Approved by galbia, WhiteDMist and Magnemite
THE PU "WHAT IF..." THREAD
This project aims to realize, how the metagames could be impacted in the case that one particular threat got onto the metagame from a Higher tier or got booted from the tier thanks to a higher usage or a ban.
We have been seeing some changes, especially in lower tiers that usually get shuffled every tier shift thanks to its threats moving along the tiering system, and changing the metagame kinda drastically, thanks to an increased viability on pokés that were simply unviable thanks to those threats or just a lower viability on others because they have one less threat to wall or defeat.
Each week I will choose a PU Pokemon. You will have a Week (7 days) to come up with answers for some questions that would be part of the bigger "WHAT IF". An example of that would be:
What would change if Poliwrath got booted from PU thanks to a ban or NU usage?
Sub Questions:
When trying to answer these questions you should try to think on the whole things that involves that Pokemon in the actual meta, to give a diverse preview of some possible changes in the future.
Our Current Question is:
The not so hot part of Gorebyss is that while it does have a nice option on Psychic or the possibility of dealing enough damage to some threats with a Super Effective Hidden Power Electric/Grass, it doesn't have the priority that Huntail can use on Sucker Punch, to deal with some faster threats as Scarfchu or Scarfmime...
However, I'm pretty sure that if Gorebyss drops, it would be a force to reckon with! :3
Actual Sub Questions:
Actual Sub Questions:
For the sake of perhaps a new conversation (don't kill me for this, however, bad it may be) I kind of want to mention both Ivysaur and Gloom. I remember somebody mentioning them before on the forum and they were unceremoniously dumped because Roselia was just better. But if Roselia were to leave they might have a chance to shine. They have the same Special Bulk (actually more due to 10 more HP) and same typing, meaning a resist to Fighting-Type moves, they also both have Sleep Powder, and better physical bulk than Roselia. Just lacking in power, spikes, and a resist to scald burns and Ice Beam freezes. Both would have to sacrifice some Defense Evs to get a OHKO on a few mons with Energy Ball or Giga Drain.
There may also be a niche for Meganium now as with Aromatherapy and equal 100 in both defensive stats, if you need a bulky grass-type that doesn't mind Toxic as much as the ones previously mentioned you may want to give Meganium a glance, although it misses out on Sleep Powder.
Spike-Stacking has already been stated fairly easily. Nothing new to add unless you want me to talk about Tentacool and Koffing?
I suppose some Defoggers may lose their momentum as they no longer have Spikes to be immune to so they lose one small reason to use them. Also since Stealth Rocks become the main Entry Hazard to remove Vibrava and Wartortle as the only two removers that aren't weak to them might see a bit of an increase, but this is just me trying to offer something new to talk about now.
We have been seeing some changes, especially in lower tiers that usually get shuffled every tier shift thanks to its threats moving along the tiering system, and changing the metagame kinda drastically, thanks to an increased viability on pokés that were simply unviable thanks to those threats or just a lower viability on others because they have one less threat to wall or defeat.
Each week I will choose a PU Pokemon. You will have a Week (7 days) to come up with answers for some questions that would be part of the bigger "WHAT IF". An example of that would be:
What would change if Poliwrath got booted from PU thanks to a ban or NU usage?
Sub Questions:
- What poke could replace Poliwrath and how it would fare against the meta?
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Poliwrath not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
- Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?
- Which kind of playstyles could be affected by a Poliwrath ban?
- Why is this change probable in the actual metagame?
- That tier move could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
When trying to answer these questions you should try to think on the whole things that involves that Pokemon in the actual meta, to give a diverse preview of some possible changes in the future.
Our Current Question is:
What would change if Gorebyss got Dropped from NU thanks to a Low usage?
Actual Sub Questions:- How good it could be a Shell Smasher Set from Gorebyss on PU?
- Which other Gorebyss Sets could be successfully used on PU?
- How it would fare Gorebyss against the actual meta?
- Gorebyss Can be banned because of the Shell Smash Set? there could be any other factors that could make Gorebyss broken as well?
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Gorebyss dropping to PU?, Which could be their niches now?
- Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Gorebyss?
- Which kind of playstyles could be favored or crippled by Gorebyss in PU?
- Getting Gorebyss onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU just to check it?
The not so hot part of Gorebyss is that while it does have a nice option on Psychic or the possibility of dealing enough damage to some threats with a Super Effective Hidden Power Electric/Grass, it doesn't have the priority that Huntail can use on Sucker Punch, to deal with some faster threats as Scarfchu or Scarfmime...
However, I'm pretty sure that if Gorebyss drops, it would be a force to reckon with! :3
What would change if Poliwrath got booted from PU thanks to a ban or NU usage?
Sub Questions:
- What poke could replace Poliwrath and how it would fare against the meta?
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Poliwrath not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
- Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?
- Which kind of playstyles could be affected by a Poliwrath ban?
- Why is this change probable in the actual metagame?
- Poliwrath moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
Honestly its very hard to replace such a versatile pokemon. As for rain dance sweeper, we have golduck, floatzel, beartic i guess, carracosta but its still super slow, and i guess armaldo. golduck seems pretty legit out of all of them. however, none of them can quite pull off a rain dance set wthout dedicated rain.
- What poke could replace Poliwrath and how it would fare against the meta?
As a subpuncher, we have floatzel? lol rip subpunch i love that set and would actually cry if i couldnt use it anymore. subpunch floatzel doesn't seem like it could work as well in this meta with no fighting stab and lack of bulk.
As a SpAttacker, we have simipour offensively, and defensively we have... carracosta i guess. nothing really does the same job as well as poliwrath, but carracosta can handle dark types decently, but doesn't have water resist or immunity.
As a resttalker, we do have machoke, but it cant shuffle through a team with circle throw since it doesnt have the move, and doesnt have as good resists as poliwrath. it also suffers from knock off and doesnt like countering dark even though its a fighting type. so its meh.
Increased, definitely dark types like pawn and mightyena, maybe even broken. poliwrath was the premiere dark type counter, and without it dark types honestly run rampant.
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Poliwrath not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
Increased again, things like barbaracle and carracosta dont have to run zen headbutt and aerial ace to beat poliwrath and are overall more effective, maybe even broken as well. i might go more into these two points later.
As for decrease, i will have to think more about that. I always thought about how things would increase in viability, but never thought about the decreases. Off the top of my head, grumpig becomes less viable. it doesnt come in on poliwrath anymore, and even though it has the colbur focus blast set, it still isnt good enough to handle dark types. pawn and mightyena can still eat it up which makes it less viable if they become more viable.
The unconventional zenheadbutt carracosta sets and aerial ace barbaracle sets will not need them anymore, relicanth doesnt need zen headbutt lol. simipour wouldnt really need to run grass knot, correct me on that if i'm wrong. now it would have room for hp electric or sub or something cool.
- Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?
Balance would be hit hard without this pokemon, poliwrath was glue on most balance teams. with dark spam running rampant wthout poliwrath, balance would struggle to deal with it. offense would go crazy with double dark cores, and simipour now beats pelipper easy.
- Which kind of playstyles could be affected by a Poliwrath ban?
The usage stats in nu are looking for this to maybe happen, lets pray it doesnt.
- Why is this change probable in the actual metagame?
free relicanth pls. but besides for that, grumpig MAYBE would drop, but not sure on that. i need to think about that question.
- Poliwrath moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
these are my base thoughts on this
omg how do i get rid of these attached files xD xD
There really isn't any Pokemon currently in PU that can replace Poliwrath's job. Simipour does pretty well, but it is just too frail. Golduck seems like a cool Pokemon to replace the Swift Swim set though. For a Dark-type check, the only viable candidate seems to be Machoke, although I may be wrong. The thing is that Machoke works completely differently and really suffers from Knock Off and no priority Fighting-type moves. There are some viable RestTalkers, but they check completely different things. The last thing that PU would lack is an offensive shuffler.
- What poke could replace Poliwrath and how it would fare against the meta?
That is a hard question to answer. My guess would be Dark-types and Dark-type spam cores. This is reinforced with the departure of Togetic. Machoke will also be used WAY more to stop Dark-types. Psychic-types is one that is iffy to me. They may decrease because of Dark-types, but increase because of Fighting-types. That makes me think that Scraggy will have a nice niche of being able to scare off Psychic-types and still be able to check Dark-types (although Play Rough is a worry). Shell Smashers will definitely increase with one less check to worry about. Floatzel, Simipour, and Frogadier will benefit with less competition and more chances for the spotlight.
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Poliwrath not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
Grass-type coverage will not have to be run as much. Many sets run Hidden Power Grass, and that won't have to be used as much. Frogadier's Grass Knot will be much more obsolete. Psychic on Ninetales won't have to be used because Fire Blast does the same damage to Fighting-types anyways (180 and 180). It was only used for Poliwrath as far as I can tell. Poliwrath leaving does mean a little less need for Grass-type moves, so maybe Zebstrika can run Lightning Rod?
- Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?
I strongly believe that Hazard teams will be shaken from the part of Circle Throw Poliwrath. Another playstyle that may be really effect could be bulky offense because Dark-types can run rampant and there isn't many things to stop them bar Machoke.
- Which kind of playstyles could be affected by a Poliwrath ban?
The change is probable in the actual metagame because the usage seems to point at Poliwrath leaving.
- Why is this change probable in the actual metagame?
Poliwrath in NU will probably decrease the usage of some Pokemon in NU because of its versatility. I don't think many things will come out of FU because the main problem with FU is that the Pokemon there are outclassed by Pokemon in PU. Ex: Electabuzz and Raichu / Zebstrika.
- Poliwrath moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
What would change if Crustle got Dropped from NU thanks to a Low usage?
Actual Sub Questions:
- What could be the best Crustle Set in PU, and which other niches could Crustle fill with other secondary sets?
- How it would fare Crustle against the actual meta?
- Crustle could be banned because of being terribly broken for PU?
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Crustle dropping to PU?, Which could be their niches now?
- Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Crustle?
- Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Crustle in PU?
- Getting Crustle onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU
The best set would be hands down Hazard stacking Crustle. With some good defenses, it can take a hit and set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes quite easily. What makes Crustle so dangerous is that after one Shell Smash, it can beat every single common defogger in PU, and can even kill Bold 252 Def Pelipper with 3 hits of Rock Blast. The only defogger that would give it a lot of trouble would be Vibrava. A Shell Smash set will be completely outclassed by Barbaracle or even Carracosta because of their better offensive stats and arguably better movepool.
- What could be the best Crustle Set in PU, and which other niches could Crustle fill with other secondary sets?
Right now? It would face a lot of trouble with Poliwrath, the Groudon-Primal of PU. What is really scary though is that Poliwrath has a high chance of leaving making Crustle much more efficient. Crustle would do generally well but has to be wary of the many fast Electric-types that roam PU. It may even get a little ignored (although I doubt it) because Piloswine is so integrated in the metagame that it will be hard for some people to get away from Piloswine. But the thing is that Crustle's only job is to set up Spikes and SR, and it can do that so easily and so well.
- How it would fare Crustle against the actual meta?
I feel like Crustle would be banned. Because it is broken? No. Because it would be the new Garbador of PU. Being able to stack multiple hazards and able to kill common defoggers, Crustle could become over-centralizing in PU and would make Hazard Stacking take over PU. Maybe the metagame will adjust enough to make Crustle only a good Pokemon, but that is hard to believe especially if Poliwrath leaves.
- Crustle could be banned because of being terribly broken for PU?
Call me crazy, but I feel like Vibrava may have some more usage and viability. It can take hits from Crustle with Roost, take care of Crustle, and resists or is immune to any hazard Crustle tries to plant throughout the game. I guess Crustle could run HP Ice for Vibrava, but that would mean that the usual Defoggers that he can take care of are a problem again. Except for that, Misdreavus could have even more viability because it can shut down Crustle completely with Taunt and Will-o-Wisp. The last Pokemon that could get less usage / viability would be the -pede family. Right now the stars of HO, they would be outclassed by Crustle. Why? Because they can only place one type of instant damage hazard (Spikes). Toxic Spikes is sometimes helpful, yes, but HO usually doesn't expect to take hit after hit with each Pokemon for Toxic Spikes to do any damage. Stealth Rock would do some good instant so that HO can KO teams so much faster.
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Crustle dropping to PU? Which could be their niches now?
I feel that there is going to be no difference in spreads for Pokemon. I feel that there isn't going to be any changes in the spreads because Crustle doesn't have a glaring weakness. His typing makes it so he doesn't have many resistances and has a few 2x effectives, but there isn't any 4x effective weaknesses which means that Pokemon could just use that their STAB or coverage moves already to deal as much damage.
- Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Crustle?
This is a no-brainer. Crustle will make Hazard Stacking so popular and deadly and will also make HO more viable because it is a able to set up two types of damaging Hazards with Custab Berry and Sturdy.
- Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Crustle in PU?
I feel like Klang could rise into PU if Crustle is used enough. Crustle would become easy set-up fodder for Klang, and Klang is already a good Pokemon. The only reason I feel it is in FU is because it is just not seen much and a little underrated. I don't know what will drop from NU because there isn't any Pokemon in NU that only is used because of Crustle.
- Getting Crustle onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
Crustle Attacks:
+2 252 Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 294-348 (91 - 107.7%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO
Crustle Checks:
+2 252 Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Vibrava: 108-126 (35.5 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
What would change if Roselia got Banned from PU?
Actual Sub Questions:
- Which Poké could fill Roselia's niches as a bulky Grass type, and as a Spikes stacker?
- How it would fare its replacement in the meta?
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Roselia not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
- Roselia moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
- Which Pokés now will run another moves since they doesn't need to deal with Roselia?
- Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Roselia leaving PU?
- Is a Roselia Ban probable after the possible ban of Carracosta and Barbaracle?
- Which Poké could fill Roselia's niches as a bulky Grass type, and as a Spikes stacker?
- How it would fare its replacement in the meta?
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Roselia not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
- Roselia moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
- Which Pokés now will run another moves since they doesn't need to deal with Roselia?
- Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Roselia leaving PU?
- Is a Roselia Ban probable after the possible ban of Carracosta and Barbaracle?
- Which Poké could fill Roselia's niches as a bulky Grass type, and as a Spikes stacker?
- How it would fare its replacement in the meta?
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Roselia not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
- Roselia moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
- Which Pokés now will run another moves since they doesn't need to deal with Roselia?
- Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Roselia leaving PU?
- Is a Roselia Ban probable after the possible ban of Carracosta and Barbaracle?
- Which Poké could fill Roselia's niches as a bulky Grass type, and as a Spikes stacker?
For the sake of perhaps a new conversation (don't kill me for this, however, bad it may be) I kind of want to mention both Ivysaur and Gloom. I remember somebody mentioning them before on the forum and they were unceremoniously dumped because Roselia was just better. But if Roselia were to leave they might have a chance to shine. They have the same Special Bulk (actually more due to 10 more HP) and same typing, meaning a resist to Fighting-Type moves, they also both have Sleep Powder, and better physical bulk than Roselia. Just lacking in power, spikes, and a resist to scald burns and Ice Beam freezes. Both would have to sacrifice some Defense Evs to get a OHKO on a few mons with Energy Ball or Giga Drain.
There may also be a niche for Meganium now as with Aromatherapy and equal 100 in both defensive stats, if you need a bulky grass-type that doesn't mind Toxic as much as the ones previously mentioned you may want to give Meganium a glance, although it misses out on Sleep Powder.
Spike-Stacking has already been stated fairly easily. Nothing new to add unless you want me to talk about Tentacool and Koffing?
- How it would fare its replacement in the meta?
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Roselia not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
I suppose some Defoggers may lose their momentum as they no longer have Spikes to be immune to so they lose one small reason to use them. Also since Stealth Rocks become the main Entry Hazard to remove Vibrava and Wartortle as the only two removers that aren't weak to them might see a bit of an increase, but this is just me trying to offer something new to talk about now.
- Roselia moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
- Which Pokés now will run another moves since they doesn't need to deal with Roselia?
- Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Roselia leaving PU?
- Is a Roselia Ban probable after the possible ban of Carracosta and Barbaracle?
What would change if Muk got Dropped from NU thanks to a Low usage?
Actual Sub Questions:- What could be the best Muk Set in PU, and which other niches could Muk fill with other secondary sets?
- How it would fare Muk against the actual meta?
- Muk could be banned because of being terribly broken for PU?
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Muk dropping to PU?, Which could be their niches now?
- Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Muk?
- Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Muk in PU?
- Getting Muk onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
- What could be the best Muk Set in PU, and which other niches could Muk fill with other secondary sets?
- How it would fare Muk against the actual meta?
- Muk could be banned because of being terribly broken for PU?
- Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Muk dropping to PU?, Which could be their niches now?
- Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Muk?
- Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Muk in PU?
- Getting Muk onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
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