And when does a Specs Latios not spam Draco meteor. At any rate if you beleive its not going to Meteor you can stay in :P
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Concerning the issue of the complex ban, I was actually glad with the way things turned out.
While I also believe lugia's presence in the ou meta will completely break the battle scenes, he attempts to make a legitimate claim.
Even I, a bystander, feel uncomfortable with all the hostile comments made toward JT. Still ray and lugia just won't do any good regarding the balance issue of the current ou meta.
Agreed.
While I also believe lugia's presence in the ou meta will completely break the battle scenes, he attempts to make a legitimate claim.
Even I, a bystander, feel uncomfortable with all the hostile comments made toward JT. Still ray and lugia just won't do any good regarding the balance issue of the current ou meta.
Post DM (-1) Timid specslatios Draco Meteor on 252 HP / 0 SpDef Volcarona: 44% Max (rough. max damage is 174 out of 374 HP)
Yeah, total setup bait. I used the bulky morning sun volcarona set.
Yeah, total setup bait. I used the bulky morning sun volcarona set.
Any good player would never spam one move over and over. Latios will always have potential to beat it's counters, which is what makes it so powerful. Someone might spam draco meteors and you switch out to blissey, but then what do you do? they switch out and blissey is a sitting duck. Blissey might try to twave or toxic something but you can easily switch to a reliable blissey counter. Meanwhile, you still have an undamaged latios ready to wreak havoc.
But what if there is SR up? Spikes? What if you mispredict a switch and latios DM's again? Can volcarona take another hit from the latios? in best-case, the latios is still undamaged and you only have a +1 volcarona.
Wow sOme intense butt hurting and e rage in this threAd loooooooooool
And I also don't think lugia in Ou in such a great idea
As for the complex ban I was hoping we'd some how keeP chomp in the ou environment with banning of sand veil+ss combo but I am also avaunt the usage Of comPlex ban or a least pretty uncomfy about it currently
And I also don't think lugia in Ou in such a great idea
As for the complex ban I was hoping we'd some how keeP chomp in the ou environment with banning of sand veil+ss combo but I am also avaunt the usage Of comPlex ban or a least pretty uncomfy about it currently
Wow, kinda harsh...
Thanks Rosey. ^_^
I agree though. Why are some of you being so hateful?
Double switch?
You shouldn't switch into latios if SR is up, and you should always bundle him with a spinner. Volcarona can take another DM, as latios is at -3 now, and moth is +1. You also outspeed and can recover back your health, bug buzz for the KO or quiver dance again.
Hang on...
You switch in after a DM, then you can quiver dance for free, twice if latios is stupid enough to stay in.
God, I'm really offended by what you said Aeroblacktyl. Why can't you just let it go?
Just cause a pokemon is predictable doesn't make it less powerful. Look at...Darkrai. Every set is practically guaranteed to have dark void. that's predictable. Does it make it ou?
Point is, Latios has ways to deal with the steel types, as well as massively spamming DM's, which wasn't a big enough problem already
Very verbose post, which responds to an argument which is already over, so...
But that's almost exactly what you said!
So I'll ask again: Why would Lugia switch into those kinds of attacks???
I simply want to know how many Pokemon can come in on Lugia and take Lugia out. Out of OU, how many Pokemon could actually switch in and immediately threaten Lugia (assuming they get a free switch-in)???
If the answer is a significant number, then I'll start to sway toward your side of the argument. But I'm not convinced yet, because any Pokemon, broken or not, would fall to moves like the ones you calc'ed (which were, as I've said, boosted, SE, and STAB).
The thing about Reuniclus is that he's so slow that he get's out-sped by pretty much every wall, which makes him much easier to deal with. Lugia, on other hand, can Earth Power Jirachi after a few CM's, before it gets Paralyzed and Flinched to death. Lugia can Roost before the Tyranitar uses Stone Edge, and leave itself with enough health left to CM on the next one.
Also, Lugia is bulkier on both sides, which is a small but still noticeable advantage.
Now, I'll admit, Reuniclus is almost perfectly made for CM'ing. It is currently the pinnacle of CM'ing 'mons. But I honestly think Lugia's advantages would make it just as good, if not better, than Reuniclus.
The thing is, though, about Sigilyph that Lugia doesn't need Flame Orb to beat Tyranitar. The only Tyranitar set which stands a chance at beating Lugia is BandTar, which is probably the third or fourth most common set right now. Besides, Lugia can Roost-Stall Stone Edge out of PP, and Pursuit only 3HKOes if Lugia stays in.
Lugia also has CM, Roost, Whirlwind, and Screens, so none of those moves actually give Sigilyph an advantage.
Stored Power requires you to get a lot of boosts to get enough power to sweep (and to make it worth the terrible typing that it has). That's more of a risk-vsreward thing, as you'll have to think when teambuilding "How can I support this thing to get myself enough boosts?"
Hypnosis has extremely poor accuracy and Bronzong is the only Pokemon in OU which even lists it as an option on any set. It's just not that great of a move (unless you have something like Lead Gengar, which is an entirely different scenario).
Air Slash has incredibly mediocre power. So no, that doesn't give Sigilyph "more attacking prowess".
Sigilyph has to run Speed in order to out-run all Turanitar so that it can burn them first. Lugia doesn't.
Most of the things you listed for Sigilyph wouldn't even be used on a CM set, making them moot points.
And, let's not forget, Lugia is much bulkier than Sigilyph.
Aeroblast + Earth Power is not an "awful offensive combo". ONly 3 Pokemon in OU resist it: Thundurus (who can't switch in because Lugia tanks his unboosted hits, while Thundurus gets wrecked due to his frailty), Bronzong (whose attacks literally can't do shit to Lugia), and Skarmory (whose only hope is to phaze you, so he loses in a last-Pokemon scenario).
And yes, you can use up all of your Aeroblasts. Oh well, I guess Terrakion sucks because Close Combat only has 8 PP. Oh well, I guess Infernape sucks because Fire Blast only has 8 PP. Oh well, I guess Reuniclus sucks because Focus Blast on has 8 PP. See where I'm going with this?
OMG stall teams can wear it down! Too bad it wrecks balanced much more than Reuniclus or Sigilyph. Magic Guard is not required for a good CM'er. Sigilyph is in UU, while other CM'ers are in OU, which just helps prove that.
News Flash: Reuniclus and Sigilyph also don't have Whirlwind on their CM sets!!! Reuniclus doesn't have status on its CM set!!!
However, I feel that it could be improved even more by saying something like this: " There have been some really good counter arguments and I can see where people are coming from, but nobody wants a test because they disagree with me and believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Lugia would break OU. Therefore, they do not want to use one of our limited months of testing on this the chance (which they believe to be infinitesimal) that Lugia may fit into OU."
See, with my example, you provide the other side's point of view, whilst still providing your own (which is that none of us can be 100% certain). Showing both sides is the best way to compromise, you know.
Slowbro has 10 base points more SP ATk than Lugia, which really isn't a big difference at all when there's no investment. His job isn't to be hurting stuff anyway.
Lugia physical bulk is greater than Slowbro's in case you were wondering. They have the same base Def, but Lugia has more HP. So that point doesn't count at all.
Slowbro does not have access to all 5 forms of status. You can switch out after he Yawns you, preventing the sleep. He relies on hax for Burn and Freeze, and when he doesn't get the hax, then he just has to suck it up. Lugia has Thunder Wave and Toxic, which are exactly what Slowbro has to reliably inflict status.
Roar is not an advantage of Slowbro's because Lugia has Whirlwind.
Trick is not an advantage of Slowbro's because Lugia gets Trick as well.
I honestly can't reply to your Overcoat Reuniclus thing. I don't think there's a response to it at all. Let's just say it takes all my self-restraint to avoid putting it in my sig.
"Zekrom should be in OU. It has literally no boosting moves (outside of the lulzy Hone Claws), and that means that it's only boosts come from a Choice item or LO. It's Attack seems absurd, but we've seen from Chandelure that a high stat does not automatically make something broken. Haxorus also proves this point, and it is theoretically even better, because it has Dragon Dance and Swords Dance to boost its stats. We know from experience that a Pokemon which cannot boost itself very rarely sweeps. It will be the same with Zekrom, especially given its mediocre 90 base Speed, which is out-sped by many things. Zekrom may punch holes in a team, but its sweeping potential is actually very small. On top of that, Zekrom is weak to Ground, meaning that it gets shit on by Landorus, Garchomp, and Excadrill, all of which out-speed Zekrom as well. Zekrom is weak to Dragon, which is carried by Latias, Latios, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Salamence, and Garchomp, all of whom out-speed Zekrom as well, making them excellent checks. Furthermore, Zekrom has a hard counter in Ferrothorn, who walls its Dual STAB. Zekrom's relatively shallow movepool almost completely limits it to straight-up offensive sets, which makes Zekrom very predictable. Zekrom may hit like a truck, but its potential is much lower than its stats imply, due to limited movepool, low Speed, and bad defensive typing. Therefore, I believe that Zekrom would be a valuable addition to OU, and deserves a test."
^See what I did there, JTSwift? I didn't even say everything I had in mind.
You may be able to "recreate" our arguments, but we can do the same to yours just as easily.
JTSwift, I respect your opinion, even though it obviously doesn't seem that way. But the thing is, Lugia is Uber at the moment. Unfortunately, that means that the burden of convincing is on your shoulders. That's just a result of being on the side which desires change. Perhaps it shouldn't necessarily be that way, but it is (although, to be fair, that way has worked pretty well so far).
JTSwift, how do you know that this isn't going to be like the Giratina thing? You thought that was a good idea at the time, but you've given up on it since then. How do you know you won't decide Lugia should stay Uber, just like you did before?
Perhaps once the metagame settles down, and we get rid of all the stuff that has to go, then the general opinion will be different. Perhaps once we have a metagame which everyone (or at least the majority of people) think is balanced, then a test would happen. But right now, you're just not going to get enough support it to happen, I'm sorry to say. But hey, that'll give you time to think on this, and make sure you're really certain, which I talked about above^, so it's not all bad.
My example was ridiculous wasn't it?
But that's almost exactly what you said!
So I'll ask again: Why would Lugia switch into those kinds of attacks???
Not many pokes are OHKOed outside of a sweep. However, the thing is that you pretty much need to be able to 2HKO it, or otherwise it can alternate between Roost and some other move (Whirlwind, Calm Mind, whatever move works) and stall you out.JTSwift said:
I simply want to know how many Pokemon can come in on Lugia and take Lugia out. Out of OU, how many Pokemon could actually switch in and immediately threaten Lugia (assuming they get a free switch-in)???
If the answer is a significant number, then I'll start to sway toward your side of the argument. But I'm not convinced yet, because any Pokemon, broken or not, would fall to moves like the ones you calc'ed (which were, as I've said, boosted, SE, and STAB).
I didn't mean to be rude in my last response, but I don't... I just... *sigh* nvm.JTSwift said:
The thing about Reuniclus is that he's so slow that he get's out-sped by pretty much every wall, which makes him much easier to deal with. Lugia, on other hand, can Earth Power Jirachi after a few CM's, before it gets Paralyzed and Flinched to death. Lugia can Roost before the Tyranitar uses Stone Edge, and leave itself with enough health left to CM on the next one.
Also, Lugia is bulkier on both sides, which is a small but still noticeable advantage.
Now, I'll admit, Reuniclus is almost perfectly made for CM'ing. It is currently the pinnacle of CM'ing 'mons. But I honestly think Lugia's advantages would make it just as good, if not better, than Reuniclus.
The thing is, though, about Sigilyph that Lugia doesn't need Flame Orb to beat Tyranitar. The only Tyranitar set which stands a chance at beating Lugia is BandTar, which is probably the third or fourth most common set right now. Besides, Lugia can Roost-Stall Stone Edge out of PP, and Pursuit only 3HKOes if Lugia stays in.
Lugia also has CM, Roost, Whirlwind, and Screens, so none of those moves actually give Sigilyph an advantage.
Stored Power requires you to get a lot of boosts to get enough power to sweep (and to make it worth the terrible typing that it has). That's more of a risk-vsreward thing, as you'll have to think when teambuilding "How can I support this thing to get myself enough boosts?"
Hypnosis has extremely poor accuracy and Bronzong is the only Pokemon in OU which even lists it as an option on any set. It's just not that great of a move (unless you have something like Lead Gengar, which is an entirely different scenario).
Air Slash has incredibly mediocre power. So no, that doesn't give Sigilyph "more attacking prowess".
Sigilyph has to run Speed in order to out-run all Turanitar so that it can burn them first. Lugia doesn't.
Most of the things you listed for Sigilyph wouldn't even be used on a CM set, making them moot points.
And, let's not forget, Lugia is much bulkier than Sigilyph.
Aeroblast + Earth Power is not an "awful offensive combo". ONly 3 Pokemon in OU resist it: Thundurus (who can't switch in because Lugia tanks his unboosted hits, while Thundurus gets wrecked due to his frailty), Bronzong (whose attacks literally can't do shit to Lugia), and Skarmory (whose only hope is to phaze you, so he loses in a last-Pokemon scenario).
And yes, you can use up all of your Aeroblasts. Oh well, I guess Terrakion sucks because Close Combat only has 8 PP. Oh well, I guess Infernape sucks because Fire Blast only has 8 PP. Oh well, I guess Reuniclus sucks because Focus Blast on has 8 PP. See where I'm going with this?
OMG stall teams can wear it down! Too bad it wrecks balanced much more than Reuniclus or Sigilyph. Magic Guard is not required for a good CM'er. Sigilyph is in UU, while other CM'ers are in OU, which just helps prove that.
News Flash: Reuniclus and Sigilyph also don't have Whirlwind on their CM sets!!! Reuniclus doesn't have status on its CM set!!!
Much better!
However, I feel that it could be improved even more by saying something like this: " There have been some really good counter arguments and I can see where people are coming from, but nobody wants a test because they disagree with me and believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Lugia would break OU. Therefore, they do not want to use one of our limited months of testing on this the chance (which they believe to be infinitesimal) that Lugia may fit into OU."
See, with my example, you provide the other side's point of view, whilst still providing your own (which is that none of us can be 100% certain). Showing both sides is the best way to compromise, you know.
Lugia has reliable reovery as well.
Slowbro has 10 base points more SP ATk than Lugia, which really isn't a big difference at all when there's no investment. His job isn't to be hurting stuff anyway.
Lugia physical bulk is greater than Slowbro's in case you were wondering. They have the same base Def, but Lugia has more HP. So that point doesn't count at all.
Slowbro does not have access to all 5 forms of status. You can switch out after he Yawns you, preventing the sleep. He relies on hax for Burn and Freeze, and when he doesn't get the hax, then he just has to suck it up. Lugia has Thunder Wave and Toxic, which are exactly what Slowbro has to reliably inflict status.
Roar is not an advantage of Slowbro's because Lugia has Whirlwind.
Trick is not an advantage of Slowbro's because Lugia gets Trick as well.
"Who I am" is a man, with an opinion on someone else's credibility.JTSwift said:
I honestly can't reply to your Overcoat Reuniclus thing. I don't think there's a response to it at all. Let's just say it takes all my self-restraint to avoid putting it in my sig.
Not that Celebi would be in the Uber tier, but okay. Let's see your example.JTSwift said:
This is a good example. Now let me show you one.JTSwift said:
"Zekrom should be in OU. It has literally no boosting moves (outside of the lulzy Hone Claws), and that means that it's only boosts come from a Choice item or LO. It's Attack seems absurd, but we've seen from Chandelure that a high stat does not automatically make something broken. Haxorus also proves this point, and it is theoretically even better, because it has Dragon Dance and Swords Dance to boost its stats. We know from experience that a Pokemon which cannot boost itself very rarely sweeps. It will be the same with Zekrom, especially given its mediocre 90 base Speed, which is out-sped by many things. Zekrom may punch holes in a team, but its sweeping potential is actually very small. On top of that, Zekrom is weak to Ground, meaning that it gets shit on by Landorus, Garchomp, and Excadrill, all of which out-speed Zekrom as well. Zekrom is weak to Dragon, which is carried by Latias, Latios, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Salamence, and Garchomp, all of whom out-speed Zekrom as well, making them excellent checks. Furthermore, Zekrom has a hard counter in Ferrothorn, who walls its Dual STAB. Zekrom's relatively shallow movepool almost completely limits it to straight-up offensive sets, which makes Zekrom very predictable. Zekrom may hit like a truck, but its potential is much lower than its stats imply, due to limited movepool, low Speed, and bad defensive typing. Therefore, I believe that Zekrom would be a valuable addition to OU, and deserves a test."
^See what I did there, JTSwift? I didn't even say everything I had in mind.
You may be able to "recreate" our arguments, but we can do the same to yours just as easily.
See above. This is a part of what I just responded to, so...JTSwift said:
"The problem is that a lot of Pokemon sound OU on paper..."JTSwift said:
JTSwift, I respect your opinion, even though it obviously doesn't seem that way. But the thing is, Lugia is Uber at the moment. Unfortunately, that means that the burden of convincing is on your shoulders. That's just a result of being on the side which desires change. Perhaps it shouldn't necessarily be that way, but it is (although, to be fair, that way has worked pretty well so far).
JTSwift, how do you know that this isn't going to be like the Giratina thing? You thought that was a good idea at the time, but you've given up on it since then. How do you know you won't decide Lugia should stay Uber, just like you did before?
Perhaps once the metagame settles down, and we get rid of all the stuff that has to go, then the general opinion will be different. Perhaps once we have a metagame which everyone (or at least the majority of people) think is balanced, then a test would happen. But right now, you're just not going to get enough support it to happen, I'm sorry to say. But hey, that'll give you time to think on this, and make sure you're really certain, which I talked about above^, so it's not all bad.
Alright. In that case, I'll be done as well.JTSwift said:
whatever the difference in power is just 5 ponits...
this is your opinion..hp fire's only purpose is beating ferrothorn.
i don't mean that it isn't important i am jst saying that he is the only target which doesn't gets hit for better amounts with your other moves.ice beam on the other way is way stronger and kills dragons and other stuff like gyarados.
for me considering that latios is number six in usage and that there also hydreigon,dragonite,haxorus,latias,salamence and guyarados that are covered by ice beam but not by hp fire,the best choice seems to be ice beam.
ferrothorn also is much easier to trap and kill than all of these things i mentioned 'cause he can be trapped by magnezone(except from latios who gets fucked up by pursuit).also manaphy needs ferrothorn to be in 50% or less since he can deal 50% damage at +3.this is not so hard to do when all the meta revolves around him...
i wasn't in any way stacking the calcs in my favour...i just did the normal!i compared the stroner moves with the stronger and the weaker with the weaker!so manaphys moves go like this sorted by power:surf,ice beam,energy ball.
and mew's moves go like this sorted by power:
psychic/psycho shock,fire blast,aura shpere!
do you get it now???
i just compared the moves that were of equal power level in each poke.
so again with my moveset every single move of manaphy has greater power than each single respective move of mew!so he is stronger,with better stab and better typing!
i don't care.i just started this discussion with you 'cause you said that he was stronger than him which just isn't true.and also you underastimate manaphy very very much...
let's not discuss irrelevant points.our discussion is about mew and manaphy!
again i showed you that with the right set(ice beam,surf,energy ball) manaphy beats mew in every single aspect...
same as above!
1)i hope that you finally understand what i did with the calcs...
2)i tried to convince you that ice beam is better!if you don't agree that's fine but if you do agree i hope that you can now realize how much better of a special sweeper manaphy is!
you also still don't get what i meant and since we have a difficulty in understanding each other in this paragraph i will stop!
and i don't care about the other pokes.as i told you before i started this discussion to show you how much better of a sweeper manphy is than mew and to also convince you to not underastimate manaphy so much...
that's why i am saying you are underastimating him a lot!
manaphy has great typing,great speed,great bulk, perfect coverage with 3 moves(ice,grass and water give perfect coverage),and a +3 boosting move to his mediocre 100 sp.atc!
i really cannot understand why you belive that manphy would suck so much in ou???
i am not saying he would be overpowered but i belive that he would make for a very good sweeper.
yes ferrothorn is a bump but it's one of the very very few counters that manphy has so it's ok.there are still a lot of ways to get past him...
i see man but you know that you are exaggerating!
i din't make any crazy statement and i think that i was quite logical and reasonable at my claims...
of 'course i cannot exactly determine its usage by theory only,but everyone can just think the area of usage in which manaphy would more or less be with all its above traits that i told you!
f.e.even though i have no evidence i can say that kyogre doesn't fit in the ou metagame simply because of its stats,movepool,typing and ability!
the same happened also in the beggining of the bw metagame!more of the great new threats were found before any playtesting 'cause sometimes theory is enough!
so again i think that i can make a claim like the one i did before given manaphy's movepool,stats,typing and ability...!
i showed you why it wasn't!
yes it is a little but i still want to convince you about manaphy 'cause it is a shame to underastimate such a great poke...
i already answered to all these above...
sry for tiring you but arguing sometimes leads there.and i didn't tell that more power and stab always make something not outclassed.we were talking about two pokes with exactly same roles:special sweepers with identical stats and the abilty to raise their sp.atc.in this case when the one has better coverage(mew moveset is resisted by starmie,slowbro,latios,latias),more power and better typing, then he is the superior one!
of 'course it is relevant!and you know that it is!
no matter which is you role,typing always is relevant!even more if you are a bulky sweeper like mew and manaphy!
so you are saying that garchomps great typing doesn't help it right?
great typing matters in an offensive poke, 'cause it gives you the oportunities to setup,it allows you to take priority and determines what kills you and in how many hits.so i take your saying that typing doesn't matter as a joke and i continue...
1)manaphy has greater stab,greater coverage(this is a matter of opinion depending on the moveset) and greater power!
2)i don't really care...i just wanted to show you that manaphy is generally a great sweeper and nowhere near mews territory
3)this is true!i also agree about retesting manaphy in a drizzle-less metagame but i don't think that this will happen anytime soon..
--------------------
i agree about going after the sand sweepers if they prove broken but i disagree about drizzle and sun...i think that a lot of people wouldn't like them banned and that they are a great addition to the metagame,making it more diverse and enjoyable!
So, the suspects are around again... some old faces, some new. Here's my opinions, and then my predictions:
Non-Pokemon:
Drizzle:
Opinion
Broken. The benifits it grants a massive varity of pokemon is just too much, from boosting the effectivness of one of the best offensive types in the game, to removing a weakness from the best defensive type. They's not even going into 100% accurate Thunders and Hurricanes. Not to mention the whole point of the SS+Drizzle ban was to see if Drizzle was broken, not as a permenant solution.
The metagame is centralised around Drizzle, it's the elephant in the room, like Salamence was in 4th Gen. [It seemed OK, but only because most players ran Scizor, and almost all ran Stealth Rock.]
Prediction:
It'll be banned this time, almost certainly. If not, it'll get a majority.
Drought:
Opinion
Broken as well, but not as badly as Drizzle is.
Again, massive benifits to many pokemon, but at least these benifits come with drawbacks that can exploited, such as Grass types gaining a bigger weakness to Fire. In addittion, Chlorophill sweepers don't get Double STAB, but that dosen't stop Sarfed Fire types from obliterateing everything.
Prediction:
Will probobly get off the hook. To be fair, Drought hasn't had a fair run in OU.
Sand Stream:
Opinion:
Sand is a different story. The only benifit Sand itself brings is a x1.5 Sp.Def boost to Rock types, and only two rock types can really abuse that, Craydily and Tyranitar, although one could argue that Terrakion is a borderline case.
The issue with Sand is two abusers, Garchomp, who's suspect anyway, and Excadrill... who's also suspect. Landrous can abuse it too... but he seems unpopular for some reason, so probobly isn't that good, or is overshadowed. I haven't ran a Sand Team.
In my opinion, the problem lies with Garchomp and Excadrill, not Sand Stream.
Prediction:
Many people accept Sand as part of the metagame, especially Gen 4 players, and will be hesitant to ban it.I'm predicting Sand Stream will remain OU.
Tl;Dr:
Drizzle: Uber
Drought: I want Uber but probobly will be OU
Sand Stream: OU
Pokemon Suspects:
Deoxys-E
Opinion:
In my opinion, Deo-E isn't broken. They're Priority Taunt if you want hazards off, and, in my opinion Ferrothorn's a far better hazard layer, and can do far more if it's taunted with his Base 120 STABS.
Deo-E sets up hazards. That's it. Ferrothorn sets up hazards, walls all day, causes passive damage like mad, and can actually do damage. All with the same set [SR or Spikes/Leech Seed/Gyro Ball/Power Whip]
Prediction:
I predict Ou by a large margin, but that might just be my Ferrothorn opinion creeping in.
Latios:
Opinion:
I've been against this thing in OU since day 1. I call it the D-2 bomber, because next to nothing can withstand it's Draco Meteors, besides Ferrothorn [Solve a broken mon with another one], Brongzong, who has no recovery, Tyranitar, who may lose Sand Stream, Blissey/Chansey, or Sp.Def Jirachi.
And four of them dislike Surf. Which is often Rain-Boosted.
All of them dislike TrickSpecs too, except some weird Special attcking Sp.Def Jirachi.
There is no counter to Latios. What can take the D-2 bomb, dislikes Surf or Trick. What can take surf or Trick, dies to the D-2.
Prediction:
I'm predicting it'll go to Uber. It got a majority last round, and nothing's changed to make it less broken. However, if Drizzle goes, that might keep it OU, because it won't have pusedo-STAB Surf anymore.
Garchomp:
Opinion:
I've sort of touched on this in the sand paragraph. A single miss against Subchomp will cost you several pokemon. No two ways about it. Garchomp also works brilliantly outside of weather. For some reason, no-one expects me to clean teams with ScarfChomp nowadays, and send in their Specs Latios, only to get OHKO'ed.
That's the thing, Garchomp can pull off several sets. From the intense speed of ScarfChomp, to the raw might of CB Chomp, to the coverage of SD Chomp [With Yache, Lum, Life Orb, Lefties and even Haban varients!], and the hax-abuseing, status-immune SubChomp. Guessing the wrong set WILL net Garchomp a KO, nine times out of ten, and there is nothing that can answer to every single possible Garchomp.
Prediction:
Sand Veil has caused enough controversy this round, and it'll probobly be Garchomp that kicks the bucket to keep Sand in. Uber.
Thunderus:
I use Thunderus, albeit, an Anti-Lead Thunderus with Taunt/NP/Thunderbolt/HP Ice or Focus Blast, team-dependant.
It's pretty good, but not broken, IMO. That said, I don't run a sweeper Thunderus. I don't run three attacks, and I don't run Life Orb [I run sash because I lead with Thunderus 90% of the time to prevent hazards]
Ive hever had much trouble with Thunderus. But that's because I revenge kill it with Azumarill or ScarfChomp.
Prediction:
In all honesty... I can't call it. I don't have enough experiance with Sweeper Thunderus myself, and I always carry a check [Although not with Thunderus in mind, Scarfchomp is for Latios, and Azumarill is for Ferro/Volcarona/Excadrill]
Excadrill:
Again, I very rarely get swept. I bring in Azumarill on the SD [They ALWAYS SD, and if they don't Azumarill survives anyway]. Azumarill kills Excadrill, or forces it out taking only hazard damage which is easily wished off later.
However, I know how threatening Excadrill is, from the five times I've been swept by someone who actually had the foresight to remove Azumarill from play before they sent in Excadrill.
Basically, Excadrill forces you to run Skarm, Gliscor, Weather other than Sand, Azumarill, or Conkeldurr. Or you lose. Simple as that.
Despite my lack of losing to Excadrill, I'd vote it Uber.
Prediction:
This is Excadrill's 4th time up. I doubt it'll change, OU.
Manaphy:
As I predict Rain to go, Manaphy would become suspect. However, I have very little experiance with Manaphy. It's still bulky as anything, and Tail Glow is still +3. However, I feel that ChestoRest Calm Mind is the better choice...
Despite that, Manaphy could probobly sit nicely in OU. If Drizzle goes.
Prediction:
OU if Rain goes.
Tl;DR
Deo-E: OU
Latios: Uber
Garchomp: Uber
Thunderus: OU or Auto-suspect
Excadrill: OU
Manaphy: OU
Non-Pokemon:
Drizzle:
Opinion
Broken. The benifits it grants a massive varity of pokemon is just too much, from boosting the effectivness of one of the best offensive types in the game, to removing a weakness from the best defensive type. They's not even going into 100% accurate Thunders and Hurricanes. Not to mention the whole point of the SS+Drizzle ban was to see if Drizzle was broken, not as a permenant solution.
The metagame is centralised around Drizzle, it's the elephant in the room, like Salamence was in 4th Gen. [It seemed OK, but only because most players ran Scizor, and almost all ran Stealth Rock.]
Prediction:
It'll be banned this time, almost certainly. If not, it'll get a majority.
Drought:
Opinion
Broken as well, but not as badly as Drizzle is.
Again, massive benifits to many pokemon, but at least these benifits come with drawbacks that can exploited, such as Grass types gaining a bigger weakness to Fire. In addittion, Chlorophill sweepers don't get Double STAB, but that dosen't stop Sarfed Fire types from obliterateing everything.
Prediction:
Will probobly get off the hook. To be fair, Drought hasn't had a fair run in OU.
Sand Stream:
Opinion:
Sand is a different story. The only benifit Sand itself brings is a x1.5 Sp.Def boost to Rock types, and only two rock types can really abuse that, Craydily and Tyranitar, although one could argue that Terrakion is a borderline case.
The issue with Sand is two abusers, Garchomp, who's suspect anyway, and Excadrill... who's also suspect. Landrous can abuse it too... but he seems unpopular for some reason, so probobly isn't that good, or is overshadowed. I haven't ran a Sand Team.
In my opinion, the problem lies with Garchomp and Excadrill, not Sand Stream.
Prediction:
Many people accept Sand as part of the metagame, especially Gen 4 players, and will be hesitant to ban it.I'm predicting Sand Stream will remain OU.
Tl;Dr:
Drizzle: Uber
Drought: I want Uber but probobly will be OU
Sand Stream: OU
Pokemon Suspects:
Deoxys-E
Opinion:
In my opinion, Deo-E isn't broken. They're Priority Taunt if you want hazards off, and, in my opinion Ferrothorn's a far better hazard layer, and can do far more if it's taunted with his Base 120 STABS.
Deo-E sets up hazards. That's it. Ferrothorn sets up hazards, walls all day, causes passive damage like mad, and can actually do damage. All with the same set [SR or Spikes/Leech Seed/Gyro Ball/Power Whip]
Prediction:
I predict Ou by a large margin, but that might just be my Ferrothorn opinion creeping in.
Latios:
Opinion:
I've been against this thing in OU since day 1. I call it the D-2 bomber, because next to nothing can withstand it's Draco Meteors, besides Ferrothorn [Solve a broken mon with another one], Brongzong, who has no recovery, Tyranitar, who may lose Sand Stream, Blissey/Chansey, or Sp.Def Jirachi.
And four of them dislike Surf. Which is often Rain-Boosted.
All of them dislike TrickSpecs too, except some weird Special attcking Sp.Def Jirachi.
There is no counter to Latios. What can take the D-2 bomb, dislikes Surf or Trick. What can take surf or Trick, dies to the D-2.
Prediction:
I'm predicting it'll go to Uber. It got a majority last round, and nothing's changed to make it less broken. However, if Drizzle goes, that might keep it OU, because it won't have pusedo-STAB Surf anymore.
Garchomp:
Opinion:
I've sort of touched on this in the sand paragraph. A single miss against Subchomp will cost you several pokemon. No two ways about it. Garchomp also works brilliantly outside of weather. For some reason, no-one expects me to clean teams with ScarfChomp nowadays, and send in their Specs Latios, only to get OHKO'ed.
That's the thing, Garchomp can pull off several sets. From the intense speed of ScarfChomp, to the raw might of CB Chomp, to the coverage of SD Chomp [With Yache, Lum, Life Orb, Lefties and even Haban varients!], and the hax-abuseing, status-immune SubChomp. Guessing the wrong set WILL net Garchomp a KO, nine times out of ten, and there is nothing that can answer to every single possible Garchomp.
Prediction:
Sand Veil has caused enough controversy this round, and it'll probobly be Garchomp that kicks the bucket to keep Sand in. Uber.
Thunderus:
I use Thunderus, albeit, an Anti-Lead Thunderus with Taunt/NP/Thunderbolt/HP Ice or Focus Blast, team-dependant.
It's pretty good, but not broken, IMO. That said, I don't run a sweeper Thunderus. I don't run three attacks, and I don't run Life Orb [I run sash because I lead with Thunderus 90% of the time to prevent hazards]
Ive hever had much trouble with Thunderus. But that's because I revenge kill it with Azumarill or ScarfChomp.
Prediction:
In all honesty... I can't call it. I don't have enough experiance with Sweeper Thunderus myself, and I always carry a check [Although not with Thunderus in mind, Scarfchomp is for Latios, and Azumarill is for Ferro/Volcarona/Excadrill]
Excadrill:
Again, I very rarely get swept. I bring in Azumarill on the SD [They ALWAYS SD, and if they don't Azumarill survives anyway]. Azumarill kills Excadrill, or forces it out taking only hazard damage which is easily wished off later.
However, I know how threatening Excadrill is, from the five times I've been swept by someone who actually had the foresight to remove Azumarill from play before they sent in Excadrill.
Basically, Excadrill forces you to run Skarm, Gliscor, Weather other than Sand, Azumarill, or Conkeldurr. Or you lose. Simple as that.
Despite my lack of losing to Excadrill, I'd vote it Uber.
Prediction:
This is Excadrill's 4th time up. I doubt it'll change, OU.
Manaphy:
As I predict Rain to go, Manaphy would become suspect. However, I have very little experiance with Manaphy. It's still bulky as anything, and Tail Glow is still +3. However, I feel that ChestoRest Calm Mind is the better choice...
Despite that, Manaphy could probobly sit nicely in OU. If Drizzle goes.
Prediction:
OU if Rain goes.
Tl;DR
Deo-E: OU
Latios: Uber
Garchomp: Uber
Thunderus: OU or Auto-suspect
Excadrill: OU
Manaphy: OU
To be fair, a prediction is just a smart guess and shouldn't be used in an argument.
BTW Soundproof. Roar can't Phaze everything while Whirlwind can.
Also you give up because you know you're wrong lololol
Post DM Specs isn't -1, it's half of x1.5, which is x0.75, whereas -1 is x0.66
@Raikaria
Omg. I actually agree with everything you have said. (Both your opinion and predictions.)
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Anyway, about the whole Lugia, Manaphy vs Mew discussions going on. I think we should just try and drop those debates and focus on something more hmm useful of our time.
I would like to know how you all feel about Latios in general because after all, it is one of the nominations and no one has really discussed it (other than the discussion about whether or not it can kill Volcarona) in full detail yet.
Omg. I actually agree with everything you have said. (Both your opinion and predictions.)
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Anyway, about the whole Lugia, Manaphy vs Mew discussions going on. I think we should just try and drop those debates and focus on something more hmm useful of our time.
I would like to know how you all feel about Latios in general because after all, it is one of the nominations and no one has really discussed it (other than the discussion about whether or not it can kill Volcarona) in full detail yet.
Remove the opponent's physical walls, get a free turn, send Haxorus with Outrage/Earthquake/Brick Break/DD, DD, and gg.
Latios
Personally, I'd like to see this thing get banned. Drago Specs is a deadly threat to any Pokemon other than Blissey/Tyranitar/Steel Types. The fact is, there just isn't enough safe switch-ins and this therefore means you usually have to sacrifice a Pokemon in order to try and revenge kill it. (Not the best way to kill something.) Additionally, it is not priority weak and it resists both aqua jet and mach punch.
@Raikaria
The only tiny thing I don't completely agree with you in your argument is,
'However, if Drizzle goes, that might keep it OU, because it won't have pusedo-STAB Surf anymore.'
Other than Tyranitar, I think HP-Fire is generally more threatening on Latios. It hits Ferrothorn, Jirachi and Brongzong super-effectively and with Drizzle banned from OU, Latios doesn't have to worry about it's hidden power fire being weakened. I therefore think that Latios will become even more of a threat once Drizzle gets banned.
Personally, I'd like to see this thing get banned. Drago Specs is a deadly threat to any Pokemon other than Blissey/Tyranitar/Steel Types. The fact is, there just isn't enough safe switch-ins and this therefore means you usually have to sacrifice a Pokemon in order to try and revenge kill it. (Not the best way to kill something.) Additionally, it is not priority weak and it resists both aqua jet and mach punch.
@Raikaria
The only tiny thing I don't completely agree with you in your argument is,
'However, if Drizzle goes, that might keep it OU, because it won't have pusedo-STAB Surf anymore.'
Other than Tyranitar, I think HP-Fire is generally more threatening on Latios. It hits Ferrothorn, Jirachi and Brongzong super-effectively and with Drizzle banned from OU, Latios doesn't have to worry about it's hidden power fire being weakened. I therefore think that Latios will become even more of a threat once Drizzle gets banned.
I don't know about Latios. I haven't really laddered at all this generation, so I can only go off of wifi battles I've had. From my limited experience with Latios, it's one of the bigger threats to the stall teams I've tried. There isn't much that likes to switch in on any Specs boosted attack of his, and a bad prediction often means losing a valuable wall/support pokemon. Not to mention the fact that he's immune to (Toxic) Spikes and only takes neutral damage from SR, making it pretty difficult to wear him down if I can't get a toxic off on him.
Of course, just because it's hard to stall doesn't mean it should be banned (I'm looking at you, Reuniclus >_>). I've never run into one when I wasn't using a stall team, so I don't know how well offensive teams handle him.
Of course, just because it's hard to stall doesn't mean it should be banned (I'm looking at you, Reuniclus >_>). I've never run into one when I wasn't using a stall team, so I don't know how well offensive teams handle him.
I think Specially defensive Heatran under the Sun would do just swell against Latios, lol!
Aldaron's Proposal is also not perfect. The cost - affected the viability of "non-broken" Swift Swimmers. I would have preferred going through my proposal and Suspect Testing individual Swift Swimmers, such as Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops. Only if we hit a certain cap # - say banning more than 5 Swift Swimmers, would I consider enough justification to implement Aldaron's Proposal.
The benefit of banning 5 or less Swift Swimmers - Rain playstyle remains and 6 or more viable Swift Swimmers would have seen play in OU.
The cost of banning 5 or less Swift Swimmers - the loss of those selected Swift Simmers.
Aldaron's Proposal kept the Rain playstyle intact at a cost of hampering all the Swift Swimmers, even the non-broken ones. If we ended up banning more than 5 Swift Swimmers, though, then there would actually be less viable Swift Swimmers benefiting than the Swift Swimmers being banned, so the cost then actually becomes greater than the benefit. At that point, I believe that it would have been sufficient to say that Swift Swim + Drizzle are the main denominator and should be banned.
At this stage, we could have also simply banned Swift Swim, the abused Ability. That would have a cost of banishing 4 unbroken Pokemon to Ubers, but at the benefit of preserving an entire playstyle. Arguably, Aldaron's Proposal would be the preferable option - since it minimizes the huge cost (banning 4 Pokemon), and logically-speaking Swift Swim does nothing without Rain.
The benefit of banning Drizzle / Politoed - no Activated Swift Swimmers or Hydration on Manaphy. The cost of banning Drizzle / Politoed - A loss of an entire playstyle - not only the "broken" Swift Swimmers get nerfed, but also the other "nonbroken" Hydration, Dry Skin, and other users benefited from Rain. That was the BIGGEST cost in round 2. Although Aldaron's Proposal may not have been the most appropriate clause at the time, it was much better than a Drizzle / Politoed ban, that had considerably many more drawbacks.
I personally find Aldaron's Proposal a victory, since it helped us identify that Drizzle itself was truly problematic (although this is still uncertain to determine without the voting results).
Smash + Pass, I argue, is more fitting than Aldaron's Proposal. For instance, all the Pokemon that has it is considered broken, so just ban Smash + Pass.
The benfit of Smash + Pass clause - removal of Smash Pass
The cost of Smash + Pass clause - none?
- seriously this is win-win - no drawbacks.
The benfit of banning Smeargle, Huntail, + Gorebyss - removal of Smash Pash
The cost - removal of 3 Pokemon
NOTE: This is not an argument of whether or not Smash + Pass breaks the metagame. It's not nominated for voting, so it's irrelevant. I am more concerned that if we decide that the strategy is a problem in Round 5, what do we nominate? Shell Smash + Baton Pass or 3 Pokemon?
After much discussion and thinking over I have a slight change of heart. It is all about benefit-cost analysis. Simplicity > Complexity, and for complex ban to be worth it, it must have a considerable benfit : cost ratio. I now do see that Sand Veil + Sandstream proposal of mine was a huge stretch. The benefit - Garchomp remains without Sand Veil. The cost - needlessly hampering the use of other Sand Streamers in conjunction with Ttar (ie. Gliscor with Roost). Blaziken + Speed Boost clause's only benefit was to remain Blaze Blaziken in OU, and such isolated case is not a sufficient reason to institute a Complex Ban.Nkululeko said:
Aldaron's Proposal is also not perfect. The cost - affected the viability of "non-broken" Swift Swimmers. I would have preferred going through my proposal and Suspect Testing individual Swift Swimmers, such as Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops. Only if we hit a certain cap # - say banning more than 5 Swift Swimmers, would I consider enough justification to implement Aldaron's Proposal.
The benefit of banning 5 or less Swift Swimmers - Rain playstyle remains and 6 or more viable Swift Swimmers would have seen play in OU.
The cost of banning 5 or less Swift Swimmers - the loss of those selected Swift Simmers.
Aldaron's Proposal kept the Rain playstyle intact at a cost of hampering all the Swift Swimmers, even the non-broken ones. If we ended up banning more than 5 Swift Swimmers, though, then there would actually be less viable Swift Swimmers benefiting than the Swift Swimmers being banned, so the cost then actually becomes greater than the benefit. At that point, I believe that it would have been sufficient to say that Swift Swim + Drizzle are the main denominator and should be banned.
At this stage, we could have also simply banned Swift Swim, the abused Ability. That would have a cost of banishing 4 unbroken Pokemon to Ubers, but at the benefit of preserving an entire playstyle. Arguably, Aldaron's Proposal would be the preferable option - since it minimizes the huge cost (banning 4 Pokemon), and logically-speaking Swift Swim does nothing without Rain.
The benefit of banning Drizzle / Politoed - no Activated Swift Swimmers or Hydration on Manaphy. The cost of banning Drizzle / Politoed - A loss of an entire playstyle - not only the "broken" Swift Swimmers get nerfed, but also the other "nonbroken" Hydration, Dry Skin, and other users benefited from Rain. That was the BIGGEST cost in round 2. Although Aldaron's Proposal may not have been the most appropriate clause at the time, it was much better than a Drizzle / Politoed ban, that had considerably many more drawbacks.
I personally find Aldaron's Proposal a victory, since it helped us identify that Drizzle itself was truly problematic (although this is still uncertain to determine without the voting results).
Smash + Pass, I argue, is more fitting than Aldaron's Proposal. For instance, all the Pokemon that has it is considered broken, so just ban Smash + Pass.
The benfit of Smash + Pass clause - removal of Smash Pass
The cost of Smash + Pass clause - none?
- seriously this is win-win - no drawbacks.
The benfit of banning Smeargle, Huntail, + Gorebyss - removal of Smash Pash
The cost - removal of 3 Pokemon
NOTE: This is not an argument of whether or not Smash + Pass breaks the metagame. It's not nominated for voting, so it's irrelevant. I am more concerned that if we decide that the strategy is a problem in Round 5, what do we nominate? Shell Smash + Baton Pass or 3 Pokemon?
On Smashpass - wouldn't it be easier to simply ban the move Shell Smash?
It doesn't need to be passed. It turns lame Huntail and Cloyster into sweepers. +6 total stats with one turn of setup on things with over 100 base defense is ridiculous.
It's the exact same as Baton Pass teams in RS, a good team can handle them, but it gets annoying and prejudice the metagame as a whole.
It doesn't need to be passed. It turns lame Huntail and Cloyster into sweepers. +6 total stats with one turn of setup on things with over 100 base defense is ridiculous.
It's the exact same as Baton Pass teams in RS, a good team can handle them, but it gets annoying and prejudice the metagame as a whole.
It's more than easy enough to take out a Shell Smasher before he gets to even boost up, and it's still easy after a boost if you have a priority move or someone who can handle a boosted move. Cloyster's got a high defense but his special defense is meh, if I'm not mistaken, and it's not difficult to take him out before he even gets to Shell Smash. After one Shell Smash, his defenses are shot (if he didn't use a White Herb), so priority would most likely take him out. And +6 stats with one turn is misleading. It's +2 to three stats, along with -1 to two stats. If you're gonna go ahead and add up the boosts to different stats, you have to add the negative boosts as well. It also has a fairly small distribution.
What's wrong with a move boosting the otherwise plain Huntail and Cloyster? They need all the help they can get and it's still plenty easy to counter them. I don't think Shell Smash needs to be banned. The only combo I see that's hard to deal with (for me at least) is a Smeargle with Spore, Shell Smash, and Baton Pass. Not that we should ban Smeargle, but that's the only major trouble I've had with Shell Smash at all.
Draco Meteor is also the only threatening move Specs Latios can really dish out, and it comes with a serious drawback. You want Latios checks? Tyranitar, Jirachi, Scizor, Metagross, Ferrothorn, Empoleon, Blissey, Heatran...the list goes on.
"Oh but HP Fire/Surf!"
I'll say this and put it in bold since some people seem to think Latios is a special case. Being forced to run coverage moves for your checks does not automatically make you broken.
Water-types use Ice Beam for Grass-types...so water type pokemon must be broken because they can kill the pokemon that are supposed to check them.
Celebi carries HP Fire for Scizor/Ferrothorn. Oh no Celebi is broken because even if you switch in Scizor and Ferrothorn it can HP Fire and still win!
Reuniclus used Focus Blast on Tyranitar. OMG Reuniclus is the most broken thing ever because it carries a move to deal with its checks!
People need to get the hell over Latios' access to coverage moves, because they don't realize that if it is using Surf/HP Fire, it isn't unleashing that powerful Specs DM. Even worse is the argument that Latios is broken because Drizzle boosts its Surf. Seriously, lol.
Latios can be revenged like other pokemon. Latios dislikes priority like other pokemon. Latios has weaknesses like other pokemon. Latios does not resist Stealth Rock...what makes Latios so special that running coverage moves is unacceptable? I guess its the "former Uber" stamp on its forehead.
One last thing. For Latios to even land said coverage moves, it needs to predict. Anti-Latios users are conveniently willing to overlook this when shooting down other people's argument to predict the DM (oh my, anticipating that a Specs user will use its most powerful attack to cause the most damage, how extraordinary).
This is false. Choice Specs is the equivalent of a +1 boost to SpA. Draco Meteor leaves it at -1 aka x0.66.
This. I crap my pants every time I see Hydreigon because nothing can switch into it. The steels that resist its Draco Meteor are subsequently outsped and hit by Fire Blast, not weak shit like HP Fire. It is easier to revenge than Latios, but much, much more difficult to switch into. Focus Blast is also better than anything Latios can throw against Tyranitar. That and Modest Hydreigon hits harder than Timid Latios, but whatever.
Please think about your posts before you make them. For one, Ferrothorn still beats that set. Second, you need another pokemon to set up a favorable condition for Manaphy and third, you require additional support to remove their special wall. Either you genuinely think this, or are grasping at straws simply because you don't even want to bother testing Manaphy.
Excadrill
Is Excadrill immediately at +2 when it switches in? Does Excadrill have the coverage moves required to muscle past its counters? Yes, I said counters, which is more than can be said for several pokemon allowed in OU and lower.
The majority of people who are sympathetic to banning Excadrill have used the argument "once its counters are removed." This may have applied in 4th gen, but this is a new game, and one with team preview. If you see Excadrill, preserve you counter, simple as. They managed to get rid of it? Then you were simply outplayed. That's like saying Volcarona is broken because the opponent managed to remove your ScarfChomp before attempting a sweep. Those toting the overcentralization argument (aka the meaningless one) should go check out Excadrill's #8 slot. Not even top 5 anymore.
Excadrill is the epitome of hype.
Lugia
Not even going to continue giving Lugia the privilege of discussion for OU.
Drought
I'd like us to stop and pause for a second before we jump to the conclusion that Drought is extreme. We aren't facing +2 Speed Heatran with double STAB Fire Blast, or double speed Infernape with SD + Flare Blitz. The fact that they are separate makes Drought more difficult to succeed with by default, and it has a wider variety of checks to it. The biggest issues, IMO, would be Victini, Sawsbuck, Venusaur, and possibly Darmanitan, all of which have safe checks in OU. Let's not be too hasty in banning it should Drizzle/Sand go.
I'll admit to this too. After my main argument with you, I'll admit that I've had a change of heart about complex bans that's pretty much the same as yours. While they are needed in the current metagame but shouldn't be a priority over Simple bans unless specific circumstances are met. I believe these should be:
1. Not enough Knowledge is known about what is broken that banning something wouldn't be a good idea.
This is what the Aldaron Proposal was. 5th gen wasn't up for very long so we still didn't have much knowledge of how things worked. The proposal gave us knowledge on the broken factor which is still drizzle.
2. Enough pokemon are affected by the ability or move that a simple ban shouldn't be done.
The SandStream + Sand Veil shouldn't be done. In OU it would only significantly affect one pokemon. That being Garchomp. At least with the Aldaron proposal we were testing all the pokemon with Swift Swim. There are, arguably, at least 3 pokemon broken (Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo) with Swift Swim and so many more that can use it but are overshadowed by those three. Many pokemon would've been banned if the Aldaron proposal hadn't taken place. However, with this SandStream + Sand Veil complex ban we would only affect Garchomp. I can't help but feel this is nothing more than playing favorites. If there aren't enough pokemon that are effected by the broken factor, then a complex ban is unnessesary.
As for the smashpass combo, I can't help but feel people are being paranoid. In UU this combo may have been broken but in OU there are more powerful pokemon and more taunt users that can break through the Smashpass combo. All of the smashpass users are significantly low in usage and it's much weaker in OU than in UU. There's no point to doing such a thing. Personally I don't think any of the smashpass abusers should be banned. The combo looks good on paper but in battle there are many factors that hinder it.
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