New OU List

[ShinyElite]

This is interesting, to say the least. I'm a little shocked, but I'm glad to see Roserade on the OU list, because it was one of the first Pokemon I used.

That being said, it still has one of the first movesets. But even handicapped, it can clean the streets of Manhattan for those who are unprepared. It's not Blissey by any means but I've been surprised at how it's survived some Special hits.

Would I be wrong to say that everyone's a little bit, even just the slightest confused in this thread? :P

The fact that the OU is shrinking.... is that good or bad? Looks like it would be a split decision amongst people.
Personally, I don't like it, I wish there was more of a variety of Pokemon to see and battle. But on the other hand.... It doesn't really matter much to me. I'm going to lose anyway. :P


Bye bye Wobbuffet...

And Obamasnow..
I will bring you back Obamasnow! Don't worry! I WILL BRING YOU BACK! *sobs* *flowers*

I want to see what happens to Garchomp.
Is it too early to think about what 5th Gen will bring?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

That's ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. Does Stealth Rock destroy the metagame?

Does it have a large impact on the Metagame? Sure looks that way. The current OU list has 1 4x Rock weak pokemon out of 45, and only 6 2x Rock weak pokemon.

There could be other factors, but the fact that 84.4% of the OU list is at least neutral to Stealth Rocks is at the very least interesting.

No. You're basically saying "Pokémon are weak to Stealth Rock, so we should ban the item!". The sheer illogicality of such an argument just... gahh.

Its a widespread easily learned move that certainly appears to be having a strong impact on the metagame. Why not at least look at it?

 

[Phizzlax]

Stealth Rock is being looked at by admins right now by the way.

 

[Aint No Sunshine]

Stealth Rock...
I'm not really sure where to go on this. It's kind of a necessary evil. Yes, it has a huge impact on the metagame since Focus Sash is all but nonexistant on anything that doesn't lead and 84% of OU is neutral to Stealth Rock or resists it. There are really only two viable Spikers in OU and not many more Toxic Spikers, but just about every Rock, Ground, or Steel Pokemon in OU has access to Stealth Rock. Even Deoxys-E and the Pixies can use it, although Azelf and Uxie are the only ones that ever do. It does weaken Salamence and Gyarados, but in some ways, that's necessary. The sheer unpredictability of Salamence and its ability to attack from both sides of the spectrum without setting up. In a way, Stealth Rock balances those two out. But it does reduce the effectiveness of Gyarados against Garchomp. Without Stealth Rock, Bulky Gyarados could very well have been a reliable Garchomp counter. But without it, Focus Sash could very well run rampant, and Sandstorm and Hail would rise again to deal with this. There are Pokemon that are invulnerable to Sandstorm and could potentially run Focus Sash (ie Sash SD Lucario).

 

[Little Green Yoda]

Garchomp is being used about the same Blissey was in earlier DP, and OU was larger than it is now. Garchomp's usage alone didn't bump those Pokemon to BL.

Do you have the numbers to back that up? I don't have time to run any calculations but a quick glance at the raw usage stats (both unweighted uses and weighted points) show Garchomp used more heavily now than Blissey was back in the early months of Shoddy (since usage stats were kept, that is). Obviously, that is skewed due to the growth of Shoddy since then, so I'm hoping you have some figures to back up your statement that Garchomp's current usage = Blissey's previous usage.

 

[IggyBot]

That's ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. Does Stealth Rock destroy the metagame? No. You're basically saying "Pokémon are weak to Stealth Rock, so we should ban the item!". The sheer illogicality of such an argument just... gahh.

Actually, I've thought a lot about a metagame without Stealth Rock recently. While Stealth Rock keeps pokemon in "check" so to speak, it also stops pokemon from seeing play that are extremely good (Yanmega, Moltres, Magmortar and Articuno are four pokemon that aren't getting the use that they deserve in my opinion). Stealth Rock obviously neuters all of these pokemon. I'd really be interested in seeing the effects of a Stealth Rock-less metagame vs what we have right now.

This is going way off topic, so anyone who wishes to discuss this with me can send me a PM.

 

[Kagster123]

Actually, I've thought a lot about a metagame without Stealth Rock recently. While Stealth Rock keeps pokemon in "check" so to speak, it also stops pokemon from seeing play that are extremely good (Yanmega, Moltres, Magmortar and Articuno are four pokemon that aren't getting the use that they deserve in my opinion). Stealth Rock obviously neuters all of these pokemon. I'd really be interested in seeing the effects of a Stealth Rock-less metagame vs what we have right now.

This is going way off topic, so anyone who wishes to discuss this with me can send me a PM.

Yanmega's Overused, so i think it is seeng its fair share of play.

You also forgot Charizard. :(

 

[Aldaron]

The Stealth Rock issue is simply an issue of people taking the wrong attitude with banning. Banning should be the absolute last effort, and should never be considered except for absolutely obvious cases, like Kyogre (which manages to centralize even the Ubers metagame).

But like Iggybotto said, off topic.

The new OU list is interesting...Kingdra absolutely deserves to be OU, people need to give it credit. In rain, it is the most destructive force in the OU metagame. Getting Rain up should not even be that difficult, since with Stealth Rock Kingdra can deal heavy damage to Abomasnow with Draco Meteor and can OHKO Hippowdon and 2HKO Tyranitar. Perhaps an RMT is in the calling :P

Everyone knows I have been a super advocate of Roserade, so no surprises there. I honestly consider her to be a top level lead, and top level Pokemon. Hopefully she slides into the top 20 soon.

Donphan taking a hit was no surprise to me, as Hippowdon is better in nearly every way besides the Ice Shard priority and Rapid Spin, and Rapid Spinning on a non Stall team is in my opinion a very risky option.

I'm surprised Starmie didn't take more of a hit, as in into the non OU category, as she is pretty much outclassed by Deoxys-S in all areas except for Rapid Spinning, resisting Fire / Water / Ice and luring out Blissey. People must really take Rapid Spinning seriously still.

This probably deserves to be in the other topic, but whatever. The hit Blissey took isn't surprising due to the loss of Wish (with I still disagree with but hey whatever). Of course, I now have every intention of absolutely overloading my teams with Specs users and Togekiss / Azelf, especially since Celebi has also slipped into the top 10, and it is predominantly physically defensive.

 

[Peanut-Lover]

Spiritomb's rise can be attributed to Deoxys S, as Spiritomb completely counters SuperPower/PsychoBoost/Extremspeed Life Orb versions, with Sucker punch followed by pursuit.

Roserade is one of the best Toxi-Spikers that has use aside from just dying so that a switch occurs -

I want a revote on Donphan - Its way more useful than milotic, and does a better job at spinning than Forry.

Kingdra was always meh, but Druffy at least has surprise factor to keep it up with his 2 cousins.

PorygonZ was a surprise, but not as much as Scizor being OU for a long time.




Predictions:
1.) Mamoswine will die out unless Osamasnow gets back to OU.
2.) Donphan will jump back up, now that Wobbs is out, and Mamo will die.



I'll publish some statistics about the OU pokemon - types, common move weaknesses, physical vs. special, etc.

 

[cim]

Spiritomb's rise can be attributed to Deoxys S, as Spiritomb completely counters SuperPower/PsychoBoost/Extremspeed Life Orb versions, with Sucker punch followed by pursuit.

I was going to debate the merits of your argument by countering that Deoxys-S still isn't used nearly enough and is easy to counter, but then I realized that you were actually trying to convince people that the standard Deoxys-S uses ExtremeSpeed (I tried it and it didn't work well enough) and 3 attacks none of which hit Spiritomb. Yeah, Spiritomb is one of many counters, but it can't be directly attributed to Deoxys-S. You can't say that for sure.

 

[tgva8889]

Nothing here really surprises me, actually. Except the rise of Spiritomb. It seems outclassed as a threat by so many different things, both defensively and offensively. I suppose its typing and, therefore, lack of weaknesses might have something to do with that.

I've actually been away from the OU metagame for a while focusing on other elements of Pokemon. But the new OU list is interesting, to say the least. I still look at some of the Pokemon on there and question what they have to bring to the table, but being inexperienced probably has something to do with that.

Perhaps it's time to re-evaluate my OU strategy...

 

[Peanut-Lover]

It is a prime counter though, and people are finally realising it has other uses over Dusky - not many, but STAB, high power priority move is a highlight.



I have to say that Rosey may very well fall - Its hard to get in, but was possibly able to set up courtesy of an increase in encore pokemon (like wobbbufet).



Speed, Bulky Sweepers (like Snorlax, Scizor, Chomp, cirrect Lucarios), and spiking have become big.

 

[Droideka88]

When will the tier page be updated with the new OU and BL list?

http://www.smogon.com/dp/tiers/

Now that Porygon Z is BL, I'm curious if some people may consider trying Porygon 2 out..since it's currently BL.

Porygon 2 vs Porygon Z...that will be the day. :)

 

[X-Act]

When will the tier page be updated with the new OU and BL list?

http://www.smogon.com/dp/tiers/

When the mechanism that allows me to update the tiers in the site is available again.

 

[Urza]

imo p2 is far better than pz. it's more versatile by loads, and trace as an ability is just pwnsome. trace a garchomp sandveil and ice beam the fucker back to hell. trace a gyarados or salamence intimidate and threaten a ohko. trace a yanmega speed boost and watch the fun as you charge beam sweep.

oh. pz can ohko blissey. who gives a damn? p2 is so much better...

 

[Jenigmat]

Just out of curiosity, when the Smogon server on shoddy is up and running, will OU list be generated from the stats from the ladder there, the Official ladder, or a combination of the two?

 

[BlueCookies]

Completely right. A lot of people have been throwing around "correlation is not causation" lately as a defense every time someone suggests that two things are linked, but the reality is that sometimes those things are actually linked. Like in this case, in which it can't reasonably even be argued against.

Actually Umbarsc is correct. He's saying Correlation does not equal causation. It's still possible that Garchomp is overcentralizing, it's just that your logic being used to declare it overcentralizing is wrong. Just because Garchomp's usage is huge does not mean it is the only reason.

Good list X-Act, I'm actually not surprised by anything.

 

[phalanx]

i have a hatred of yanmega, its too hard to stop with its speed boosts, if rocks go, my jask has free reign of revenge killing and passing, works both ways for me I hate rocks and I hate yanmega, i will still have to put up with one no matter what happens so to me i dont care.
Is there any point in discussing how broken garchomp is or isn't yet again, the main problem we have here is how its weighted usage is effecting the size of the tier itself here it seems.

porygon-2 tracing wonder guard is far better ;), but porygon-2 is a wall and porygon-z is a sweeper you cant really compare the two to one another.
I'm surprised at jask going, it has a few more tricks that people obviously miss, I put it in my team when it was BL last time, it has and will still serve my insane speedy sweeper craving still, and as one of these is porygon-z which enjoys the speed for jask thats is staying, I'm looking to garchomp currently, I use it but if it goes so what there is another poke I quite fancy to replace it.

surprised at blissey falling so much, that top 3 looked unbreakable for ages.

 

[Bourbon]

I dunno, I use this:

Porygon2 @ Leftovers
Calm Nature
228 HP, 152 DEF, 80 Satk, 40 SpD

Ice Beam
Discharge
Recover
Toxic/Magic Coat/Trick Room/Recycle (+lum)

Those EVs on your Porygon2 are rather wasteful. Here is what these ones do:

368 HP, max lefties recovery. 266 Special Attack. Enough Special Defense to take a Draco Meteor from Mence should you mispredict. The rest is put into Defense... allowing Porygon2 to be the game's best Gyarados counter.

 

[IronGross]

Thanks, I'll adopt these EVs.
Hey, you left out 10 EVs, I poured them into SpD.

 

[Automatic]

I can't believe people are still denying Garchomps over-centralization of OU.


If Roserade is really on the rise, I'm worried about the fate of my star sweeper. /sad

 

[Bourbon]

Thanks, I'll adopt these EVs.
Hey, you left out 10 EVs, I poured them into SpD.

Sorry, yeah... it because my Porygon2 only had 29 HP IVs, and I forgot to move the extras somewhere when posting it.

@ Automatic: I can't believe it either... 7000 more usages than last month. That's a huge jump; more than Blissey dropped and more than Gallade rose by a huge margin.

 

[Jumpman16]

you can get slightly better stats by making p2 modest since that's its best base stat

EVs: calm, 228HP/152Def/80SpA/48SpD
stats: 368HP/254Def/266SpA/261SpD

EVs: modest, 228HP/152Def/128SpD:
stats: 368HP/254Def/270SpA/259SpD

you only need 254SpD to survive a specsmence DM guaranteed but that's assuming no field hazards so I don't know if adding SpD EVs to that end makes sense

also 269+ SpA is what's required to OHKO 4HP/0SpD non-yache Garchomp

 

[ExoM7]

Wholeheartedly agree.

I think it's cool to finally see Roserade getting her props :D

 

[Old Man Jenkins]

And people say Nintendo doesn't know how to build in-game teams. Time for Gastrodon usage to skyrocket and knock that stupid mudfish off his undeserved perch. It's slug time!

Also, post #300 :)

I still say that Gastrodon is nearly completely superior to Swampert...

Roar, Stealth Rocks, and about 10% more defense is all Swampert has over Gastrodon.

And the slug still beats Swampert with Recover.