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np: LC - Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting - now with alt verification!
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What's wrong with this reasoning? We play this game for fun, we should play the meta that people prefer.
You check it like we checked dangerous stuff last Gen. Switch in your houndour or misdreavus on an immunity and ohko with the appropriate move, or predict it using a coverage move and stay in to ko. That's what LC was.
Scarfers can check scraggy way better if it loses a third of its bulk. If the opponent has a cottonee, dding and letting it get a sub is more dangerous because its hp fire does 1.5x more to everything that had an eviolite previously. Croagunk shits on it. Plenty of pokemon that don't check it using bulk and instead use speed and power to kill it get a lot better at checking it.
You see the problem with that is, what if half the people like the Eviolite-less metagame more, while the other half enjoy the Eviolite metagame. We would likely never reach a super majority on that as that is pretty much opinionated and that's it. The way Smogon is running suspect tests now doesn't fit into that method, which is what SDS was trying to say.
The best way to first get to a fun metagame in Pokemon, is to find a way to make it healthy and balanced first; otherwise the community gets too split on opinions. We don't want to end up with a "stall is more fun, no more offense team" (or vice versa) war or something ridiculous like that.
This just seems really biased, like you're still carrying a torch for old LC battles. Although there are some suspects that break the metagame atm, that does not mean that we are not on the right track. I could pretty much guarantee you that these same suspects would still be suspects in your eviolite-less metagame as well.
You can't argue that Eviolite is broken just because it makes one suspect Pokemon a bit better. Now if it were a handful of Pokemon I would understand, but you can't just place all the blame on Eviolite for just these significantly advantaged Pokemon. Its as if you're saying we should ban Yache Berry, because Garchomp abuses it so well.
In other words, you're aiming for the stomach when you should be aiming for the heart and as I said before; Scraggy, Meditite, etc., are suspects for much more than just Eviolite.
Scraggy outruns or speed ties a handful of common scarfers after a Dragon Dance, and would likely be running LO in your metagame. Assuming that, it would still have pretty good defensive stats so it would more than likely survive at least one blow, while it would strike back with a LO'd nearly flawless coverage STAB move, while all you have to take said move with is a non eviolite less poke that would likely take a chunk from the move and likely not ohko back, unless they are the somewhat flimsy counters we have that would be worn down so much easier in this metagame. Of course this is just theorymonning though, but it is easy to see how this would play out, after all, it is just somewhat of a repeat of last gen, only with a lot more powerful, and bulkier pokemon thrown into the mix.
Sure this metagame could be playable, but hell, our current metagame is too, why do you guys want to get rid of it so badly, and shell out for our old Hyper Offense everything gen again?!
Sum it^ all up in one sentence: DON'T FIX IT IF IT ISN'T THE ONE THAT IS BROKEN!
Not to derail the thread, but I feel as thought the time has come to announce the requirements for voting. Any user in the Top 15 or within 15 points of the Top 15 are eligible to vote. Users who do not qualify but want to vote may submit special paragraphs to acquire voting rights.
In a week or two, depending on how the discussion goes, nominations will begin and voting shortly after that.
In a week or two, depending on how the discussion goes, nominations will begin and voting shortly after that.
I only see people mentioning about Meditites, Misdreavus, Scraggies and stuff here but you've forgotten 2 little guys: Carvanha and Deepseatooth Clamperl.
Carvanha might be even more broken than Scraggy; it can OHKO every pokemon in the metagame after Spikes and Stealth Rock, since the main physical walls (Gligar, Hippopotas, Slowpoke, Duskull) are weak to his STABs. Scarfed Pokémon won't also help because Carvanha can rise its speed by using Protect, and when you switch your scarfer, it will already get +2 speed. I can only think of 3 reliable counters for it: Timburr, Croagunk and Ferroseed. It might be very frail, but he resists every priority move outside of Vacuum Wave, Mach Punch, Quick Attack and Extremespeed.
And about Clamperl, it's not that he's that broken, but the item DeepSeaTooth makes it have aproximately 230 base Special Attack. By switching in a water/fire/ice/steel attack, it can use Shell Smash to OHKO every pokémon in the game. Even Ferroseed, who resists its STAB falls to Ice Beam after spikes damage, so yeah.
Carvanha might be even more broken than Scraggy; it can OHKO every pokemon in the metagame after Spikes and Stealth Rock, since the main physical walls (Gligar, Hippopotas, Slowpoke, Duskull) are weak to his STABs. Scarfed Pokémon won't also help because Carvanha can rise its speed by using Protect, and when you switch your scarfer, it will already get +2 speed. I can only think of 3 reliable counters for it: Timburr, Croagunk and Ferroseed. It might be very frail, but he resists every priority move outside of Vacuum Wave, Mach Punch, Quick Attack and Extremespeed.
And about Clamperl, it's not that he's that broken, but the item DeepSeaTooth makes it have aproximately 230 base Special Attack. By switching in a water/fire/ice/steel attack, it can use Shell Smash to OHKO every pokémon in the game. Even Ferroseed, who resists its STAB falls to Ice Beam after spikes damage, so yeah.
@Clamperl: It is not very well off defensively after a Shell Smash, and it lacks priority. very easy bait for the variety of priority users in LC.
Well, then, there you go!
Don't those two statements contradict each other? Scraggy, Meditite, and all those pokemon in the etc, we've never, ever seen them without Eviolite in the gen 5 metagame. Eviolite significantly improves nearly every pokemon in LC, since nearly every pokemon in LC seems to be running it.
Anyway, I don't see any problem behind testing a LC without Eviolite. You say, "half the people like the Eviolite-less metagame more, while the other half enjoy the Eviolite metagame," but again, nobody knows for sure, because we've never seen the flipside of it! I think running a suspect test would make arguments on both sides more than just theorymon, and...that's good.
so yeah.
The main problem I have with this is that, in effect, it is too much like banning Outrage to make Mence balanced (Gen IV example). Many pokes get Outrage, and banning it would make a lot of those pokes unviable, just for the sake of having another OU mon. THe situation here is that each of these broken pokemon have a number of factors that break them, Eviolite being just one of them, and even worse than the situation above is that so many other non-broken pokes can use Eviolite to a good effect, allowing them to be viable, hile not breaking the meta. If you take out Eviolite you ruin the viability of all those pokes, and gain little benefit besides letting things like Croagunk be good again, which is hardly worth the ruining of so many other pokes, and even the entire STYLE of LC Stall, which exists almost solely thanks to Eviolite. And without Eviolite, a lot of the walls and bulky pokes we might use as counters to a lot of these heavy offensive threats, like Tite or Scraggy, will be left unable to do their job, allowing these pokes to sweep even easier simply through attaching an Oran Berry and setting up with that. In short, banning Eviolite is highly unlikely to actually curb the broken-ness of these pokes, will destroy the usefulness of a lot of pokes, such as Hippopotas, to an enormous extent, and essentially remove from the tier the style of stall. While I suppose a test might be apropos, I highly doubt it will have a desired effect, and is too limiting to the variety of viable styles and/or pokes that might be used in LC.
PS. If you want to argue that Eviolite ruins the effectiveness of pokes that do not stat-boost, tell that to any Missy besides NP (of which there are many common kinds), LO Carvanha, Scarf Mienfoo, et cetera.
PS. If you want to argue that Eviolite ruins the effectiveness of pokes that do not stat-boost, tell that to any Missy besides NP (of which there are many common kinds), LO Carvanha, Scarf Mienfoo, et cetera.
Crux
Banned deucer.
The Yache Berry and Outrage analogy are flawed. Neither of them are remotely applicable to the current situation with Eviolite. Mainly because Eviolite obviously applies to multiple Pokemon and arguably breaks them. By definition therefore, Eviolite is broken. Banning it however, becomes a matter of preference and all the arguments I have seen insofar have been to that end.
We have seen people running said Pokemon without Eviolite (the etc. part only applies to maybe Misdreavus in my opinion, so yeah), but you're correct, we have yet to see them in an environment where Eviolite is absent from the equation. Although Eviolite is very common, it is definitely not game breaking; and if you're going to use some kind of silly over centralizing argument, you should be reminded that not only was Oran Berry on almost each and every Pokemon last gen, it would most certainly take Eviolite's place if it were to be banned. After that happens are you going to argue that Oran Berry gives Pokemon to good of an advantage because it's everywhere and makes them harder to kill?
True nobody knows for sure, but you missed the point entirely, why test something if it is not broken. You don't have to experience a nuclear war to know it wouldn't turn out well. If you want to see how an Eviolite-less Metagame vs Current Metagame would fair in opinions, create a poll thread then first maybe, but I'd bet that the community would be split or against Eviolite-less shift in Metagame.
Eviolite is healthy for this metagame, I really can't help but think you guys dislike that LC is becoming balanced (in terms of Offensive teams vs. Defensive teams), and want your old Fast Hyper Offense team back. Arguing which metagame is more enjoyable is like arguing which Religion you think is best, it will get us no where, just try to let us at least get to a healthy balanced metagame first before you start suggesting things like this.
The only examples I can think of when Smogon does suspect voting for the enjoyment of the metagame, rather than truly the health of it, is for things like Baton Pass (3rd gen), evasion items, OHKO moves, and etc., and Eviolite doesn't even relate or come close to the annoyance of those suspects. In any case, we should just wait until we finish up testing Meditite, Scraggy, and possibly Misdreavus (or any suspected Pokemon after this Suspect round) before bringing this subject up again, it would would most likely be too soon to even properly test Eviolite if given the chance.
Outrage broke Mence (and Garchomp to a lesser extent) in Gen IV. Other dragons got it without being broken.
Eviolite helps break Tite in Gen V. Other pokes, like Hippopotas get it without being broken.
Explain to me how it is different besides the fact that it's an item and not a move, as the situations are still nearly the same.
How about this analogy then: In OU Leftovers is by far the most common item in there. Many Pokemon use it for healing, to prevent SS damage, etc., and it is an all around great item to use when you have nothing else that is really needed. But say you give Leftovers to a Sub Leech Seeder or Stallrein in Hail, they could take this simple 6% healing item and tack on some more healing with Leech Seed or Ice Body respectively, and use them in tandem with Protect/Substitute. They essentially get 100% of their health back and are extremely hard to kill. (I know they are not THAT good in OU, but just go with it, I'm trying to make a point.)
Now sure they would definitely not be broken, or half as effective as they would be without Leftovers, as it pushes them over the edge in terms this "brokeness". But now is Leftovers the one that should be banned? After all it is the one that pushes them over the edge. Obviously no, there is another factor here that we seem to overlook, just like the Scraggy/Meditite suspects situation, what sets these Pokemon apart from the rest is their personal advantages (abilities and stats and etc.). Now if it were Leftovers that were broken, pokemon with similar, but maybe not as great stats OR moves/etc. would be able to replicate this set and become just as game breaking, but they can't because they lack certain features the broken Pokemon have.
Just like how Meditite/Scraggy have sky high stats (Meditite mostly Attack and above average defenses, while Scraggy has everything else besides SpA), Walrein and Sub Seeders have Ice Body/Leech Seed respectively. Now if these said stats/abilities (or broken whatever supported by item) were a whole lot more widespread it would be a different story, but it is just present on these few Pokemon. Why would you take away Leftovers punishing so many Pokemon who don't break said item, but still benefit greatly from it. Without Leftovers, the vast majority of Pokemon would be taken down significantly faster, thanks to nothing being able to aid with residual damage as well as Leftovers did as an item, and with its absence, encouraging more Offensive item choices to be thrown around, such as, Life Orb, Choice Band, etc. This would result in a more highly encouraged offensive environment, over a defensive one. Sound familiar? Yeah it is.
There really is no sense is stabbing something in the stomach (taking away the not broken on its own item: Eviolite) punishing almost everyone in a way, when shooting it in the heart would be better for all parties (banning the broken Pokemon that break themselves). The only real difference in the Leftovers analogy (its the best I could come with atm) is that Scraggy/Meditite don't become broken soley because of the combination of their assets and Eviolite, I believe they would definitely be just as broken in a metagame where Eviolite is not in the equation, thanks again to their significant assets.
Crux
Banned deucer.
The Outrage analogy is irrelevant because Outrage didn't break Salamence. The fact that it could run two different sets with different counters, both of which were very good, broke Salamence. Yes it had Outrage, and that didn't help, but Outrage didn't break Salamence. That is what makes the analogy irrelevant.
Additionally, assuming that Outrage did break Salamence, it did only that. It broke a single pokemon. Heysup sums it up nicely in
this post. Eviolite, by definition, is broken, however, banning it becomes a matter of preference.
EDIT: The same thing goes for the Leftovers argument, it is a case of the single Pokemon abusing the item, making the Pokemon broken, not the item that is broken. In the case of Eviolite, it has arguably broken multiple Pokemon, making it a completely different situation.
Also, Subseeders aren't broken, so the analogy doesn't really make sense to apply here. Yes, Leftovers makes them better, but they aren't broken.
Additionally, assuming that Outrage did break Salamence, it did only that. It broke a single pokemon. Heysup sums it up nicely in
EDIT: The same thing goes for the Leftovers argument, it is a case of the single Pokemon abusing the item, making the Pokemon broken, not the item that is broken. In the case of Eviolite, it has arguably broken multiple Pokemon, making it a completely different situation.
Also, Subseeders aren't broken, so the analogy doesn't really make sense to apply here. Yes, Leftovers makes them better, but they aren't broken.
Really, man? Because Mence existed in Gen 3 no problem, and I think if it only got Dragon Claw, i would certainly not have been banned. Also, you fail to mention the fact that without walls to effectively stop sweepers, they will still be broken, as Oran Berry is still really useful for set-up sweepers as we learned last genThe Outrage analogy is irrelevant because Outrage didn't break Salamence. The fact that it could run two different sets with different counters, both of which were very good, broke Salamence. Yes it had Outrage, and that didn't help, but Outrage didn't break Salamence. That is what makes the analogy irrelevant.
Additionally, assuming that Outrage did break Salamence, it did only that. It broke a single pokemon. Heysup sums it up nicely in
EDIT: The same thing goes for the Leftovers argument, it is a case of the single Pokemon abusing the item, making the Pokemon broken, not the item that is broken. In the case of Eviolite, it has arguably broken multiple Pokemon, making it a completely different situation.
Crux
Banned deucer.
Yes, man. Outrage did not break Salamence, I'm not going to say anything more about it because we are supposed to be talking about LC and these analogies are all irrelevant. O.o
I'm not sure if I fully understand your second point. You seem to be saying that if you take away Eviolite sweepers will be even more broken because they have Oran Berry. Taking your reference to last gen, sweepers were just as easy to deal through priority and revenge killing, which was far easy without Eviolite. We can't really argue this since it's all theorymon though, which is why we need a test :)
I'm not sure if I fully understand your second point. You seem to be saying that if you take away Eviolite sweepers will be even more broken because they have Oran Berry. Taking your reference to last gen, sweepers were just as easy to deal through priority and revenge killing, which was far easy without Eviolite. We can't really argue this since it's all theorymon though, which is why we need a test :)
The definition of an analogy is relating two situations. The fact that my analogy references OU does not mean it is not relevant here, as, to be perfectly honest, it's all just pokemon, regardless of the significant changes between the two tiers. Also, the fact that that argument is the only thing you can say that logically refute my point, and has just been refuted itself, means my point still stands. Priority already can revenge these pokes, and very few priority moves will OHKO Scraggy (who I'm using as an example here just becase it fits), and with Drain Punch doing more damage to pokes thanks to the lack of Eviolite, you will likely have a very large amount of HP during a sweep. Also, even with Eviolite, Scraggy is OHKOd by STAB HJK, and takes a hefty toll from STAB Mach Punch or combos of other priority moves.
Crux
Banned deucer.
Look, none of these analogies can be applied here, because none of them are even remotely similar to the case we have with Eviolite and arguing over them is pointless, as I said before. No other item or move has ever had the same effect or a similar effect on a metagame that Eviolite has on Little Cup. The Outrage analogy is inapplicable, beause it references a situation in which a single move (according to you) broke a single pokemon, whereas Eviolite breaks multiple pokemon.
Using any analogy to argue against an Eviolite ban is impossible because Eviolite is unprecedented, as is its effect on the meta.
Scraggy, taking your example, is easier to deal with when it doesn't have Eviolite. More stuff KOs it and it takes more damage from priority, making it easier to deal with. Whilst it also does more damage to things that dont have Eviolite, it is still far easier to deal with. The same goes for most setup sweepers.
Using any analogy to argue against an Eviolite ban is impossible because Eviolite is unprecedented, as is its effect on the meta.
Scraggy, taking your example, is easier to deal with when it doesn't have Eviolite. More stuff KOs it and it takes more damage from priority, making it easier to deal with. Whilst it also does more damage to things that dont have Eviolite, it is still far easier to deal with. The same goes for most setup sweepers.
Me and Crux came to a compromise on IRC. I agreed that it couldn't hurt to have a suspect test with Eviolite (even though I think it's unneeded), BUT I only think it would be ok after everything else (basically current suspects Meditite/Scraggy and etc) are done being tested. In other words, VERY low priority. Although we still disagree on the priority of such a test :/.
However, I don't know how one would promote this type of test since it probably wouldn't be strong enough to fit the criteria needed in order to start a Suspect test.
However, I don't know how one would promote this type of test since it probably wouldn't be strong enough to fit the criteria needed in order to start a Suspect test.
Eviolite probably won't unbreak these pokes, and they can always be tested again if it really is banned, which I highly doubt will occur.
IIRC we aren't going to unban anything to retest it. Once something is banned, its banned forever.masterful said:
SkyNet
MediEvil!
It probably won't as LO scraggy and LO Meditite will rip through an Eviolite metagame but it will settle some people's mind.
I support this !_!
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