Metagame Sun and Moon LC Discussion Thread

[Fiend]

dark rat is gonna be a strong ass mon. Life Orb hustle might be slightly too weak to just 2hko everything like band does, and there is the serious issue of being killed by its own recoil. but the added stab makes it a total bitch to switch into as it picks up several reliable OHKOs which helps. it comes across to me as a mix of doduo and houndour as an attacker. I think it'll be like kabuto where it's used to be innovative and can be an issue with some good foresight and building but i highly doubt anyone besides blara will use it on a serious team. too slow and aipom exists so niche at best but not exactly bad

 

[Blither]

I feel like rattatas speed is gonna be important if it gets to 18 speed, then I can see it being viable, since that let's it out speed Mienfoo.
And in this case that part-normal type will actually help it a lot, since it probably won't be bulky enough to take a 2x fighting move anyway, and this let's it bop things with extra STAB moves.

Also I can see hone claws+sucker punch being great, but again only if it gets enough speed to out speed Mienfoo (and if it gets those moves ofc)

 

[Blitz]

So is this when Baton Pass Clause gets established in LC?

 

[Camden]

So is this when Baton Pass Clause gets established in LC?

No, it's when we ban Eevee's Z-item for letting it be broken. Why must they keep doing these things? Ugh.

 

[JeromeSeiko]

Since the last trailer ... Ban Eevee or ban his Z-item ? :p

 

[Vanillish Wafer]

Since the last trailer ... Ban Eevee or ban his Z-item ? :p

I'd assume the Z stone would be banned, since Eevee itself isn't really overpowered. Just the fact that it has a Z stone to boost all its stats along with Baton Pass and Stored Power.

 

[Rowan]

I assume there's going to be a policy review thread that's 30 pages long on whether or not we should ban pokemon or z stones with people constantly repeating points and discussion going round in circles butttt, I guess we're gonna have to go with what the site decides to do when it comes to what we ban to make it consistent

 

[Kalalokki]

I mean banning Z-stones shouldn't be much harder than banning mega stones.

 

[Coconut]

It depends on how powerful the rest of the Z-Moves are and what they spread is for them on LC pokemon. I wasn't super impressed with the eevee one, it's cool boosts but I have my doubts that it's going to be broken.

 

[JeromeSeiko]

It depends on how powerful the rest of the Z-Moves are and what they spread is for them on LC pokemon. I wasn't super impressed with the eevee one, it's cool boosts but I have my doubts that it's going to be broken.

Eevee is still Eevee, it's not gonna be broken for OU or even UU. But for LC, PU or even NU, it could be really OP

 

[Merritt]

It depends on how powerful the rest of the Z-Moves are and what they spread is for them on LC pokemon. I wasn't super impressed with the eevee one, it's cool boosts but I have my doubts that it's going to be broken.

Adaptability's the big reason it'd let Eevee be broken with +2 in everything. Eevee Quick Attacks are significantly stronger than Fletchling Acrobatics at +2 while being "faster" (due to being at +2 speed as well) alongside amazingly good defenses even without Eviolite (for reference it's 22/22/26 defenses at a 0/0/0 spread, and since you really don't need to run speed you can invest basically everything into defenses, easily hitting 22/28/28 defenses with 24 speed and 32 attack). It doesn't quite OHKO everything with Return (although if you're not as bulky as defensive Porygon and don't resist normal then you'll probably be OHKOed after rocks) but Double Edge OHKOs everything that doesn't resist it or isn't holding Eviolite after rocks and 2HKOs everything that does bar double resistances and immunities.

+2 236+ Atk Adaptability Eevee Double-Edge vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 11-13 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While Eevee probably can't do a turn 1 win against most teams (although it probably can against a decent number of them) it's probably going to end up the single best midgame sweeper in LC, ending up fulfilling a somewhat similar role to Xerneas in Ubers. Of course this is all theorymon, so it might end up being awful, but that's what I'm thinking after an hour with the damagecalc.

 

[Coconut]

I just don't think it should be banned before we even know what Z-Moves do, I completely agree that this could potentially be absolutely nuts.

 

[MZ]

+2 0 SpA Eevee Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 84 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Tirtouga: 17-20 (73.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Eevee Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 236 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Archen: 19-23 (76 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Eevee Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Finally, a reason to use more honedge

 

[infamy]

psa: gonna be using eevee constantly when sumo comes out, lol

 

[Camden]

psa: gonna be using eevee constantly when sumo comes out, lol

I think all of us will, tbh. You'd have to be crazy not to.

+2 0 SpA Eevee Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 84 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Tirtouga: 17-20 (73.9 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Eevee Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 236 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Archen: 19-23 (76 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Eevee Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Finally, a reason to use more honedge

+2 0 SpA Eevee Shadow Ball vs. 236 HP / 220+ SpD Eviolite Honedge: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Man, I can't wait to see how destructive this thing is gonna be in actual play.

 

[infamy]

I think all of us will, tbh. You'd have to be crazy not to.

using based pass, fam

my squadron just got 130% better

 

[Blither]

So... passing +2 in all stats to... let's say bulky LO foo w/ PJab and its basically GG right? Hopefully this thing is just quickbanned at the start of SuMo.

 

[Fresher Than You]

So all Eevee really needs to win is for teammates to lay Rocks and to spam Knock Off for a little bit. Not exactly strenuous support. Add in that we seem to have both tried and proven methods of Pursuit trapping and Yungoos to lure and kill ghosties (we haven't seen many ghosts but I highly doubt they'll introduce one so gamechanging that it negates pursuit trapping, or a fighting type strong to enough to make Pawniard, Houndour, Munchlax etc all unviable in one fell swoop) and Zeevee here is pretty set. Oh and fuck priority, I haven't done any calcs but I highly doubt any unboosted priority moves are OHKOing +2 Def/SpDef Eevee from full. +2 Quick Attack anyway so I doubt it matters.

MAYBE via some constant pressuring a la VoltTurn (having some way to neuter Yungoo while your at it), constantly threatening to set up yourself and laying many hazards out without losing momentum, a good player can avoid Eevee setting up clean. Since Z-Moves seem to be one use the player might feel it to dangerous to waste their strongest mon. But that's a lot to ask from players in general to have to do every match, nevermind in the midst of knowing what new Pokemon and strategies are still viable.

Tl;dr I'll give it 2 weeks tops.

 

[Nineage]

With everyone talking about how broken Zeevee will be, I just wanted to drop a few things I've been thinking about.

First, I'm assuming we are going to be unbanning a fair amount of stuff for SuMo, and while its not clear exactly what will be unbanned, I think we can anticipate a somewhat TangMa-ish metagame after the meta settles but before the first suspects. In Tangma, there was enormous pressure on setup sweepers due to the prevalence of sleep, and things that hit really, really hard (Tangela). It was pretty easy to run teams that weren't setup bait, except maybe to Swirlix, and Swirlix has a better typing, more setup options, ability to run a useful item, and (unless something changes), better overall coverage than Eevee. While I'm not saying that Zeevee will not be dominant, or even that it won't be broken, I think going off about how broken its going to be is more or less a waste of time until we see exactly what we get in the new meta.
Tl;dr give zeevee a chance

 

[Fiend]

I don't think we are unbanning enough to pressure eevee in the way nine envisions, however he is right to not just assume eevee is getting +2 stupidly easily. It can't pack eviolite, we are not sure of the mechanics just yet but I assume it's a one time use move meaning a sturdy roar user such as onix is sufficient counter play. Eevee will most likely define the early meta but it won't be as ridiculous as it sounds off the bat. We also don't know the rest of the Mons released, other z moves, or even any type chart changes as unlikely as that seems. Eevee also doesn't resist anything nor does itemless bulk without bj's recovery make it easy to set up. It'll require memento support or passed boosts to be easy to set up, and those have their downsides.

But regardlessly Eevee will sooner or later unhealthy warp the meta, assuming there are no drastic changes or z moves if a similar caliber. For just its BP utility alone it might be too much for example. Or its coverage of Return / Shadow Ball / Quick Attack / filler like HP fite or fire or smthng makes it stupid broken. Also the fact that steels and rocks lack decent recovery outside of BJ, plus are trappable as hell is greatly in Eevee's favor.

It'll be such a limiting Mon man.

Tl;dr: eevee has downsides, and also we still don't know a lot. It'll be free until we know some things, kinda like sneasle but quite so obviously broken.

 

[dsr95]

I think it also needs to be known if Z-moves activate at the start of the turn like Mega Evolution, because if they don't, it might make Eevee easier to be dealt with. We also don't know if there's any other LC mons that haven't been revealed with abilities that help vs Eevee, Baton pass, or even new moves. A Quickban should only be arranged after playing around with it for a while and determining if it's unhealthy, or broken.

 

[Drew]

true. Outplaying with cottonee or another fast taunt user could just destroy an eevee sweep. I don't really think that Eevee should even be considered to be quickbanned until we know EXACTLY how Z-Moves (and especially Eevee's Z-Move) works.

 

[blarajan]

dark rat is gonna be a strong ass mon. Life Orb hustle might be slightly too weak to just 2hko everything like band does, and there is the serious issue of being killed by its own recoil. but the added stab makes it a total bitch to switch into as it picks up several reliable OHKOs which helps. it comes across to me as a mix of doduo and houndour as an attacker. I think it'll be like kabuto where it's used to be innovative and can be an issue with some good foresight and building but i highly doubt anyone besides blara will use it on a serious team. too slow and aipom exists so niche at best but not exactly bad

toxic rattata

 

[Altariel von Sweep]

Anyone talking about Alola Meowth? Well, if not, I'll begin.
Alola Meowth looks interesting, still having Technician, it can use some good STAB attacks like Feint Attack, which it doesn't fail, and the most useful, wanted for all and spammable attack of the tier, Knock Off. One of its drawbacks is getting more weaknesses, but it doesn't make it stand back of being a good offensive lead, even if it doesn't have STAB Fake Out. Its BST probably will be the same. With all of this, it would be able to fight better against Ghost-types like Gastly, and it would run some sets like the normal Meowth does. It also can be a good teammate for a Dark Spam.

 

[Superpowerdude]

No ones talked about spooky sand castles potential in lc yet? This thing is ground and ghost and its ability is water compaction meaning it's got an immunity to water moves and gets a defense boost.

This Pokemon is a switch in to probably the most annoying poke to switch into, chinchou. Normally it's impossible to stop its volt switch, unless you're running you're own Chou where you get into 50/50s depending on the set you're running, or if you're running trace porygon. Spooky sand castle is immune to both his stabs, so no scald burn but rather a defense boost which may make it very tricky to kill.

I could see this mon being used as a counter to volt-turn teams, having a Volt switch immunity, shutting down Chou and spin blocking decently (water compaction helps vs staryu) keeping hazards on the field against U-turners will wear them out quick

Edit: apparently it doesn't have water immunity Smdh