SE, boosted, STAB moves. Any Uber. I'm wondering what makes Lugia in particular OU-worthy.

Stop acting like OHKOes are the only way to get rid of lugia. Pick a warstory, read through it, and tell me how many pokes are OHKOed outside of a sweep. Lugia needs a turn to use roost. He may be bulky, be he's not invincible.

Because Lugia is a fucking monster. He has more bulk than any of the Pokemon you just listed. He has more Speed than all of them (ties with Latias). He has better coverage than most of them. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The fact that you even just said that brings your credibility into question, man. It's one thing to talk about Lugia's bad points, but that question was absolutely absurd.

Reuniclus has magic guard. He doesn't care about toxic, spikes, leech seed ect. at all. His physical bulk is amazing and after a calm mind or two the difference between lugia's spdef and his own is negligible (especially considering reuniclus ISN'T ice/electric weak.) Lugia may have the advantage in defenses, but reuniclus wins this one by being immune to damn near everything after a couple of calm minds. There are plenty of ways to get rid of calm mind lugia that just don't work on reuniclus.

Sigilyph is in the same boat. Magic guard again, flame orb psycho shift to patch up the defense (and beat tyranitar) calm mind, roost, whirlwind, screens. He also has stored power, hypnosis, and air slash, higher special attack and base 97 speed. Sigilyph is quite fast in the current metagame, outspeeding well over half of OU. He has a fast roost just like lugia, and better attacking prowess.

Why would you choose lugia over either of these? Aeroblast + earth power is an awful offensive combo. If you use up all of your blasts you get walled by half the metagame. No magic guard means that stall teams can wear him down too. Roost/CM/aeroblast/earth power doesn't seem like a good set at all to me. No status, no whirlwind...

If you think "i dont like it" is the foundation of our arguments, then you shouldn't even stay here. We've explained things to you, and you refuse to accept them.
But when we do the same to you, we're "being closed-minded, stubborn, and arrogant".

There have been some really good counter arguments and I can see where people are coming from, but nobody wants a test because they just don't like the idea. Better?

It's about your comparisons to Slowbro and Ferrothorn. It's defensive stats far out-shine Ferrothorn and Slowbro. Slowbro and Ferrothorn both have less HP and Sp Def than Lugia. It's true that Ferrothorn can use Spikes, but Lugia has instant recovery to make up for it.

About the Reuniclus thing, I assume you meant Magic Guard Renuiclus.
If you actually did mean Overcoat Reuniclus, then you just lost huge amounts of credibility. Overcoat Reuniclus would probably be RU or NU, because it's just another Psychic. We have Beheeyem, Gardevoir, etc. CM Lugia would be incredible, don't even try to act like it wouldn't. A comparison between Overcoat Reuniclus and Lugia is insulting.

Slowbro is potentially superior to lugia in many ways. He has much better typing, both offensively and defensively, he has regen, reliable recovery, way better special attack, great physical bulk (You're not OHKOing him without a really strong super effective physical STAB move.) He also has access to all five forms of status, roar, flamethrower, trick...

Who are you to judge credibility? I did mean overcoat reuniclus, as I don't feel that the magic guard variant is a fair comparison. Just another psychic? Lugia is just another psychic as well.

Let me draw a comparison here. Let's say that celebi is currently in the uber tier, and I make a proposal to test it in OU.

"Celebi? In OU? There's no way that'd ever happen! It's just too good.

Celebi has great defenses, high speed and decent mixed attacking stats. It's typing gives it an amazing set of resistances, and you have 5 teamamtes to cover it's weaknesses. It's movepool is beyond broken. It can be either physical or special with SD or nasty plot, and has great STAB options to abuse with both. Sucker punch takes care of faster psychics. Giga drain allows it to heal itself while it KOes half your team, subseeding stalls out almost everything, and it can abuse a fast recover to heal off any damage you do to it. It just never dies. You can't status it because of natural cure, and heal bell makes the entire team virtually immune to status. You can't even counter it because it will just U-turn out. It's sheer unpredictability makes it dangerous. It can run dual screens, trick, lay stealth rock, perish song your last pokemon...

If celebi were allowed into OU, stall teams would be unstoppable, everyone would need a scizor on their team and bulky waters and grounds would become unviable. It would never work in OU. It's uber for a reason.

I wouldn't like to see celebi in OU. It's obviously uber, and testing it would be a waste of time.

--------------------------------

The problem is that a lot of pokemon sound great on paper, and you can't prove anything by theorymonning. This is why I want to test lugia. You're all asking me to convince you, but it's just impossible. The test period is supposed to convince you, not a magic phrase.

I'd really like to stop talking about lugia now. Can we all move on please?

 

[Rosey Oak]

The other problem with Garchomp is its superior type coverage. While excadrill can only use earthquake, rock slide, and sometimes x-scissor, Garchomp gets OUTRAGE (hitting everything but steel), and the best steel-killing coverage moves ever: fire and ground. There is no viable pokemon that resists all of those attacks. That, and garchomp has swampert's bulk, making revenging it harder than it looks.

Well it's not a debate on who is more broken Garchomp or Excadrill.

But
Excadrill (ground typing wise) hits everything hard but Flying (immume), Grass and Bug anyway.

Pure Bug typing isn't used in OU and Bug/Steel takes neutral damage from stab EQ. Grass types are either hit hard with a super effective x-scizzor (except for those who are Fighting/Grass in OU) or hit hard with a 810att (SD) base 102 Return.

As for flying types they can be hit hard with a super effective rock slide.

If you noticed the four counters I've listed (Skarmory/Brongzong/Gliscor/Rotom-W), can handle Excadrill due to their typing or ability. Flying/Steel and Flying/Ground can not be hit super effectively and Brongzong and Rotom-W have levitate so cannot be hit with stab.

Yes Garchomp is superior coverage wise but is Excadrill is hitting almost everything in OU hard too.

(Forgetting about Hax) Garchomp can be revenge killed in other ways though because it is not the fastest sweeper, therefore you don't need to reply on priority. Excadrill cannot be out speed by any Pokemon in SS, including Scarf revenge killers therefore you have to reply on wall counters or priority. But like I've said OU priority doesn't kill it anyway. Max Att Conkledurr doesn't even OHKO with Iron Fist.

Finally, like it's not like we should be comparing the two. You don't say something is less broken, because 'this Pokemon' is more broken than it.

EDIT: Let's drop the Excadrill topic for now. I'd like to see it get banned, but now is not the time for it.

 

[UltiMario]

Slowbro is potentially superior to lugia in many ways. He has much better typing, both offensively and defensively, he has regen, reliable recovery, way better special attack, great physical bulk (You're not OHKOing him without a really strong super effective physical STAB move.) He also has access to all five forms of status, roar, flamethrower, trick...

Just like to say that you are like way overstating these.
1. Lugia is bulkier than slowbro in every way. 106/130/154 defenses vs 95/110/80 Defenses. You obviously don't even look at stats, and this ruins your credibility.
2. Lugia is immune to Spikes and TSpikes, more than making up for its SR weakness, and without having to worry about TSpikes, it's overall going to live longer than Slowbro by an extreme margin.
3. Slowbro and Lugia share most of the same weaknesses and resistances, except Slowbro gets Grass while Lugia gets Rock and Ice weaknesses. If Slowbro is taking a Super Effective attack, Lugia would take the exact same attack, better, AND it could roost it off faster next turn.
4. Lugia has access to a fair amount of status too, I admit scald is nice though. Scald is probably the ONLY thing Slowbro has over lugia that it really cares for, but at a 30% chance of working it's not a reason to use Slowbro over it.
5. Lugia gets Whirlwind, which is better than Roar. Or Dragon Tail, if you must.
6. Slowbro never uses Trick
7. Lugia doesn't need Flamethrower.

Really you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're making it more obvious every post you make.

 

[Mr_br_kill]

The other problem with Garchomp is its superior type coverage. While excadrill can only use earthquake, rock slide, and sometimes x-scissor, Garchomp gets OUTRAGE (hitting everything but steel), and the best steel-killing coverage moves ever: fire and ground. There is no viable pokemon that resists all of those attacks. That, and garchomp has swampert's bulk, making revenging it harder than it looks.

But garchomp is alot easier to revenge kill then drill and even other dragons because chomp has no way to boost his spend (barring scarf).

 

[Little Battler]

@ Jt Swift : I feel you bro.

Back to topic.

I believe that Drought is yet to be banned this round. Rosey might have said that we have yet to see the full extent of the damage Drought teams are capable of doing, and yes I believe this is the truth. Yet, without seeing what Drought teams are capable of doing with Drizzle gone, I really think that we are unable to determine whether it is truly ban-worthy or not. Thus, I do hope that at least Drought (and most preferably Sand Stream) does not get banned in this round.

On the pokemon nominees are familiar names. I suspect that Garchomp will be gone this time around, and perhaps accompanied with his sand partner Excadrill. Speaking about 'Drill, while people do point out that it has solid (or semi solid) counters, I do think that its counters are rather few in number and thus making it somewhat centralizing. That said, I believe that there is quite a good chance of Excadrill being banished to the land of Ubers.

 

[Nkululeko]

Just like to say that you are like way overstating these.
1. Lugia is bulkier than slowbro in every way. 106/130/154 defenses vs 95/110/80 Defenses. You obviously don't even look at stats, and this ruins your credibility.
2. Lugia is immune to Spikes and TSpikes, more than making up for its SR weakness, and without having to worry about TSpikes, it's overall going to live longer than Slowbro by an extreme margin.
3. Slowbro and Lugia share most of the same weaknesses and resistances, except Slowbro gets Grass while Lugia gets Rock and Ice weaknesses. If Slowbro is taking a Super Effective attack, Lugia would take the exact same attack, better, AND it could roost it off faster next turn.
4. Lugia has access to a fair amount of status too, I admit scald is nice though. Scald is probably the ONLY thing Slowbro has over lugia that it really cares for, but at a 30% chance of working it's not a reason to use Slowbro over it.
5. Lugia gets Whirlwind, which is better than Roar. Or Dragon Tail, if you must.
6. Slowbro never uses Trick
7. Lugia doesn't need Flamethrower.

Really you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're making it more obvious every post you make.

JTSwift, I thought you said we were gonna let this die...

Anyway, I like the idea of removing Excadrill from the ballot if Sandstream goes. It's only broken with SS activated and that's what made it ridiculous.

And to the voters, please ban Drizzle. We can get Manaphy into testing AND get rid of the Aldaron Proposal. It's a win-win.

 

[November Blue]

Just like to say that you are like way overstating these.
1. Lugia is bulkier than slowbro in every way. 106/130/154 defenses vs 95/110/80 Defenses. You obviously don't even look at stats, and this ruins your credibility.
2. Lugia is immune to Spikes and TSpikes, more than making up for its SR weakness, and without having to worry about TSpikes, it's overall going to live longer than Slowbro by an extreme margin.
3. Slowbro and Lugia share most of the same weaknesses and resistances, except Slowbro gets Grass while Lugia gets Rock and Ice weaknesses. If Slowbro is taking a Super Effective attack, Lugia would take the exact same attack, better, AND it could roost it off faster next turn.
4. Lugia has access to a fair amount of status too, I admit scald is nice though. Scald is probably the ONLY thing Slowbro has over lugia that it really cares for, but at a 30% chance of working it's not a reason to use Slowbro over it.
5. Lugia gets Whirlwind, which is better than Roar. Or Dragon Tail, if you must.
6. Slowbro never uses Trick
7. Lugia doesn't need Flamethrower.

Really you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're making it more obvious every post you make.

1. Huh? I never said that slowbro is bulkier than lugia. Don't be ridiculous.

2. Tspikes aren't that common, and you can't make up for a SR weakness. Slowbro has spikes covered with regen.

3. Not much to say here.

4. Lugia has toxic and twave like almost everything else. Slowbro is lucky enough to get yawn, which can be extremely powerful when used correctly. Slowbro wins this one.

5. Are you seriously arguing that whirlwind is better than roar? Any credibility you had just flew out the window. (Neener neener!)
I'll give you dragon tail though.

6. There's a trickspecs set in the slowbro analysis.

7. Really? How can lugia without flamethrower get past bronzong or ferrothorn? EDIT: Don't answer this. I'm not going to say anything more about lugia. I'm fucking done.


I'm a little concerned now that sand and thundurus are on the chopping block. I'd be sad to see either go. Same with excadrill, latios and deoxys. Is banning them really necessary? Sand seems like a token inclusion, and drill, latios and deo aren't problematic at all. I'd be surprised if they were banned.

Drizzle and garchomp will probably go IMO. I don't mind either way.


Speaking of slowbro, what is your opinion of him in the current meta? He has all the makings of a top wall, but he seems underused to me.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

And to the voters, please ban Drizzle. We can get Manaphy into testing AND get rid of the Aldaron Proposal. It's a win-win.

Please describe a reliable counter to latios, not ferrothorn in rain. I would REALLY like to see rain gone, but I fear what will happen after we ban it.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Please describe a reliable counter to latios, not ferrothorn in rain. I would REALLY like to see rain gone, but I fear what will happen after we ban it.

Tyranitar. And Volcarona can set up on it after a Draco Meteor, which is never good news. I guess other bulky sweepers do the same but I can't be bothered to check right now.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Isn't tyranitar on the chopping block as well? Well, volcarona for one is interesting.

Specs +SpAtk Latios vs +SpDef Volcarona 252/252=70.1%-82.9%
Specs +SpAtk Latios vs neutral Volcarona 252/252=77%-90.6%
Specs +SpAtk Latios vs neutral Volcarona 4/252=92.3%-108.7%
Specs +SpAtk Latios vs neutral Volcarona 252/4=96.3%-113.4%

All of these are sure 2HKO's, 1HKO's sometimes with spikes and sure OHKO with SR.

 

[Nkululeko]

Latios needs to go.It's ridiculous how many pokemon it wrecks with a Specs Draco Meteor and facing (essentially a STAB) Surf under Rain isn't fun either.

Please describe a reliable counter to latios, not ferrothorn in rain. I would REALLY like to see rain gone, but I fear what will happen after we ban it.

I want Latios gone too. The rise of steel types to take those hits should be evidence enough of how big of a threat it is but under rain it's kinda ridiculous. Latios and a handful of other pokemon are why people run HP Ice and to me the need to do that warrants some consideration in voting IMO.

Btw, I really don't like the idea of keeping Drizzle OU so Ferrothorn can beat Latios. There's no need to fear threats that don't exist yet and we should focus on what's best for the meta as it stands now.
Clear Skies anyone?

 

[SalTheThief]

People aren't running HP Ice for Latios. It's most likely for Gliscor, but I bet the SE coverage on Latios helps.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Please describe a reliable counter to latios, not ferrothorn in rain.

If you are suggesting we should keep rain to ensure that Ferrothorn stays a reliable counter to Latios, then I'm at a loss. If you are, however noting the fact that Specs Latios doesn't have enough reliable counters, then I agree with you.

For the record I'd like to see Latios banned. It could go either way though - I'm not sure if there are more people for or against it due to the fact that I don't recall discussing it in detail.

I would REALLY like to see rain gone, but I fear what will happen after we ban it.

I assume you mean if rain goes and drought and SS stays. Drought will most likely become the new rain. It wasn't like it was used much before hand due to the fact that Drizzle and SS were the dominant weathers. Mostly likely it will result in the same favourability and unbalance state that is in the Metagame at the moment. I just know one thing for sure. I would not like to see the Metagame stay the same way it is.


"Everything that has a beginning has an end. Everything with no beginning will have no end."

We have to start somewhere =3

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Well, then let's ban that drizzle and hunker down for the worst few weeks of our life.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Isn't tyranitar on the chopping block as well? Well, volcarona for one is interesting.

Specs +SpAtk Latios vs +SpDef Volcarona 252/252=70.1%-82.9%
Specs +SpAtk Latios vs neutral Volcarona 252/252=77%-90.6%
Specs +SpAtk Latios vs neutral Volcarona 4/252=92.3%-108.7%
Specs +SpAtk Latios vs neutral Volcarona 252/4=96.3%-113.4%

All of these are sure 2HKO's, 1HKO's sometimes with spikes and sure OHKO with SR.

Yes, but I said after a Draco Meteor. While Latios can kill shit clicking the Draco Meteor button, the problem is the enormous set-up bait he becomes right after it, and Volcarona is an example.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Ah, i see what you mean. but at that point you're just dealing with a +1 volcarona, there are ways around that (blissey, etc.). Also, is that a legitamate strategy? sacrifice something to get a free switch into a poke that will just switch out and cause more carnage? If that's the only strategy against it, then it needs to be banned.

 

[Tobes]

For the record, when I talked about hostility I was referring to stuff like this. Tobes, I respect that you're entitled to your own opinion, but you don't seem to respect the opinions of others that differ from your own. In what world is it okay to tear chunks out of people like this? Your counter argument is nothing but baseless speculation and conjecture, yet you brandish it in our faces as if it's the only one that could possibly be right.

I'll think twice before I post certain things in here again. Some of you really can't handle it maturely/rationally.

I don't think that rayquaza in OU would be awful. Don't forget about air lock.

It annoys me that you're taking such a condescending tone in this post, but whatever, I'll try to keep this calm and quick.

I respect other people's opinions, but I do not respect when people want to decide tiering based entirely off theorymon. When I read through your posts, I can't help but feel that you have never played Ubers, and are not working with any experience with them whatsoever. I play with them fairly frequently, and have a pretty good grasp of what they can and cannot do. I'd say from using my experiences with them I can get a fairly accurate idea of what they look like in OU. I'm pretty damn confident Rayquaza would break OU (and no, Weather Lock is not worth dropping him down for), because I play both with it and against it on a regular basis. Yes, I admit that my opinion is also based off theorymon, but I also have experience to back it up. If you do in fact have experience with Ubers, then I apologize for assuming that you don't, but I have yet to see anything you've posted that indicates that you have, and until then I cannot respect your arguments, let alone your opinion.

In case you didn't know, I was all for beginning Gen V without any bans whatsoever and seeing how it went. It was decided that this wasn't the best course, and I go with that decision, just like I go with other tiering decisions I don't agree with, such as Blaziken's ban. Please stop pulling this "you don't respect other's opinions" bullshit, it only makes you come across as whiny, and it certainly doesn't give any weight to your arguments.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Response with Mario


Exactly, people complain about latios's power but they dont realize the position it leaves you in after the fact. What happens if I run a HO team? I sac my half weaked Lucario (or whatever) to Latios and bring in x sweeper (like Volcorona) immediately forcing the opposing teaqm on the defensive. Is latios powerful absolutely. Is it able to be predicted around? Absolutely. Can it elave you in a vulnerable state to the opposing team? Absolutely.

Ah, i see what you mean. but at that point you're just dealing with a +1 volcarona, there are ways around that (blissey, etc.). Also, is that a legitamate strategy? sacrifice something to get a free switch into a poke that will just switch out and cause more carnage? If that's the only strategy against it, then it needs to be banned.

At this point you are dealing with a +1 Latios (Specs) but there are ways around that (Blissey).
'Nuff said.

It absolutely is a viable strategy as I elaborate on above.


No it isnt the only strategy. One can predict its attack and switch to a resist. One can carry a pokemon that can take its attacks easily (Bliss, Jirachi, Sp.Def Scizor and metagross).

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Bliss takes massive damage from psycho shock, and all the others are wrecked by HP fire. With rain, it would be manageable...but rain is broken as well. So we get rid of rain AND latios, or we leave them both in, it seems to me.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Why do any of you respond to the absolute garbage that JT Swift spews out? There's a reason why he has no authority or even as little of a say as a vote in suspect tests. Listening to him preach about Pokemon is like believing in Harold Camping talk about doomsday. Just ignore the idiot.

This is what we call 'not falling for the idiot troll.'

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Look, I completely disagree with everything he's suggesting, but he has a legitimate claim. He can discuss wanting to test lugia if he wants, If people want to respond to that that's their problem, and we should just let it go.

 

[Rosey Oak]

@EVERYONE

Not pointing any fingers at anyone in particular here, but lets please just stop this constant bickering and hatred towards one another. I believe that everyone has a right to express their own opinion (no matter who they are). JT Swift you've stated your points and argument about Lugia and unfortunately for you no one agrees. The best thing to do now is to drop it. And quick frankly, I don't like some peoples attitude towards you at all either. I think it was completely unnecessary. But if we all end up being hostile towards another person because they were hostile to us in the first place we just end up in a vicious cycle.

Let's just try to leave all this bickering behind us now and get along, ok?

<3