Gliscor's spikes set is not passive because Toxic / EQ is covering like 95% of the metagame, especially it can have Knock Off to remove HDB if it want to. We have a very few pokemon that can switch on standard Gliscor comfortably is Gliscor (it's the best counter we have), Clefable and Corviknight. That's it. It's difficult to switch on Gliscor regardless it has 95 attack base.
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 8 - Toxic [ Tiering Note Post #2 ]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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Spikes Gliscor can't do anything to hatt, sub cm enam, sub zama, and also a few more niche things like amoonguss and levitate gweezing. So your "gliscor, clef, and corv. that's it." is not actually correct. Gliscor is strong but it does have more than a few counters. Also, I just realized every single flying type that runs sub can beat gliscor 1v1. There are checks that I'm too lazy to mention but Gliscor beats more like 70% of the meta, which is a lot sure, but not that crazy. Most walls should be able to wall 50-60% of the meta, there's a reason why no one uses drifblim or bronzing, it's because they can wall 10-20% of the meta at best (don't quote me on this, it's just an estimate).
Most Sub Fliers don't want directly switch in though because Toxic completely cripples them. Zama and Enam win the 1v1 with Sub, but have issues getting in safely. This is why U-Turn Corvi is so good, as it can safely bring in these threats with its slow U-Turn and let them easily cook Gliscor.
Players don't use Bronzong because the playerbase has taken away its niche. They took away Bax, they took away Bloodmoon, and soon they will take away Gliscor. The playerbase is determined to make Bronzong suffer in the metagame, and I will join them in that goal.
I never said Gliscor countering Gliscor was unhealthy, I said that Gliscor counters OTHER knockers and that other Gliscors can be countered in a different way.
Defog Corviknight is... still quite used??? 44% is still massive. I'm sorry, this argument makes zero sense to me. Let me make a similar argument using this format just to show how absurd it is:
Right here is the moveset percentages of Gliscor. I cut out protect because it couldn't fit on my screenshot and, well, pretty much every serious Gliscor runs protect (96% usage if you want to be accurate). By using the move usage rate argument, you don't even need to worry about knock off Gliscor and swords dance sets. Obviously, that is an incredibly misinformed argument to make that no Gliscors run knock off, but I hope you get the point that I am trying to say. Also, you don't need to immediately pressure anything to be a counter. I can counter Slowking-Galar's future sight with something carrying protect, despite me not being able to kill Slowking-Galar. Also, for the taunt argument, you can still get free switches into them with pivot; it's called a check. Also, many mons can fit substitute, including Ogerpon-Wellspring, Landorus-T, Enamorus, hex Dragapult depending on the set, Zamazenta, etc. Also, did you just completely gloss over Hatterene?
Also, you're definitely trolling by saying "just use Garchomp."
And I'm saying banning Gliscor won't solve anything of importance; nothing will change. Also, that has got to be the worst analogy of all time, I'm sorry. What? Also, yes, there IS a way to solve things with as few bans as possible. Isn't that what we want in a metagame; try to keep as much things viable? Unless you want to ban every spiker in the tier, feel free to say this on your "nail of beds."
"Wow, I'm lying on a bed of nails, I should make this less painful by brushing away the nails that aren't even under me."
I said 'comfortably' so they all can't switch on Gliscor comfortably. Hatterene can't switch on EQ / Knock Off, sub CM enam can't switch on Toxic and sub zama can't switch on Toxic. Amoonguss is a free Spikes for Gliscor and can't do anything back. Weezing-G is C rank on viability ranking but Gliscor can stay on Weezing-G if it want to.
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 81-96 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 52-62 (16.3 - 19.4%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 88-105 (25 - 29.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal (20.7 - 24.8% recovered)
Ok, if you say so...
Also I specifically said amoonguss and gweezing are niche, I didn't say they're very good.
Great, Hatt loses its item and takes chip damage, while Gliscor probably gains health and then switches out. Hatt accomplishes nothing and loses in the long run. That's a very poor argument for a "counter".
but you can pressure gliscor and heal off the damage with draining kiss and potentially set up
if you genuinely believe that nothing will change, why are you here in this thread arguing not to ban it? clearly you think something will change or else you wouldn't care one way or the other. why are you wasting your time here?
just because you don't understand it doesn't make it bad or inaccurate
do you understand how many things gliscor is invalidating on its own? it's steadily pushing every other spikes user out of the tier because of how fucking good it is at being one. "keeping as much things viable" would require a ban of gliscor
if you actually don't think gliscor is a problem after all the arguments presented in this thread, i don't think i can do anything to change your mind. at this point you're just ignoring the truth on purpose and the best i can do is discourage you from throwing your time away trying to get reqs so you can at least save yourself the embarrassment of forever being known as a gliscor apologist, like how bludgeoning angel has to forever carry the shame of being one of the five people who voted dnb on bloodmoon. the damn thing got a 3.99 on the survey among qualified voters, we all know where this suspect is headed
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Hat on its own isn't good vs Gliscor, yeah. With G-Terrain or Veil support though, it is extremely good vs Gliscor. You can easily setup a ton of free Calm Minds on the Scor which is put in a precarious position. As long as Hat is alive, setting up Spikes also becomes a risk, which is also valuable. It definitely loses in the long run otherwise though, especially as its immediate damage output vs Scor isn't high enough.
no hazard control on its own is good against gliscor, not really. cinderace only works once, hatterene can't outdamage it, tusk gets tera'd on, defog corv walls it but also gets walled, glimm dies to eq, maushold gets toxic'd, and everything else is either uncommon, unviable, or both. some of them can technically 1v1 gliscor if the gliscor doesn't play perfectly, but it's typically such a bitch of a process that they'd mostly rather switch out
Alright, I don't know what got into your head while making this, but let me just say something about pretty much your entire post.
Because that's what a suspect thread is for???
Uh, no, I get the analogy, it just sucks in the context because you're trying to equivocate the ban of Gliscor to "getting off the nail of beds" while I am arguing that it really isn't.
Probably one of the only meaningful things coming out of this post, but Samurott-H, Ting-Lu, Glimmora, Greninja, etc. are still plenty viable, it's just that now there is a contender for spikes. As the sample size of spikers increases overall, all the other spikers are bound to get less usage; that's just basic math. Let's say I had 1 viable hazard setter and 1 more hazard setter of equal viability gets added, I can expect that the other hazard setter's usage reduces by half. This isn't a bad thing, it isn't hurting its viability, but it IS adding to the variety of options. Ting-Lu is still good for sure, it isn't totally outclassed by any means, for the record.
I gave you my arguments, but you neglect them without even actually bothering to disprove any of my arguments other than a weird analogy. Also, there is literally nothing wrong with being in the minority of the argument. In fact, let me show you something that should change your attitude:
Yes, this is OU chat we are talking about, but the point is that I'm really not in the boat of "5 people voting do not ban" and there are still plenty of people good enough to get reqs in there. Nobody is going to flame/shame me for my do not ban decision aside from you. In fact, nobody even cares that Bludgeoning Angel voted do not ban on Ursaluna Bloodmoon. Who actively documents and remembers what random people vote on suspect tests? I guarantee that you are pretty much the only person that "forever knows" Bludgeoning Angel as a "Bloodmoon apologist." Please, if this is something that you actively do by shaming people for what they vote despite their arguments, get your own reqs? Actually argue against their arguments instead of shaming other people? And for the record, I have a week to get reqs; I've done reqs in 2 hours and 3 hours before, so I'll do it again. I even have a head start and effectively just need 10 wins, so that'll cut out a ton of time. I encourage you to do the same and get reqs, as what really matters is you getting reqs and not just trying to shoo away the do not ban arguments. Also, what do you mean ignoring "the truth?" You're the one that straight up doesn't even care about any of the arguments I provide really, because if you did, you would see that I actually do take common ideas into mind when sharing why I am voting do not ban.
By the way, I am not intending to have a full-blown argument or shame anyone, but please just stick to Gliscor and actually consider all the do not ban arguments properly if you want to make a solid case. Also, before you say that you actually do read my posts and consider them properly, let's check this out:
You didn't even bother to read on at this point. If you had read on, you would have realized that I didn't even really talk about Gholdengo to begin with.
I respect the ban arguments, I really do. I respect what people like Srn and Finchinator have to say, but I also trust people like Highv0ltag3. I trust people like SupaGmoney; they know their stuff and are voting do not ban on Gliscor. And, more importantly, I think I have played enough high ladder games to get a good grasp of the metagame with Gliscor. I have played teams that both use Gliscor and do not use Gliscor. This is WHY I am arguing that Gliscor should not be banned.
Unironically trying to use OU chat room polls as part of your argument, never change OU subforum, never change. Should also go ask Freezai's, FSG's, and Pokeaim's youtube comments while you're at it lol
yes, yes, you're joining the discussion, all are welcome, freeze peach and whatnot. but why bother doing that if you think that the ban will change "nothing" or "next to nothing"? logically, if it changes nothing, then it doesn't matter whether gliscor gets banned or not. so why even have an opinion on it? why try to convince anyone instead of saying "it doesn't matter, whatever happens happens"?
If you looked at the context of my argument, it was to just show that I wasn't in the vast "minority." I don't care if they have the right opinion, it's just in that context the original person was saying that I would be singled out for saying do not ban on Gliscor.
Heyo I've been thinking about whether to ban or DNB on gliscor after getting reqs and I think I'm leaning more towards Ban rather than DNB.
And I want to highlight a couple of things about gliscorand not ghold bc i do think ghold is the fundamental problem but this is a gliscor suspect LMAO :)
1. progress making
2. team building restrictions
3. the shape up for the tier
1. Progress making
Progress making is hyper braindead when it comes to gliscor. the standard spikes + toxic gliscor is batshit insane when it comes to making progress when it's equipped with pokemon with knock off. As a matter of fact i’ve been spamming the daylights out of gliscor + KO, rocks clef. just with these 2 mons just spamming their NO DRAWBACK MOVES can make insane amounts of progress.
(I’m supposed to have replays here but i didn’t rlly save any from my alt LMAO. But if u don’t believe that gliscor + KO clef doesn’t make progress just try it yourself.)
Another aspect of progress making with gliscor is that the bastard NEVER dies. this thing isn’t like ting-lu or samu-H. those 2 barely have the luxury to set up max hazards once or 2 a game. But gliscor? nah this thing can set max hazards 3-4 times a game to slowly but surely suffocate the checks and counters to its teammates. which can result in a very simple flowchart for one to follow if one is able to make progress on teams with this much ease.
2. Teambuilding
team building is miserable in this meta game. and this seems to be a common sentiment around the player base whether that be the higher-level tournament players the regular ladder players.
But WHY? well it all comes back to spikes and the difficulties of removing spikes. quite simply it’s HARD to consistently get rid of hazards within MOST structures + most pokemon because more than half of them can’t get the job done on gliscor and its best parter in crime ghold. and even if you do get rid of those spikes then gliscor comes BACK AND SPIKES AGAIN AND AGAIN.
so now you need a choice between running a less optimal team that can “consistently” remove hazards OR using a team that doesn’t care about spikes as much as others.
this in general leads to
1. HO teams
2. superman teams (stall, semi stall and some balance)
3. or balance teams with ace tusk (this can have some niche defogger that can fog on hold as well)
3. Metagame shape up
With that being said, I think this HO-focused metagame partially exists because of how dominant spikes are. with hazard removal being miserable and teams crumbling left and right beside a select few structures. (and yes the few structures are few and far between). So I believe that people just forgo hazard control to a certain extent and try to end games within 25 turns.
Like yes we've had some broken mons running around for a while. But there's no reason for the meta to be THIS oriented around HO where you fight HO once every 2-3 battles on the ladder. But gliscor puts the metagame in a state where the viable pool of pokemon are far too limited to consistently build various structures around different concepts.
And having a metagame that features HO to this extent is a sign of an unhealthy meta IMO.
Which is why I'm leaning towards Ban. But there are plenty of flaws within the pokemon and you can probably read posts that support DNB. However, I just wanted to give my 2 cents about the mon. :)
And I want to highlight a couple of things about gliscor
1. progress making
2. team building restrictions
3. the shape up for the tier
1. Progress making
Progress making is hyper braindead when it comes to gliscor. the standard spikes + toxic gliscor is batshit insane when it comes to making progress when it's equipped with pokemon with knock off. As a matter of fact i’ve been spamming the daylights out of gliscor + KO, rocks clef. just with these 2 mons just spamming their NO DRAWBACK MOVES can make insane amounts of progress.
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Protect
- Spikes
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Protect
- Spikes
(I’m supposed to have replays here but i didn’t rlly save any from my alt LMAO. But if u don’t believe that gliscor + KO clef doesn’t make progress just try it yourself.)
Another aspect of progress making with gliscor is that the bastard NEVER dies. this thing isn’t like ting-lu or samu-H. those 2 barely have the luxury to set up max hazards once or 2 a game. But gliscor? nah this thing can set max hazards 3-4 times a game to slowly but surely suffocate the checks and counters to its teammates. which can result in a very simple flowchart for one to follow if one is able to make progress on teams with this much ease.
2. Teambuilding
team building is miserable in this meta game. and this seems to be a common sentiment around the player base whether that be the higher-level tournament players the regular ladder players.
But WHY? well it all comes back to spikes and the difficulties of removing spikes. quite simply it’s HARD to consistently get rid of hazards within MOST structures + most pokemon because more than half of them can’t get the job done on gliscor and its best parter in crime ghold. and even if you do get rid of those spikes then gliscor comes BACK AND SPIKES AGAIN AND AGAIN.
so now you need a choice between running a less optimal team that can “consistently” remove hazards OR using a team that doesn’t care about spikes as much as others.
this in general leads to
1. HO teams
2. superman teams (stall, semi stall and some balance)
3. or balance teams with ace tusk (this can have some niche defogger that can fog on hold as well)
3. Metagame shape up
With that being said, I think this HO-focused metagame partially exists because of how dominant spikes are. with hazard removal being miserable and teams crumbling left and right beside a select few structures. (and yes the few structures are few and far between). So I believe that people just forgo hazard control to a certain extent and try to end games within 25 turns.
Like yes we've had some broken mons running around for a while. But there's no reason for the meta to be THIS oriented around HO where you fight HO once every 2-3 battles on the ladder. But gliscor puts the metagame in a state where the viable pool of pokemon are far too limited to consistently build various structures around different concepts.
And having a metagame that features HO to this extent is a sign of an unhealthy meta IMO.
Which is why I'm leaning towards Ban. But there are plenty of flaws within the pokemon and you can probably read posts that support DNB. However, I just wanted to give my 2 cents about the mon. :)
Okay? It's still super funny to go "Look look, a lot of mostly uninformed and bad players agree with me" as an argument technique and have it take up like, half your damn post lol
Why does it matter if Lillipup gets banned from OU? Mew? Charizard? It doesn't matter if any of them get banned because nobody uses those mons, but why would you?
And I'm aware about the fact that these mons aren't hated in the slightest, but if you looked at my arguments, I mentioned that Gliscor has qualities that are pretty nice and healthy for a team while the "bad qualities" are negotiable. I am not totally neutral/indifferent to Gliscor, far from it. I'm just trying to say why the downsides aren't as bad as people make it out to be. Ultimately, that's what the do not ban vs ban arguments should come down to; if the bad outweigh the good or vice versa.
It took up literally 1 image and a sentence.
That is pretty much all I addressed about the image.
Besides, I think you're missing the point as to what the original person was saying; he was trying to say that everyone disagrees with me and that I would be singled out for supporting Gliscor in the tier. My point was not to say that OU chat determines if Gliscor gets banned. All I used was a general community standpoint and nothing else. I JUST needed to show that numerically, I am not in a 1% camp that people would single me out for. In fact, most of my argument was... not about OU chat? I included other qualified players' opinions as well as why I, myself, have a good enough grasp of the metagame to make my own decision when it comes to the ban. If I have to prove that, I am willing to.
This may come across as nitpicky, because more fully addressing you using OU Room chat is beneath me so this is the only point I have left, but everything I've seen and read about this metagame has pointed at other Spike setters' usage dropping dramatically, far more than you're implying or a simple increase in options would affect. I think someone said both Hammurot's and Ting Lu's usage dropped by double-digit percent, seeing a Pokemon one fewer time (or more) in ten games is a lot.
I just wanna say, referencing players like Highv0ltag3 and SupaGmoney as points of authority is kinda moot when they're both known to be big stall players.
Gliscor is a huge enabler of that team color, so a level of bias should definitely be considered when viewing their perspectives.
You could probably apply this the other way too, I suppose.
I probably should have mentioned that the example was just to show that all of the mons are still plenty viable, not necessarily that they would have an equal or non-massive usage change, that's on me. Good catch. Also, I've pulled up the usage stats and Ting-Lu dropped by 5% and Samurott-Hisui dropped by 15%. Honestly, what you heard is not far off, but I do have hope for Samurott-Hisui; its usage is still respectable at 9% and it sets itself apart drastically from the other spikes setters.
Yeah, Gliscor does support stall quite a bit, but it does also give stall some hell matchups as well. I think it is a net bias towards keeping Gliscor, but there are definitely some great arguments in keeping Gliscor by going down this path, such as Gliscor being able to knock absorb well and function as protection against hazard stack, which I personally really like. The hazard stack part? Not so good. However, I like the knock absorption part that much as well as the fact that banning it for the sole reason of hazards would just make people use more Ting-Lu, Samurott-H, etc. for hazards instead.
This is also another thing I should of clarified, thanks.
yeah but none of those pokemon manage to be as consistent at getting up and keeping hazards on the field as gliscor is, with or without gholdengo. the others can at least be worn down and/or taken advantage of much more easily and they all actually rely on having gholdengo keep their hazards on the field, meanwhile trying to exploit gliscor is a very tall task especially if you lack prior knowledge on what its running. you also have to position yourself very carefully to get a safe switchin, lest you end up eating an EQ, knock off, toxic, etc. on the switch. not to mention its bulk and longevity means it can easily set spikes over and over again over the course of a game no matter how much its forced out or how much its hazards are cleared, something no other hazard setter can do
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