Project The PU "What If" Thread. Week 5-Gorebyss

[Rennyjesus]

Approved by galbia, WhiteDMist and Magnemite

THE PU "WHAT IF..." THREAD

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This project aims to realize, how the metagames could be impacted in the case that one particular threat got onto the metagame from a Higher tier or got booted from the tier thanks to a higher usage or a ban.

We have been seeing some changes, especially in lower tiers that usually get shuffled every tier shift thanks to its threats moving along the tiering system, and changing the metagame kinda drastically, thanks to an increased viability on pokés that were simply unviable thanks to those threats or just a lower viability on others because they have one less threat to wall or defeat.

Each week I will choose a PU Pokemon. You will have a Week (7 days) to come up with answers for some questions that would be part of the bigger "WHAT IF". An example of that would be:
What would change if Poliwrath got booted from PU thanks to a ban or NU usage?
Sub Questions:

• What poke could replace Poliwrath and how it would fare against the meta?
• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Poliwrath not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
• Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?
• Which kind of playstyles could be affected by a Poliwrath ban?
• Why is this change probable in the actual metagame?
• That tier move could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

When trying to answer these questions you should try to think on the whole things that involves that Pokemon in the actual meta, to give a diverse preview of some possible changes in the future.

Our Current Question is:

What would change if Gorebyss got Dropped from NU thanks to a Low usage?

Actual Sub Questions:

• How good it could be a Shell Smasher Set from Gorebyss on PU?
  
• Which other Gorebyss Sets could be successfully used on PU?
  
• How it would fare Gorebyss against the actual meta?
• Gorebyss Can be banned because of the Shell Smash Set? there could be any other factors that could make Gorebyss broken as well?
• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Gorebyss dropping to PU?, Which could be their niches now?
• Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Gorebyss?
• Which kind of playstyles could be favored or crippled by Gorebyss in PU?
• Getting Gorebyss onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU just to check it?

This "What If" is based around Gorebyss low usage on NU... Heck, it was even barely surviving the August Quick Drop... For a lot of people Gorebyss is felt as a huge threat for PU because of the Shell Smash set that could be setting up thanks to Jumpluff or Misdreavus using Memento and thanks to a decent physical bulk. That could also be told from Huntail, However Gorebyss does have a much better special attack which is much more appreciated on a tier with Physically Defensive Grass mons like Gourgeist-XL and Tangela. Also, unlike Huntail, thanks to that Higer power, it can get some OHKO's that Huntail couldn't like specially defensive Gogoat, Tangela or Gourgeist...

The not so hot part of Gorebyss is that while it does have a nice option on Psychic or the possibility of dealing enough damage to some threats with a Super Effective Hidden Power Electric/Grass, it doesn't have the priority that Huntail can use on Sucker Punch, to deal with some faster threats as Scarfchu or Scarfmime...

However, I'm pretty sure that if Gorebyss drops, it would be a force to reckon with! :3

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week one: Poliwrath Rising to NU

What would change if Poliwrath got booted from PU thanks to a ban or NU usage?

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Sub Questions:

• What poke could replace Poliwrath and how it would fare against the meta?
• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Poliwrath not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
• Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?
• Which kind of playstyles could be affected by a Poliwrath ban?
• Why is this change probable in the actual metagame?
• Poliwrath moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

Answers:

Zstaffo

• What poke could replace Poliwrath and how it would fare against the meta?

Honestly its very hard to replace such a versatile pokemon. As for rain dance sweeper, we have golduck, floatzel, beartic i guess, carracosta but its still super slow, and i guess armaldo. golduck seems pretty legit out of all of them. however, none of them can quite pull off a rain dance set wthout dedicated rain.

As a subpuncher, we have floatzel? lol rip subpunch i love that set and would actually cry if i couldnt use it anymore. subpunch floatzel doesn't seem like it could work as well in this meta with no fighting stab and lack of bulk.

As a SpAttacker, we have simipour offensively, and defensively we have... carracosta i guess. nothing really does the same job as well as poliwrath, but carracosta can handle dark types decently, but doesn't have water resist or immunity.

As a resttalker, we do have machoke, but it cant shuffle through a team with circle throw since it doesnt have the move, and doesnt have as good resists as poliwrath. it also suffers from knock off and doesnt like countering dark even though its a fighting type. so its meh.

• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Poliwrath not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?

Increased, definitely dark types like pawn and mightyena, maybe even broken. poliwrath was the premiere dark type counter, and without it dark types honestly run rampant.

Increased again, things like barbaracle and carracosta dont have to run zen headbutt and aerial ace to beat poliwrath and are overall more effective, maybe even broken as well. i might go more into these two points later.

As for decrease, i will have to think more about that. I always thought about how things would increase in viability, but never thought about the decreases. Off the top of my head, grumpig becomes less viable. it doesnt come in on poliwrath anymore, and even though it has the colbur focus blast set, it still isnt good enough to handle dark types. pawn and mightyena can still eat it up which makes it less viable if they become more viable.

• Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?

The unconventional zenheadbutt carracosta sets and aerial ace barbaracle sets will not need them anymore, relicanth doesnt need zen headbutt lol. simipour wouldnt really need to run grass knot, correct me on that if i'm wrong. now it would have room for hp electric or sub or something cool.

• Which kind of playstyles could be affected by a Poliwrath ban?

Balance would be hit hard without this pokemon, poliwrath was glue on most balance teams. with dark spam running rampant wthout poliwrath, balance would struggle to deal with it. offense would go crazy with double dark cores, and simipour now beats pelipper easy.

• Why is this change probable in the actual metagame?

The usage stats in nu are looking for this to maybe happen, lets pray it doesnt.

• Poliwrath moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

free relicanth pls. but besides for that, grumpig MAYBE would drop, but not sure on that. i need to think about that question.

these are my base thoughts on this


omg how do i get rid of these attached files xD xD

ExplosiveChaos

• What poke could replace Poliwrath and how it would fare against the meta?

There really isn't any Pokemon currently in PU that can replace Poliwrath's job. Simipour does pretty well, but it is just too frail. Golduck seems like a cool Pokemon to replace the Swift Swim set though. For a Dark-type check, the only viable candidate seems to be Machoke, although I may be wrong. The thing is that Machoke works completely differently and really suffers from Knock Off and no priority Fighting-type moves. There are some viable RestTalkers, but they check completely different things. The last thing that PU would lack is an offensive shuffler.

• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Poliwrath not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?

That is a hard question to answer. My guess would be Dark-types and Dark-type spam cores. This is reinforced with the departure of Togetic. Machoke will also be used WAY more to stop Dark-types. Psychic-types is one that is iffy to me. They may decrease because of Dark-types, but increase because of Fighting-types. That makes me think that Scraggy will have a nice niche of being able to scare off Psychic-types and still be able to check Dark-types (although Play Rough is a worry). Shell Smashers will definitely increase with one less check to worry about. Floatzel, Simipour, and Frogadier will benefit with less competition and more chances for the spotlight.

• Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?

Grass-type coverage will not have to be run as much. Many sets run Hidden Power Grass, and that won't have to be used as much. Frogadier's Grass Knot will be much more obsolete. Psychic on Ninetales won't have to be used because Fire Blast does the same damage to Fighting-types anyways (180 and 180). It was only used for Poliwrath as far as I can tell. Poliwrath leaving does mean a little less need for Grass-type moves, so maybe Zebstrika can run Lightning Rod?

• Which kind of playstyles could be affected by a Poliwrath ban?

I strongly believe that Hazard teams will be shaken from the part of Circle Throw Poliwrath. Another playstyle that may be really effect could be bulky offense because Dark-types can run rampant and there isn't many things to stop them bar Machoke.

• Why is this change probable in the actual metagame?

The change is probable in the actual metagame because the usage seems to point at Poliwrath leaving.

• Poliwrath moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

Poliwrath in NU will probably decrease the usage of some Pokemon in NU because of its versatility. I don't think many things will come out of FU because the main problem with FU is that the Pokemon there are outclassed by Pokemon in PU. Ex: Electabuzz and Raichu / Zebstrika.

week two: Crustle Dropping from NU

What would change if Crustle got Dropped from NU thanks to a Low usage?

Actual Sub Questions:

• What could be the best Crustle Set in PU, and which other niches could Crustle fill with other secondary sets?
• How it would fare Crustle against the actual meta?
• Crustle could be banned because of being terribly broken for PU?
• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Crustle dropping to PU?, Which could be their niches now?
• Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Crustle?
• Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Crustle in PU?
• Getting Crustle onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU

ExplosiveChaos

• What could be the best Crustle Set in PU, and which other niches could Crustle fill with other secondary sets?

The best set would be hands down Hazard stacking Crustle. With some good defenses, it can take a hit and set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes quite easily. What makes Crustle so dangerous is that after one Shell Smash, it can beat every single common defogger in PU, and can even kill Bold 252 Def Pelipper with 3 hits of Rock Blast. The only defogger that would give it a lot of trouble would be Vibrava. A Shell Smash set will be completely outclassed by Barbaracle or even Carracosta because of their better offensive stats and arguably better movepool.

• How it would fare Crustle against the actual meta?

Right now? It would face a lot of trouble with Poliwrath, the Groudon-Primal of PU. What is really scary though is that Poliwrath has a high chance of leaving making Crustle much more efficient. Crustle would do generally well but has to be wary of the many fast Electric-types that roam PU. It may even get a little ignored (although I doubt it) because Piloswine is so integrated in the metagame that it will be hard for some people to get away from Piloswine. But the thing is that Crustle's only job is to set up Spikes and SR, and it can do that so easily and so well.

• Crustle could be banned because of being terribly broken for PU?

I feel like Crustle would be banned. Because it is broken? No. Because it would be the new Garbador of PU. Being able to stack multiple hazards and able to kill common defoggers, Crustle could become over-centralizing in PU and would make Hazard Stacking take over PU. Maybe the metagame will adjust enough to make Crustle only a good Pokemon, but that is hard to believe especially if Poliwrath leaves.

• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Crustle dropping to PU? Which could be their niches now?

Call me crazy, but I feel like Vibrava may have some more usage and viability. It can take hits from Crustle with Roost, take care of Crustle, and resists or is immune to any hazard Crustle tries to plant throughout the game. I guess Crustle could run HP Ice for Vibrava, but that would mean that the usual Defoggers that he can take care of are a problem again. Except for that, Misdreavus could have even more viability because it can shut down Crustle completely with Taunt and Will-o-Wisp. The last Pokemon that could get less usage / viability would be the -pede family. Right now the stars of HO, they would be outclassed by Crustle. Why? Because they can only place one type of instant damage hazard (Spikes). Toxic Spikes is sometimes helpful, yes, but HO usually doesn't expect to take hit after hit with each Pokemon for Toxic Spikes to do any damage. Stealth Rock would do some good instant so that HO can KO teams so much faster.

• Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Crustle?

I feel that there is going to be no difference in spreads for Pokemon. I feel that there isn't going to be any changes in the spreads because Crustle doesn't have a glaring weakness. His typing makes it so he doesn't have many resistances and has a few 2x effectives, but there isn't any 4x effective weaknesses which means that Pokemon could just use that their STAB or coverage moves already to deal as much damage.

• Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Crustle in PU?

This is a no-brainer. Crustle will make Hazard Stacking so popular and deadly and will also make HO more viable because it is a able to set up two types of damaging Hazards with Custab Berry and Sturdy.

• Getting Crustle onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

I feel like Klang could rise into PU if Crustle is used enough. Crustle would become easy set-up fodder for Klang, and Klang is already a good Pokemon. The only reason I feel it is in FU is because it is just not seen much and a little underrated. I don't know what will drop from NU because there isn't any Pokemon in NU that only is used because of Crustle.

Relevant Calcs

Crustle Attacks:
+2 252 Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 294-348 (91 - 107.7%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO
Crustle Checks:
+2 252 Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Vibrava: 108-126 (35.5 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

week three: Roselia Rising to NU

What would change if Roselia got Banned from PU?

Actual Sub Questions:

• Which Poké could fill Roselia's niches as a bulky Grass type, and as a Spikes stacker?
• How it would fare its replacement in the meta?
• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Roselia not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
• Roselia moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
• Which Pokés now will run another moves since they doesn't need to deal with Roselia?
• Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Roselia leaving PU?
• Is a Roselia Ban probable after the possible ban of Carracosta and Barbaracle?

ExplosiveChaos

• Which Poké could fill Roselia's niches as a bulky Grass type, and as a Spikes stacker?

As a bulky Grass-type, there are many replacements already. Tangela, Quilladin, Gourgeist, and, in some ways, Gogoat are all bulky Grass-type. Gogoat would be the offensive bulky Grass-type, although it seems like Tangela is the most accurate representation of Roselia because it has an offensive and defensive set, but it is bulky in Defense and not Special Defense. As a spike stacker, none of them are as bulky or effective offensively as Roselia. PU has the -pede family which is good at stacking, but they are suicide leads. Other spike stackers are not as durable and don't check as many things.

• How it would fare its replacement in the meta?

I will edit this in if you give more of an explanation what this means. I am not completely sure if you are talking about PU or Roselia, and what about those things.

• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Roselia not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?

The obvious answer would Grass-types, especially bulky Grass-types such as Gourgeist or Tangela, although they don't replace Roselia as a Special Wall. Offensive Grass-types such as Gogoat, Sawsbuck, and Leafeon won't have a check that 4x resists their STAB and KOs with Sludge Bomb. Some other Pokemon would be Hazard setters. Some guesses would be Crustle, the -pede family, and Quilladin, but none of them have the handy Sleep Powder. Zebstrika and Raichu would have a check in less, and special attackers in general would be way better off because of the bulk that Roselia possesses. The last Pokemon that I feel would really appreciate Roselia leaving are Water-types. Although they have Ice Beam, Roselia specializes in Special Defense meaning not enough damage most of the time.

• Roselia moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

Well, I don't feel like Roselia would really make a big enough impact in NU that it would motivate decreases, and a lot of NU's top tier threats KO Roselia pretty easily. In FU rises, maybe Basculin will get a little more love now that it doesn't have to worry about Roselia and it kills Tangela / Gourg with Ice Beam. That is all I can think of, but I am sure there are some others.

• Which Pokés now will run another moves since they doesn't need to deal with Roselia?

Although uncommon, now Zen Headbutt would be completely useless on Carracosta, and so would Aerial Ace on Barbaracle. Golduck will not have to run Psychic anymore either. Except for that, I don't have many that I can think of. Roselia is very good, but there isn't any reason usually to run a move just to kill it because you usually have no space or you just have coverage for it that you can't do better, but just doesn't do enough.

• Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Roselia leaving PU?

The number one playstyle that would be damaged would be Hazard Stacking, because it relies on bulky Hazard setters which Roselia can do very well, especially with both Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Due to this, I feel like people that played Hazard Stacking will be tempted to use HO as a way to keep the Hazard Stacking feeling but still being effective in battle. HO would also appreciate having a Hazard user in less to worry about.

• Is a Roselia Ban probable after the possible ban of Carracosta and Barbaracle?

I don't think Roselia would be banned after the possible ban of Carracosta and Barbaracle because pre tier-shift, when the smashers were less effective and less used, Roselia wasn't going to be banned, so I don't think it will start now. Also, it isn't broken in any way. It is just really good at what it does and can pull it off most of the time. It is still able to be KOed and isn't that strong that it can KO everything in sight.

MaroGod

• Which Poké could fill Roselia's niches as a bulky Grass type, and as a Spikes stacker?

Gourgeist-XL,Tangela,Spdef Gogoat and Quilladin all would fill the role of a bulky Grass-Type. Spikes arent put on a lot of Pu/Fu pokes with the likes of Delibird and Maractus being the only Pu mons that would get it. But there are some decent options with the likes of Dwebble,Venipede,Whirlipede and the pre-mentioned Quilladin all being viable options.

• How it would fare its replacement in the meta?

The only true replacement would be Quilladin as its the only bulky grass type with spikes. Considering it is a more physically bulky mon it wouldnt be used in the same way since it would check/counter a whole other variety of mons. I honestly could see people attempting Budew if Roselia left but the thing that made Rose so deadly was the fact you dont need investment in its Special Attack to hurt the opposition.

• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Roselia not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?

Electric types (Zebstrika,Raichu) Lose a check/counter SpA Water-Types would appreciate the loss of a check but none would get an overall massive improvement bard Basculin which could run HP electric over Zen-Headbutt. Tangela+Simisage would enjoy the loss Sage would lose a very annoying check and tangela would lose a threat.

• Roselia moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

Although Roselia is a great mon its not exactly a massive impact rather then a nuisance to most teams. It certainly can impact a match with its hazards and the odd sleep powder but if its running Powder that would mean you know it would either have only Giga/Sludge or no Synthesis. To be honest i wouldn't see how Rose rising would affect Fu at all its a great mon but has never been a part of the tier nor hard stopped any of them from rising. Nu wise there is 0 chance something would drop because of Roselia in fact it would face massive competition from Vileplume which in itself is a great pokemon and while Rose has the hazards Plume has the much better bulk and better SpA.

• Which Pokés now will run another moves since they doesn't need to deal with Roselia?

The Pre-mentioned Zen-Headbutt thing but overall there is not really anything that ran something specific for Rose. As i said previously its meta defining for its hazards and reliability not its typing (which is good but not gonna force people to run something else)

• Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Roselia leaving PU?

Hazard Stacking+Stall would suffer and would allow a combination of Bulky-Offense and Hyper-Offense to become a lot more succesful especially B-Offense losing something that would wear it down so easily.

• Is a Roselia Ban probable after the possible ban of Carracosta and Barbaracle?

Pffffffft. Rose is a very good mon but there is no way it would be banned. It isnt the hardest thing in the world to take down or play against. its countered by Steel or Poison types (Arbok,Metang,Klang and the odd Swalot) and its easily taken down by strong Physical Attackers. It would appreciate the ban of the Smashers but nothing else would change for it in fact it could get worse since there are a lot of offensive pokemon being held back Barb/Costa. Just got to wait and see

teamdreamers412

• Which Poké could fill Roselia's niches as a bulky Grass type, and as a Spikes stacker?

It is basically summarized as thus. If you want sleep and bulk, pick Tangela. If you want Spikes and bulk, pick Quilladin. If you want Specially Defensive Bulk, pick Gogoat. Roselia provided all three along with status absorption thanks to Natural Cure. Gourgeist-XL is also a viable replacement, but he didn't fit into my nice explanation.
For the sake of perhaps a new conversation (don't kill me for this, however, bad it may be) I kind of want to mention both Ivysaur and Gloom. I remember somebody mentioning them before on the forum and they were unceremoniously dumped because Roselia was just better. But if Roselia were to leave they might have a chance to shine. They have the same Special Bulk (actually more due to 10 more HP) and same typing, meaning a resist to Fighting-Type moves, they also both have Sleep Powder, and better physical bulk than Roselia. Just lacking in power, spikes, and a resist to scald burns and Ice Beam freezes. Both would have to sacrifice some Defense Evs to get a OHKO on a few mons with Energy Ball or Giga Drain.
There may also be a niche for Meganium now as with Aromatherapy and equal 100 in both defensive stats, if you need a bulky grass-type that doesn't mind Toxic as much as the ones previously mentioned you may want to give Meganium a glance, although it misses out on Sleep Powder.
Spike-Stacking has already been stated fairly easily. Nothing new to add unless you want me to talk about Tentacool and Koffing?

• How it would fare its replacement in the meta?

Quilladin will probably benefit the most seeing as it becomes the bulkiest Spike stacker in the meta, Gogoat will rise as it becomes the most Specially Defensive Grass-Type, and Tangela would benefit the least as its a physical wall like it always was. It just no longer has the alternative.Ivysaur and Gloom both may become D-ranked, big whoop. And Meganium might see some use.

• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Roselia not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?

The replacements as stated above for the reasons above. All Specially offensive Water-Types would love to be able to either Surf or Ice Beam and get a KO on things. Physical ones might lose some ground as Tangela becomes more and more popular meaning they don't fair quite as well with Ice Fang. Offensive Grass-Types as no more x4 resists unless Gloom and Ivysaur catch on more than they should. As well as Electric-types like Raichu and Zebstrika as they no longer have one more bulky Grass-Type to worry about.
I suppose some Defoggers may lose their momentum as they no longer have Spikes to be immune to so they lose one small reason to use them. Also since Stealth Rocks become the main Entry Hazard to remove Vibrava and Wartortle as the only two removers that aren't weak to them might see a bit of an increase, but this is just me trying to offer something new to talk about now.

• Roselia moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

Roselia is basically like a Spiking Vileplume so no change from NU. FU might lose some Water-Types (like Basculiin and maybe Golduck as it was a Specially offensive Water-Type) it held, but PU has plenty of those (Simipour). Quilladin and even Whirlipede might rise as PU would be desperately in need of Spikes, but I can't see either really gaining too much steam as they both missing something (Sleep Powder for Quilladin and longevity for Whirlipede). I can't imagine too many others leaving.

• Which Pokés now will run another moves since they doesn't need to deal with Roselia?

Roselia wasn't particularly bulky on the defensive side so most mons could just focus on that rather than SE coverage.

• Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Roselia leaving PU?

Stall would take a hit as it loses a Specially Defensive mon along with a reliable source of poison in Toxic Spikes. Hazard Stacking as everybody else said would also be heavily injured. Hyper Offense would probably see a rise as people who loved Spikes would basically be stuck picking up a suicide spiker if they wanted to keep it.

• Is a Roselia Ban probable after the possible ban of Carracosta and Barbaracle?

Roselia is practically the epitome of S-Rank. It can do what it does without any extra support. Its not broken thanks to a rather low physical defense allows many mons to take advantage of that and outright kill it. Its good, even great for tier, but far from broken. Its a hazard stacker, which is weak to the majority of the hazard removers. Pelipper, Swanna, Torkoal, and Avalugg all carry an SE move and Armaldo just had such huge base ATK stat and Knock-Off that Roselia was scared of him. Its not impossible to stop it from doing its job.

week four: Muk Dropping from NU

What would change if Muk got Dropped from NU thanks to a Low usage?

Actual Sub Questions:

• What could be the best Muk Set in PU, and which other niches could Muk fill with other secondary sets?
• How it would fare Muk against the actual meta?
• Muk could be banned because of being terribly broken for PU?
• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Muk dropping to PU?, Which could be their niches now?
• Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Muk?
• Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Muk in PU?
• Getting Muk onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

This "What If" is based around Muk's Viability now on NU... Since Skuntank dropped onto NU, Muk has been seeing as a really not effective pokémon, that is just capable of dealing some damage and almost nothing else, because it doesn't have that coveted Psychic Immunity in a tier infested with those kind of pokés and it Skuntank still have the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes while having a nice options like Pursuit and Defog. So, if we consider that Muk is considered a "C" Rank pokémon, it looks pretty probable that it can drop in the next tier change.

ExplosiveChaos

• What could be the best Muk Set in PU, and which other niches could Muk fill with other secondary sets?

The best Muk set in PU will probably be Assault Vest. Muk would be a better Swalot, because it can check a lot of the most common Pokemon in PU, has a 50%+ chance of poisoning with Poison Touch + Poison Jab, and is all an all around bulky Pokemon. Power-up Punch and Shadow Sneak are also nice to have, and it lets Muk not be completely walled by Probopass and lets it start getting some good damage off. Another good set is Curse Muk, although the lack of reliable recovery is damaging. Muk just needs to find sets were he can really maximize the efficiency of his natural bulk.

• How it would fare Muk against the actual meta?

I feel like Muk would do okay in the meta. AV can check the Simi, Floatzel, and more importantly, Roselia. Roselia will have trouble doing much to Muk, and Muk can absorb those Toxic Spikes. Muk just checks a lot of Pokemon, which make me think it will do well in this meta. Poison Touch is also quite good because of all that residual damage from Poison that stacks well with Hazards. So Hazard Stacking teams may have this as a Pokemon in their defensive core to make the most of the residual damage. Muk also checks Jumpluff (although Sleep Powder is rough), and can switch into Machoke pretty easily.

• Muk could be banned because of being terribly broken for PU?

Muk is not close to being broken, I doubt he would even be S rank in PU. Although I said it checks a lot of Pokemon in PU, there are still a lot of Pokemon it doesn't check. Kadabra and Duosion are rising in popularity, and Muk has nothing about it that screams OP. It doesn't have Knock Off, nor does it have any shuffling moves that it can abuse. It is kind of like Pelipper. Bulky, defensive, does some decent damage, nothing broken.

• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Muk dropping to PU?, Which could be their niches now?

Well, Duosion and Kadabra may have slightly more increase in usage because of their Super Effective STAB, and so could Probopass because it walls Muk without Power-up Punch quite well. Swalot would be completely useless now since Muk is better in every way. Roselia would take a hit, but I still think Roselia will do completely fine with Muk in the meta. Klang may also get some more love because it more or less completely shuts down Muk and just uses Muk as setup bait. Misdreavus also could be used to shut down attempts to setup using Power-Up Punch, and then burn Muk with Will-o-Wisp. Tangela will also have a little bonus over Roselia of not being able to get completely decimated by Muk because of all that physical bulk. Ditto with Gourgeist.

• Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Muk?

Roselia may have to run a little bit more Defense EVs, but it isn't like Roselia can do anything back to Muk. Ground coverage may take a little bit of increase in Popularity if Muk is that common. Psyshock may be something used instead of Psychic or as coverage in general on things like Ninetales to hit Muk's lower Defense and to also bypass the Assault Vest.

• Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Muk in PU?

I feel like hazard stacking will get a bonus by being able to get even more residual damage from Muk's Poison Touch. Balance will also be promoted because another viable Pokemon in the defensive core role, and Offense will have a new defensive threat to worry about. Bulky Attacking will also favor a new bulky attacker like PuP Muk or Curse Muk.

• Getting Muk onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

I feel like Muk may motivate the rise of Klang into PU. NU is not using Muk at all anyways, so there won't be any motivation for drops because of Muk itself. Some other possible rises from FU could be Stunfisk (or did that leave already?) because it covers Muk pretty much perfectly. Ground-types will maybe have a boost in confidence because Muk would mean 1 more victim that is easy to KO. Krokorok may go up a little because it can pretty much use Muk to either damage a switch-in, or kill Muk and get +1. Thats all I can think of, but there are probably more.

 

[tom holland]

• What poke could replace Poliwrath and how it would fare against the meta?

Honestly its very hard to replace such a versatile pokemon. As for rain dance sweeper, we have golduck, floatzel, beartic i guess, carracosta but its still super slow, and i guess armaldo. golduck seems pretty legit out of all of them. however, none of them can quite pull off a rain dance set wthout dedicated rain.

As a subpuncher, we have floatzel? lol rip subpunch i love that set and would actually cry if i couldnt use it anymore. subpunch floatzel doesn't seem like it could work as well in this meta with no fighting stab and lack of bulk.

As a SpAttacker, we have simipour offensively, and defensively we have... carracosta i guess. nothing really does the same job as well as poliwrath, but carracosta can handle dark types decently, but doesn't have water resist or immunity.

As a resttalker, we do have machoke, but it cant shuffle through a team with circle throw since it doesnt have the move, and doesnt have as good resists as poliwrath. it also suffers from knock off and doesnt like countering dark even though its a fighting type. so its meh.

• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Poliwrath not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?

Increased, definitely dark types like pawn and mightyena, maybe even broken. poliwrath was the premiere dark type counter, and without it dark types honestly run rampant.

Increased again, things like barbaracle and carracosta dont have to run zen headbutt and aerial ace to beat poliwrath and are overall more effective, maybe even broken as well. i might go more into these two points later.

As for decrease, i will have to think more about that. I always thought about how things would increase in viability, but never thought about the decreases. Off the top of my head, grumpig becomes less viable. it doesnt come in on poliwrath anymore, and even though it has the colbur focus blast set, it still isnt good enough to handle dark types. pawn and mightyena can still eat it up which makes it less viable if they become more viable.

• Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?

The unconventional zenheadbutt carracosta sets and aerial ace barbaracle sets will not need them anymore, relicanth doesnt need zen headbutt lol. simipour wouldnt really need to run grass knot, correct me on that if i'm wrong. now it would have room for hp electric or sub or something cool.

• Which kind of playstyles could be affected by a Poliwrath ban?

Balance would be hit hard without this pokemon, poliwrath was glue on most balance teams. with dark spam running rampant wthout poliwrath, balance would struggle to deal with it. offense would go crazy with double dark cores, and simipour now beats pelipper easy.

• Why is this change probable in the actual metagame?

The usage stats in nu are looking for this to maybe happen, lets pray it doesnt.

• Poliwrath moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

free relicanth pls. but besides for that, grumpig MAYBE would drop, but not sure on that. i need to think about that question.

these are my base thoughts on this


omg how do i get rid of these attached files xD xD

 

[MZ]

Pawniard would be banned

 

[Mistress Remilia]

Pawniard would be banned

Probably the 2 ShellSmashers as well.

 

[ExplosiveChaos]

• What poke could replace Poliwrath and how it would fare against the meta?

There really isn't any Pokemon currently in PU that can replace Poliwrath's job. Simipour does pretty well, but it is just too frail. Golduck seems like a cool Pokemon to replace the Swift Swim set though. For a Dark-type check, the only viable candidate seems to be Machoke, although I may be wrong. The thing is that Machoke works completely differently and really suffers from Knock Off and no priority Fighting-type moves. There are some viable RestTalkers, but they check completely different things. The last thing that PU would lack is an offensive shuffler.

• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Poliwrath not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?

That is a hard question to answer. My guess would be Dark-types and Dark-type spam cores. This is reinforced with the departure of Togetic. Machoke will also be used WAY more to stop Dark-types. Psychic-types is one that is iffy to me. They may decrease because of Dark-types, but increase because of Fighting-types. That makes me think that Scraggy will have a nice niche of being able to scare off Psychic-types and still be able to check Dark-types (although Play Rough is a worry). Shell Smashers will definitely increase with one less check to worry about. Floatzel, Simipour, and Frogadier will benefit with less competition and more chances for the spotlight.

• Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?

Grass-type coverage will not have to be run as much. Many sets run Hidden Power Grass, and that won't have to be used as much. Frogadier's Grass Knot will be much more obsolete. Psychic on Ninetales won't have to be used because Fire Blast does the same damage to Fighting-types anyways (180 and 180). It was only used for Poliwrath as far as I can tell. Poliwrath leaving does mean a little less need for Grass-type moves, so maybe Zebstrika can run Lightning Rod?

• Which kind of playstyles could be affected by a Poliwrath ban?

I strongly believe that Hazard teams will be shaken from the part of Circle Throw Poliwrath. Another playstyle that may be really effect could be bulky offense because Dark-types can run rampant and there isn't many things to stop them bar Machoke.

• Why is this change probable in the actual metagame?

The change is probable in the actual metagame because the usage seems to point at Poliwrath leaving.

• Poliwrath moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

Poliwrath in NU will probably decrease the usage of some Pokemon in NU because of its versatility. I don't think many things will come out of FU because the main problem with FU is that the Pokemon there are outclassed by Pokemon in PU. Ex: Electabuzz and Raichu / Zebstrika.

 

[Magnemite]

Probably the 2 ShellSmashers as well.

I'd argue that Carracosta has plenty of checks outside of Poliwrath. Unlike Barbaracle (which I'll get to later), it still loses to everything else that it lost to before, including Tangela and Torterra (minus the uncommon Ice Beam), Floatzel and Jumpluff (if it's not Jolly, and if it is a lot more can take a hit), and Scarf Sawsbuck and Simipour which always beat a set up Carracosta, unlike Barbaracle which can run Jolly to outspeed them. The thing that would make Barbaracle broken is the fact that it could run X Scissor, which OHKOes Torterra and Offensive Tangela at +2, in addition to the fact that it would lose one of its better and most popular checks. This means that the only way to 100% beat a set up Barbaracle would be the mediocre Scarf Raichu.

Also guys please don't post one liners in this thread; explain yourselves when you post (looking at you Megazard and Mistress Remilia).

 

[gasquakee]

• Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?

Grass-type coverage will not have to be run as much. Many sets run Hidden Power Grass, and that won't have to be used as much. Frogadier's Grass Knot will be much more obsolete. Psychic on Ninetales won't have to be used because Fire Blast does the same damage to Fighting-types anyways (180 and 180). It was only used for Poliwrath as far as I can tell. Poliwrath leaving does mean a little less need for Grass-type moves, so maybe Zebstrika can run Lightning Rod?

Uh I just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions. The only time Ninetales ran a psychic move was for Throh and it was Psyshock(it now runs Dark Pulse and Hidden Power Ground). You were inactive for a while though so I dont blame you I just wanted to clear up some sets! :)

 

[ExplosiveChaos]

Uh I just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions. The only time Ninetales ran a psychic move was for Throh and it was Psyshock(it now runs Dark Pulse and Hidden Power Ground). Also Zebstrika runs Sap Sipper for stuff like Jumpluff and Tangela. You were inactive for a while though so I dont blame you I just wanted to clear up some sets! :)

Oh thanks! I only said that because I still see some Psychic in the ladder, and the only obvious thing would be Poliwrath. And the thing about Zebstrika does make more sense when I think about it.

 

[Mistress Remilia]

I'd argue that Carracosta has plenty of checks outside of Poliwrath. Unlike Barbaracle (which I'll get to later), it still loses to everything else that it lost to before, including Tangela and Torterra (minus the uncommon Ice Beam), Floatzel and Jumpluff (if it's not Jolly, and if it is a lot more can take a hit), and Scarf Sawsbuck and Simipour which always beat a set up Carracosta, unlike Barbaracle which can run Jolly to outspeed them. The thing that would make Barbaracle broken is the fact that it could run X Scissor, which OHKOes Torterra and Offensive Tangela at +2, in addition to the fact that it would lose one of its better and most popular checks. This means that the only way to 100% beat a set up Barbaracle would be the mediocre Scarf Raichu.

Also guys please don't post one liners in this thread; explain yourselves when you post (looking at you Megazard and Mistress Remilia).

I'd argue that Carracosta would indeed be broken in a metagame w/out Poliwrath in it. As you mentionned, simply by running Ice Beam, it can bypass 2 of its biggest counters, meaning that if nothing's faster than Costa, it will likely going to shit on your team. At this point, you'll probably tell me that every team carries something to outspeed Costa, but it's just a matter of cleaning, which can be said for Poliwrath, but will usually be harder to get out of the field than others threats you mentionned. I feel like Carracosta in a metagame w/out Poliwrath would simply be a much better pokemon at worse, and a borderline broken/really broken pokemon at best.
Also, note that Costa's other sets become much better with the loss of Poliwrath, as Carracosta is usually a free switch in for Poliwrath, who can then threaten your team with all kind of things such as SubPunch, Specs, Raindance & others ( Toxic is annoying through )
It is possible that Costa might not be broken in a metagame w/out Poliwrath, but i seriously don't think so. It's a bit hard to imagine things such as that for a metagame that you can't even play yourself.

 

[Magnemite]

I'd argue that Carracosta would indeed be broken in a metagame w/out Poliwrath in it. As you mentionned, simply by running Ice Beam, it can bypass 2 of its biggest counters, meaning that if nothing's faster than Costa, it will likely going to shit on your team. At this point, you'll probably tell me that every team carries something to outspeed Costa, but it's just a matter of cleaning, which can be said for Poliwrath, but will usually be harder to get out of the field than others threats you mentionned. I feel like Carracosta in a metagame w/out Poliwrath would simply be a much better pokemon at worse, and a borderline broken/really broken pokemon at best.
Also, note that Costa's other sets become much better with the loss of Poliwrath, as Carracosta is usually a free switch in for Poliwrath, who can then threaten your team with all kind of things such as SubPunch, Specs, Raindance & others ( Toxic is annoying through )

I mean, it can just run Zen Headbutt to lure it now, and while you have to give up a moveslot for it, you have to do the same for Ice Beam. It would obviously be better than it is now, but I don't think it would really be suspect worthy.

 

[Raiza]

Ztstaffo
I would argue that someone could prefer Golduck over Poliwrath as a Rain Dance sweeper even now it is still in the tier. Golduck might have a worse typing and slightly worse bulk, but it is still faster and hits for more damage, becoming way more harder to stop and threatening when Rain is up, so I don't think it's a loss in that regard. About subpunch, it is mainly used because it allows Poliwrath to lure Pokemon such as Roselia and Grumpig, so I think it can be replaced not necessarily by someone that has access to both Substitute and Focus Punch, but by also Pokemon that can lure those effectively, even if running other sets, such as godly physical Raichu to mention one randomly(there are a lot more this is just the one I thought first). So yeah the big loss will occur regarding defensive sets such as the RestTalk, as it makes use mainly of Poliwrath's typing and access to moves such as Circle Throw and Scald, which make it unique and splashable on a big variety of teams. This is a role I don't think Machoke can perform very well...even though it still has a decent typing, Machoke quite relies on Eviolite to keep its bulk high, and RestTalk Poliwrath was also known for being an excellent Knock Off absober, so I don't know about that one. Machoke also misses access to moves such as Circle Throw which prevent it to deal with bulky set up sweepers that could take advantage of Rest, even though Knock Off kinda helps with Pokemon such as Duosion and Clefairy.

also tbh I wouldn't really mind Poliwrath rising, as it will definitely shake the metagame, and if the council will act well regarding it, I think it can affect the tier in a positive manner.

 

[tom holland]

Yeah, I think I said what you did about machoke, but besides for that I completely agree. I didn't think about the fact that sub punch is more of a lure, and I honestly haven't used golduck enough to realize what you said about that. Sorry about the misconceptions, thanks for pointing them out :p I will edit accordingly when I have time!

 

[Raiza]

Yeah, I think I said what you did about machoke, but besides for that I completely agree. I didn't think about the fact that sub punch is more of a lure, and I honestly haven't used golduck enough to realize what you said about that. Sorry about the misconceptions, thanks for pointing them out :p I will edit accordingly when I have time!

Well I mean my post isn't really an adjustment for yours anyway, I was just expressing my opinion on the matter by starting from the points stated in your post

 

[MrAldo]

If Poliwrath moves to NU by whatever reason I think the tier could potentially fall apart. Maybe Im overexaggerating but poliwrath makes a fantastic glue mon to the point it is pretty difficult to see a team without cause it offers a lot for a single teamslot. The problem will not be replacing it on "x" team cause it is always possible to replace a particular role (special tank, rain sweeper, you name it) but the teambuilding compression it provides handling plenty of things in one slot honestly is too priceless. PU will have to suspect or ban a lot of things to achieve a perfect balance again if poliwrath leaves, like barbaracle and pawniard (these 2 without poli will be so borked) cause poliwrath existence keep them at bay, along a couple more of things I dont remember right now.

Im a firm believer that "staleness" isnt equal to boring, sometimes extreme shakeups (something like poliwrath leaving the tier) can be problematic.

Love me some theorymonning, nice thread.

Cheers!

 

[Akir]

Wow, the tier would become much more offensive if wrath leaves...

Balance would take a pretty big blow. The loss of a water immunity in a tier filled with water is big, along with losing the best counter to Dark Spam teams (notably Pawniard, but people have already said that). The frog (frog?) just overall has resists to dark, ice, water, and more that teams really need in order to achieve any amount of defensive synergy. Great glue holding teams together, but without that glue many teams would have to be completely abandoned. Machoke is definitely not Wrath 2.0.

Also, I feel like Water sweepers and Normal sweepers would both become considerably more viable. Floatzel in particular would spike in usage, as it no longer has to deal with a great check and also outspeeds all variants of Carracosta at +2...while the smashers in general will also spike in usage. Simipour will also be much more eager to use the scarf set and can arguably forgo Grass Knot on the Nasty Plot set without needing to deal with wrath anymore. Also, Normal pokes like Stoutland and Sawsbuck would go up in usage, as they no longer have to deal with the only viable user of Vacuum Wave in the tier, or a poke that can easily take a blow and return with the 0hko.

I could also see Defensive Tangela go up in usage to deal with the surge of Water Types that no longer have to care about such a reliable check. Piloswine would also be used more since Poliwrath was a decent enough counter.

So many possible suspect tests...makes my head spin.

 

[Rennyjesus]

I'm actually also going to post some of my impressions! :3

• What poke could replace Poliwrath and how it would fare against the meta?

Well... Like many people I think that Golduck can be the principal replacement for Wrath... It doesn't have a kinda stellar type or bulk as Wrath but, simple water typing is also good offensively and defensively. Golduck also have mixed offensive prowess with a decent attack stat and moves like Cross Chop, Waterfall, Ice Punch and Zen Headbutt, heck even has Priority on Aqua Jet and some nice support moves like Hypnosis, Yawn, Light Screen and Encore. Also, Golduck can still work without item even if it will really suffer a lot more than Poliwrath receiving them.

As a Knock Off absorber from things Like Pawniard, I would use something like Swalot or Evio Trubbish with Sticky Hold

Trubbish:
0 Atk Trubbish Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 112-136 (48.4 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Trubbish: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO (It was the only way that I could use to represent Sticky Hold Eviolite Trubbish)
252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Trubbish: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Trubbish: 70-84 (23 - 27.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Swalot:
68 Atk Swalot Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 110-130 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 132+ Def Swalot: 99-117 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off vs. 240 HP / 132+ Def Swalot: 81-96 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- 54.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Of those two, I would use Trubbish because of Drain Punch and the possibility of using Hazards to help, even if is passive as heck...

• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Poliwrath not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?

Increased: Pawniard, Mightyena, Barbaracle, Simipour, Piloswine directly and Monferno, Magmar, Croagunk and Timburr as checks for Dark Spam and Boosted Barbaracle. Also Scarf Raichu and Zebstrika will be needed for Boosted Barbaracle.
Decreased: Jumpluff, Grumpig, Articuno, Kadabra.

Pawniard and Mightyena will run over the tier with Dark Spam like Barbaracle spamming attacks after a Shell Smash. Piloswine will have one less check which will make it even better at bulky attacking and setting rocks. Also Simipour can spam Hydro Pump with ease, making even Specs a valid option.
Then, Grumpig and Kadabra will have a hard time againt the huge rise on Dark Spam, Jumpluff will have one less thing to scare and also Articuno will have trouble against Iron Head on Pawniard.

• Which spreads could change for those pokes that usually checks or counter Poliwrath?

Like many people already said, Zen Headbutt Carracosta, Aerial Ace Barbaracle, Grass Knot Simipour. Also, Roselia could use a little bit less invesment on Special Defense and use enough to OHKO Simipour with Giga Drain (88 SpA + SR are required for that OHKO, 24 SpA for OHKO on Physical Solid Rock Carracosta and )

• Which kind of playstyles could be affected by a Poliwrath ban?

I Guess Balance and Rain will be the most affected. Also kinda Stallish teams that were reliant on hazard stacking and shuffling with Resttalk Circle Throw will suffer.

• Why is this change probable in the actual metagame?

It could be happening based on NU usage, but at the same time, NU usage of Poliwrath should get lower now that Sneasel got out from NU... or it could be even worst, getting Poli onto RU with Sneasel, which means that it could be a lot of time until we get it again...

• Poliwrath moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

Besides Golduck and maybe Trubbish rising, I don't see anything on NU that would get the drop because of Poli!

So... That's what I personally think... :3

See ya guys!

 

[Rennyjesus]

Well Guys, Sorry about the delay on getting a new poké this week but I was terribly busy and having huge issues with my Internet connection...

However, here we go! Our New "What If" Question is:

What would change if Crustle got Dropped from NU thanks to a Low NU usage?

Actual Sub Questions:

• What could be the best Crustle Set in PU, and which other niches could Crustle fill with other secondary sets?
• How it would fare Crustle against the actual meta?
  
• Crustle could be banned because of being terribly broken for PU?
  
• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Crustle dropping to PU?, Which could be their niches now?
• Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Crustle?
• Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Crustle in PU?
• Getting Crustle onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

Thus "What If" is based on the fact that Crustle Usage is getting lower every month, and the higher you go onto Ladder, the less Crustle usage you will see (just have 3,7 % usage on NU 1630 and only 2,26 % usage on NU 1760) thanks to a not so hot defensive typing, being taunt bait against faster threats due to a pity base 45 Speed and not being able to deal easily with top threats like Xatu, Archeops, Mesprit, Uxie and Lanturn (Xatu can bounce back Hazards, Archeops can OHKO after SR even at Defeatist Range with Head Smash and Choice Scarf Versions will outspeed even after one Shell Smash, Uxie Can't be OHKO'ed reliably even after SR damage by a +2 X-Scissor and Lanturn can threaten with a Super Effective Scald, with that burn chance that will screw Crustle completely and Scarf Mesprit will beat any non White Herb set with STAB Psychic).

Let's the discussion begin!
P.D.: Thanks Ztstaffo and ExplosiveChaos for your complete answers and also everyone else for your discussion!

 

[noobcubed]

Crustle + Pawniard + Spinblocker (probably NP Misdreavus) would become a very standard hyper-offense core, somewhat like DeoSharp and latterly SkarmSharp (after Deoxys-S got the banhammer) in OU. Golem usage would tumble (maybe to FU!) as Crustle can do pretty much all the same things but also provide Spikes.

A Shell Smash set is walled by Poliwrath and therefore, due to the insane Poliwrath centralisation in the tier, not too hot.

 

[ExplosiveChaos]

• What could be the best Crustle Set in PU, and which other niches could Crustle fill with other secondary sets?

The best set would be hands down Hazard stacking Crustle. With some good defenses, it can take a hit and set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes quite easily. What makes Crustle so dangerous is that after one Shell Smash, it can beat every single common defogger in PU, and can even kill Bold 252 Def Pelipper with 3 hits of Rock Blast. The only defogger that would give it a lot of trouble would be Vibrava. A Shell Smash set will be completely outclassed by Barbaracle or even Carracosta because of their better offensive stats and arguably better movepool.

• How it would fare Crustle against the actual meta?

Right now? It would face a lot of trouble with Poliwrath, the Groudon-Primal of PU. What is really scary though is that Poliwrath has a high chance of leaving making Crustle much more efficient. Crustle would do generally well but has to be wary of the many fast Electric-types that roam PU. It may even get a little ignored (although I doubt it) because Piloswine is so integrated in the metagame that it will be hard for some people to get away from Piloswine. But the thing is that Crustle's only job is to set up Spikes and SR, and it can do that so easily and so well.

• Crustle could be banned because of being terribly broken for PU?

I feel like Crustle would be banned. Because it is broken? No. Because it would be the new Garbador of PU. Being able to stack multiple hazards and able to kill common defoggers, Crustle could become over-centralizing in PU and would make Hazard Stacking take over PU. Maybe the metagame will adjust enough to make Crustle only a good Pokemon, but that is hard to believe especially if Poliwrath leaves.

• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Crustle dropping to PU? Which could be their niches now?

Call me crazy, but I feel like Vibrava may have some more usage and viability. It can take hits from Crustle with Roost, take care of Crustle, and resists or is immune to any hazard Crustle tries to plant throughout the game. I guess Crustle could run HP Ice for Vibrava, but that would mean that the usual Defoggers that he can take care of are a problem again. Except for that, Misdreavus could have even more viability because it can shut down Crustle completely with Taunt and Will-o-Wisp. The last Pokemon that could get less usage / viability would be the -pede family. Right now the stars of HO, they would be outclassed by Crustle. Why? Because they can only place one type of instant damage hazard (Spikes). Toxic Spikes is sometimes helpful, yes, but HO usually doesn't expect to take hit after hit with each Pokemon for Toxic Spikes to do any damage. Stealth Rock would do some good instant so that HO can KO teams so much faster.

• Which spreads could change for common PU threats to now deal with Crustle?

I feel that there is going to be no difference in spreads for Pokemon. I feel that there isn't going to be any changes in the spreads because Crustle doesn't have a glaring weakness. His typing makes it so he doesn't have many resistances and has a few 2x effectives, but there isn't any 4x effective weaknesses which means that Pokemon could just use that their STAB or coverage moves already to deal as much damage.

• Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Crustle in PU?

This is a no-brainer. Crustle will make Hazard Stacking so popular and deadly and will also make HO more viable because it is a able to set up two types of damaging Hazards with Custab Berry and Sturdy.

• Getting Crustle onto PU could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?

I feel like Klang could rise into PU if Crustle is used enough. Crustle would become easy set-up fodder for Klang, and Klang is already a good Pokemon. The only reason I feel it is in FU is because it is just not seen much and a little underrated. I don't know what will drop from NU because there isn't any Pokemon in NU that only is used because of Crustle.

Relevant Calcs

Crustle Attacks:
+2 252 Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 294-348 (91 - 107.7%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO
Crustle Checks:
+2 252 Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Vibrava: 108-126 (35.5 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Raiza]

Crustle is a Pokemon really similiar to one we got already, Dwebble(ofc it's its pre evolution lol). It would act mainly as a Suicide Lead along with Custap Berry and as a Shell Smash sweeper. First of all, the main consequence will be that Dwebble will be no more worth using as Crustle is just plain better, i guess it has lower speed but Dwebble is still blocked completely by Taunt users so it wouldn't matter regarding being an effective suicide lead. Hazard stacking teams kinda miss a bulky setter that can actually set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes, while it is also able to deal with Defog users such as Vibrava, Pelipper, and Vullaby(basically the most relevant ones), so I think a Crustle drop will affect this specific playstyle in a good manner. But I don't want to focus on that point, because I think the most threatening set this can run is the Shell Smash one, and as far as Poliwrath going I would consider this one of the main powerhouses in the tier. Crustle's high defense allows it to set up on a decent plethora of physical attackers(it also has Sturdy in emergences), but the main glue of the set is the Bug-typing along with a strong X-Scissor STAB, which will allow Crustle to break through Tangela, the best stop for physical attackers we have atm, with some prior damage, so I could see this being problematic into mid-game, to also create cores with other physical attackers and late-game cleaners that appreciate the removal of physical walls.

 

[ExplosiveChaos]

Crustle + Pawniard + Spinblocker (probably NP Misdreavus) would become a very standard hyper-offense core, somewhat like DeoSharp and latterly SkarmSharp (after Deoxys-S got the banhammer) in OU. Golem usage would tumble (maybe to FU!) as Crustle can do pretty much all the same things but also provide Spikes.

A Shell Smash set is walled by Poliwrath and therefore, due to the insane Poliwrath centralisation in the tier, not too hot.

This would be true if Poliwrath wasn't leaving PU. But Poliwrath has a pretty big chance of leaving PU.

Crustle is a Pokemon really similiar to one we got already, Dwebble(ofc it's its pre evolution lol). It would act mainly as a Suicide Lead along with Custap Berry and as a Shell Smash sweeper. First of all, the main consequence will be that Dwebble will be no more worth using as Crustle is just plain better, i guess it has lower speed but Dwebble is still blocked completely by Taunt users so it wouldn't matter regarding being an effective suicide lead. Hazard stacking teams kinda miss a bulky setter that can actually set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes, while it is also able to deal with Defog users such as Vibrava, Pelipper, and Vullaby(basically the most relevant ones), so I think a Crustle drop will affect this specific playstyle in a good manner. But I don't want to focus on that point, because I think the most threatening set this can run is the Shell Smash one, and as far as Poliwrath going I would consider this one of the main powerhouses in the tier. Crustle's high defense allows it to set up on a decent plethora of physical attackers(it also has Sturdy in emergences), but the main glue of the set is the Bug-typing along with a strong X-Scissor STAB, which will allow Crustle to break through Tangela, the best stop for physical attackers we have atm, with some prior damage, so I could see this being problematic into mid-game, to also create cores with other physical attackers and late-game cleaners that appreciate the removal of physical walls.

But what will make Crustle better than Barbaracle or Carracosta? Barbaracle has X-Scissor which would still break through Tangela, a better ability for Offensive Shell Smash (Tough Claws does so much damage) and has better Attack. Even the defenses of Barbaracle is nothing to laugh at. All of this makes Barbaracle an arguably better offensive SS user. In the defensive department, Carracosta can deal with Tangela, Quilladin, and other bulky Grass-types with Ice Beam, has even higher defenses, and has higher Attack. The only niche I guess Crustle would have as an SS user is a defensive SS user that is able to outspeed some Pokemon Carracosta can't and can break through Roselia.

 

[Raiza]

But what will make Crustle better than Barbaracle or Carracosta? Barbaracle has X-Scissor which would still break through Tangela, a better ability for Offensive Shell Smash (Tough Claws does so much damage) and has better Attack. Even the defenses of Barbaracle is nothing to laugh at. All of this makes Barbaracle an arguably better offensive SS user. In the defensive department, Carracosta can deal with Tangela, Quilladin, and other bulky Grass-types with Ice Beam, has even higher defenses, and has higher Attack. The only niche I guess Crustle would have as an SS user is a defensive SS user that is able to outspeed some Pokemon Carracosta can't and can break through Roselia.

Crustle has better speed than Carracosta, which is fundamental to outspeed Pokemon such as Jumpluff, while going all in with an Adamant nature, something Carracosta can't do unless you run Jolly. A defensive Shell Smash set would just blow this niche away so I don't think it's worth running really as there would be better bulky set up sweeper anyway. STAB X-Scissor will allow Crustle to slightly hit harder, other than Tangela, Pokemon such as Torterra. But the main point is that Crustle can reserve a moveslot to Earthquake, which will allow it to get past Special Tank Poliwrath with some prior damage, which Carracosta can't do, especially if you run Ice Beam, which is still very niche and makes it give up a valid STAB move. I don't think it would be better than Barbaracle but I would think using it over Carracosta.

 

[Akir]

If Crustle moves to PU, then I am gonna throw away Golem on so many of my offensive teams. A bulky hazard setter that is NOT weak to Piloswine and fits on offense? Yes please!

Crustle has enough bulk to be a hazard lead without being a suicide lead all the time. That means that offense just got a considerably important boost. Custap leads can now set up spikes instead of just exploding...and exploding is nice but sometimes I would rather have a good layer of spikes. Homestly im excited by this prospect...this is a huge boon to offense.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Well guys, since the Tiershift is coming in a few days, let's cotinue to discuss Crustle as a possibility on PU, before getting a new Poké!

I Know that if you hate hazards, you will love the next discussion! :p

See ya!

 

[Rennyjesus]

Well Guys, Sorry about the delay on getting a new poké again, but my Grandad died a few days ago and I wasn't feeling good at all...

However, here we go! Our New "What If" Question is:

What would change if Roselia got Banned from PU?

Actual Sub Questions:​

• Which Poké could fill Roselia's niches as a bulky Grass type, and as a Spikes stacker?
• How it would fare its replacement in the meta?
• Which pokes would have increased or decreased viability thanks to Roselia not being on PU?, Which could be their niches now?
• Roselia moving could motivate some additional rises from FU or drops from NU?
• Which Pokés now will run another moves since they doesn't need to deal with Roselia?
• Which kind of playstyles could be favored by Roselia leaving PU?
• Is a Roselia Ban probable after the possible ban of Carracosta and Barbaracle?

Well, since it's pretty probable that Costa and Barba will get the BanHammer sooner or later, for some people, Roselia can feel a little bit overcentralizing, considering that Garbodor was banned a few months ago, not only because it was bulky or relatively fast, but because it could get a bunch of Hazards in the enemy field without having a lot of defoggers or spinners to use and because of that, it could be considered not healthy for the meta.

See ya guys!