Tera Raid Set Theorycrafting for Pokemon DLC Mons

[doipy hooves]

Right now I am mostly asking to myself: assuming that you dont need to shed one of your dual typing for better matchup against coverage, would there ever a reason where sametype tera would be better than stellar tera in raids?

I mentioned it in the main SV thread, but I think the Stellar type is actually a suboptimal pick in raids, despite it having infinite boosts specifically for them. This may be because Stellar doesn't really count as a type for STAB, so it never hits shields for the maximum rate when using moves with a matching tera type, not even with Stellar Tera Blast (which is already only hitting for the 1.2x non-STAB tera rate instead of 2x). Basically, a Stellar mon will always do less damage against shields than the equivalent real STAB tera would, because Stellar always faces the non-matching damage rate on shields, which for most 7 stars is a difference of 30% vs 70%.
(For comparison, base game 6 stars have 20/35/75, Kitakami has 30/55/85, and Blueberry has 40/60/80, so Stellar has a closer showing in its home DLC.)

EDIT: Stellar Tera Blast does hit for the matching tera type rate. See post 54 below.

On the other hand, stellar still boosts off-type moves, matches the 2x tera STAB multiplier without shields, and at least hits for the tera multiplier instead of the non-tera multiplier, but it's a pretty noticeable drawback during the phase of the raid that you need raw damage to get through. I think it's still worth using for budget Arceus and Contrary mons, but it means Stellar is not as straightforward a pick as to invalidate regular tera types like most were expecting. I think it might be a new noob trap to watch out for on random mons, and also Terapagos may similarly be kind of meh. Personally this solidifies my decision to not build a Tera Stellar Azumarill.

Comparisons by mdash (Arceus vs Ghost Ninetales-Alola using SE Stellar Tera Blast, SE Stellar Dark Judgment, SE Tera Dark Judgment):

 

[Worldie]

I mentioned it in the main SV thread, but I think the Stellar type is actually a suboptimal pick in raids, despite it having infinite boosts specifically for them. This may be because Stellar doesn't really count as a type for STAB, so it never hits shields for the maximum rate when using moves with a matching tera type, not even with Stellar Tera Blast (which is already only hitting for the 1.2x non-STAB tera rate instead of 2x). Basically, a Stellar mon will always do less damage against shields than the equivalent real STAB tera would, because Stellar always faces the non-matching damage rate on shields, which for most 7 stars is a difference of 30% vs 70%.

I read that post, and I do agree that for offensive pokemon you're definitely more likely to just keep whatever.

I do however think that for "general utility" pokemon whose main role is being support with off-stab moves while leveraging their good defensive type (aka, 90% of the mons used for 7* that arent straight dps), Stellar should still be a solid choice.

Ofc this comes with the very slight issue of how complicate it is to get Stellar Shards in first place...

 

[flamewizzy21]

I read that post, and I do agree that for offensive pokemon you're definitely more likely to just keep whatever.

I do however think that for "general utility" pokemon whose main role is being support with off-stab moves while leveraging their good defensive type (aka, 90% of the mons used for 7* that arent straight dps), Stellar should still be a solid choice.

Ofc this comes with the very slight issue of how complicate it is to get Stellar Shards in first place...

Support pokemon rarely get the opportunity to terastalize, and only do so to change to a more optimal defensive typing (since their dmg output is minimal). Stellar tera provides almost nothing of value for those pokemon beyond a single instance of boosting dmg of Acid Spray/Chill water/Mud Slap.

I do agree that Stellar Tera is mostly useless as far as tera raids are concerned. If you actually terastalize in a tera raid, it is because you are spending long enough that you need to really batter a tera shield over a longer time. The one-off damage boost of stellar tera is terrible for this. Given how most raid pokemon are optimized to tackle the one threat in front of them, stellar tera is mostly strictly inferior to a typical STAB terastal for the vast majority of pokemon.

The one case where Stellar isn’t garbage in Tera raids would be if you want to force a Contrary pokemon to fight a raid boss for which it has suboptimal typing, so you can get the boost from Stellar Tera Blast. That is still forcing a square peg into a circular hole, tho.

 

[doipy hooves]

I do agree that Stellar Tera is mostly useless as far as tera raids are concerned. If you actually terastalize in a tera raid, it is because you are spending long enough that you need to really batter a tera shield over a longer time. The one-off damage boost of stellar tera is terrible for this. Given how most raid pokemon are optimized to tackle the one threat in front of them, stellar tera is mostly strictly inferior to a typical STAB terastal for the vast majority of pokemon.

The damage boost is specifically not a one-time use in raids.

As a correction, it was noted by Anubis that Stellar Tera Blast does hit for the maximum damage rate against shields, so the shield just goes off whether your displayed tera type matches your move type. It's just that the example used meant that a 2x STAB attack at 55% damage was still more powerful than a 1.2x STAB attack doing 85% damage, but it will be noticeably stronger if the difference between rates is higher. This mainly still only helps the Contrary users, since lowering your stats with every use is not great for prolonged offense, but it does mean that a SE Stellar Tera Blast is their best offensive option by far.

EDIT: Though if you have some stats set up and the boss is going to reset them anyway, maybe Stellar Tera Blasting isn't a bad nuclear option if you can't hit super effectively with your base STAB (doing 2x with tera STAB vs a SE 2*1.2 stellar STAB). Ironically Azumarill might be a viable user with Belly Drum...

Starting from +6 attack (x4) and the same conditions, a neutral tera STAB (2x) vs. Stellar Tera Blast (2.4x but losing 1 atk stage every turn) turns out better for Stellar Tera Blast until after 3 moves. Roughly combining the multipliers, you start out with consistent 8x vs decreasing 9.6x, which drops to 8.4x, 7.2x, and 6x as you drop Attack stages. After 3 uses the total so far is 25.2x vs 24x, and then the 4th use becomes 31.2x vs 32x. So I think a Stellar Azumarill might be viable in this specific case where your best option is to hit neutrally anyway, and if the boss will reset stats before you hit diminishing returns. Otherwise I think even just +2 setup becomes weaker by turn 2. There is also the fact that 100BP Tera Blast is stronger than Azumarill's other STAB options anyway.

 

[Vengeance417]

Support pokemon rarely get the opportunity to terastalize, and only do so to change to a more optimal defensive typing (since their dmg output is minimal). Stellar tera provides almost nothing of value for those pokemon beyond a single instance of boosting dmg of Acid Spray/Chill water/Mud Slap.

I do agree that Stellar Tera is mostly useless as far as tera raids are concerned. If you actually terastalize in a tera raid, it is because you are spending long enough that you need to really batter a tera shield over a longer time. The one-off damage boost of stellar tera is terrible for this. Given how most raid pokemon are optimized to tackle the one threat in front of them, stellar tera is mostly strictly inferior to a typical STAB terastal for the vast majority of pokemon.

The one case where Stellar isn’t garbage in Tera raids would be if you want to force a Contrary pokemon to fight a raid boss for which it has suboptimal typing, so you can get the boost from Stellar Tera Blast. That is still forcing a square peg into a circular hole, tho.

In tera raids, specifically, the amount of Tera boosts provided by Stellar is infinite, unlike in multiplayer where you only get one per move-type (one for Grass, one for Fire, etc). That's why some of us have been saying you may as well throw Stellar onto support mons with multiple attacking moves since even though the damage is minimal coming from a support mon, shield chip is shield chip in an online game where many players aren't knowledgeable and don't build their attackers optimally. Acid Spray mons in particular appreciate having that move boosted without having to always commit to Tera Poison.

 

[Worldie]

Support pokemon rarely get the opportunity to terastalize, and only do so to change to a more optimal defensive typing (since their dmg output is minimal).

I actually disagree. Most of the support mons who have access to Chilling water / Snarl / Mud-Slap / Acid Spray etc get to Terastalize pretty quickly since outside a turn used for screens (if anything) you tend to spam that move. And outside of Chilling Water, most of the time they don't actually have stab on the move and wouldn't necessarly want to change the type to it.
The extra chip gained by tera, while not impressive, never hurts, expecially if it helps breaking shields on 7*.

That said, we are talking of Stellar Tera which is obnoxious a f to get in first place, so it's not something I'd "go out of my way to get", but fe if i was drowning in shards, pokemon i use for 6* and that have had use for 7* like H-goodra would much rather keep their original defensive type than terastalize in poison type.

 

[Terimas]

Personally I disagree on putting Stellar Tera on support mons. The boosted damage on moves like Snarl or Acid Spray will be negligible. Meanwhile, the amount of time you will lose to the extra long move animation when using Tera boosted moves will be a major detriment.

I'd rather be able to spam my support moves fast, than get this extremely minor damage boost for my moves.

 

[flamewizzy21]

I actually disagree. Most of the support mons who have access to Chilling water / Snarl / Mud-Slap / Acid Spray etc get to Terastalize pretty quickly since outside a turn used for screens (if anything) you tend to spam that move. And outside of Chilling Water, most of the time they don't actually have stab on the move and wouldn't necessarly want to change the type to it.
The extra chip gained by tera, while not impressive, never hurts, expecially if it helps breaking shields on 7*.

That said, we are talking of Stellar Tera which is obnoxious a f to get in first place, so it's not something I'd "go out of my way to get", but fe if i was drowning in shards, pokemon i use for 6* and that have had use for 7* like H-goodra would much rather keep their original defensive type than terastalize in poison type.

I mean Chilling water / Snarl / Mud-Slap / Acid Spray are the main cases where a support WILL get the opportunity to tera. In those scenarios, the marginal benefit of Stellar tera is solely the bonus damage you get from one of those moves. And those moves are usually used for secondary effect, not damage. So this is rarely supereffective (except by luck), at boosted 60 BP, on a pokemon with 0 SpAtk EV, no spatk nature, no dmg item, no boosting, and usually non STAB. Acid spray is the only one that gives real chip.

For supports, the marginal damage provided is small, unless the types of everything happen to line up anyway (which stellar does not change). Like just the other day, I used Tera poison venonat vs some tera grass 6*, and the multiple acid sprays onto shields did maybe 10% of the shield worth of damage across 3-4 terastal acid sprays. While venonat lacks big firepower, it was a rare case where I did get the right matchup of 2x tera type matching the move into a supereffective hit vs shield. And the damage is still miniscule relative to the offensive pokemon that someone brought specifically to nuke the raid boss with supereffective dmg. Because Venonat’s job isn’t to do damage, but to amplify the team’s damage.

If you get repeated dmg boost in tera raid, there might be some more value, but it would be at most a minor optimization. A very expensive one.

 

[flamewizzy21]

Haven't had the chance to play DLC 2 yet, so this is just pure guessing. On the topic of Alcremie as a general support, I think the only two necessary moves it needs to succeed would be Decorate and Recover for self-sustain. Because of that, I think it's possible to approach building a set with it in two different ways.
Alcremie @ Terrain Extender
Bold or Calm Nature
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD or 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Tera Type: Stellar
- Decorate
- Recover
- Helping Hand
- Misty Terrain
The full support approach. Aroma Veil prevents Taunt (and Torment, Attract, Encore, etc.) messing with both Alcremie and its teammates from setting up (apart from the ability wipe), and Misty Terrain protects the team from status—this basically makes the setup phase generally foolproof in raids. Other moves that could replace Helping Hand or Misty Terrain seem a bit limited due to the movepool—there's Charm, Baby-Doll Eyes, Aromatic Mist, Fake Tears, and probably some Fairy-type move if the ability wipe is too annoying. I know there was a theoretical set with Alcremie that has Fake Tears earlier in the thread, but it becomes useless when the shield is active.

Alcremie @ Pixie Plate / Shell Bell
Modest Nature
Ability: Aroma Veil / Sweet Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Tera Type: Stellar
- Decorate
- Recover
- Draining Kiss / Alluring Voice / Stored Power
- Psych Up
A hybrid support-offense set. Once it's done fully setting up a teammate with Decorate, Alcremie can copy their stat boosts with Psych Up and contribute to dealing damage itself, while also being able to still sustain itself with both priority Draining Kiss and Recover. It's possible to go with Alluring Voice or Dazzling Gleam with Shell Bell for more immediate damage if not going first isn't important, or potentially a 260 BP Stored Power if Alcremie copies a full +6/+6 teammate. Not sure if this would be ideal for raids in general, but I guess you can potentially have two fully primed attackers in 4 turns instead of 6?

Back on the topic of very good raiding sets, Alcremie is cracked. You can run either 252/0-/252+/0/0/4 or 252/0-/0/0/252+/0, with Sitrus/Covert Cloak, and either ability. Best moves:
-Decorate
-Helping Hand
-Fake Tears
-Entrainment/Light Screen/Charm/MistyTerrain

I tried it, and it is fantastic.

Another one I’m experimenting with is Contrary Malamar with
-Fake tears
-Skill Swap
-TopsyTurvy/Taunt
-Helping Hand/Reflect/LightScreen
Giving a pokemon contrary lets you turn something into better lurantis, spamming LeafStorm / Overheat / Draco Meteor with an actual SpAtk stat. It just requires coordination. Topsy Turvy has a lot of potential, but I’m still waiting to see it actually work out. It might work to help you keep tempo if the raid boss clears buffs (and ability), so a teammate can continue, get the -2, and Malamar flips it back, as Contrary comes back online. This all requires some coordination and preplanning tho.

For Smeargle set, I recommend Decorate, Simple Beam, GravApple (or related)/AcidSpray (or related). Last move needs to be something for survivability, because his stats are ass. 252/0-/252+/0/0/4 and 252/0-/0/0/252+/4 are the only viable spreads because of it. I was contemplating bringing Obstruct from SwSh, but i don’t think that move is allowed in gen 9.

 

[Worldie]

Another one I’m experimenting with is Contrary Malamar with
-Fake tears
-Skill Swap
-TopsyTurvy/Taunt
-Helping Hand/Reflect/LightScreen
Giving a pokemon contrary lets you turn something into better lurantis, spamming LeafStorm / Overheat / Draco Meteor with an actual SpAtk stat. It just requires coordination. Topsy Turvy has a lot of potential, but I’m still waiting to see it actually work out. It might work to help you keep tempo if the raid boss clears buffs (and ability), so a teammate can continue, get the -2, and Malamar flips it back, as Contrary comes back online. This all requires some coordination and preplanning tho.

Hold up, does skill swap Contrary work on bosses? Would make all these obnoxious superbuffing raids much less tragic, kinda like one of the common cheese is skill swapping Weak Armor with Trick Room Polteageist

 

[flamewizzy21]

Hold up, does skill swap Contrary work on bosses? Would make all these obnoxious superbuffing raids much less tragic, kinda like one of the common cheese is skill swapping Weak Armor with Trick Room Polteageist

Yeah. The benefit of skill swapping contrary is blocking buffs after taunt wears off through shields. The downside is that your team can’t use debuffs, and you lose contrary (so you can’t give it to a teammate). This all makes Malamar hard to use in general, but a very hard counter to specific bosses.

 

[Worldie]

Yeah. The benefit of skill swapping contrary is blocking buffs after taunt wears off through shields. The downside is that your team can’t use debuffs, and you lose contrary (so you can’t give it to a teammate). This all makes Malamar hard to use in general, but a very hard counter to specific bosses.

To be honest most of the times the only debuffs applied by allies are incidental procs and often not even then, so I definitely should bump up my own Malamar just for this.

 

[flamewizzy21]

To be honest most of the times the only debuffs applied by allies are incidental procs and often not even then, so I definitely should bump up my own Malamar just for this.

This also applies to Malamar’s own Fake Tears, so sequencing is important. My point is Malamar has a lot of great tools, but is so far pretty hard to deploy without coordination.

 

[Worldie]

This also applies to Malamar’s own Fake Tears, so sequencing is important. My point is Malamar has a lot of great tools, but is so far pretty hard to deploy without coordination.

The galaxybrain is replacing Fake Tears with Swagger.

Also this learns Acupressure now? I'm even more sold.

 

[flamewizzy21]

I did some testing, and have info about Smeargle, with respect to new mechanics:
1) Sketch in raid copies a move temporarily, like Mimic. You will lose the learned move when leaving/winning the raid.
2) Smeargle cannot relearn sketched moves via Remember Move mechanic. Smeargle also can’t pass sketched moves (EDIT: TO other smeargle) via Mirror herb transfer, nor breeding smeargle with a sketched move.
3) Within raids, smeargle is okay. Because your bulk is so bad, you can’t continuously put out support moves like safer support pokemon. Unless you yourself are covered by a support. In my case, I went for simple beam grav apple vs palkia. The most I got out was -2 Def, stat wipe, -4 Def (including a free turn as shield breaks). So.. very limited. You really want a teammate with dmg reduction to use smeagle. Also , the 4/0/252+/0/252/0 someone proposed earlier is pure fantasy. You NEED the HP and singular defense investment for it to work at all. I suspect you really need a move to reduce dmg, like chilling water (or something stronger?)

 

[R_N]

2) Smeargle cannot relearn sketched moves via Remember Move mechanic. Smeargle also can’t pass sketched moved via Mirror herb transfer, nor breeding smeargle with a sketched move.

Wait that's a pretty significant change for Smeargle isn't it? It's entire breeding shtick was passing around moves in the Ground egg group with ease.

I suppose with the Mirror Herb mechanic that's not really a needed thing anymore, but it's pretty shocking that they'd have it not able to pass things at all

 

[flamewizzy21]

Wait that's a pretty significant change for Smeargle isn't it? It's entire breeding shtick was passing around moves in the Ground egg group with ease.

I suppose with the Mirror Herb mechanic that's not really a needed thing anymore, but it's pretty shocking that they'd have it not able to pass things at all

I mean Smeargle itself can’t learn moves by breeding. ie Nothing new or lost vs before. I just investigated in case new mechanics added convenience for smeargle in any way.

 

[reaverz]

2) Smeargle cannot relearn sketched moves via Remember Move mechanic. Smeargle also can’t pass sketched moved via Mirror herb transfer, nor breeding smeargle with a sketched move.

I just tested the latter parts myself and Smeargle seems to be able to pass moves just fine. I had one Sketch Night Shade and a Hoothoot was able to learn it from the Smeargle via Mirror Herb method. Additionally, I had a male Smeargle knowing Wish breed with a female Raichu and the Pichu offspring hatched knowing Wish.

Was your testing in regards to whether Smeargle itself can hatch with moves other than Sketch or learning a move if it holds a Mirror Herb, rather than whether it could still pass moves to other Pokémon?

 

[a blue banana]

Back on the topic of very good raiding sets, Alcremie is cracked. You can run either 252/0-/252+/0/0/4 or 252/0-/0/0/252+/0, with Sitrus/Covert Cloak, and either ability. Best moves:
-Decorate
-Helping Hand
-Fake Tears
-Entrainment/Light Screen/Charm/MistyTerrain

I tried it, and it is fantastic.

I don't think a support Alcremie would need a Sitrus Berry in most raids because it already has Recover to heal itself. The overall bulk provided by the 252 HP / 252+ Def EV spread should be enough for Alcremie to support its teammates in most 5*/6* raids without needing to heal itself too often.

 

[flamewizzy21]

I don't think a support Alcremie would need a Sitrus Berry in most raids because it already has Recover to heal itself. The overall bulk provided by the 252 HP / 252+ Def EV spread should be enough for Alcremie to support its teammates in most 5*/6* raids without needing to heal itself too often.

Recover is a terrible move for raids unless you are playing solo, and the whole point of Alcremie is to run support. Recover costs a turn and a moveslot, both of which are very valuable on Alcremie. With Sitrus, I never need to use Recover, and at most heal cheer once to support team without wasting a moveslot. Sitrus (as opposed to Covert Cloak) is preferred especially for harder hitting matchups (or vs Poison types) so you can avoid losing tempo from using heal cheer.

I just tested the latter parts myself and Smeargle seems to be able to pass moves just fine. I had one Sketch Night Shade and a Hoothoot was able to learn it from the Smeargle via Mirror Herb method. Additionally, I had a male Smeargle knowing Wish breed with a female Raichu and the Pichu offspring hatched knowing Wish.

Was your testing in regards to whether Smeargle itself can hatch with moves other than Sketch or learning a move if it holds a Mirror Herb, rather than whether it could still pass moves to other Pokémon?

I’m only talking about passing moves TO smeargle. Point being mirror herb and move reminder do not add new methods to relearn sketched moves.

 

[Worldie]

Recover is a terrible move for raids unless you are playing solo, and the whole point of Alcremie is to run support. Recover costs a turn and a moveslot, both of which are very valuable on Alcremie. With Sitrus, I never need to use Recover, and at most heal cheer once to support team without wasting a moveslot. Sitrus (as opposed to Covert Cloak) is preferred for matchups like Amogus, where the poison typing is not in your favor, but Sweet Veil + FakeTears/Decorate is still highly desirable.

Tbh I would disagree for 1 reason: running Recover (or similar moves) lets you freely run Covert Cloak, which is a much better item with all the random defense drops and status running around from enemy attacks.
Doesn't necessarly apply to every raid, but I've found liking much more a Covert Cloak + recovery move over Sitrus/Lefties/Similar items + a extra utility move simply since I don't have to deal with RNG bullshit.
Would be different if the heal from Heal Cheer was consistent but as we know, sometimes it barely heals for anything...

 

[R_N]

Sometimes spending a turn healing yourself can be a big turning point in a raid. It's consistent, high level healing that doesn't burn a cheer and will be there for you if you get to a low point after the berry is eaten. There's usually a turn where you're not needing to do an immedieat support move anyway.

 

[flamewizzy21]

Tbh I would disagree for 1 reason: running Recover (or similar moves) lets you freely run Covert Cloak, which is a much better item with all the random defense drops and status running around from enemy attacks.
Doesn't necessarly apply to every raid, but I've found liking much more a Covert Cloak + recovery move over Sitrus/Lefties/Similar items + a extra utility move simply since I don't have to deal with RNG bullshit.
Would be different if the heal from Heal Cheer was consistent but as we know, sometimes it barely heals for anything...

I still argue Recover is a terrible move for supports. A support’s main job is to support the team. If you use Recover, sure you survive better, but you are not doing your main job (eg you are not making progress for the team). If you need to use Recover once, that is strictly inferior to Sitrus + low roll heal cheer, because heal cheer helps the whole team keep tempo, and Recover does not. If you would have wanted to use Recover more than once (which is where Recover’s healing will outpace), then I argue that you seriously need to reconsider your choice of supporr, because no support should be taking 2+ turns for itself with moves that give zero benefit to the team. This is the same deal with other self-moves like Iron defense and Amnesia.

You might argue for it on a support that struggles to fill out 4 support moveslots, but Alcremie has 8 good support moves. Alcremie in particular: If you are dying to special/physical damage, you should have put up light screen/charm, both of which also aid the team.

One item I forgot to mention for Alcremie is Ability shield, which is basically mandatory vs Amogus, and very beneficial vs Brelloom.

 

[Vengeance417]

I take it back. Smeargle sucks outside of very specific builds with coordinated teams.

Yeah, self-recovery moves only delay the outcome of the raid when a support should be trying to make said raid finish as quick and efficiently as possible. I’d argue even Life Dew is kind of a mid option even though it heals everyone. If you’re capable of mitigating the defensive and offensive stats of the raid through moves like Acid Spray, Screech, Charm, Eerie Impulse, Skitter Smack, etc do you really need something like Life Dew taking up a moveslot when Heal Cheer is right there?

I will say that self-defense boosting moves like Iron Defense have niche uses (Body Press, for example) but if it’s just to make yourself bulkier and nothing else, it’s a waste of time.

Use Tentacruel. Baller support mon.

 

[Worldie]

I warned you, infinite moveset doesn't do much when your bulk is non existant and you have to spend most turns healing