Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Toxic [ Tiering Note Post #2 ]

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yeah but none of those pokemon manage to be as consistent at getting up and keeping hazards on the field as gliscor is, with or without gholdengo. the others can at least be worn down and/or taken advantage of much more easily and they all actually rely on having gholdengo keep their hazards on the field, meanwhile trying to exploit gliscor is a very tall task especially if you lack prior knowledge on what its running. you also have to position yourself very carefully to get a safe switchin, lest you end up eating an EQ, knock off, toxic, etc. on the switch. not to mention its bulk and longevity means it can easily set spikes over and over again over the course of a game no matter how much its forced out or how much its hazards are cleared, something no other hazard setter can do
To an extent, yes, but the other hazard setters aren't strictly outclassed and have still been menacing Post-HOME as well. The thing about these hazard setters is that in the case of Ting-Lu, if it has something such as wish support/rest, it can do effectively the same thing but with far more bulk, and they don't necessarily all rely on Gholdengo. For instance, Ting-Lu is almost always better in terms of a more offensive hazards setter/lead, whereas Gliscor sees more utility on more balanced structures. As far as consistency goes, these are all very consistent in my opinion, and Ting-Lu can even screw with Tusk via tera ghost. Furthermore, if you have a team stacked with boots, options like magic guard Clefable are there, as well as general options such as Corviknight, Hatterene, and substitute/taunt as respectable check options for no-boots teams. In general, however, most balance teams are going to be running boots anyways, and while offense teams aren't, they have the luxury of being able to overpower Gliscor long-term; in shorter games, it's harder to find opportunities to heal Gliscor for sure.

Now, as for why I even want Gliscor in the tier, it's because I find it as a nice option against knockers such as Mandibuzz, Meowscarada, Great Tusk, some variants of Clefable (such as moonblast knock off encore/stealth rock moonlight sets and if you're specially defensive), and other underrated knock off users.

Gliscor even gives more counterplay towards volt switch users such as Zapdos pretty freely, which I am definitely down for.
 

awyp

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Not going to lie, this is not directed at every post but majority of this thread is filled with bad points that I skim through (I'm talking about the one liners and people who aren't getting reqs commenting their opinion). Please lets respect the thread, if you're not getting reqs you can comment but please make it a worthy read vs shitposting.

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I'm going to make a quick post because Gliscor is not something I feel strongly about.

So initially when it got released, I said this mon was going to be the best mon from DLC outside the new mons like Ogerpon. A lot of comments about Gliscor sucking was that losing Roost + Defog was big...as if protect didn't make Rotom-Wash viable in generation 9 lol. Anyway still having access to U-Turn, Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, (now) Spikes, and Toxic was more then enough to make it viable.

Some points I'll touch on.

It's affect on team builder: Whenever a mon affects the team builder where you have to prepare for it, should always be worthy of a suspect test or ban because it becomes overwhelming to constantly deal with. In Gliscor's case this is magnified in conjunction with tera [which you don't have to] Ice Beam is not going to be you're only way out. Gliscor is pretty damn fat, if you go 252 HP / 252 SpDef with Spikes + Protect (Poison Heal) and go with a Gholdengo as your partner that dynamic becomes uncompetitive to an extent, and what I mean by that you can just take advantage of that duo and you'll win majority of your matchups on the ladder. Gliscor is the easiest Spike stacker in the history of SV OU, it's so easy to just keep clicking and whenever you feel 'uncomfortable' just click protect, you're fat enough where a majority of the meta cannot OHKO.

It's a great Knock absorber: Yeah this is self explanatory this a point that is not often talked about, really just brings it up to S tier, it's the cherry on top frfr.

Storm Zone is pro ban: Yeah whenever Storm Zone is pro-ban, shits broken lol.

Swords Dance set: You can go 252 HP / 252 SpDef, you can go 252 HP / 252 Speed Jolly, you can go 252 Att / 252 Speed Jolly, you have so much routes you can go with this set and it's hard to tell which one your opp is running. On top of that most Gliscors I expect to see are passive, so when you see something setting up on your face with the potential to sweep with Agility / Scale Shot, that is a very versatile Pokémon. It's a S tier defensive mon to be quite honest and it's a A tier sweeper a combination like that in my opinion can be very hard to justify keeping it in OU. You can go Knock Off, Crabhammer (Tera Water), Ice Fang, and Facade. It is not a weak move pool at all, and you will do a serviceable damage to anything.

+2 252 Atk Tera Ground Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Great Tusk: 216-256 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gliscor is underexplored: Same issue with Ursaluna Blood Moon, I feel like a majority of it's movepool is still underexplored, it has access to Taunt, Counter, Acrobatics / Dual Wingbeat (Tera Flying), Psychic Fang (For screens), Stone Edge, and High Horsepower (For Grassy). This is not included with some of the moves up brought up in this thread or in my post, it has an extremely deep bag.

I can go further but I don't want to make this post too long, I'll be voting ban.
 
but I also trust people like Highv0ltag3. I trust people like SupaGmoney
i can't believe that there are people on this site who are actually, unironically in the pocket of big stall
Also, I've pulled up the usage stats and Ting-Lu dropped by 5% and Samurott-Hisui dropped by 15%. Honestly, what you heard is not far off, but I do have hope for Samurott-Hisui; its usage is still respectable at 9% and it sets itself apart drastically from the other spikes setters.
according to the 1630 stats for august (latest unambiguously pre-dlc stats) and october (most recent available stats), ting-lu went from something like 17% usage pre-dlc to something like 7% now, so it's dropped twice as much as what you said. hamurott went from 24% to 9%, so that part was accurate
 
according to the 1630 stats for august (latest unambiguously pre-dlc stats) and october (most recent available stats), ting-lu went from something like 17% usage pre-dlc to something like 7% now, so it's dropped twice as much as what you said. hamurott went from 24% to 9%, so that part was accurate
I was using Pikalytics, just checked the other thread and yeah it's 7% right now, that's my bad.

Currently testing out Ting-Lu hazard stack though, and I must say it does still feel really strong. Definitely think it's criminally underrated.
 
I was using Pikalytics, just checked the other thread and yeah it's 7% right now, that's my bad.

Currently testing out Ting-Lu hazard stack though, and I must say it does still feel really strong. Definitely think it's criminally underrated.
FYI, Pikalytics's numbers have nothing to do with Smogon's. They have 0 relevance to Smogon formats.

Ting-Lu is still good, but its stocks will go up a lot after Gliscor is banned. Something with Giratina-level bulk and Spikes will always have a good niche in OU. Gliscor is the best Spiker, but there are definitely things Ting-Lu can do that Gliscor could never even dream of doing due to the difference in bulk (It has over double the special bulk in case you didn't know).
 
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ausma

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In case my initial vote didn't convey my stance, I believe Gliscor should be banned.

Gliscor is a Pokemon that's always had a reputation for its durability and resilience into common means of progress. In fact this is a massive draw over Landorus-T in Gens 6 and 7; being one of the few Pokemon that completely and utterly doesn't care for Knock Off (post-Toxic Orb) or status makes it a Pokemon that is extremely easy to make safe plays with, especially with its great bulk, typing, and easy progress-making utility of its own.

In Generation 9 some things have changed for Gliscor; it lost Roost, but in exchange received several great tools while keeping its most important ones in a generation where distribution on moves like Defog, Knock Off, and Scald have been marred and an easy tool to reliably pressure it in Hidden Power has been removed. I believe Gliscor's fundamental strengths have always been obscenely useful, but Gen 9 is where they are strongest. Much of its newfound brokenness is circumstantial for the aforementioned reasons, but Gliscor's fundamentals are still jarringly potent and actively deny the means of progress that are readily available for the tier.

However, it's the things it can do with its resilience into progress that push it to an egregious extent. Entering Generation 9 it obtained both Toxic Spikes and Spikes, and it's obviously excellent at using them. This is thanks to how well it can take advantage of passive gamestates that occur more frequently thanks to its resilience into status/Knock Off, but this doesn't give the full picture about why it deserves priority in evaluation over Gholdengo imo. Aside from its ability to efficiently stack hazards, we have seen a truly obscene amount of set permutations that take advantage of its access to Swords Dance, Knock Off, Toxic, U-turn, and Taunt in order to diversify its style of pressure and punish attempts to respond to it, including mirrors. While hazards can complement these tools, Gliscor is able to use these tools independently to create progress or take advantage of the gamestates it can force, all while being able to seamlessly adapt to conventional means of counterplay.

What results of this is a metagame that is a nightmare to navigate, especially in teambuilding. Because the means of progress available to the tier are so easily negated by its presence, very strange options are forced to try and disrupt it; while this seems like a good thing on paper to encourage creative building, forcing suboptimal options is not ideal nor pallatable. However there is actually a very prominent move it forces higher usage of that creates absurd volatility in gameplay: Tera Blast. Laugh it up, but I'm dead serious. There have been several successful teams such as Storm Zone's Cinderace team and a surge in Sandy Shocks/Dragonite/opposing Landorus-T trying to take advantage of this move to delete Gliscor, that notably boast natural great benefits in pressuring similar Ground- and Flying-type targets. This causes the move to be used in practice more often to tech other Pokemon due to the move being on the set anyway; I cannot tell you how many times in my reqs run I've run into Water- and Ice-type Tera Blast even without a Gliscor on the team I used.

By itself this is already a knock against Gliscor as it is heavily warping teambuilding, but what makes it worse is that Tera Blast in my eyes is a move defined by it creating surprise-focused interactions, teching matchups, and inflating coverage profiles unpredictably. If your reason to use Tera is to use this move more often, you undermine the interactions of Tera that are actually interesting and have positive effects on the tier, consequently causing the mechanic to be a genuine headache more often than not. If Gliscor single-handedly causes a volatile, matchup-oriented move--that greatly warps how a major mechanic is used--to be more of a frequent presence, shouldn't that be telling to some extent as to its chokehold and the effect of its interactions?

I hope this post can provide a bit of perspective into how Gliscor interacts with the metagame, and why I think we would be better off without it.
 
One of the major factors for why people are arguing for a gliscor ban is because it restricts team building too much because it can set hazards as well as being hard to kill and requiring sets to run certain moves to pressure this mon such as ice spinner and ice beam.

2. Teambuilding

team building is miserable in this meta game. and this seems to be a common sentiment around the player base whether that be the higher-level tournament players the regular ladder players.

But WHY? well it all comes back to spikes and the difficulties of removing spikes. quite simply it’s HARD to consistently get rid of hazards within MOST structures + most pokemon because more than half of them can’t get the job done on gliscor and its best parter in crime ghold. and even if you do get rid of those spikes then gliscor comes BACK AND SPIKES AGAIN AND AGAIN.

so now you need a choice between running a less optimal team that can “consistently” remove hazards OR using a team that doesn’t care about spikes as much as others.

this in general leads to
1. HO teams
2. superman teams (stall, semi stall and some balance)
3. or balance teams with ace tusk (this can have some niche defogger that can fog on hold as well)
I do agree with a lot of what this post is saying, I disagree with the conculsion that this is because of 1 gliscor and 2 getting rid of gliscor solves this problem. Gliscor does not make hazards too hard to remove. Corviknight is able to deal with hazards quite well against gliscor for example as does Weezing-Galar (levitate). Furthermore gliscor can only run 4 moves. If you are worried about spikes, then you know spikes and protect, which leaves 2 moves for toxic, EQ, and knock off meaning it cannot run all 3. If its not knock, talon flame can come in and defog on it. If it gets toxiced then you can roost to heal and keep removing hazards when necessary. Along that train if its not toxic mandibuzz can answer it as can great tusk. If its not knock off then pokemon like iron treads can handle it or air baloon ghold could come in for free to set up. Hazard removal on gliscor is not the problem. Their are many ways to deal with that. The problem with hazard removal lies with other problems in the meta game, which I will not name here as this thread is for gliscor not other pokemon. If we get rid of gliscor can that improve the metagame to more than 3 teams. Well actually I think it will make the meta game worse. Hazard stacks will still be a problem that requires ace and tusk, HO, or fat teams. But wait. Now if we get rid of gliscor something happens. The fat/stall teams that room boots no longer can use glisor as a knock of absorber. That means they become more fragile to things like great tusk knock off on hazard stacks. And while a lot of great tusks are not running knock off right now its because they run ice spinner to pressure gliscor. Without gliscor they are free to go back to knock off. This means that balance ace/tusk teams still are viable as is HO. But hazard stacks will continue to be a problem which will prevent other strategies from being viable, and since fat teams lose a knock off absorber, they will become less viable as knock off + hazard stacks will be even harder for them to deal with. This will cause there to only have HO teams and balance teams with ace and tusk being viable.

What results of this is a metagame that is a nightmare to navigate, especially in teambuilding. Because the means of progress available to the tier are so easily negated by its presence, very strange options are forced to try and disrupt it; while this seems like a good thing on paper to encourage creative building, forcing suboptimal options is not ideal nor pallatable. However there is actually a very prominent move it forces higher usage of that creates absurd volatility in gameplay: Tera Blast. Laugh it up, but I'm dead serious. There have been several successful teams such as Storm Zone's Cinderace team and a surge in Sandy Shocks/Dragonite/opposing Landorus-T trying to take advantage of this move to delete Gliscor, that notably boast natural great benefits in pressuring similar Ground- and Flying-type targets. This causes the move to be used in practice more often to tech other Pokemon due to the move being on the set anyway; I cannot tell you how many times in my reqs run I've run into Water- and Ice-type Tera Blast even without a Gliscor on the team I used.
This is also something I want to address as I disagree with the conclusions of this post that running moves for a mon is unhealthy. Running a move to deal with a top tier threat is not unhealthy but an adaption to the meta game. Slowking galar running ice beam is fine. Ice beam was not run before but it is still a good move. It hits things like dragapult and dragonite super effective. Same with ice spinner on things like great tusk and lilligant hisuian from sun teams. These moves are not only good against 1 pokemon they are good against many the meta has just adpabted to running these moves so that it could pressure a top pokemon. This has happened before and has been fine before. Lilligant hisuian ran tera blast fire to predominantly deal with corviknight and amoonguus predlc. Landorous has run grassy knot to deal with dondozo. Slowking glar run grassy knot to deal with tusk and dozo. Dozo started running tera dragon and tera grass for ogerpon wellspring over things like tera fighting it was previously running for better gambit matchups. Kingambit causes you to run things like encore to deal with its sd suckpunch combo. These are all examples of adpatation to the meta game not unhealthy teambuilding constrictions. Gliscor isno different in this regard. It is not like BM Luna was where you had to run 1 pokemon that stopped it. Blissey was they only pokemon with a not awful bm luna matchcup and the only real wall to it. That is an example of an unhealthy team building constraint. There is another pokemon in the metagame, which I will not directly mention since this is not a suspect thread for it but for gliscor, that causes you to run 6 of a single item or 1 of 2 to deal with. That is an unhealthy team building constraint. Running a super effective move for a major mon in the metagame is not too much of a team building constraint but an adaptation of the metagame.

Overall I don't think this argument of gliscor being too much in team building is good. I understand where people are coming from when they make this argument but find that it is mostly meta game adaption > being a constraint.
 
What results of this is a metagame that is a nightmare to navigate, especially in teambuilding.
"If, tomorrow, I tell Smogon that, like, Balance will have to run 6x boots, or Iron Valiant will run Encore and Destiny Bond, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the meta". But when I say that one little old Cinderace will use Tera Blast Ice, well then everyone loses their minds!"

part-of-the-plan-joker.gif
 
When a defensive pokemon is actually enough to be suspected with most of the ou council agreeing that it should be banned, that means it has no chances of suriviving, gliscor will not be usable in ou, no defensive pokemon since mega sableye has reached these conditions, gliscor will be banned, and its ban will be too late for it to be unbanned in the second dlc, gliscor is will never be viable in a tier for the rest of the generation, and if gliscor is dexited, it will never be viable again
 
gliscor will be banned, and its ban will be too late for it to be unbanned in the second dlc, gliscor is will never be viable in a tier for the rest of the generation, and if gliscor is dexited, it will never be viable again
Well Gliscor technically is already viable in ubers, having more usage then landorus-therian, giratina, and mewtwo, so saying it "won't be viable in a tier for the rest of the generation" isn't necessarily true. Also UUbers (kinda) exists so even if its Uber usage drops there still will be people playing with it
 
Well Gliscor technically is already viable in ubers, having more usage then landorus-therian, giratina, and mewtwo, so saying it "won't be viable in a tier for the rest of the generation" isn't necessarily true. Also UUbers (kinda) exists so even if its Uber usage drops there still will be people playing with it
Landorus therian, giratina and mewtwo are horrible pokemon in ubers(gliscor literally outclasses landorus therian and nearly sent it to uu)so having usage than them is beyond expected, and the unoffical uubers tier is far too hostile for it, magearna and chi yu (which isn’t even that bad in ubers) are some of the top pokemon in the tier
 
Landorus therian, giratina and mewtwo are horrible pokemon in ubers, so having usage than them is beyond expected, and the unoffical uubers tier is far to hostile for it, magearna and chi yu (which isn’t even that bad in ubers) are some of the top pokemon in the tier
Not that this is the place to talk about it but Giratina-O is ranked B+ (same as Gliscor) and Mewtwo is B- so really not that bad compared to the others. Although the usage might be low, usage =/= viability.
 

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It is very possible that Gliscor, even if banned here, is brought back for DLC2 (either at the beginning or some point later) because that’ll be a significantly different metagame. The same goes for some other things, but not everything banned.

Gliscor’s Uber viability is also entirely irrelevant here. It is good there, but that has nothing to do with placement in OU. Not every Pokemon is entitled to a tier where it is very viable in.
When a defensive pokemon is actually enough to be suspected with most of the ou council agreeing that it should be banned, that means it has no chances of suriviving, gliscor will not be usable in ou, no defensive pokemon since mega sableye has reached these conditions, gliscor will be banned, and its ban will be too late for it to be unbanned in the second dlc, gliscor is will never be viable in a tier for the rest of the generation, and if gliscor is dexited, it will never be viable again
Basically this entire post is wrong.
 
It is very possible that Gliscor, even if banned here, is brought back for DLC2 (either at the beginning or some point later) because that’ll be a significantly different metagame. The same goes for some other things, but not everything banned.

Gliscor’s Uber viability is also entirely irrelevant here. It is good there, but that has nothing to do with placement in OU. Not every Pokemon is entitled to a tier where it is very viable in.

Basically this entire post is wrong.
I know my post is bullshit, but i wasn’t trying prove that gliscor shouldn’t be banned because it wouldn’t be viable anywhere else, i was actually in favour of a ban since hazard stack is unhealthy
 

Ehmcee

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Landorus therian, giratina and mewtwo are horrible pokemon in ubers(gliscor literally outclasses landorus therian and nearly sent it to uu)so having usage than them is beyond expected, and the unoffical uubers tier is far too hostile for it, magearna and chi yu (which isn’t even that bad in ubers) are some of the top pokemon in the tier
For your sake, stop talking about tiers you know nothing about. Saying that Lando-T, Giratina and Mewtwo are horrible in ubers is the most garbage level take I've ever seen on this site. It'd take you two seconds to figure out Lando-T and Giratina are extremely useful in the tier, and that Mewtwo has a well defined niche. Lando-T is also ranked higher and has higher usage due to having a better matchup into a ton of the powerful physical attackers in that tier.
 
For your sake, stop talking about tiers you know nothing about. Saying that Lando-T, Giratina and Mewtwo are horrible in ubers is the most garbage level take I've ever seen on this site. It'd take you two seconds to figure out Lando-T and Giratina are extremely useful in the tier, and that Mewtwo has a well defined niche. Lando-T is also ranked higher and has higher usage due to having a better matchup into a ton of the powerful physical attackers in that tier.
I know, i just said, i was originally trying to say gliscor was 100% getting banned but my lack of any form of critical thinking couldn’t help itself
 
To change of pace on the *engo callbacks;

I had a comment a while back about how much Gliscor has benefitted more from the fact that other mons have lost the kind of tools that Gliscor has kept on hand since gen V. It looks a break from Pokemon for Gen 8, and came back to a meta that suddenly has toxic and knock off being rare tools instead of super broad distribution. His current main set fundamentally is a gen V OU set with spikes over sr, and less cultivated evs. A lot of focus is on how it tosses spikes reliably, but reliable spikes hasn't exactly been a new issue in this generation of OU. What I focus more on is that Gliscor arrived to a generation where all it's competition for its niches have lost what made them competitive.

Knock Off distribution is more uncommon for non-dark types, and itemless or knock off resisted items are basically non-existent. Good knock off absorbers have been hard to find but fortunately one has showed up: Gliscor.

Toxic has a much lower distribution, Aromatherapy is gone, and heal bell is basically Blissey in terms of high viability mons. You could use a poison type, but Poison types don't wanna come in on Gliscor, especially poison types that can do something about it. So status absorbers, especially on toxic, are Clefable, Breloom... And Gliscor.

Healing moves got their pp nerfed, and distribution of roost was limited as well. So mons who used to have reliably long sustainability have it cut in half. Mons would want more healing options would need to rely on wishpassing, a recovery item + grassy terrain, or something like Regenerator or... poison heal. Like Gliscor (oh and Breloom who has a lot of some really neat stuff it's not a good meta for it)

Hence the examples of Gliscor vs Gliscor. Because of how lean the pickings are for Gliscor's niches in both offensive and defensive support, Gliscor is not only a very good option at providing progress multiple times in hazards, momentum, item removal, and inflicting toxic, but it's also very good at containing the opposition from making progress by ignoring spikes (with sr neutrality), absorbing knock off, absorbing status, and stopping momentum (in the case of volt switch). Multiple times, because of the sustain of poison heal.

As for anti-ban vs ban, the issue is two faced for me. Gliscor is obviously providing utility to the tier, both offensively and defensively. However, its unique defensive contributions just so happens to counter it's unique offensive contributions. Losing Gliscor doesn't just mean you lose an obnoxious spiker that that knock offs and toxics to it's hearts content multiple times over a fight. It's also losing role compression on a knock off absorber and status absorbers with solid sustain. Not all knock offs and status are from Gliscor after all, so losing that utility is going to still make things prickly. But no matter what, Gliscor is becoming centralizing, and it's having a role compression to such a degree that Gliscor is a reliable anti-Gliscor answer. Well, maybe not that reliable: it's fundementally a stalemate that just stops you from losing any strategic position or advantage as long as you sustain the stalemate.

That's not necessarily meaning it's broken, mind you. Its just that the meta is starved for the kind of combination of defensive utility that Gliscor provides. Knock Off + Toxic on the same Mon is so rare this generation and even more so with a form of recovery with it. It's weird that having that kind of role compression is broken simply because it's so rare now, so I am not comfortable ascribing that to brokenness. But on the other hand, It -is- centralizing, and undeniably so. And every other example I can think of in history of tiering... Also had strong suspect pressure! Does the meta want to deal with Gliscor's spikes + knock off + toxic shenanigans of nearly always ensuring progress when swapping in, as well as mitigating knock off and status? Or would it rather not put up with it at the cost of losing that defensive utility?

If Gliscor gets banned, I follow Finch's sentiment that's it's a byproduct of the meta around Gliscor, and not specifically because Gliscor is broke. A meta with more water and ice types, a meta with more knock off + toxic options on non-dark and poison mons, and a meta with more status and knock off absorbers, giving Gliscor competition, would take the most teeth. And on the other hand, if Gliscor avoids the ban this pass, it's because there are counter play dimensions growing versus Gliscor, and again, Gliscor does provide useful utility benefits for a team. It's a question of the trade off, and if it trades off of having Gliscor staying in the tier outweighs the trade offs of staying, then it's time to be banned. Until dlc2 comes out and (maybe) brings out something that can exploit Gliscor.
 
To change of pace on the *engo callbacks;

I had a comment a while back about how much Gliscor has benefitted more from the fact that other mons have lost the kind of tools that Gliscor has kept on hand since gen V. It looks a break from Pokemon for Gen 8, and came back to a meta that suddenly has toxic and knock off being rare tools instead of super broad distribution. His current main set fundamentally is a gen V OU set with spikes over sr, and less cultivated evs. A lot of focus is on how it tosses spikes reliably, but reliable spikes hasn't exactly been a new issue in this generation of OU. What I focus more on is that Gliscor arrived to a generation where all it's competition for its niches have lost what made them competitive.

Knock Off distribution is more uncommon for non-dark types, and itemless or knock off resisted items are basically non-existent. Good knock off absorbers have been hard to find but fortunately one has showed up: Gliscor.

Toxic has a much lower distribution, Aromatherapy is gone, and heal bell is basically Blissey in terms of high viability mons. You could use a poison type, but Poison types don't wanna come in on Gliscor, especially poison types that can do something about it. So status absorbers, especially on toxic, are Clefable, Breloom... And Gliscor.

Healing moves got their pp nerfed, and distribution of roost was limited as well. So mons who used to have reliably long sustainability have it cut in half. Mons would want more healing options would need to rely on wishpassing, a recovery item + grassy terrain, or something like Regenerator or... poison heal. Like Gliscor (oh and Breloom who has a lot of some really neat stuff it's not a good meta for it)

Hence the examples of Gliscor vs Gliscor. Because of how lean the pickings are for Gliscor's niches in both offensive and defensive support, Gliscor is not only a very good option at providing progress multiple times in hazards, momentum, item removal, and inflicting toxic, but it's also very good at containing the opposition from making progress by ignoring spikes (with sr neutrality), absorbing knock off, absorbing status, and stopping momentum (in the case of volt switch). Multiple times, because of the sustain of poison heal.

As for anti-ban vs ban, the issue is two faced for me. Gliscor is obviously providing utility to the tier, both offensively and defensively. However, its unique defensive contributions just so happens to counter it's unique offensive contributions. Losing Gliscor doesn't just mean you lose an obnoxious spiker that that knock offs and toxics to it's hearts content multiple times over a fight. It's also losing role compression on a knock off absorber and status absorbers with solid sustain. Not all knock offs and status are from Gliscor after all, so losing that utility is going to still make things prickly. But no matter what, Gliscor is becoming centralizing, and it's having a role compression to such a degree that Gliscor is a reliable anti-Gliscor answer. Well, maybe not that reliable: it's fundementally a stalemate that just stops you from losing any strategic position or advantage as long as you sustain the stalemate.

That's not necessarily meaning it's broken, mind you. Its just that the meta is starved for the kind of combination of defensive utility that Gliscor provides. Knock Off + Toxic on the same Mon is so rare this generation and even more so with a form of recovery with it. It's weird that having that kind of role compression is broken simply because it's so rare now, so I am not comfortable ascribing that to brokenness. But on the other hand, It -is- centralizing, and undeniably so. And every other example I can think of in history of tiering... Also had strong suspect pressure! Does the meta want to deal with Gliscor's spikes + knock off + toxic shenanigans of nearly always ensuring progress when swapping in, as well as mitigating knock off and status? Or would it rather not put up with it at the cost of losing that defensive utility?

If Gliscor gets banned, I follow Finch's sentiment that's it's a byproduct of the meta around Gliscor, and not specifically because Gliscor is broke. A meta with more water and ice types, a meta with more knock off + toxic options on non-dark and poison mons, and a meta with more status and knock off absorbers, giving Gliscor competition, would take the most teeth. And on the other hand, if Gliscor avoids the ban this pass, it's because there are counter play dimensions growing versus Gliscor, and again, Gliscor does provide useful utility benefits for a team. It's a question of the trade off, and if it trades off of having Gliscor staying in the tier outweighs the trade offs of staying, then it's time to be banned. Until dlc2 comes out and (maybe) brings out something that can exploit Gliscor.
This post reminds me a lot of an old Fighting Game boss a friend and I got into looking over recently, The General from an old Taito fighter Kaiser Knuckle, in that the boss is infamous for how ridiculously stacked against the player the fight is while still being technically winnable (90% of his stuff is safe into block, outranges you or comes out on Frame 1, and in general can be faster than your controller can read sometimes).

Yes, ways to defeat Gliscor exist, but this mon is playing with a moveset and toolkit that I can't even say feels accidental, but the result of someone deliberately trying to craft the most frustrating opponent you could possibly imagine. I compare it to the above in that you can literally play perfectly against a Gliscor in terms of your risk-assessment and optimal positioning for your team, but winning still depends on what the Gliscor player is doing since the stupid amount of role compression and asset combination it has that others don't means Gliscor is not simply a counter to several Pokemon, it's objectively better than they can even peak at. Winning against a Gliscor either requires you to play perfectly and the opposition imperfectly, or to play in such a way that is probably bad against 90% of other opponents (see how many suggestions and/or attempts are made to run Ice Types who otherwise have not displayed OU viability simply because they're safer specifically into Gliscor).

The General took 2 Decades to be recorded as beaten, so you can probably make your attempt at that record in the time 1 Gliscor Stalemate takes to resolve.
 

ausma

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Running a move to deal with a top tier threat is not unhealthy but an adaption to the meta game.
This rebuttal misses the point of my argument entirely. Move adaptations are completely fine and I am not suggesting that teambuilding being affected by that is a bad thing, especially when it has other useful applications. The reason why I made this argument at all is because of the nature of Tera Blast as an adaptation.

Tera Blast itself is a very volatile move that can sometimes be reliant on surprise factor (which is how it’s mainly used right now) but also can, often, unpredictably expand coverage profiles in a significant way. Unlike something like Hidden Power, it is far more potent on the surprise turn and also commits your use of Tera to that surprise in order to remove Gliscor and other adjacent threats. The fact that Gliscor encourages this move to be run more often leads to many more impractical situations to maneuver around with Pokemon that boast a similar weakness profile as Gliscor. That dynamic to me feels unreasonable to have to consistently consider, and Gliscor encourages it by encouraging higher use of the move.

Aside from that, my argument does not hinge on Tera Blast and I would prefer it not be reduced to that. The only reason I mentioned it at all was to emphasize how much of a restraint it puts upon progression to a point where it encourages the use of a move I see as uncompetitive.
 
What results of this is a metagame that is a nightmare to navigate, especially in teambuilding. Because the means of progress available to the tier are so easily negated by its presence, very strange options are forced to try and disrupt it; while this seems like a good thing on paper to encourage creative building, forcing suboptimal options is not ideal nor pallatable. However there is actually a very prominent move it forces higher usage of that creates absurd volatility in gameplay: Tera Blast. Laugh it up, but I'm dead serious. There have been several successful teams such as Storm Zone's Cinderace team and a surge in Sandy Shocks/Dragonite/opposing Landorus-T trying to take advantage of this move to delete Gliscor, that notably boast natural great benefits in pressuring similar Ground- and Flying-type targets. This causes the move to be used in practice more often to tech other Pokemon due to the move being on the set anyway; I cannot tell you how many times in my reqs run I've run into Water- and Ice-type Tera Blast even without a Gliscor on the team I used.
I think my main issue with tera blast ice is that Sandy Shocks loves to use tera blast ice anyways, even without Gliscor in the tier, as well as the fact that Dragonite gets ice spinner... I haven't seen tera blast ice Landorus-T yet, but I have seen tera blast ice Amoonguss.

The overall issue I have with this argument is that nobody is forcing these players to use tera blast ice. In the past, we have used stuff like tera blast fighting for Kingambit on stuff like assault vest Toxapex, specs Dragapult, Zapdos, and shell smash Polteageist. Now, it is reasonable to argue that Kingambit is broken in itself, but there are cases where mons use tera blast for non-broken mons, such as tera blast ground Iron Moth for Heatran and tera blast fire Breloom for Corviknight (and Gholdengo). There are other options, but these are just to name a few.

The point I want to make is that you really can run tera blast to just one shot whatever you want if you really wanted to, but you don't need to. There are other checks and counters to Gliscor, such as Hatterene, Corviknight, taunt, setup, and substitute, that do not require terastallization. It is fine to adapt and try to resolve a weakness with tera blast as a move, which is what a small amount of teams end up doing, but it is often because it is used in conjunction with a team that is incredibly powerful against other teams without the desired target in the picture.

Now, as to the other argument, as to that Gliscor has lots of tools at its disposal and can adapt to its counters:

However, it's the things it can do with its resilience into progress that push it to an egregious extent. Entering Generation 9 it obtained both Toxic Spikes and Spikes, and it's obviously excellent at using them. This is thanks to how well it can take advantage of passive gamestates that occur more frequently thanks to its resilience into status/Knock Off, but this doesn't give the full picture about why it deserves priority in evaluation over Gholdengo imo. Aside from its ability to efficiently stack hazards, we have seen a truly obscene amount of set permutations that take advantage of its access to Swords Dance, Knock Off, Toxic, U-turn, and Taunt in order to diversify its style of pressure and punish attempts to respond to it, including mirrors. While hazards can complement these tools, Gliscor is able to use these tools independently to create progress or take advantage of the gamestates it can force, all while being able to seamlessly adapt to conventional means of counterplay.
Ignoring the fact that options like toxic spikes and taunt are underused, I can see these moves rising in usage to deal with opposing Gliscor and Corviknight.

There are even cases where one might argue that Magnezone could also be used if Corviknight rises in usage as a way to touch on the idea of adaptation, but we'll get to that at a later point.

Let's say I am building a team with Gliscor, and let's say I want this to be a hazard setter. I would lock in protect and spikes, and then I have the options of toxic, earthquake, and knock off. Each have their own benefits, and this already does cause a problem for the Gliscor player in what moves to choose. Do I choose toxic in order to punish Great Tusk? Do I choose knock off to force progress? Do I choose earthquake for consistent damage?

Now, let's add the other move in question: taunt (Yes, toxic spikes exists, but I want to touch on that in a later argument).

Here, the situation is made even more extreme with taunt in the picture. If I pick toxic and taunt, options like poison types and Hatterene can switch in freely, Hatterene even switching in with zero repercussions. If I pick taunt and knock off, I can get spun on by Great Tusk easily, and Hatterene can still choose to switch in despite losing its item and argue that long term, the damage is minimal and is healable with draining kiss (or can use Gliscor as an entry point for a setup). Lastly, taunt and earthquake is an option, and it still struggles against Great Tusk and Hatterene, the latter of which even gets to keep the leftovers.

In addition to the argument of taunt not being able to get through all hazard removal (and especially not Hatterene), there are still, again, the checks that I mentioned earlier in taunt, substitute, and setup.

I didn't even mention the consequences of relying on taunt; let's say I have 2 defoggers in Corviknight and Mandibuzz/Weezing-Galar/Scizor/Talonflame. In the case of Corviknight + Mandibuzz or Talonflame, Gliscor specifically needs taunt + toxic. In the case of Corviknight and Scizor or neutralizing gas Weezing-Galar, Gliscor specifically needs taunt and earthquake or taunt + knock off. Lastly, in the case of Corviknight and levitate Weezing-Galar, the worst Gliscor can do is remove items. Let's say it removes boots in this scenario, for example; Gliscor still wouldn't be able to force progress because both of these defoggers because they bypass spikes.

Now, I know team structures like balance and offense cannot rely on multiple defoggers, but these teams can still run Great Tusk + Hatterene (an anti-hazard core that historically has been pretty solid in OU), pivots carrying taunt, setup sweepers with pivot support, or, in the case of balance, boots spam (Let's be real, balance used boots spam during the HOME meta as well, it's not like Gliscor restrictively manipulates teambuilding by forcing all the boots on).

Alright, let's go back to Magnezone, because I think this could be an option that people could argue:

By running Magnezone, Gliscor is pretty much obligated to run knock off in order to remove potential shed shells. I think it's safe to make that assumption, because otherwise, it would need to run taunt to beat shed shell Corviknight and, well, we go full circle (also, why would you even bother running a Magnezone in that case?).

Now, this means that Gliscor does not need to run taunt, but the scenario still applies; do you choose to lose to Great Tusk and certain knock absorbers without toxic, or do you yield your rights to punishing Hatterene (and niche options like neutralizing gas Weezing-Galar) without earthquake? This is, despite losing your option of Corviknight, still a lot more predictable and easy to manage because the opposing Gliscor has to use 3 moves; protect, knock off, and spikes.

Okay, it's time for the toxic spikes argument:

Toxic spikes play out INCREDIBLY similar to spikes, except that if the opponent is toxic + toxic spikes, you cannot use Great Tusk oh wait, it's the same as if it was using toxic + spikes in the first place. You don't even need to use a poison type to absorb it, except now you could throw in a couple predictions with your poison type if you REALLY wanted to.

Now, it is time to address the elephant in the room (tera ghost):

In a previous post, I mentioned that Ting-Lu could do something similar and emulate hazard stack with tera ghost, and I'm willing to acknowledge that Gliscor can do the same. However, the main difference with this is that if Gliscor terastallizes ghost, you have even MORE options to punish it, such as with your own hazards to match (or even outdamage) the healing of poison heal + protect.

Furthermore, I want to talk about the fact that different team structures do well into Gliscor anyways. Take magic guard Clefable + hazard resilient options (whether it be heavy duty boots or non-grounded mons that don't care about rocks that much), and you get a solid team structure in general to deal with Gliscor. Take grass spam teams, where the sheer power can break through the hazard stacking core and the grassy terrain allows the teammates to regain some of the HP they lose from hazards (hazards in general are less impactful against offensive teams; the games are faster paced and therefore, hazards don't get as many opportunities to deal the chip damage). These are just some examples that can deal with Gliscor decently.

Lastly, I wanted to talk about some of the positive impacts that Gliscor can do on the tier, even if others argue that it has some bad impacts.

For bulkier offense teams, a pivot set could be used to essentially get a bulky pivot that is a lot more reusable than other options such as Landorus-T. This could be bringing in powerful attackers over and over again, which I think is a really nice dynamic.

For more balanced teams, it can serve as a hazard resilient knock absorber, allowing for Gliscor to help balance teams to deal with menacing physical knockers such as Great Tusk, physical Iron Valiant, some variants of Rillaboom (or all choice band variants if you scout it with another protect mon), and more fringe, unique options such as Meowscarada, Ogerpon-Cornerstone, Ogerpon (base), and Scizor.

For teams closer to semi-stall and stall, Gliscor can serve as either a bulky win condition or as a way to force some progress with knock off and toxic (which I think can be a healthy thing).

Lastly, Gliscor does serve as, finally, another option to deal with volt switchers such as Zapdos. There have been relatively few options for dealing with Zapdos in the HOME metagame, and Gliscor is an option that is quite splashable; Clodsire was hard to fit on most teams and Ting-Lu could eventually get worn down depending on your set.
 
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There are other checks and counters to Gliscor, such as Hatterene, Corviknight, taunt, setup, and substitute, that do not require terastallization.
Stuff like taunt and substitute are very specialized cases and can't just be thrown onto something silly nilly, so it usually comes at a cost of another move. What mon is fitting taunt for gliscor these days? Substitute meanwhile requires avoiding toxic on the way in and being faster. How many mons relevantly use sub and are faster? Iron Moth and Zama come to mind but the former needs tera grass vs gliscor and is blanked by Heatran as a result while the latter still has to watch for toxic and realistically can't do much to Gliscor with sub sets anyways.

Hatterene is a fine check, but has middling bulk and longevity meaning it gets worn down too fast and isn't a long term answer. Corv answers Gliscor in terms of utility, but does absolutely nothing back to it and the teams Gliscor fits on can simply play the long game.

I didn't even mention the consequences of relying on taunt; let's say I have 2 defoggers in Corviknight and Mandibuzz/Weezing-Galar/Scizor/Talonflame. In the case of Corviknight + Mandibuzz or Talonflame, Gliscor specifically needs taunt + toxic. In the case of Corviknight and Scizor or neutralizing gas Weezing-Galar, Gliscor specifically needs taunt and earthquake or taunt + knock off. Lastly, in the case of Corviknight and levitate Weezing-Galar, the worst Gliscor can do is remove items. Let's say it removes boots in this scenario, for example; Gliscor still wouldn't be able to force progress because both of these defoggers because they bypass spikes.
You're not running double defog cores in this metagame flat out. There aren't enough viable defoggers to do so reliably. Mandibuzz is a poor defogger in general for reasons beyond Gholdengo, and is better off being a wall. Talonflame has all but fallen completely out and is extremely fringe, while weezing has highly exploitable flaws which makes it similarly fringe.

So realistically these scenarios you described aren't really relevant because they're not something people are using or are able to use reliably. Not consistent.

but these teams can still run Great Tusk + Hatterene (an anti-hazard core that historically has been pretty solid in OU), pivots carrying taunt, setup sweepers with pivot support, or, in the case of balance, boots spam (Let's be real, balance used boots spam during the HOME meta as well, it's not like Gliscor restrictively manipulates teambuilding by forcing all the boots on).
If it was as simple as Tusk and hatt duos, you maybe wouldn't have as big an issue but it's not that easy. I talked about why taunt isn't something you can slap on freely due to the specialized nature of the move, set up sweepers are toxic bait.

Furthermore, I want to talk about the fact that different team structures do well into Gliscor anyways. Take magic guard Clefable + hazard resilient options (whether it be heavy duty boots or non-grounded mons that don't care about rocks that much), and you get a solid team structure in general to deal with Gliscor.
There's a reason this style is common and gliscor is a huge contributor to why. And clef features alongside gliscor anyways. People are not huge fans of having to play mirror matches because there aren't many other ways to stomach the hazards. It leads to an unbalanced and potentially stale metagame. This, in my opinion, is the biggest sign of a problem as the way these teams suffocate removal and force hazard and passive damage so well warps the meta and building around it.
 
Stuff like taunt and substitute are very specialized cases and can't just be thrown onto something silly nilly, so it usually comes at a cost of another move. What mon is fitting taunt for gliscor these days? Substitute meanwhile requires avoiding toxic on the way in and being faster. How many mons relevantly use sub and are faster? Iron Moth and Zama come to mind but the former needs tera grass vs gliscor and is blanked by Heatran as a result while the latter still has to watch for toxic and realistically can't do much to Gliscor with sub sets anyways.

Hatterene is a fine check, but has middling bulk and longevity meaning it gets worn down too fast and isn't a long term answer. Corv answers Gliscor in terms of utility, but does absolutely nothing back to it and the teams Gliscor fits on can simply play the long game.
I said these mons were checks, not counters; you need to get them in with a pivot, and mons like Waterpon do commonly fit moves like taunt and substitute. These aren't just specialized cases; they're actually good moves. For example, Enamorus runs substitute and Ogerpon-Cornerstone, Ogerpon-Wellspring, and some other taunt options like Samurott-Hisui exist as well. Hell, I've even found success with taunt Landorus-T; taunt is a move Landorus-T loves to run anyways! There are a lot more mons that are probably fine with taunt, but we will see more taunt sets if the metagame develops with Gliscor, maybe with Cinderace or something like that. Also, Hatterene does actually do well against Gliscor long-term unless it has knock off AND earthquake, but that gets shut down by Great Tusk, more on that later. Also, Hatterene's bulk isn't the greatest, but it really isn't that bad if you invest into it, especially stacked up against Gliscor's 95 base attack stat. In fact, if you invest into Gliscor's equally middling attack stat, you just get draining kissed harder and you become overall more frail.

You're not running double defog cores in this metagame flat out. There aren't enough viable defoggers to do so reliably. Mandibuzz is a poor defogger in general for reasons beyond Gholdengo, and is better off being a wall. Talonflame has all but fallen completely out and is extremely fringe, while weezing has highly exploitable flaws which makes it similarly fringe.
I never said people run double defog cores actively, it's just that it is a possibility. If people can build around it (which, I can imagine Weezing-Galar with neutralizing gas probably could), there's another option for dealing with it. You're probably more likely to run Corviknight + Great Tusk, but it's pretty similar; you need taunt toxic to actually get hazards up against that, and Hatterene hard counters it.

Also, you said that nobody is running double defog cores in this metagame flat out, but nobody is running taunt either...? Both of these arguments refer to IF the metagame develops later down the line, and honestly Corviknight + Weezing-Galar cores don't even sound that bad; Weezing-Galar even defogs through Gholdengo, which is nice.

The defog scenario wasn't meant to be relevant to nowadays, just if people start using taunt Gliscor (which, going through my post again, you can see why I explained that taunt isn't problematic on Gliscor and why it probably would not see usage).

If it was as simple as Tusk and hatt duos, you maybe wouldn't have as big an issue but it's not that easy. I talked about why taunt isn't something you can slap on freely due to the specialized nature of the move, set up sweepers are toxic bait.
Great Tusk and Hatterene is a pretty decent core as it stands actually, and this is solely off of the question if you just want to remove the spikes entirely because you hate hazards. There are different alternatives to this option.

There's a reason this style is common and gliscor is a huge contributor to why. And clef features alongside gliscor anyways. People are not huge fans of having to play mirror matches because there aren't many other ways to stomach the hazards. It leads to an unbalanced and potentially stale metagame. This, in my opinion, is the biggest sign of a problem as the way these teams suffocate removal and force hazard and passive damage so well warps the meta and building around it.
These are just example teams, and no, the meta isn't JUST Gliscor + Clefable hazard stack. There's tons of offense still such as webs, grass spam, and standard hyper offenses (which matches well into Gliscor). You could, again, use Hatterene, and keep in mind, there are teams that still have success without Gliscor, such as Pinkacross's Alomomola balance team.

Also, if you say that there aren't many ways to stomach the hazards, this is pretty similar to what happened pre-DLC during the HOME meta, where incredibly strong teams started stacking boots and hazards with pivots and had great success. Nowadays, Gliscor just happens to be the most splashable and flexible spiker, and if your argument is that there aren't many ways to stomach the hazards, banning Gliscor doesn't change that. In fact, Gliscor itself is a "way to stomach the hazards," so if you argue down that path, an important thing to realize is that spikes stacking truly is always going to be present, and Gliscor is both good at setting the spikes AND being counterplay to them. Yes, this leads to Gliscor vs Gliscor situations, but I can argue that I would rather have Gliscor vs Gliscor interactions than just watch my opponent go Ting-Lu, set up hazards, go Gh*ldengo or tera ghost to block the removal, then go to their double pivot in the back and just spam pivot until my entire team is chipped. One is merely a dragged out match that still gives me a fighting chance, while the other can feel oppressive and helpless at times. By the way, I'm not saying every team should use Gliscor, just that Gliscor is an OPTION against hazard stack as well.
 
I firmly disagree with the ban, although gliscor is consirderably strong he is not ban worthy and his ban will result in serious metagame shifts adding mor epokemore to the massive list of uber bans, while gliscor is good he isnt overpowered and counterplay is easy to add to a team.
 

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I firmly disagree with the ban, although gliscor is consirderably strong he is not ban worthy and his ban will result in serious metagame shifts adding mor epokemore to the massive list of uber bans, while gliscor is good he isnt overpowered and counterplay is easy to add to a team.
Please give more reasoning than just "there will be a lot of bans". Expand on counterplay and why Gliscor is manageable.

Sometimes I think I should switch sides because of a lot of the anti ban posts..
 
his ban will result in serious metagame shifts adding mor epokemore to the massive list of uber bans, while gliscor is good he isnt overpowered and counterplay is easy to add to a team.
Two points on this:

1. Currently, much of the player base is unhappy with the state of the OU meta, so a serious metagame shift is not unwelcome. The main point of debate right now is over the cause of metagame issues (Is the problem Gliscor, Gholdengo, Kingambit, tera, or something else?). I don't see many people argueing that this is the ideal state for the OU meta.

2. Not wanting to ban a pokemon due to the number of pokemon already in Ubers is a terrible arguement. There are tons of bans this gen, because powercreep was crazy. Almost every banned mon has been banned for a good reason. Really the only controversial ban right now is volcarona (due to the way it was banned). We almost certanly will ban more pokemon this generation, so currently it is just a question of if gliscor should be one of the banned mons or not.
 
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