That's not how suspect testing works. We're trying to determine if the item is broken, and not "which metagame we like better". Early gen 4 uu worked this way. I wasn't around for this, ask heysup fo more details.[/QUOTE]
To reiterate:
Heysup said:
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np: LC - Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting - now with alt verification!
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To reiterate:
An easy fix to this would be to increase the difficulty a bit thats all. Since their is a much smaller playing population, 15+15 shrinking to something like 10+10 would be more appropriate.
I got a new alt a few nights ago and hit #7 in 4 matches, its very easy to get a good ranking. I like Zeph's 10+10 idea, but I think that we should just make a set mark to hit, maybe 1150. There is no rating decay from what I've heard, and it's a challenge but not "impossible" for a good chunk of players to get to 1150.
SkyNet
MediEvil!
Well if there is no rating decay 1200 would be a better number imo as you can easily hit 1150 in 3-4 battle but getting to 1200 take a bit more effort and understanding of the metagame.
Does anyone know when the testing officially end? as I need to start laddering hard D:
I agree with this or any other higher standards than 15+15
Yea, 1200 is a better number now that I look at the board (and also see that I was over 1150 in 4 matches as well). I think the main reason there aren't more accounts above 1200 currently is that nobody is parking their alt. It's easy to keep an alt above 1130, and the current cut-off is lower than that, 1121 to be exact if nobody besides me has more than one alt in the top 15, which I highly doubt. Obviously it shouldn't be changed for this test, but I think it should in future testing.
SkyNet
MediEvil!
Well #15 is now ranked at 1161 and the LC ladder was quite active last night which made a nice change. So the standard is starting to go up, hopefully this will continue.
Hey guys! Sorry for the delay, real life got in the way. Here's the deal:
Bold Pokemon and/or items which you think should be made suspects for this round, and back it up with reasoning. Whether or not we accept your nominations will be determined based on coherency and sensibility. While length is not considered, we would like to remind everyone that is is always best to err on the side of detail in this case. Non-bolded nominations will not be counted.
As for rating requirements, dubs and I are going to speak about it and maybe adjust them, but no guarantees. Testing tentatively will end in a week or so, along with nominations.
Happy nominating!
edit: Reqs are now top 10 and withing 15 points of the top 10. Tell your friends!
Bold Pokemon and/or items which you think should be made suspects for this round, and back it up with reasoning. Whether or not we accept your nominations will be determined based on coherency and sensibility. While length is not considered, we would like to remind everyone that is is always best to err on the side of detail in this case. Non-bolded nominations will not be counted.
As for rating requirements, dubs and I are going to speak about it and maybe adjust them, but no guarantees. Testing tentatively will end in a week or so, along with nominations.
Happy nominating!
edit: Reqs are now top 10 and withing 15 points of the top 10. Tell your friends!
Misdreavus
I didn't originally think that Misdreavus was broken, but now that Krow has left it seems to almost have taken over. Soon after the Krow ban, the Status Eviolite sets were annoying but still fairly easily checked. Then, NP Missy started popping up everywhere and things just went down hill from there. At +2, Missy completely rips through unprepared teams, and even some that are prepared. For example, a fairly common Missy check is Vullaby, but it gets absolutely raped by +2 Thunderbolt, making NP + 3 Attack Misdreavus a bitch to face when using a team that rely's on Vullaby to check it. Ok, so you run a Scarfer to beat LO Missy, right? Well, then you're fucked by Sub NP. It seems as though the only fool proof counter to Missy is Stunky then, which isn't too bad as Stunky's a great Pokemon overall...but wait, fuck, you just got hit by a WoW from a bulky Missy set. I guess what I'm trying to say is the same thing that most people said about Murkrow: It's too versatile. Now, it may not be on the same level of versatility as Krow was, but it's still more than enough to wreak havoc on the entire LC tier. It seems as if a counter to one Missy set is completely neutered / wrecked by a different one, making numerous checks to Missy needed on any one teams, which inevitably leaves you open to other threats that need countering. I believe Misdreavus is the most devastating aspect in LC, even more so than Sun, leaving it extremely ban worthy.
On the topic of Sun, I haven't formulated a complete opinion as of yet, as some of my teams handle it well while others are terribly weak to it. I'd like to listen to other's opinions on the subject, so yes, you guys still have time to convert me!
I didn't originally think that Misdreavus was broken, but now that Krow has left it seems to almost have taken over. Soon after the Krow ban, the Status Eviolite sets were annoying but still fairly easily checked. Then, NP Missy started popping up everywhere and things just went down hill from there. At +2, Missy completely rips through unprepared teams, and even some that are prepared. For example, a fairly common Missy check is Vullaby, but it gets absolutely raped by +2 Thunderbolt, making NP + 3 Attack Misdreavus a bitch to face when using a team that rely's on Vullaby to check it. Ok, so you run a Scarfer to beat LO Missy, right? Well, then you're fucked by Sub NP. It seems as though the only fool proof counter to Missy is Stunky then, which isn't too bad as Stunky's a great Pokemon overall...but wait, fuck, you just got hit by a WoW from a bulky Missy set. I guess what I'm trying to say is the same thing that most people said about Murkrow: It's too versatile. Now, it may not be on the same level of versatility as Krow was, but it's still more than enough to wreak havoc on the entire LC tier. It seems as if a counter to one Missy set is completely neutered / wrecked by a different one, making numerous checks to Missy needed on any one teams, which inevitably leaves you open to other threats that need countering. I believe Misdreavus is the most devastating aspect in LC, even more so than Sun, leaving it extremely ban worthy.
On the topic of Sun, I haven't formulated a complete opinion as of yet, as some of my teams handle it well while others are terribly weak to it. I'd like to listen to other's opinions on the subject, so yes, you guys still have time to convert me!
Vulpix
Sun might not be the most common strategy, but it is easily the most dangerous to face. Vulpix provides permanent sun unless the opponent's team has either Hippopotas or Snover. Scarf Snover isn't a rare sight, but I'm the only one (that I know of) who uses Hippopotas, and he's only on one of my three teams. After sun is set up, there are a plethora of Chlorophyl sweepers who can abuse it. They all outspeed nonboosted pokemon, and some even outspeed many scarfers. That leaves fast scarfers and priority to beat them. Most (if not all, can't qite remember) of the common sun sweepers have some sort of move that will put an opponent to sleep, so more than one counter is needed against sun. Aqua Jet doesn't do much against Vulpix, and the rest of the common sweepers are all Grass-type. In conclusion, it is hard to fight sun because it can put your biggest threat to their team to sleep so you are basically forced to carry multiple counters.
Sun might not be the most common strategy, but it is easily the most dangerous to face. Vulpix provides permanent sun unless the opponent's team has either Hippopotas or Snover. Scarf Snover isn't a rare sight, but I'm the only one (that I know of) who uses Hippopotas, and he's only on one of my three teams. After sun is set up, there are a plethora of Chlorophyl sweepers who can abuse it. They all outspeed nonboosted pokemon, and some even outspeed many scarfers. That leaves fast scarfers and priority to beat them. Most (if not all, can't qite remember) of the common sun sweepers have some sort of move that will put an opponent to sleep, so more than one counter is needed against sun. Aqua Jet doesn't do much against Vulpix, and the rest of the common sweepers are all Grass-type. In conclusion, it is hard to fight sun because it can put your biggest threat to their team to sleep so you are basically forced to carry multiple counters.
Vulpix (Drought)
Yeah Drought is really annoying.Especially with sweepers with superpowerful moves, growth, and sleep powder, as well as being extremely fast right off the bat. I've been seeing a lot of drought lately, and it's pretty much counter drought / get lucky, or lose. Get rid of it pleeeeeease!
Yeah Drought is really annoying.Especially with sweepers with superpowerful moves, growth, and sleep powder, as well as being extremely fast right off the bat. I've been seeing a lot of drought lately, and it's pretty much counter drought / get lucky, or lose. Get rid of it pleeeeeease!
Drought
There are numerous reasons why Drought is broken in my opinion. First and foremost, Chlorophyll sweepers are incredibly threatening. The ability to gain a nearly guaranteed Growth off with Sleep Powder is terrifying. There are very few things that can withstand a +2 Solarbeam, and even those are usually 2HKOd. Priority doesn't even stop them, as most Chlorophyll sweepers can avoid being OHKOd even by the strongest of priority moves. Double-STAB Fire moves are also a problem, tearing holes in nearly everything. What's worse is that sun is difficult to remove, with the two common weather changers, Snover and Hippopotas, being extremely susceptible to the standard fare for sun teams. Neither of them can safely take on Vulpix either, as the risk of Hypnosis or Sub + Disable is always lurking, and Snover is of course 4x weak to its STAB. Even if a specialized check is used, such as Scarf Cloud Nine Psyduck, it often opens up a team to other threats, such as Scraggy or Meditite.
I've recently been reconsidering whether Scraggy and Meditite are broken, so I'll add in nominations for them if I decide I think they are.
There are numerous reasons why Drought is broken in my opinion. First and foremost, Chlorophyll sweepers are incredibly threatening. The ability to gain a nearly guaranteed Growth off with Sleep Powder is terrifying. There are very few things that can withstand a +2 Solarbeam, and even those are usually 2HKOd. Priority doesn't even stop them, as most Chlorophyll sweepers can avoid being OHKOd even by the strongest of priority moves. Double-STAB Fire moves are also a problem, tearing holes in nearly everything. What's worse is that sun is difficult to remove, with the two common weather changers, Snover and Hippopotas, being extremely susceptible to the standard fare for sun teams. Neither of them can safely take on Vulpix either, as the risk of Hypnosis or Sub + Disable is always lurking, and Snover is of course 4x weak to its STAB. Even if a specialized check is used, such as Scarf Cloud Nine Psyduck, it often opens up a team to other threats, such as Scraggy or Meditite.
I've recently been reconsidering whether Scraggy and Meditite are broken, so I'll add in nominations for them if I decide I think they are.
Meditite
I'm not proposing your standard LO Meditite. I'm proposing Evolution Stone Meditite. Evolution Stone Meditite easily avoids being OHKOed by Pokemon such as Gligar and still easily KOes them in turn (just trust me man). He still hits like a monster with 28 Attack, and to make matters worse, he has Drain Punch to keep him self at full health. Very few Pokemon can reliably switch into Meditite with Ice Punch / Drain Punch / [2 of ThunderPunch, Zen Headbutt, or Bullet Punch], even keeping in mind that he can use four at time. Without ThunderPunch, Slowpoke can counter it decently. Without Zen Headbutt, bulky Missy does ok-ish. Bullet Punch gives it excellent priority capabilities if needed.
I'm not proposing your standard LO Meditite. I'm proposing Evolution Stone Meditite. Evolution Stone Meditite easily avoids being OHKOed by Pokemon such as Gligar and still easily KOes them in turn (just trust me man). He still hits like a monster with 28 Attack, and to make matters worse, he has Drain Punch to keep him self at full health. Very few Pokemon can reliably switch into Meditite with Ice Punch / Drain Punch / [2 of ThunderPunch, Zen Headbutt, or Bullet Punch], even keeping in mind that he can use four at time. Without ThunderPunch, Slowpoke can counter it decently. Without Zen Headbutt, bulky Missy does ok-ish. Bullet Punch gives it excellent priority capabilities if needed.
Vulpix
I've played around with a Sunny Day team for a bit now, and I have to say that it's pretty damn powerful. First off is Vulpix, who essentially gets an extra STAB bonus while weakening the power of one of its 3 weaknesses. Next we have Chlorophyll sweepers. Pokemon like Oddish and Bellsprout have resistance to a fair amount of primary priority attacks (Aqua Jet, Vacuum Wave, Mach Punch), but their attacking stats are pretty nice to begin with and most of them can get extra boosts. Bellsprout, Petilil and others (none come to mind), get Sleep Powder as well as a move that gets a double boost (growth, swords dance, etc.), making them extremely dangerous especially if counters have been removed. Then, we have Pokemon such as Darumaka that get indirect bonuses from Sunny Day. Darumaka gets a huge bonus to its STABs from Sunny Day and can deal a lot of damage with Flare Blitz. The fact that most Sunny Day sweepers are either Grass or Fire type makes it a lot better for them since they can easily take out Hippopotas and Snover (the primary "counters" to Sunny Day) and should easily be considered the most "broken" of thethree four (whoops, Rain still exists) weathers. Trick Room teams fare slightly better against Sunny Day but they won't be taking a lot of boosted attacks in the future.
I've played around with a Sunny Day team for a bit now, and I have to say that it's pretty damn powerful. First off is Vulpix, who essentially gets an extra STAB bonus while weakening the power of one of its 3 weaknesses. Next we have Chlorophyll sweepers. Pokemon like Oddish and Bellsprout have resistance to a fair amount of primary priority attacks (Aqua Jet, Vacuum Wave, Mach Punch), but their attacking stats are pretty nice to begin with and most of them can get extra boosts. Bellsprout, Petilil and others (none come to mind), get Sleep Powder as well as a move that gets a double boost (growth, swords dance, etc.), making them extremely dangerous especially if counters have been removed. Then, we have Pokemon such as Darumaka that get indirect bonuses from Sunny Day. Darumaka gets a huge bonus to its STABs from Sunny Day and can deal a lot of damage with Flare Blitz. The fact that most Sunny Day sweepers are either Grass or Fire type makes it a lot better for them since they can easily take out Hippopotas and Snover (the primary "counters" to Sunny Day) and should easily be considered the most "broken" of the
I thought we already established that you can't base votes on what the eventual metagame will look like.
My nominations
Meditite - I hate writing huge posts for suspects. -.- Ok, it has the highest attack stat by a significant margin. It has a large amount of bulk when used with Eviolite. It has a large enough movepool that you can never be sure if your counter will work. When it's down to a guessing game on the switch and if you guess wrong you lose a mon, that's an example of something that's too powerful. It has a bunch of priority if you want to check fast sweepers (life orb fake out + bullet punch koes bellsprout from full hp before it can move) or you can run a bully variant with recover that has amazing longevity (aerial ace from gligar won't ko if you run enough bulk).
Drought - It is centralizing. It gives a significant boost to a number of mons, and it's not like vulpix is a bad pokemon considering that it loses its water weak and gets a free specs. A balanced drought team can overcome the stacked weaknesses of the sweepers by adding a defensive core and basically playing like a normal team that can then come out with a 26 speed boosting sweeper or overwhelming fire moves (bellsprout and houndour spring immediately to mind). It breaks the sweepers, and an ability that makes a large amount of stuff overpowered is broken imo.
Edit: Vader, if one guy has 5 Alts in the top 10 that only counts as 1 of the 10 and it would effectively be top 14. Correct?
edit2: Vulpix over drought since we can't ban abilities. Same reasoning.
Yep, and iirc there are around 4 alts in the top ten.
SkyNet
MediEvil!
Not all drought sweepers are broken and I do believe we can have a healthy metagame with drought which is why my first nomination might be a bit contraversal
My nominations
Bellsprout
Bellsprout is the king of chlorophyll sweepers with access to a reliable instant sleep move in the form of Sleep powder, Growth to boost its SpAtk and Atk to an insane level and 28 Speed in Sun, Bellsprout can easily get 2+ KOs per game. I'm just going to throw a few calculations around we all know the likes of Slowpoke, Frillish and Gligar are easily OHKO'd by Solarbeam;
Anyway thats just a few cals of some common pokes.
Medtite
Everything has been said already about him, I can't add anymore.
My nominations
Bellsprout
Bellsprout is the king of chlorophyll sweepers with access to a reliable instant sleep move in the form of Sleep powder, Growth to boost its SpAtk and Atk to an insane level and 28 Speed in Sun, Bellsprout can easily get 2+ KOs per game. I'm just going to throw a few calculations around we all know the likes of Slowpoke, Frillish and Gligar are easily OHKO'd by Solarbeam;
Code:
+2 Solarbeam from a Timid Sprout.
Standard Oran Missy
32 SpAtk vs 15 SpDef & 22 HP (120 Base Power): 27 - 33 (122.7% - 150%) -OHKO
Eviolte Missy
32 SpAtk vs 22 SpDef & 22 HP (120 Base Power):19 - 24 (86.4% - 109.1%) - Chance to OHKO with SR up
Eviolte Metatite
32 SpAtk vs 18 SpDef & 20 HP (120 Base Power):24 - 28 (120% - 140%) - OHKO
Eviolte Scraggy
32 SpAtk vs 21 SpDef & 22 HP (120 Base Power):19 - 24 (86.4% - 109.1%) - Chance to OHKO, OHKO with SR up
Eviolte Timburr
32 SpAtk vs 16 SpDef & 27 HP (120 Base Power):27 - 33 (100% - 122.2%) - OHKO
Eviolte Munchlax
32 SpAtk vs 22 SpDef & 30 HP (120 Base Power):19 - 24 (63.3% - 80%) -2HKO
LO Houndour
32 SpAtk vs 11 SpDef & 21 HP (120 Base Power):19 - 23 (90.5% - 109.5%) - Chance to OHKO, OHKO with SR
LO Ponyta
32 SpAtk vs 11 SpDef & 21 HP (120 Base Power): 16 - 20 (72.7% - 90.9%) OHKO with SR
+2 Hidden power on Bronzor probs a OHKO getting bored now.Medtite
Everything has been said already about him, I can't add anymore.
Drought
Anyway, Drought makes it extremely easy to throw together a team and kill people with it, and is really too good to stay.
(but it is really fun to kill things with growthsprout)
Is what I'd like to say, but I have a feeling it won't work. So...to reiterate, Drought is incredibly good. A sub-par pokemon like Vulpix gets a free Choice Specs and loses its weaknesses, and god help you against pokemon that don't suck, like Ponyta or Houndour. Then we have the plethora of Chlorophyll sweepers, most of which have at least two of insta +2 in both attacking stats in Growth, insta set up bait/removal of a counter in Sleep Powder, and unresisted coverage in three moves with Grass/Poison/Fire attacks. And 26 speed. And Eviolite lets them take priority attacks and Giga Drain health back while killing stuff too. And Hippopotas and Snover really can't take Giga Drain/HP Fire/Fire Blast too well. And even Lickitung and Swablu don't like +1 STAB Sludge Bombs.
Anyway, Drought makes it extremely easy to throw together a team and kill people with it, and is really too good to stay.
(but it is really fun to kill things with growthsprout)
Nominations
Misdreavus
Misdreavus doesn't seem broken at first glance with Sucker Punchers running around, but a SubPlot set destroys them. Then, you could say lets use Scraggy, but Will-O-Wisp hits you. The point is that Misdreavus's versatility makes it broken because you can never know what she will do next; Murkrow is DeaD and Vullaby is rarely seen b/c even a Thunderbolt can KO it after a boost. In my opinion, she is too powerful for Little Cup atm. An Eviolite set gets 3HKO'd by Solarbeams coming off Bellsprout, another broken pokemon atm! She's is like a SUPA bitch, imo.
Drought
SUN is broken; a Vulpix, some chlorophyllers, and a psychic/ghost/Gligar to cover your weaknesses and you set. It causes overcentralization; it reminds me of Latias and Salamence in DPP OU. And, yeah no complex ban b/c no one is going to use Drought Vulpix to make a Mono-Grass team with Vulpix as their wild card.
Meditite
KO's counters on the switch; if you are still alive your ass gets Bullet Punched. Not to mention this pokemon is STRONG AS FUK. If Misdreavus is banned and he isn't, I'm going to quit Little Cup for a second time. It wrecks, and is gonna keeping wrecking.
When these pokemon are gone I expect Little Cup to have more diversity and the less need for the same checks on every team. Looking forward to at least one of these banned!
ggGG
Misdreavus
Misdreavus doesn't seem broken at first glance with Sucker Punchers running around, but a SubPlot set destroys them. Then, you could say lets use Scraggy, but Will-O-Wisp hits you. The point is that Misdreavus's versatility makes it broken because you can never know what she will do next; Murkrow is DeaD and Vullaby is rarely seen b/c even a Thunderbolt can KO it after a boost. In my opinion, she is too powerful for Little Cup atm. An Eviolite set gets 3HKO'd by Solarbeams coming off Bellsprout, another broken pokemon atm! She's is like a SUPA bitch, imo.
Drought
SUN is broken; a Vulpix, some chlorophyllers, and a psychic/ghost/Gligar to cover your weaknesses and you set. It causes overcentralization; it reminds me of Latias and Salamence in DPP OU. And, yeah no complex ban b/c no one is going to use Drought Vulpix to make a Mono-Grass team with Vulpix as their wild card.
Meditite
KO's counters on the switch; if you are still alive your ass gets Bullet Punched. Not to mention this pokemon is STRONG AS FUK. If Misdreavus is banned and he isn't, I'm going to quit Little Cup for a second time. It wrecks, and is gonna keeping wrecking.
When these pokemon are gone I expect Little Cup to have more diversity and the less need for the same checks on every team. Looking forward to at least one of these banned!
ggGG
Nomintating:
Drought: Totally overpowered. It allows you to have insanely bulky and fast set up sweepers with a move that can boost there attack and special attack by +2. There are a few counters out there, most notable munchlax and swablu, but with repeated beating on them by the sun sweepers eventually they will be KO'd opening the opponent up for a sweep. I think that it would probably be in the best interest of the metagame to ban sun, as it is extremely OP. The only way to cancel out sun is to bring Hippopotas or Snover into the field; however, the former dies to the common Grass pokémon that sun teams usually bring and the latter dies to Vulpix.
Scraggy: By using an Eviolite, it is more bulky than Gen 4 Bronzor. Not only that, it has enough speed to outpace the metagame at +1 and has great attack. Add to that almost unresisted dual STABs, a 130 BP move, Ice Punch to break through Gligar (the best physical wall) and you have a top sweeper.
Drought: Totally overpowered. It allows you to have insanely bulky and fast set up sweepers with a move that can boost there attack and special attack by +2. There are a few counters out there, most notable munchlax and swablu, but with repeated beating on them by the sun sweepers eventually they will be KO'd opening the opponent up for a sweep. I think that it would probably be in the best interest of the metagame to ban sun, as it is extremely OP. The only way to cancel out sun is to bring Hippopotas or Snover into the field; however, the former dies to the common Grass pokémon that sun teams usually bring and the latter dies to Vulpix.
Scraggy: By using an Eviolite, it is more bulky than Gen 4 Bronzor. Not only that, it has enough speed to outpace the metagame at +1 and has great attack. Add to that almost unresisted dual STABs, a 130 BP move, Ice Punch to break through Gligar (the best physical wall) and you have a top sweeper.
Vulpix
(drought) is totally overcentralizing, water types were among the best of the best in LC and they have vanished outside of a lucky few, with growth the chlorophyll sweeper get a shells smash with no defense reduction, convine that to sleep powder, solarbeam, weather ball, etc... and almost no team that lacks weather itself can survive a sweep by something like bellsprout, hipo dies to grass, and vulpix itself can easily kill snover, and the amount of chlorophyll sweepers and support is enough to make ver different teams that counter the sun-counters (which by itself shows hoe centralizing sun is)
Scraggy
With eviolite he is really bulky, and dragon dance in any wall, not only that but whit pediccion it can destroy it's most common counter (meditite) caching him with crunch on the swich in, he is "inmune" to status and he can easily set-up in walls and defensive pokes that are unable to do sh¡t back, at +1/+1 he can easily sweep a team (and with drain punch to recover health he doesn't die)
(drought) is totally overcentralizing, water types were among the best of the best in LC and they have vanished outside of a lucky few, with growth the chlorophyll sweeper get a shells smash with no defense reduction, convine that to sleep powder, solarbeam, weather ball, etc... and almost no team that lacks weather itself can survive a sweep by something like bellsprout, hipo dies to grass, and vulpix itself can easily kill snover, and the amount of chlorophyll sweepers and support is enough to make ver different teams that counter the sun-counters (which by itself shows hoe centralizing sun is)
Scraggy
With eviolite he is really bulky, and dragon dance in any wall, not only that but whit pediccion it can destroy it's most common counter (meditite) caching him with crunch on the swich in, he is "inmune" to status and he can easily set-up in walls and defensive pokes that are unable to do sh¡t back, at +1/+1 he can easily sweep a team (and with drain punch to recover health he doesn't die)
Nominations are now closed.
Here's the leaderboard at the time that testing closed:
Claim any and all alternate accounts that belong to you on this list. I will be verifying each of these, and if you are found to be sharing an account name or lying about an account being yours, then you will be disciplined.
Thanks, and happy claiming!
edit: to be clear, only the top 10 and within 15 of the top 10 players will qualify, that much has not changed.
Here's the leaderboard at the time that testing closed:
Claim any and all alternate accounts that belong to you on this list. I will be verifying each of these, and if you are found to be sharing an account name or lying about an account being yours, then you will be disciplined.
Thanks, and happy claiming!
edit: to be clear, only the top 10 and within 15 of the top 10 players will qualify, that much has not changed.
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