np: LC - Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting - now with alt verification!

[Engineer Pikachu]

FREE SPEED BOOST!

Fixed.

I do support a test for Yanma though.

 

[Nails]

omg you guys really want to test yanma

no
no
no
no
no

don't make me bust out my scarf tinted lens air slashes

edit: no tinted lens. broken as fuck though

 

[Moo]

Ok, may seem like a stupid post, but I'm going for it.

I say we unban everything, and make a list of what can't use Eviolite. That way, hopefully, there's some powerful sweepers balanced by defensive eviolite walls. The unbanned Pokes could kind of balance each other out too, hopefully. I know its a bit drastic, but it's safe to say that there's never been an item to have such a big impact on a tier as Eviolite did. Also, I cant imagine Meditite or Scraggy without Eviolite being broken either.

One of the reasons I had this idea is because banned Pokemon can't really be used at all, unlike banned Pokemon from OU, which go to Ubers. And lets face it, no one plays LC Ubers, LC is small enough as it is.

 

[Dubulous]

That solution is way too convoluted to actually be implemented in our official rules.

 

[(makeup)]

How is Meditite without Eviolite not broken? Why do you think it was banned last gen? It's pure power that's the problem.

 

[v]

That solution is way too convoluted to actually be implemented in our official rules.

I agree 100%. I have no desire to implement any "complex bans" in Little Cup and I expect Dubulous feels the same way. And as for the stupid "FREE YANMA" posts, back them up with reasoning if you actually feel as though Yanma should be unbanned or they will be met with a swift deletion and warning.

 

[Moo]

It is complex, but I thought some powerful sweepers would add some balance to the tier, which feels way too bulky atm. And without Eviolite they wouldn't be overpowered.

Anyway, I'm starting to gain a different opinion on the metagame. It's too bulky compared to the previous one. And I know that it's a matter of preference, but I think it's a bit stupid that one item made such a drastic change. I'm starting to agree with Crux.

 

[Heysup]

I’m sure I’m not the only one who realises this, but nearly every single suspect that has ever been nominated or discussed in any of these threads have something in common. Eviolite. This single item has defined the Generation V Little Cup metagame from the start, I would go so far as to say that this item is the most influential and revolutionary thing to ever be introduced to any metagame. Whether that influence is good or not, I am no longer sure, it is up for debate. Most of you would know that I voted to keep Eviolite in our first suspect test, and was one of its more vocal defenders. Since then, I have come to think that perhaps I was wrong.

Looking back at all the other suspect threads, Eviolite stands out as the reason behind all eventual bans, except for Moody. If multiple Pokémon are broken with an item, then it is the item that is broken. Banning anything other than a Pokémon however, is an emergency measure, especially in this case, where the item in question is arguably the most important aspect of the metagame. Eviolite makes Little Cup what it is, and banning it would change everything.

My biggest problem here is that you don't actually prove or show that Eviolite is behind any of the bans. I'd imagine this would be a hard task anyway considering....well....that it isn't the case. It is behind some of the suspects, maybe, but not eventual bans.

Murkrow was not banned for its Eviolite set - unless I'm mistaken (and consequently if I'm mistaken then I feel it was wrongly banned). The Life Orb set was way bigger of a problem. Scyther is broken because Scyther is broken, it would destroy the metagame without an item at all. Eviolite is not relevant. Yanma is similar to Scyther in that it doesn't even need an item to be broken, but not to the same extent. Tangela is on same boat as Scyther, even though Eviolite was insane on Tangela. Sneasel? If you used Eviolite Sneasel then you were doing it very wrong. Out of all of the Pokemon who've been banned so far, I don't think we have one Pokemon who was banned because of Eviolite.

And for the record, I do think Eviolite is possibly broken, but it didn't have anything to do with previous bans.

As for the idea of removal for testing:

I really can't see the logic in "testing something by not testing it". We've tried it before with the old UU tests and it was shown to not only be irrelevant, but create major biases in voting by a) diminishing our memories of the item and even unintentionally exaggerating our points b) creating a situation in which you are voting for a metagame rather than on whether or not we have something broken.

 

[Crux]

My biggest problem here is that you don't actually prove or show that Eviolite is behind any of the bans. I'd imagine this would be a hard task anyway considering....well....that it isn't the case. It is behind some of the suspects, maybe, but not eventual bans.

Murkrow was not banned for its Eviolite set - unless I'm mistaken (and consequently if I'm mistaken then I feel it was wrongly banned). The Life Orb set was way bigger of a problem.

Murkrow was not banned due to anyone set, it was banned due to the sheer versatility that it had. AFAIK the Life Orb set was actually dismissed a lot due to its lack of survivability, although it was very good. Murkrow's versatility though was due to Eviolite, as it allowed it to run most of its sets (CM FeatherDance etc.)

Scyther is broken because Scyther is broken, it would destroy the metagame without an item at all. Eviolite is not relevant. Yanma is similar to Scyther in that it doesn't even need an item to be broken, but not to the same extent. Tangela is on same boat as Scyther, even though Eviolite was insane on Tangela. Sneasel? If you used Eviolite Sneasel then you were doing it very wrong. Out of all of the Pokemon who've been banned so far, I don't think we have one Pokemon who was banned because of Eviolite.

I was refering to all the nominations that were made in the past, Scraggy, Meditite and Murkrow, not the initial banlist, sorry if that was a little unclear.

And for the record, I do think Eviolite is possibly broken, but it didn't have anything to do with previous bans.

As for the idea of removal for testing:

I really can't see the logic in "testing something by not testing it". We've tried it before with the old UU tests and it was shown to not only be irrelevant, but create major biases in voting by a) diminishing our memories of the item and even unintentionally exaggerating our points b) creating a situation in which you are voting for a metagame rather than on whether or not we have something broken.

This is absolutely correct, however, I feel that any Eviolite ban is going to be based on metagame preference anyway, which is the reason I voted to keep it in the first test. :(

I think that because Eviolite is so important to the metagame, it would be both irresponsible and stupid to ban it without seeing the effects its banning would have, because realistically, any Eviolite vote is a choice between HO and stall anyway, I'd prefer if people could make the vote better informed.

 

[Dubulous]

If your main argument for banning Eviolite is "it isn't healthy for the metagame" then I can say without a doubt that Eviolite will not be banned.

Eviolite is unique in that it is the only item that boosts a Pokemon's stats without any drawback for the user (unless I'm forgetting something). So obviously it's a very very good item, I think we expected that much going in. I don't think we really realized just how much of a game changer Eviolite is, though. The difference between Gen IV LC and Gen V LC is just about night and day.

That said, we need to be very careful when we are considering banning items--especially this particular item. With Eviolite gone, the metagame very likely shifts back to the LC of old: very fast and very offensive. And while it wouldn't be the end of the world to do that, I'm not particularly willing to shake up the game that drastically on a what essentially amounts to a whim.

We ban things that break the game. We don't ban things that are unhealthy. One is (supposed to be) objective and the other is (supposed to be) subjective. That's why the ban requirements are set so high--things that break the game should be rather obvious to spot.

I'm pulling out a cliché here, but I think it rings true in this instance: we play Pokemon as it is given to us, not Pokemon that we want it to be.

 

[Crux]

My argument is, that Eviolite is broken and should be banned because of that, however, I also think that keeping Eviolite may also be healthy for the metagame , which is why a test is needed.

 

[Heysup]

My argument is, that Eviolite is broken and should be banned because of that, however, I also think that keeping Eviolite may also be healthy for the metagame , which is why a test is needed.

You are going in circles; we are back at the part where we don't think we should test something by not testing it.

The effects of a ban should not matter. At all. The more you consider that, the more you bias your decision from "what is actually broken" to "which metagame did I like better".

If Eviolite is broken, we'll vote it that way. I'm currently on the fence with it, but we should be discussing that rather than if it's a good idea to test it by removing it...because it's not a good idea.

 

[Al_Alchemist]

Hey I recently got into Drought teams, let's talk about that. I need help on an exact Vulpix set (mostly EV wise) to run though, here's the one I'm running at the moment, and I would appreciate your opinions / suggestions:

Vulpix (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Drought
EVs: 212 HP / 36 SAtk / 240 SDef
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Disable
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Actual Stats after Eviolite Boosts: 23 HP / 9 Atk / 15 Def / 13 SpA / 24 SpD / 13 Spe

Damage Calculations (All assuming maxed SpA/Atk unless otherwise specified):

Life Orb Timid Misdreavus Shadow Ball:
18 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 7 - 10 (30.43% - 43.48%) -> 
Avg of 9 Damage [B]3HKO[/B]

[COLOR="Blue"]Life Orb Timid Misdreavus Shadow Ball +2:
36 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 16 - 21 (69.57% - 91.30%) -> 
Avg of 18 Damage [B]2HKO[/B][/COLOR]

Eviolite (Non-Attack boosting Item) Timid Misdreavus:
18 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 7 - 9 (30.43% - 39.13%) - > 
Avg of 7 Damage [B]4HKO[/B]

Eviolite (Non-Attack boosting Item) Timid Misdreavus +2:
36 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 13 - 16 (56.52% - 69.57%) -> 
Avg of 15 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]

Life Orb Mild Houndour:
18 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (120 Base Power): 9 - 11 (39.13% - 47.83%) -> 
Avg of 9 Damage [B]3HKO[/B]

Life Orb Naive Houndour:
17 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (120 Base Power): 8 - 10 (34.78% - 43.48%) -> 
Avg of 9 Damage [B]3HKO[/B]

Life Orb Adamant Carvanha:
19 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 16 - 19 (69.57% - 82.61%) -> 
Avg of 16 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]

[COLOR="Red"]Eviolite (Non-Attack boosting Item) Adamant Timburr:
18 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (75 Base Power): 10 - 13 (43.48% - 56.52%) -> 
Avg of 12 Damage [B]2HKO[/B][/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]Eviolite (Non-Attack boosting Item) Adamant Meditite:
28 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 16 - 19 (69.57% - 82.61%) -> 
Avg of 16 Damage [B]2HKO[/B][/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]Life Orb Adamant Meditite:
28 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 19 - 24 (82.61% - 104.35%) -> 
Avg of 21 Damage [B]2HKO[/B][/COLOR]

Eviolite (Non-Attack boosting Item) Jolly 16 Atk Scraggy:
16 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 9 - 12 (39.13% - 52.17%) -> 
Avg of 10 Damage [B]3HKO[/B]

The ones in red were ones my other Oran Berry set would have survived a 2HKO from, while the ones in Blue are ones the Oran Berry set would have surely died from, all assuming full HP at the start of the attack.
(Oran Set EVs: Modest 212 HP / 40 Def / 36 SAtk / 160 SDef)

 

[Moo]

This isn't really the place for it, but what about morning sun? :p

 

[AlphaJolt]

Niether Vulpix nor Ninetales learn Morning Sun. Side note, you have 3 too many tails in your painting :)

 

[kokoloko]

lol, I had fogotten Sun was still allowed on Smogon.

Oran Berry is almost always better than Eviolite, despite he calculations, since Stealth Rock will be on our field more often that not... unless you're going to run Rapid Spin in a Drought team (lol).

 

[masterful]

lol, I had fogotten Sun was still allowed on Smogon.

Oran Berry is almost always better than Eviolite, despite he calculations, since Stealth Rock will be on our field more often that not... unless you're going to run Rapid Spin in a Drought team (lol).

To this I kinda agree. Unless you're using something with recovery or something incredibly bulky, Oran is generally a superior option, as it allows you take take a lot more single attacks and come back to a comfortable, while Eviolite only lessens these hits, and not to a great enough extent to make running it a better idea.

 

[Gerard]

Returnig to the eviolite-less metagame is really not something i would personally enjoy, the fact that this meta is more balanced and i encourage variety instead of just spamming the same STAB over and over again is what attact me for the first time (i liked it last gen, but i was mostly gimmicky player)

You don't like eviolite or things it makes many pokes hard to kill, there's knock off (have you tried baby mandibuzz, she's damn bulky and removes everyone's eviolite with knock off/whirlwind/roost combo, then you can sweep, and it's not like ferrotorn, or jelly are gonna do a lot to you more than nurn you or leech you, then it's really easy to sweep with manty or any sweeper (if you wanna see how broken would carvanha be trie this (altough subvanha is still the most awesome set))

Scraggy has an awesome hability that really lets him easily set up into every wall (whit pefect coverage and the double screen +2/+2 strategy that made him unstopabble), and with they with no way to fight back then you can just counter him with meditite , which is countered by missy, which is countered by scraggy, this will probaly make the trio banned and just then you can actually see if eviolite is really broken since you'll have a bunch of strategies and you'll really see how better the meta is with eviolite

 

[Al_Alchemist]

This isn't really the place for it, but what about morning sun? :p

Well all Drought teams are pretty much required to use a Vulpix (unless you're user Masterful heh). I thought we could discuss what's the best set for one so important to a possible suspect Playstyle or Pokemon/Ability.

Niether Vulpix nor Ninetales learn Morning Sun. Side note, you have 3 too many tails in your painting :)

The three on the left are its tails, the six on the top are its hair, you can't see the other tails cus the hair is blocking :o.

Oran Berry is almost always better than Eviolite, despite he calculations, since Stealth Rock will be on our field more often that not... unless you're going to run Rapid Spin in a Drought team (lol).

I run a Taunt Gligar on my team, so more often then not, I can prevent Stealth Rock from being placed on my side of the Field, though it does get past me sometimes, so I can see your point. Does Oran Berry automatically activate if say you switch in a Vulpix at 63% that gets knocked down to 37% because of Stealth Rock, if so then I might think about Oran Berry.

Going back to Drought: Does anyone have opinions on it possibly or thinks it should be a suspect this round? I think this time around, with Murkrow gone, Sun might be potent enough to pass nominations.

 

[kokoloko]

Taunt Gligar isn't very good stopping other Gligar from setting it up tbh, lol. But yes, it does activate like that Al (I'm like 95% sure).

Also, Drought was pretty damn broken before people started abusing CM Krow, so I'm pretty sure it will be broken without it around. People kinda gave up on Drought before they realized how retardedly broken it really is. So unless people start using that stupid Curse + Dragon Tail RestTalk Lickitung again, it should be potent enough to get an actual nomination.

On the subject of an Eviolite-less metagame - Would it be that hard to open a non-Eviolite ladder for a month or so to see how the metagame changes? I honestly believe once people play without Eviolite, they'll be all like "ew its just like Gen 4, I'd rather play with it" or something.

Finally, with the 15+15 system, people can qualify in 3 battles. Paragraphs was better.

 

[Al_Alchemist]

Taunt Gligar isn't very good stopping other Gligar from setting it up tbh, lol. But yes, it does activate like that Al (I'm like 95% sure).

Also, Drought was pretty damn broken before people started abusing CM Krow, so I'm pretty sure it will be broken without it around. People kinda gave up on Drought before they realized how retardedly broken it really is. So unless people start using that stupid Curse + Dragon Tail RestTalk Lickitung again, it should be potent enough to get an actual nomination.

On the subject of an Eviolite-less metagame - Would it be that hard to open a non-Eviolite ladder for a month or so to see how the metagame changes? I honestly believe once people play without Eviolite, they'll be all like "ew its just like Gen 4, I'd rather play with it" or something.

Finally, with the 15+15 system, people can qualify in 3 battles. Paragraphs was better.

True on the Gligar part though I usually prevent Stealth Rock long enough in my battles, for it not to affect me as much.

I agree that Drought was powerful back then, but Krow being so commonly used usually made it a lot harder for Drought teams. Now that Krow is gone, however; a lot of people are far less prepared for Drought, so atm its dominating many teams in my experience. Hopefully more solid evidence and reasoning can be put into a nomination, if Drought should be Suspect Tested. What was the reasoning for the banning/evidence for, of Drought on PO Beta Server, just curious?

Well I wouldn't say it would as hard as much as who would play it. The Metagame's community is already as small enough as it is, and although I think that would be a great thing to test, it is more or less unneeded. Eviolite has already been discussed to death in this thread imo, with nothing seeming to go anywhere. However, if you could get something like that implemented on the PO Beta Server Koko, I would definitely test it out ;).

The 15+15 system does irk me that it's possible to get on it while battling only a few times, thanks to such a small player population, so I would agree that I'd support paragraphs over the current system. This would be only to prevent more biased votes that are not based on reasons or evidence, that could be easily slipped through; not that I favor a Paragraphs system over 15+15, but I believe the 15+15 doesn't accurately enough give voting rights to people whom have significant knowledge of the Metagame and/or Suspects in a small community. The main reason 15+15 works in OU is because its a lot harder to get up there, having to beat many other people showing that you know how to utilize your team with a good enough understanding of the metagame and such, not that you just surprised a few people with a good lure set.

The current #15 is at 1139 (at the time of this post), so 1124 could easily be obtained in about 6-7 battles. While the OU #15 is at 1442, which takes quite a bit more battles to obtain a 1427 score.

 

[fatty]

I honestly have not had any trouble with Sun. Drought teams are often frail enough to where all you need to do is be able to tank one hit with virtually any Eviolite Mon and strike back with a relatively powerful move for the KO. It also doesn't seem to have the outright power to break through really defensive teams, from my point of view at least.

 

[Al_Alchemist]

I honestly have not had any trouble with Sun. Drought teams are often frail enough to where all you need to do is be able to tank one hit with virtually any Eviolite Mon and strike back with a relatively powerful move for the KO. It also doesn't seem to have the outright power to break through really defensive teams, from my point of view at least.

This is the problem I see many unexperienced or sorry to say noobish weather teams (or mostly sun in this tier) have. Most of them just try to build their teams for outright fast sweeps and destruction, while that may not be a horrible strategy, I find the most effective sun teams in LC and a few other tiers, is somewhat of a Balanced or even Defensive team. The problem with all out offensive Sun is that it has many full stop Pokemon for a lot of the sweepers, such as Flash Fire, Vullaby, Lickitung, Swablu, and etc. When those full offensive players see these Pokemon they somewhat scramble, because a lot of the Chlorophyll sweepers rely on Growth sweeps which is hard to pull off twice, so they are easily worn down by just switched to counters or checks with those Pokemon. SolarBeam, an obviously popular move on Sun teams, is also just as easily abused thanks to Cloud Nine and Weather changing Pokemon.

But with a more Balanced or Defensive style of playing, being faced with a counter that is a defensive Pokemon or otherwise is definitely not as frightening, while you still will utilize the offensive Pokemon, except now the other counter Pokemon are definitely worn down enough for a likely kill. I mostly got this idea from a Gen 4 RMT I saw a around a few years back: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59376.

Their quote here pretty much sums up our identical reasoning: "This brings me to my ultimate question: What is the point of Sunny Day? Honestly, I can't say I've worked it out, but I've given a shot at a team anyway. To this point I've decided it is a midway point between Rain Dance and stall - it can work patiently to inflict status onto teams, and work to set up sweeps and pummel them." Although they obviously had to use the move Sunny day for their team, I think that statement still still applies here. Sunny Day doesn't have the STAB + Swift Swim kind of thing that Rain has, but it does get good reason to use Fire + Grass-Types for awesome synergy and utilization of Chlorophyll + Fire-Boosted Moves + Lessening the effectiveness of Water attacks on your team's Water weak Pokemon and etc. In other words, screams balanced/defensive.

As for not having outright enough power to sweep, things like Cherubi can 2HKO even Max Special Defense +Nature Vullaby with Eviolite and the Vulpix I posted above with a Growth HP Rock from this set, as well as things like Deerling being able to handle Lickitung:

Cherubi (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 80 Def / 180 SAtk / 240 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Growth
- SolarBeam
- Weather Ball
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Actual Stats After Eviolite: 21 HP / 9 Atk / 18 Def / 16 SpA / 16 SpD / 13 Spe

Calcs:

Cherubi +2 HP Rock vs 116 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Careful Vullaby:
32 Atk vs 24 Def & 25 HP (70 Base Power): 14 - 18 (56.00% - 72.00%) -> 
Avg of 16 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]

Cherubi +2 HP Rock vs 212 HP / 240 SDef Eviolite Modest Vulpix:
32 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (70 Base Power): 14 - 18 (60.87% - 78.26%) -> 
Avg of 16 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]

Cherubi +2 HP Rock vs 212 HP / 160 SDef Oran Berry Modest Vulpix:
32 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (70 Base Power): 22 - 26 (95.65% - 113.04%) ->
Avg of 22 Damage [B]2HKO (1HKO with any type of previous Damage)[/B]

Cherubi +2 HP Rock vs 36 HP Life Orb Jolly Ponyta:
32 Atk vs 13 Def & 22 HP (70 Base Power): 24 - 30 (109.09% - 136.36%) ->
[B]OHKO[/B]

---

Deerling (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SDef / 76 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Work Up
- Return
- Jump Kick
- Faint Attack

Actual Stats After Eviolite: 24 HP / 16 Atk / 18 def / 9 SpA / 18 SpD / 15 Spe

Calcs:

Deerling +0 Jump Kick vs Standard 196 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Careful Lickitung:
16 Atk vs 21 Def & 28 HP (100 Base Power): 12 - 16 (42.86% - 57.14%) ->
Avg of 14 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]

Deerling +1 Return vs 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Careful Vullaby:
24 Atk vs 24 Def & 25 HP (102 Base Power): 12 - 15 (48.00% - 60.00%) ->
Avg of 13 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]

Deerling +0 Return vs 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Modest Vulpix:
16 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (102 Base Power): 12 - 15 (52.17% - 65.22%) ->
Avg of 13 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]

Deerling +1 Return vs 212 HP / 40 Def Oran Berry Modest Vulpix:
24 Atk vs 11 Def & 23 HP (102 Base Power): 24 - 28 (104.35% - 121.74%) ->
[B]OHKO[/B]

Deerling +1 Return vs 36 HP Life Orb Jolly Ponyta:
24 Atk vs 12 Def & 22 HP (102 Base Power): 22 - 27 (100.00% - 122.73%) ->
[B]OHKO[/B]

Keep in mind that you could also add Life Orb or Synthesis on either set as well, to possibly add more OHKOs/2HKOS or longevity under their belt respectively.

 

[Nails]

Returnig to the eviolite-less metagame is really not something i would personally enjoy, the fact that this meta is more balanced and i encourage variety instead of just spamming the same STAB over and over again is what attact me for the first time (i liked it last gen, but i was mostly gimmicky player)

That's no better than me theorymonning that a lot more pokemon would get significantly better with an eviolite-less metagame. However, the discussion isn't about the metagame, it's about whether or not eviolite is actually broken. And both sides have basically agreed to put off an eviolite test for a while now, at least until we can get the suspects out of the meta or decide they aren't broken.

Taunt Gligar isn't very good stopping other Gligar from setting it up tbh, lol. But yes, it does activate like that Al (I'm like 95% sure).

I replied to this for other reasons but I decided that I might as well say that imo gligar has better things to be doing than laying SR.[/quote]

On the subject of an Eviolite-less metagame - Would it be that hard to open a non-Eviolite ladder for a month or so to see how the metagame changes?

That's not how suspect testing works. We're trying to determine if the item is broken, and not "which metagame we like better". Early gen 4 uu worked this way. I wasn't around for this, ask heysup fo more details.

Finally, with the 15+15 system, people can qualify in 3 battles. Paragraphs was better.

I think it should be 8-12+15, because it is easy as hell to get reqs now. But paragraphs was an awful system. People ripped stuff from the suspect thread and got to vote on the metagame without ever playing it.

 

[Gerard]

Sun teams are awesome if well constructed, one pokemon that i've found incredibly usefull on them is slowbro, most people forget he has Flamethrower and with it and ice beam destroys every other weather inducer (hipo and snover), with bulbasaur, bellsproud, exeggute, etc..., wich can easily kill everything with STABed solarbeam, or if they are afraid of something then they can out it to sleep, then you have the fire pokes that are not as good but still works if you get SR off the field, even frillish is 2HKO by vulpix energy ball so he cannot safely swich, and only other broken pokes keeps them in line Scraggy being able to ice punch, just like meditite, and Missy having icy wind or trick, the few thing that can take a hit can still be sleeped or just killed by spamming solar beam