Honest to God, you take away Rage Fist from the Apes and what do they do? Not much. They're infinitely easier to actually check without fear of running into a 150+ Ghost move.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Nobody has ever used or will ever use Primeape in OU except for unfunny gimmicks.
Unless Rage fist become a tutor move in a future DLC, I can't see why ban the move instead of Ape if there is a need for a ban.
I agree with you. People just tired of pecking the monkey when they should be playing around it.
Love how people were complaining about Boots last gen because their hazards weren't putting in enough work and now think Ghold is banworthy because other people's hazards are putting in too much work against them.
To prevent this from being a one liner, pretty sure Ghold will become less prominent and meta defining once the restrictive presences are dealt with and there are fewer constraints on teambuilding. Leave the cheese string alone
To prevent this from being a one liner, pretty sure Ghold will become less prominent and meta defining once the restrictive presences are dealt with and there are fewer constraints on teambuilding. Leave the cheese string alone
Consider the following: Primeape in UU. Same shit that Annih does in OU, only you can use (and it usually does) Eviolite. Like with Tera, Rage Fist has rippling effects in multiple tiers.
how exactly do you play around it? hitting it with any move that doesn't ohko makes rage fist stronger, lowering its stats isn't an option because of defiant, trying to set up on it or rely solely on residual damage doesn't work because it has taunt and bulk up. there are a lot less options to play around annihilape than nearly any other mon in the tier. if it has sub or covert cloak, even tera fairy garg loses against it (or, at the absolute best, doesn't win the matchup nearly as handily), and that's the only thing i can think of that consistently beats it. not counting chi-yu because that thing's about to get yeeted into ubers so hard it'll make shaymin-sky jealous
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Primeape is dogwater in UU lol, rage fist is a stupid move and clearly the thing that pushes Annihilape over the edge but you have to prove some serious stuff to make an argument that the move is broken and not Annihilape's use of it
Given that Primeape isn't really a problem in OU, it wouldn't really be justified to ban Rage Fist on the OU level. Even if some lower tier ends up finding it problematic, they can simply ban Primeape from that tier. Rage Fist maybe has the potential to become a systemic issue if it becomes widely distributed, but at the moment the sample size is pretty small.
If Great Tusk didn't exist I think Gholdengo would definitely be worth looking at. However, Tusk is an amazing Pokémon even outside of its ability to Spin past Dengo, so the Surfer Ghost isn't as constraining on the meta as it could be.
Plus Gholdengo isn't that insurmountable since it gets worn down naturally over the course of a match. It doesn't always run Lefties and isn't even that bulky. Dengo may have Aegislash's typing but lacks its stupidly high defenses and King's Shield.
I did rant about this guy a bit earlier, but I think the secret sauce to beating it is running Rocky Helmet Corviknight. If Ape doesn't tera, you will be doing a boatload of damage to it w/ Brave Bird so it can't setup, chip damage to it via Rocky Helmet when it does attack, and it won't be doing enough w/ Rage Fist at lower levels to KO Corv, giving it multiple opportunities to use Brave Bird + Helmet Chip to Ape. If Corv loses, its w/e, you can swap into specs Valiant, Meowscarada, Chi-Yu, or Chien-Pao to finish it off. I don't like using Rocky Helmet Corv, as Leftovers recovery is quite nice, but beggars can't be choosers. It can also clear screens and even w/ Defiant boost, the match-up is still not fun for Ape.
I think my main issue was that I was using Pex as my Rocky Helmet mon, which has a very very bad MU vs Ape, as does Garganacl. Attempting to OHKO it is also foolish as nothing short of Band Chien-Pao or Specs Tera Fire Chi-Yu can do that. Attacking it smartly early on so it doesn't snowball its key I think to stop it from going monke.
IMO Lead sets are somewhat mid, esp if you expect it based on the opp's team structure.
(I still don't like Ape's presence in the tier as I don't like having to run Rocky Helmet Corviknight).
Skeledirge is an example of a Pokémon that wouldn't be out of place on a stall team, and usually beats Garganacl if it's running Shadow Ball. If it's running special defence, you do need to Torch Song your way up to +6 and get a SpD drop with Shadow Ball, given that you're trying to break through a special wall using resisted moves; but you do win eventually because it can't do anything back to you (you have Slack Off against Salt Cure damage, being Ghost-type protects you from Iron Defence + Body Press if it's running that combo, and the attack damage from Salt Cure is negligible despite being super-effective), so you get lots of tries to get that SpD drop. Interestingly, Skeledirge finds Garganacl easier to beat if it's Tera'd, with Rock being one of the hardest types to break through.
Using Garganacl to beat itself is very common, though, and probably my most common method of dealing with it. There's something of a self-balancing dynamic here in that the Garganacl builds that are best against other Garganacls are not the builds that are best against the tier as a whole, which means that the tendency for Garganacl to be used to counter itself also reduces its impact when used against other Pokémon.
Lol play around it. Name a consistant gameplan that doesn't account for multiple mons or mons that are getting suspected or banned rn.
Gonna wrap back around to this post.
Something I noticed in the replay is that Revival Blessing enabled yNot Mence to very recklessly lead Annihilape, let it get KO'd by Pelipper to set up Rocks, and bring it back with boosted Rage Fist (iirc the move's power doesn't reset if you die). They fact that they were able to recover from such an objectively awful play (no offense, I assume you were going monke mode on purpose) just highlights how dumb RB is if you use it as a second version of whatever Pokémon you want to bring back.
However, I think RB's impact on any given game is directly correlated to whatever Pokémon are available to abuse it with. I'm not entirely sure if the move should be suspected until all the blatantly broken things (e.g. Feesh) are out of the tier.
Just wanted to say that I can't see how Garg consistently beats Ape ... all it can do is Salt Cure and get Taunted, and of course Ape is immune to Body Press. Also want to mention that there are Ape Teras other than Water, like Fire, and Fairy I've heard of.
It's clear that tiering action on Tera didn't win because Finchinator didn't shore up the blue wall and visit Michigan.
Jokes aside, the result is disappointing, but understandable. Thanks to the mod team for running a thoughtful and fair suspect. There's not much to do now but move on and keep making the tier better. The seething and gloating over the result in this thread seems pretty childish. I get having strong feelings about the decision, but try to keep some perspective and remember that this is a game above all else. It's never that serious.
Moving on to some of the stuff on the radar:
Chi-yu has the clearest case for a ban in the post-Palafin/Bundle meta. This thing is just far too strong and oppressive with no real switch-ins outside of a few vastly inferior choices like Dachsbun or Tyranitar. Though a quick ban seems likely, it should be first on the suspect list otherwise.
With Tera sticking around, I think this is another fairly clear case for a ban. Lead and Resto Chesto are good sets, but bulky Taunt with Lefties just absolutely obliterates so many builds and is made even stronger when you can defensively Terastallize to bypass any check. Annihilape's fantastic bulk and Rage Fist means most teams, even offensive ones, have to play extremely carefully around the ape, especially if Tera is still available. Even then, there's a decent chance you are losing 2 or 3 Pokemon to deal with a well played Annihilape. This is another one I hope to see quick banned, but should be a suspect contender if not.
I was originally in favor of a Shed Tail ban, but Orthworm's suckage has changed my mind. Cyclizar is the problem as it has absolutely everything it needs to enable a bunch of ridiculous sweepers. Regenerator allows Cyclizar to pass multiple Shed Tails with little downside which is coupled with excellent support options (Taunt, Rapid Spin, Knock Off) and insane speed. Offensive options (Draco, Overheat) are really lackluster, but that doesn't matter when you can just pass a sub to anything instead. This is the final mon that I hope to see quickbanned over suspected.
Garganacl has incredible bulk, status immunity, and a wonderful move in Salt Cure. You pair all of that with the ability to Tera into any number of viable types, and Garganacl takes up a fairly uncommon position as a mostly defensive Pokemon that may warrant tiering action. All of the tools Garganacl has at its disposal allow it to take on pretty much any Pokemon in the tier, but it is quite reliant on Terastallization to do so. Though I think its still a little early now, once some other bans drop, I think Garganacl could find itself in a position where it warrants a suspect/ban.
I don't know what it is about this Pokemon, but it seems to bring out some of the absolute worst takes from people. My favorite has got to be the people who claim that Gholdengo "brought hazards back" and should stay so people can't "mindlessly remove hazards". First off, hazards have been an extremely relevant part of every generation since GSC. They are arguably least relevant in SS thanks to HDB, but HDB exist in SV too. Second, to imply that hazard removal comes with no downsides (that is, mindless) is just blatantly incorrect. Third, we find ourselves in a hazard meta that is much more akin to BW (where there aren't removal options) than SS (where there are removal options), despite the fact that there are some good removers (and HDB) this generation. Now, Gholdengo is not the only culprit here, as the increased distribution of hazards is a major factor too, but it is still quite clear that Gholdengo has shaped this metagame in a profound way.
No, I don't think Gholdengo is inherently broken, but it is an extremely centralizing force that warrants a closer look, probably even a suspect. There is no Pokemon in the tier that does its job as well as Gholdengo does its job of keeping hazards up. This kind of presence is useful for almost any type of build from HO to stall and is further backed up by Gholdengo's great stats and typing. I think a pretty obvious example of Gholdengo's influence is the dominance of Great Tusk (and Iron Treads to a lesser extent). Tusk is a top tier Pokemon for sure, but its usage is at almost 40% because its the only removal option for a lot of teams because it can spin and beat Gholdengo (sometimes). I also think Chi-Yu's imminent ban remains an X factor here, as its one of the best offensive checks to Gholdengo. Its ban could bring even more Gholdengo usage, though that remains to be seen.
Jokes aside, the result is disappointing, but understandable. Thanks to the mod team for running a thoughtful and fair suspect. There's not much to do now but move on and keep making the tier better. The seething and gloating over the result in this thread seems pretty childish. I get having strong feelings about the decision, but try to keep some perspective and remember that this is a game above all else. It's never that serious.
Moving on to some of the stuff on the radar:
Chi-yu has the clearest case for a ban in the post-Palafin/Bundle meta. This thing is just far too strong and oppressive with no real switch-ins outside of a few vastly inferior choices like Dachsbun or Tyranitar. Though a quick ban seems likely, it should be first on the suspect list otherwise.
With Tera sticking around, I think this is another fairly clear case for a ban. Lead and Resto Chesto are good sets, but bulky Taunt with Lefties just absolutely obliterates so many builds and is made even stronger when you can defensively Terastallize to bypass any check. Annihilape's fantastic bulk and Rage Fist means most teams, even offensive ones, have to play extremely carefully around the ape, especially if Tera is still available. Even then, there's a decent chance you are losing 2 or 3 Pokemon to deal with a well played Annihilape. This is another one I hope to see quick banned, but should be a suspect contender if not.
I was originally in favor of a Shed Tail ban, but Orthworm's suckage has changed my mind. Cyclizar is the problem as it has absolutely everything it needs to enable a bunch of ridiculous sweepers. Regenerator allows Cyclizar to pass multiple Shed Tails with little downside which is coupled with excellent support options (Taunt, Rapid Spin, Knock Off) and insane speed. Offensive options (Draco, Overheat) are really lackluster, but that doesn't matter when you can just pass a sub to anything instead. This is the final mon that I hope to see quickbanned over suspected.
Garganacl has incredible bulk, status immunity, and a wonderful move in Salt Cure. You pair all of that with the ability to Tera into any number of viable types, and Garganacl takes up a fairly uncommon position as a mostly defensive Pokemon that may warrant tiering action. All of the tools Garganacl has at its disposal allow it to take on pretty much any Pokemon in the tier, but it is quite reliant on Terastallization to do so. Though I think its still a little early now, once some other bans drop, I think Garganacl could find itself in a position where it warrants a suspect/ban.
I don't know what it is about this Pokemon, but it seems to bring out some of the absolute worst takes from people. My favorite has got to be the people who claim that Gholdengo "brought hazards back" and should stay so people can't "mindlessly remove hazards". First off, hazards have been an extremely relevant part of every generation since GSC. They are arguably least relevant in SS thanks to HDB, but HDB exist in SV too. Second, to imply that hazard removal comes with no downsides (that is, mindless) is just blatantly incorrect. Third, we find ourselves in a hazard meta that is much more akin to BW (where there aren't removal options) than SS (where there are removal options), despite the fact that there are some good removers (and HDB) this generation. Now, Gholdengo is not the only culprit here, as the increased distribution of hazards is a major factor too, but it is still quite clear that Gholdengo has shaped this metagame in a profound way.
No, I don't think Gholdengo is inherently broken, but it is an extremely centralizing force that warrants a closer look, probably even a suspect. There is no Pokemon in the tier that does its job as well as Gholdengo does its job of keeping hazards up. This kind of presence is useful for almost any type of build from HO to stall and is further backed up by Gholdengo's great stats and typing. I think a pretty obvious example of Gholdengo's influence is the dominance of Great Tusk (and Iron Treads to a lesser extent). Tusk is a top tier Pokemon for sure, but its usage is at almost 40% because its the only removal option for a lot of teams because it can spin and beat Gholdengo (sometimes). I also think Chi-Yu's imminent ban remains an X factor here, as its one of the best offensive checks to Gholdengo. Its ban could bring even more Gholdengo usage, though that remains to be seen.
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I'm getting back into the tier (was waiting for the suspect to be over) and running Balance is miserable. You have to run so much shit, and most of it is Annihilape food. Like, if you want to run Leftovers you have to run Hatterene. That is Annihilape food at lower health, which it very much could be considering how much you have to throw it out. Ting-Lu doesn't have like anything for it, can't even phase it out. Revenge killers like Chien Pao can't beat it after a Bulk U, or without chip. Rotom Wash can't outspeed and gets taunted, can't do meaningful damage and has to give Rage Fist with Volt Switch, or just hard switches. Taunt still fucks up Garganacl over the course of a game, because Annihilape doesn't have to get it right the first time it switches in. Clodsire is pretty much Rage Fist bait if Toxic is taunted. Corviknight can be okay, but can only really attack freely once, and then it's still Annihilape food. Blissey... yeah. Yeah, Dondozo can be annoying, but Taunt ruins its ability to make much progress on the switch, or even just against it if it has a few Rage Fist boosts. Taunt can also stop Rest if you run that set, making it much less durable over time. And Dondozo is necessary for so many other Pokemon as well.
The other team still has 5 mons to weaken you. I'm aware Annihilape isn't a problem against more offensive and fast teams, but Annihilape's faster Taunt, Rage Fist and excellent typing gives it so much in the way of dismantling balance in just one slot.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, as I am not that experienced in this tier as of now. But Chi-Yu is not even the biggest problem I'm facing as a Balance player, it's that Annihilape requires risky plays to have a chance to beat in the context of a 6v6 game.
this is adv drypass erasure
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
There's really no one true set to Tank Garchomp. The one I just put in earlier was just what was common a few weeks ago. I really wouldn't put flamethrower here since it just tickles Corviknight anyway and given that Garchomp is bait for Orthworm and Corviknight, I might as well pull off a double switch in that case
Torch Song, recovery, unaware, great bulk and Tera to become almost unkillable can turn this innocent crocodile into disruptive monster that can easily eat you alive.
While I agree of the ones i mentioned its the least worrysome I do think its a silent sleeper and it can turn games around on its own thanks to torch song and its near invicibility.
Just saying it might deserve some thoughts, we will see as the meta changes, but Skele can be quite scary if u dont have a clear answer, and this can be even further abused by bulk offense and stall/pseudostall shenanigans.
Ceruledge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak
- Taunt
Not a new set but I haven't seen enough praise for it so I will do so. This mon is so good at being a....bullshit handler. Volcarona, Chiyus fire moves, Valiant, Iron Moth, Cinderace, this guy checks a lot and its potential for sweeping late game is a very easy thing to achieve with tera bug being a complete wall for stuff like tusk and ting lu and not enough flying and rock attacks going around to punish it (Brave bird corv, acro moon, hurricane dnite, power gem glimmora, and salt cure). 2 of these mentioned are...kinda rare.
One thing I wanted to add tho, is the heinous calcs of stuff it lives even without tera. Observe.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Ceruledge: 270-320 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Ceruledge: 270-320 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Ceruledge: 186-220 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Ceruledge: 302-356 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
This guy is extremely tough, and I'm glad it seems to be finding a good path into the metagame beyond ugly sash sweeper. Mon is way too cool to not be good.
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak
- Taunt
Not a new set but I haven't seen enough praise for it so I will do so. This mon is so good at being a....bullshit handler. Volcarona, Chiyus fire moves, Valiant, Iron Moth, Cinderace, this guy checks a lot and its potential for sweeping late game is a very easy thing to achieve with tera bug being a complete wall for stuff like tusk and ting lu and not enough flying and rock attacks going around to punish it (Brave bird corv, acro moon, hurricane dnite, power gem glimmora, and salt cure). 2 of these mentioned are...kinda rare.
One thing I wanted to add tho, is the heinous calcs of stuff it lives even without tera. Observe.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Ceruledge: 270-320 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Ceruledge: 270-320 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Ceruledge: 186-220 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Ceruledge: 302-356 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
This guy is extremely tough, and I'm glad it seems to be finding a good path into the metagame beyond ugly sash sweeper. Mon is way too cool to not be good.
Orthworm might not lack them though, with Cyclizar in the meta Orthworm gets completaly outclassed but in a no Cyclizar meta orthworm could replace it, after all Orthworm can at least consistently pull 1 Shed Tail, thanks to its ability it has ground absorb and might even be able to pull more than 1 shed tail too. Also rocks and few other stuff make him worth using imo.
The point is, Screens + Shed Tail teams will still exist unless Shed Tail is banned.
Its very likely that until Cyclizar is banned we will never know if its actually Cyclizar combination of speed, regen and movepool or just Shed Tail the issue.
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I find it really funny how this starter trio ended up being. I think everyone was expecting Meowscarada to absolutely be the best out of the bunch, with it's awesome speed, Flower Trick, access to Spikes, T-Spikes, Knock Off, U-turn and, of course, Protean. Seemed like such the recipe for being broken!
And yet, it's actually the LEAST viable out of the 3 starters!
Funny how that works out sometimes.
That's quaval actually, meowscarada being second to dirge. Band set has been making waves and before that scarf and hdb was already notable, one of the only mons who hard walls it is corviknight, which isn't in a good spot rn and gets punished with knock anyway.
I find it really funny how this starter trio ended up being. I think everyone was expecting Meowscarada to absolutely be the best out of the bunch, with it's awesome speed, Flower Trick, access to Spikes, T-Spikes, Knock Off, U-turn and, of course, Protean. Seemed like such the recipe for being broken!
And yet, it's actually the LEAST viable out of the 3 starters!
Funny how that works out sometimes.
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