FAKE NEWS RIGGED! BAN-TERA WON BY A LOT! BAN TERA WAS ABOUT TO WIN BUT SUDDENLY MYSTERY VOTES CAME FROM DELETED ACCOUNTS! THIS ELECTION WAS A FRAUD AS A RESULT OF MAIL IN VOTES!!!!!
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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im the source
Considering the tight margin, I think the no action outcome was partially boosted by the way the voting/options were set up. Had I qualified to vote, my preference would have been team preview > no action >> full ban >> stab only >>>> one tera (I might not have continued playing the tier with this winning). But no action was not part of the ranked choice. Since 3 of the 4 action items were highly undesirable I would have voted no action first, even though I preferred team preview. Other people had different priorities but I speculate that some might have worried about several of the action items to the point they cast a no action first. Something like "I do prefer X, but not more than I prefer No Action over Y and Z, so I should vote no action first". Some people will call this dumb, but I do think this was a factor. Depends on how concerned someone was about several of the action items.
maybe its just me but i like this version of tankchomp more
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 28 SpA / 128 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
128 + Naive ensures you always outspeed Glimmora, and Flamethrower with 28 is for extra power against steels like Corviknight and Orthworm, the rest in defense so that tank chomp can be tank chomp
Flamethrower over spikes because it seems like i dont have much chances to put them on the field, and withouth gholdengo on my side, corviknight and orthworm ALWAYS come in for free and i cant touch them
remember when everyone thought maushold was going to be broken before release? good times those were
I want to circle back to voting requirements for future suspect tests (and I say this as someone who was not disappointed with the outcome). Any proposal (such as mine) is as arbitrary as the 80% GXE that was used. I acknowledge the most votes in history, etc. 351 people qualified. But consider the December usage stats indicate there were 3,385,255 OU games and with two battlers per game = 6,770,510 "battlers". Even if the average player played 1000 OU games in the month that would mean there were over 6770 people playing. If the average number of OU games played was more like 250 then we had over 27,000 people playing. Maybe 351 voters is the right number, maybe not.
Here is a proposal. OU council can release a ranked choice survey with different req cutoffs. This would allow the community to decide what the voting reqs should be. Something like 70/73/76/80 GXE as the cutoffs. This would still be after 50 games. To qualify to vote with less than 50 games then you can essentially use the current chart. For example if 73% at 50 games works. Maybe 49 games requires 76% GXE, 48 games requires 79% GXE and then 47 games the current value.
I think that 50 games is a reasonable sample size and that if you can maintain in the 70s % GXE at that point you probably have decent metagame knowledge. Consider that the majority of top-500 ladder players currently have over 70% but under 80% GXE. Yes, I agree GXE is better than ELO for voting reqs. But I would also say most top-500 ladder players probably could make an informed vote.
Here is a proposal. OU council can release a ranked choice survey with different req cutoffs. This would allow the community to decide what the voting reqs should be. Something like 70/73/76/80 GXE as the cutoffs. This would still be after 50 games. To qualify to vote with less than 50 games then you can essentially use the current chart. For example if 73% at 50 games works. Maybe 49 games requires 76% GXE, 48 games requires 79% GXE and then 47 games the current value.
I think that 50 games is a reasonable sample size and that if you can maintain in the 70s % GXE at that point you probably have decent metagame knowledge. Consider that the majority of top-500 ladder players currently have over 70% but under 80% GXE. Yes, I agree GXE is better than ELO for voting reqs. But I would also say most top-500 ladder players probably could make an informed vote.
Talking about Garg, I'm play mostly offense but I wonder, how do pasive teams beat it? If teams with several attackers can struggle against it if played well, I only can think in either using Garg itself to beat it or unaware Donbozo with convert cloak.
Using the idea that most of the top 500 is under 80 gxe as an implication that 80 gxe is too high of standard ignores that fact that many people are probably using fun teams that aren't as viable, trying untested teams that still need to be fine tuned etc etc. This is going to push down their gxe, and not be indictivate of actual skill level. There's many people whose main alts are below 80 gxe but got reqs in under 40 games.
Lol this is such a funny image, it looks like a infestation of mice are on the radar (they're so cute)
Anyway, I do think they should be on the radar but I think ultimately if it gets voted on, I don't think it will be enough for a ban.
Positives (Population Bomb) even without a Tidy Up in play can hurt really bad (20 BP x 10 without STAB included). Tidy Up clears hazards and increases attack by 1, Gholdengo cannot block it (Huge plus even though very frail Pokémon).
Negatives - if you don't go with Wide Lens it has the potential to miss each time using the attack (which is 10). Anything running Rocky Helmet (Like Corviknight) walls it pretty well, which might incite people to run Protective Pads (Which I think in the long run might be the better item).
I think it's usage will rise in the upcoming month after some of the (potential) bans.
REAL SIDENOTE: I think 81 GXE 50 games minimum should be the new standard (I know harsh but w/e).
^ none of you are ready for that conversation yet.
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The most common Garg set, at least on high ladder, is protect + stealth rock, which is completely invalidated by covert cloak or substitute, can't get passed regen cores and hates getting knocked. Garg is amazing don't get me wrong, but I can't think of another pokemon in past generations that has this level of viability but also gets invalidated by an item so easily. It's also so easy to lure, if you use sub on something a team that relies on Garg to beat, there's very little they can do in terms of counterplay. I think people have been extremely slow to adjust to how to build and play around Garg, which is giving it a sense of dominance that it shouldn't have.
But yeah, Covert Cloak does have some applications outside of countering Salt Cure, unlike Shed Shell (and you'd effectively need multiple Shed Shell users to completely invalidate Arena Trap, while one Covert Cloak user is sufficient to handle Garganacl).
This might be, the meta has been adapting against other stuff like shed tail + screens, rain and sun. I had to put sub Dragapult on my team to get reqs because of Garc (luckely it was also great against sun) so even if it isn't that busted it feels kinda restrictive while bulding a team.
This is fair on all accounts. I don't like hazard stacking as-is, and I already run a defogger + a rapid spinner with boots. (or double boots if need be).
I see people saying they hated the other action possibilities so much that they voted no action rather than action+preview, and that perhaps this was a flaw in the way the vote was designed. I'll play devil's advocate because I disagree.
If the idea of any other form of action was so repellant that they wanted to vote no action and play it safe instead, then action deserved to lose. Tera preview is the lightest restriction of all the action options by far, and it's abundantly clear to me that no action and tera preview were the most popular choices.
Look at this another way. What if we had a simple ban / no ban vote? Tera preview barely restricts the way you play with tera, only giving you more information in battle. So let's throw preview voters+no action into the same camp. Even if we were being generous and throw in other action voters in with the ban camp, that's still a big 71.67% majority voting no ban.
Ultimately, any meaningful restriction on tera had no shot. I doubt attitudes will do a complete 180 just because home drops.
If the idea of any other form of action was so repellant that they wanted to vote no action and play it safe instead, then action deserved to lose. Tera preview is the lightest restriction of all the action options by far, and it's abundantly clear to me that no action and tera preview were the most popular choices.
Look at this another way. What if we had a simple ban / no ban vote? Tera preview barely restricts the way you play with tera, only giving you more information in battle. So let's throw preview voters+no action into the same camp. Even if we were being generous and throw in other action voters in with the ban camp, that's still a big 71.67% majority voting no ban.
Ultimately, any meaningful restriction on tera had no shot. I doubt attitudes will do a complete 180 just because home drops.
I understand what you're saying, and it's all true. However, my case is not that Annihilape is the best pokemon in the tier or even near it, necessarily. I'm saying that it's uncompetitive.
This example you cite is accurate. If you had a Choice Specs Iron Valiant and a Life Orb Garchomp, you could take on Annihilape... maybe. Assuming you switched hard into Iron Valiant, this is the situation:
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fire Annihilape: 84-100 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Fire Annihilape: 257-304 (60.6 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Assuming you went hard Valiant, clicked Moonblast, then into Garchomp and used Earthquake, the Annihilape would be alive, and your Garchomp would be OHKOd by a 150 BP Rage Fist. Now, after the Earthquake damage and Rough Skin, hopefully the Annihilape threat has been neutralized? Well, maybe. If paired with a Pawmot, now you're probably screwed. Or, if you're running a bulkier team where Annihilape will have the opportunity to enter again, it could very well return and wreak havoc. At absolute best, you've traded Garchomp for Annihilape. And think, what if it was Tera Water? Are you supposed to be running entire teams full of Life Orb and Choice pokemon to cover every Tera-type of Annihilape?
You cite the offensive metagame as a general answer to Annihilape. This is reasonably true. You need a hell of a lot of offense to stop Annihilape from setting up though. It has incredible bulk, and has no issue waiting for the perfect opportunity. That being said, if nearly every pokemon on the team can dish out powerful hits, you can keep Annihilape down, unless it utilizes Screens. But if a single pokemon requires that Offense and HO are now the only viable playstyles, is that not banworthy? Annihilape absolutely ruins Balances and anything bulkier.
In summary, Annihilape is not a free win, nor is it the best pokemon in the tier. But when you see an Annihilape, it may beat you no matter what you do, no matter how well you play, all dependent on unpredictable factors. There is no room for error. You cannot let it set up for free without doing damage, and yet if you hit it even a single time without correctly guessing the set, you've already created a monster. It snowballs too fast, has too many variants, and you have no say in whether it beats you or not. This is uncompetitive, and this is why it absolutely needs to go.
Sources indicate Dragonite makes a surprising appearance on the tiering radar.
DD Dragonite most of the time is easily countered by Tusks one of the most popular mons in the meta and its biggest issue is Shed Tail (which should be banned), just run ice spinner.
But I do think the rest deserve at least a SUSPECT and are very bananable
Dragapult: Too many sets and too good, Specs, CB, Pivot, WoW, DD, all that with the best speed control and incredibly strong stabs.
ChienPao: Not much to be said, CB Adamant hits super hard while still outspeeding a lot of stuff and leaving you wondering at first which set is it.
Ape: Many sets, very bulky, even more with Tera and the ability to benefit from this and hit like crazy thanks to Rage Fist, pretty much always takes at least 1 mon with itself.
Garganacl: We all know... OP ability, even more OP move in salt cure, great stats and movepool and Tera to remove any possible real weakness it could have.
makes sense considering how threatening it is, especially with tera. the prevalence of screens and shed tail give it a free turn to set up and start cleaning teams with a boosted tera normal extreme speed. even without support from screens and/or shed tail, it's still incredibly easy to find setup opportunities thanks to its natural bulk and multiscale ability granting it at least one turn of setup. honestly not that surprised it's on the radar but i can't say i was expecting it to be on there
I love how Gholdengo is completely busted in theory but in practice its biggest effect can be summarized as "Bullying Corviknight."
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