Metagame Sun and Moon LC Discussion Thread

[Samoyed]

it's got an immunity to water moves

unfortunately, it's not immune, just gets a boost

 

[Altariel von Sweep]

It could be a good trait, but only if the sandcastle-looking mon has enough SpDef to switch into a Scald.

 

[DaKakz]

So, Poison/Dark Alolan Grimer, what do you guys think ?

 

[Coconut]

So, Poison/Dark Alolan Grimer, what do you guys think ?

Jokes aside, if it's real (it still isn't 100% confirmed at the time of this post), it looks pretty good.

 

[Altariel von Sweep]

Looks like Stunky, but much bulkier than it, since it has 50 Base Defense and Special Defense, when Stunky, by its side only has 47 Defense and 41 SpDef. But I must not deviate from the topic.
Alolan Grimer, with its new typing, it only gets weakness from Ground-type attacks, and looks like it can counter both sets of Gothita. Also, it can run effectively a BJ Thief set, if it keeps Sticky Hold, to steal other Eviolites/BJs, or a setup sweeper set w/ Curse, which it makes it bulkier and hit harder, Gunk Shot, a powerful STAB attack which it can heavily damage with risk of poison, Fire Punch to cover from Pawn/Ferro, and Shadow Sneak, to have priority. But, it makes me feel sad, because of the lack of KOff, getting STAB boost from its Dark-type, but it doesn't even matter. I think that it would consist of if it's real.

 

[Kurukaito]

Looks like Stunky, but much bulkier than it, since it has 50 Base Defense and Special Defense, when Stunky, by its side only has 47 Defense and 41 SpDef. But I must not deviate from the topic.
Alolan Grimer, with its new typing, it only gets weakness from Ground-attacks, and looks like it can counter both sets of Gothita. Also, it can run effectively a BJ Thief set, if it keeps Sticky Hold, to steal other Eviolites/BJs, or a setup sweeper set w/ Curse, which it makes it bulkier and hit harder, Gunk Shot, a powerful STAB attack which it can heavily damage with risk of poison, Fire Punch to cover from Pawn/Ferro, and Shadow Sneak, to have priority. But, it makes me feel sad, because of the lack of KOff, getting STAB boost from its Dark-type, but it doesn't even matter. I think that it would consist of if it's real.

Yes i'm agree, he have a good potential

 

[fatty]

Jangmo'o and Type: Null LC confirmed??

 

[Drew]

well jangmo'o was already basically confirmed as the sudo legend for gen 7, but Type: Null is gonna end up with Swirlix, Scyther, and Sneasel as the instabanned mons if it's as broken as it looks

 

[Merritt]

Jangmo'o looks like it's the pseudo-legendary first stage, which as usual implies eh stats. The two -proof abilities are decent (bulletproof more than sound, although Soundproof can potentially mess with Amaura), but it's probably going to have similar issues to the other 300 BST psudeo-legendaries. Of course it could end up being like Axew and be more useful.

Type: Null, aka baby Arceus because Silvadi is literally Arceus (has a renamed Judgement and Multitype) could be ludicrously broken but of course we know basically nothing about it other than type. Dex description suggests its speed is low though.

 

[Fiend]

Low key hoping Type: Null is a good beheeyem, as in it hits hard as fuck but its slow enough that it isn't broken and its typing is good enough that, defensively it doesn't suck like beheeyem does, and offensively it gets some good notable KOes like beheeyem does. I hope it's a slightly different skrelp, where it gets more OHKOs than skrelp but has a less useful typing making it unable to switch in nearly as much.

 

[Drew]

I think some of you are forgetting we already know Type: Null's ability: Battle Armor. Don't get me wrong, it still looks like it may be broken, but it won't be Arceus Jr.

 

[fatty]

and it's already known to be normal type, thus making normal spam (type: null + eevee) the new meta for gen 7 lc. gg.

 

[Conni]

Alolan Grimer looks pretty viable as it only has weakness to Ground now, also Alolan Grimer might have a different role or change from normal Grimer, eg. if it can use Fire Punch than it can be of use against Pawniard (etc.) as it can easily switch into Knock Off.

 

[Altariel von Sweep]

You forgot something: Alolan Grimer didn't keep Sticky Hold, so it can't switch-in into Pawn safely with no fear to lose its item.

 

[Conni]

You forgot something: Alolan Grimer didn't keep Sticky Hold, so it can't switch-in into Pawn safely with no fear to lose its item.

oh I see, so it might entirely have a different role than normal Grimer, although it can switch into a majority of moves now, if it keeps normal Grimer's bulk that is

 

[G-Luke]

#NormalTypes4LC

 

[PD]

I haven't been caught up to the new Sun and Moon meta and what type of potential it holds, because I have had this feeling of preserving any sense of excitement eating away at me, forcing me to not want to get spoiled. With that said, I still want to be caught up with everything; I have a few questions.

• What confirmed new LC pokemon are there?
• What seems to be the most dominant typing so far?
• Can someone explain to me these new Alolan type shifts?
• What new abilities are found on each pokemon?
• Any new items that I should look into?
• What are some prominent lc pokemon to be looking forward to?
• Does this new Alolan region include pokemon from each gen?
• Any other things that I should know in order to prepare me for this upcoming game?

Hopefully all these questions can be answered as I too hope to be educated on this new metagame in the future in order to write up a few Analyses and other things to help out with this new and exciting LC community.

 

[Drew]

So question 1: http://www.pokemon-sunmoon.com/en-us/pokemon/ just look through that
2: ground is looking p good as well as normal but none really stand out too much
3: basically they are just new mons with the same names as old ones
4: this u should prob just use the link above and check out each LC mon one by one
5: no
6: probably mudbray seems to be the consensus from the LC community as the one looking the best, excluding motherfucking type: null
7: yes
8: look up "z-moves" when you get the chance

Next time PD, please just read the entire thread from the beginning.

 

[PD]

So question 1: http://www.pokemon-sunmoon.com/en-us/pokemon/ just look through that
2: ground is looking p good as well as normal but none really stand out too much
3: basically they are just new mons with the same names as old ones
4: this u should prob just use the link above and check out each LC mon one by one
5: no
6: probably mudbray seems to be the consensus from the LC community as the one looking the best, excluding motherfucking type: null
7: yes
8: look up "z-moves" when you get the chance

Next time PD, please just read the entire thread from the beginning.

I have my reasons... I didn't want to be completely spoiled, I knew what exactly I wanted to know in a more narrow and condensed section. I don't want to know everything :) but thanks man

 

[PD]

What exactly makes stakeout different from analytic rather than analytic just boosting power if it goes last? They both boost power if a Pokémon switches out yes?

 

[Samoyed]

That's the difference, and stakeout is a bigger boost iirc

 

[Alice Kazumi]

What exactly makes stakeout different from analytic rather than analytic just boosting power if it goes last? They both boost power if a Pokémon switches out yes?

They arent exactly the same. Analytic works if your mon moves slower than your opp (switch in, if your opp use priority attacks or if he is just faster than you) and boost the dmg by 30%. Stakeout is only on switch in and doubles the dmg.

Also I didnt post here before but Cutiefly and Rufflet are cute *~* hope they are both useful.

 

[PD]

They arent exactly the same. Analytic works if your mon moves slower than your opp (switch in, if your opp use priority attacks or if he is just faster than you) and boost the dmg by 30%. Stakeout is only on switch in and doubles the dmg.

Also I didnt post here before but Cutiefly and Rufflet are cute *~* hope they are both useful.

Wait does analytic boost only multiply by 1.5 rather than doubling?

I'm probably too late, but after some speculation on this thread and SunMo in general, I noticed that Salandit is like a huge croagunk check ... although this may force a rise in croagunk's using earthquake. I'm still learning about these mons but it's cool to start coming up with possible teambuilding and battling strategies with these Pokémon :D

 

[Merritt]

Wait does analytic boost only multiply by 1.5 rather than doubling?

Analytic is a 1.3x damage multiplier, actually the exact same multiplier as Sheer Force. Although this might have changed in Gen 6 (I don't believe it did) it's actually not the exact same multiplier as Life Orb, it is slightly different, although it is equal to Sheer Force.

Manifesto on Life Orb vs AnalyticForce with calcs

Life Orb (at least in BW, I'm pretty sure they changed the trigger address at least for gen 6) has a modifier of 0x14CC and a trigger address of 21DEC65. Meanwhile Sheer Force has a modifier of 0x14CD and a trigger address of 21dbf48. Finally Analytic has a modifier of 0x14CD and a trigger address of 21dc6c0.

This means that they actually have what is normally a very slight damage variation, despite being "the same multiplier" boost. To illustrate this I went to the limits of absurdity in terms of damage - a level 100 Reshiram Blue Flare (good for our purposes due to being sheer force-able) vs a level 1 Paras.

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 76 HP / 0- SpD Paras: 57774-67975 (481450 - 566458.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(57774, 58450, 59131, 59817, 60493, 61174, 61850, 62531, 63207, 63893, 64574, 65250, 65931, 66607, 67288, 67975)

252 SpA Sheer Force Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 76 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Paras: 72136-84868 (601133.3 - 707233.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(72136, 72984, 73836, 74680, 75532, 76380, 77224, 78076, 78924, 79776, 80620, 81472, 82320, 83172, 84016, 84868)

252 SpA Analytic Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 76 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Paras: 72136-84868 (601133.3 - 707233.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(72136, 72984, 73836, 74680, 75532, 76380, 77224, 78076, 78924, 79776, 80620, 81472, 82320, 83172, 84016, 84868)
[Analytic was properly applied by modifying base speed stats of Reshiram and Paras]

At this level of damage it's pretty clear that Sheer Force and Analytic are better than Life Orb, but this isn't always the case! Due to how the formula works you can get a very different result. (Since I hope I was convincing enough that for all intents and purposes Sheer Force and Analytic are identical, I'm only doing Sheer Force from now on.)

252 SpA Life Orb Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 1409-1659 (438.9 - 516.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(1409, 1425, 1440, 1456, 1471, 1487, 1503, 1518, 1544, 1560, 1575, 1591, 1607, 1622, 1638, 1659)

252 SpA Sheer Force Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 1404-1656 (437.3 - 515.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(1404, 1420, 1440, 1452, 1468, 1488, 1504, 1516, 1536, 1552, 1572, 1584, 1600, 1620, 1636, 1656)

Interestingly AnalyticForce is generally weaker than Life Orb at this point. This is the case even as you go further down - see:

252 SpA Life Orb Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 185-218 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
(185, 187, 188, 191, 192, 195, 196, 200, 203, 204, 207, 208, 211, 212, 214, 218)

252 SpA Sheer Force Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 184-217 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
(184, 186, 189, 190, 193, 195, 196, 199, 201, 204, 205, 208, 210, 213, 214, 217)

It's not much, and there are even some damage rolls where AnalyticForce is stronger on the same random [0.85-1.00] damage roll, shown in bold in the above calcs. This is even the case for a couple of the Abomasnow rolls (not shown in bold).

Funnily enough, this even goes down to LC to a noticeable enough extent. For example, Ponyta vs Porygon has Life Orb as the objective better modifier - not even a single roll is better with AnalyticForce

236+ SpA Life Orb Ponyta Blue Flare vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 13-17 (50 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)

236+ SpA Sheer Force Ponyta Blue Flare vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)

In LC, luckily enough, we get to see similar behavior as Reshiram vs Paras without needing to go to the extreme of 5x weakness. A 2x will work fine.

236+ SpA Life Orb Ponyta Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snivy: 49-62 (233.3 - 295.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(49, 49, 49, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 57, 57, 57, 57, 57, 57, 62)

236+ SpA Sheer Force Ponyta Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snivy: 50-62 (238 - 295.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(50, 54, 54, 54, 54, 54, 56, 56, 56, 56, 56, 60, 60, 60, 60, 62)

Here AnalyticForce has a lot of better rolls and a few worse ones. So overall?

TL;DR Sheer Force and Analytic are identical multipliers, Life Orb is slightly different, Life Orb is better in most applicable situations for LC. All are around a 1.3x boost.

Yes this isn't quite what you were asking for but it was fun to do. I haven't done one of these in a while.

(also salandit might not even be LC, still no evolution)

 

[The Avalanches]

(also salandit might not even be LC, still no evolution)

Girl, please.