STAB STABmons

[Dahness]

Edit 2: Better image
New moves:
View attachment 579430

fickle beam seems so fair and balanced

 

[StompyStomps]

New Move Opinions

Ok, here are my thoughts on the new moves
Tera Starstorm- Sylveon has something new to do Pixilated shenanigans with. Is what I would say if Boomburst didn’t exist
Temper Flare- I’m sure something can get some niche use, but otherwise there are better Physical Fire Moves
Supercell Slam- is frustrated that Zekrom and his Bolts returned
Alluring Voice- No
Dragon Cheer- No 2: Electric Boogaloo
Hard Press- might have niche use, don’t care tho
Upper Hand- anti priority is always good
Psychic Noise- how to make a stall player ragequit
Tachyon Cutter- so basically f**k Focus Sash/Sturdy/Mimikyu? Hell yes
Thunderclap- Sucker Punch but special and Electric Type
Might Cleave- Kleavor stocks just went up
Burning Bulwark- Baneful Bunker but burns
Malignant Chain- *laughs in Gengar*
Fickle Beam: 3/10 chance to hit someone with drawbackless Eternabeam? Sign me TF up!
And finally, the imo best move added in The Indigo Disk…
Electro Shot- Every Fast Electric Type just became even more terrifying, with a 130 BP, 100% accurate Electric Type move that charges instantly in rain, I’m terrified.

 

[Izmagack]

DLC2 is upon us. Oh the horrors of a fresh set of moves and mons. After about 30 minutes of random testing these are some of my findings.

1: Araquanid with priority is TERRIFYING. I’ve been using this physical set I cooked up but I’ve seen other people on ladder run Tail Glow sets (don’t recommend). Genuinely very powerful, this set runs Surging Strikes but honestly all I’ve clicked is First Impression and Jet Punch. The SpD EVs are to survive a Tera Electric Raikou’s Thunderclap

bubble boy (Araquanid) @ Mystic Water
Ability: Water Bubble
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Jet Punch
- Poison Jab
- First Impression

B: Just as I predicted earlier this year, Iron Fist Rage Fist Golurk can get absurd. Max power is 420 (funny number go brrr) but with Spell Tag it goes to 504. Either number is overkill for anything that is not a normal type. Additionally you can run Iron Fist boosted Headlong rush if you want. Or you could run lefties for more longevity.

252+ Atk Spell Tag Iron Fist Golurk Rage Fist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 261-307 (65.4 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is after just two hits on Golurk)

zonai construct (Golurk) @ Spell Tag / Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rage Fist
- Shore Up
- Substitute
- Earthquake / Headlong Rush


There are a couple other notable sets but these are the two I’ve been having more fun with. I’ll keep experimenting and keeping y’all updated.

 

[Giagantic]

Hey STABmons players (you are out there right ) I come bearing a cursory examination of the most important elements brought with DLC 2 based on my first whole day impression. I will split it into moves and the pokemon.

Important Returning Moves:

• Aeroblast: A mostly reliable special flying stab is great for flying types, 95% acc is acceptable, increased crit means higher potential for greater damage. Only downside is it only has 8 pp but that isn't the end of the world taken as a whole.
• Sacred fire: A mostly reliable physical fire stab with an extremely high chance of burning 50%. Handy for fire types that also want to punish switchins with a burn but similarly to aeroblast 8 pp is definitely a downside.
• Bolt strike: A semi reliable, high powered physical electric move is something Iron Hands dreamed of and here it is, should definitely find a place on Iron Hands that want some extreme kick to their moveset which previously was forced to run Volt Tackle with the recoil being hefty.
• Blue flare: High powered and fairly reliable, Blue Flare will have some niche usage on atypical scarf or specs sets of special fires but as a whole is outclassed by Torch Song in general use.
• Sunsteel strike: In essense it is a slight improvement on Behemoth Blade/Bash as it can ignore abilities which while niche in general (occasional sturdy Garg or Disguise Mimikyu) will be appreciated by steels like Kingambit.
• Photon geyser: Interesting move as always, effective for physicals it is a generally higher damage attack with the same effect as Sunsteel and for specials it is probably just outclassed by other options such as Lumina Crash, Esper Wing, and Psystrike.
• Moongeist beam: Competes with Astral Barrage, and while's effect could theoretically come in handy versus things like Garganacl, most users of this would also rather run additional coverage that better handles these targets (Gholdengo would rather run Infernal Parade and generally runs Steel coverage, Gengar runs Focus blast) Though it definitely could see usage despite it's competition.
• Topsy-turvy: Dark Types get another utility move and while niche will definitely see some usage eventually, imagine Ting-Lu running this for setup sweepers as an example.
• Beak blast: Amazing, probably the best returning move as a whole, Corviknight, Skarmory, Landorus-therian, etc... all can run this with amazing effect being able to punish a vast array of targets for simply attacking and having good BP to boot and high pp. I can't praise this enough, it will immensely improve the viablity of Corviknight and defensive Lando-t sets.
• Secret sword: Will have some usage on Valiant, and maybe some addition niche usage on other stuff like Blaziken, Infernape, and so forth, a niche option to have over Focus Blast or the weak Aura Sphere.
• Psycho boost: Will also have some usage on high damage psychics that run specs or scarf but aside from that it has a ton of competition with moves that provide more with fewer downsides.

New Moves:

• Electro Shot: Will definitely see some usage on rain teams, maybe the occasional power herb set but I am doubtful it will see a MASSIVE amount of usage considering the rocky MU nature of rain and general struggles of many special electrics bar Rotom-Wash, and maybe Thundurus t & i.
• Tera Starstorm: ATM feels like a weaker Boomburst without Tera and with Tera I am not entirely sure how'd I'd rate it considering we've had Judgement for a while.
• Fickel Beam: Somewhat of a meme move honestly, may see some usage on things like Latios and Hydreigon but aside from that you'd rather go for the reliable damage of Dragon Energy or Clanging Scales.
• Burning Bulwark: Nothing special, will see some use on Heatran but aside from that will get very little usage, there are a lot of non-contect physical moves in STABmons for example the Torque moves and in general fires are just more offensive then defensive aside from a scant few like Skeledirge and Heatran.
• Thunderclap: Interesting move, I can think of some niche applications for it especially on a certain mon namely Vikavolt with a set as such; Tail Glow Thunderclap/Bug Buzz Eletro Drift or coverage.
• Mighty Cleave: Primary usage of this is definitely Kleavor which when paired with Sharpness hits like a truck. Outside of this, it faces hefty competition from Diamond Storm which I'd argue is better due to the defense boost despite being slightly less accurate at 95%.
• Tachyon Cutter: Has a definite niche over Make It Rain! in that it is without downside, is 100BP accross 2 hits and has a good number of PP to fall back on, Gholdengo, Heatran, etc.. more defensive sets that value not sacrificing their own SPA will definitely have to choose between higher BP versus Tachyon Cutter.
• Hard Press: Garbage move with apparently only 100 BP at max HP, just use Sunsteel Strike...
• Dragon Cheer: Useless in Singles.
• Alluring Voice: SUPER niche, would rather use Fleur Cannon for upfront burst damage, or Moonblast for reliability.
• Temper Flare: Weak move.
• Supercell Slam: Bad move, don't use over Zing Zap, Volt Tackle, or Bolt Strike.
• Psychic Noise: Sadly I doubt it will have much usage due to the sheer competition within special psychic moves, it also doesnt help that several of the targets that this could see use versus are Dark types (Tyranitar / Ting-Lu).
• Malignant Chain: Great move for special poisons with a sky high chance of badly poisoning, Gengar is a happy gar!

Important Returning Pokemon:

• Araquanid: Thing is insane, though most will think of using it physically, it's best set is either fully special or mixed, when used in tandem with Loaded Dice, Tail Glow, and Water Shuriken and Tera Water it becomes an immensely terrifying special sweeper in spite of it's low spa.
• Deoxys-Speed & Defense: Both have a lot of potential do to a whole bunch of things such as support with hazards or even setup or just outright burst damage (in Speed's case, it is the fastest mon in the entire metagame).
• Excadrill: Improves the viability of sand centric teams as a capable sweeper with Sand Rush, could also potentially run a supportive Rapid Spin set with Shore Up.
• Golurk: is a potential Rage Fist abuser with access to reliable recovery and usable defenses.
• Kingdra: Several different sets are possible, there are swift swim sets that are either physical of special, then there are funny sets such as Sniper Surging Strikes.
• Keldeo: It's Keldeo, has potential to pull off both CM and specs or scarf sets.
• Kyurem: Though it lost access to Roost, it is still a great attacker both specially and physically with it's great offensive typing. Freeze Dry Clanging Scales for special, Glacial Lance and Glaive Rush / Dragon Darts for physical, Kyurem has a lot going for it as a replacement to Baxcalibur.
• Porygon Z: A Monster that basically requires things like ghost types or Tyranitar to tank Boombursts from.
• Porygon 2: Slightly less monsterous but still a strong choice and quite bulky with Eviolite.
• Swampert: Another useful defensive ground with great typing and access to both water and ground moves which means recovery and more.
• Terrakion: Hits like a truck and had to wall, less potent then last gen in STABmons due to No Retreat being banned tho.
• Latios & Latias: Nice new psychics, both of which have niche as nukes and setup sweepers.

New Pokemon:

• Archaludon: May have some use but I am unsure in what capacity, Goodra-Hisui similarly doesn't get used much at all either, but we will see.
• Gouging Fire: Amazing Offensive Sweeper and even has potential to be defensive set with Wisp, Burning Bulwark, and Morning Sun.
• Hydrapple: Unsure how to rate it, though it is better then it's preevo as it is less passive and regen is cool so I could definitely see some usage from it.
• Iron Boulder: Practically made for STABmons, when under Electric Terrain this thing is immensely scary access to Psyblade is huge and Diamond Storm bolster's it defensively as well, somewhat struggles with Ting-Lu and such but can break by them with SD and Tera.
• Iron Crown: Interesting setup sweeper with good defenses and typing.
• Raging Bolt: Intersting pokemon but ultimately limited by it's stabs and overall lack of coverage options and lackluster speed, Thunderclap ain't saving it forever.

So far the meta is interesting, what will be the topic of future weeks in terms of potential bans, however, is weeks away.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

Boomburst!
This thing is broken again.
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 300-354 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
or
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Tera Normal Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 337-398 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO

Not much is standing up to this monstrosity! Ghosts get smacked by Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball. It can run Specs, and Scarf, and double dance too, but it's all really piggybacking off of how broken Specs is as a wallbreaker.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Normal Porygon-Z Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kommo-o: 168-198 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

Your only real wall is Tyranitar. Blobs are serious setup bait, especially if you run Sub.

Now for the downsides...
PZ is frail, slowish, and has essentially no resistances. It can't come in often, needing a lot of support to bring in, and is easily forced out by faster opponents or priority.


also broken again bruh
Tail Glow/Water Shuriken/Loaded Dice is the set. Really don't need anything else, so feel free to argue about the filler.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Tail glow water shuriken araquanid is strong. Its ability doubles its water shuriken So basically It's like It has huge power both categories With water moves. So pleasant!

 

[Giagantic]

Porygon Z been eating the meta alive!
​

So.... DLC 2 dropped, and to the surprise of nobody Porygon Z is busted, and as such we voted on it. I personally rushed this out as fast as I could because I want it gone now. As a small personal anecdote, I was using Porygon Z (GASP using the broken) and at +2 did 60% damage to a Tyranitar under sand with Boomburst (it was offensive Ttar), regardless it was that moment that I knew this thing was broken beyond any reasonable meta development and in a similar vein to Zoroark-Hisui (tho even more powerful but defensively weaker). Even in a scenario where Boomburst is banned, Blood moon would simply be used as a weaker option.

Votes were 3 Bans (me, Rofna, Palapapop, and FC which means InTheHills vote does not matter though I doubt they will not vote ban, it is that busted) and I will be adding their votes later.

Tagging Kris for implementation, thanks as always!

 

[Dahness]

Araquanid (M) @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Water Bubble
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Water Shuriken
- Bug Buzz
- Steam Eruption


Step 1: Tail Glow
Step 2: Profit

 

[drampa's grandpa]

Now that the biggest elephant computer virus in the room is out of the way, here are some of the other things I've been playing with!


Raging Bolt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Electro Drift
- Thunderclap
- Fickle Beam

125/73/91/137/89/75

Thunderclap is Sucker Punch just special and Electric, and Fickle Beam is 80 bp with a 30% chance of doubling in power. This set is designed around Thunderclap, using Raging Bolt's bulk and resistances to set up and smack things at +1 priority.

Fickle Beam has an outrageously high chance of activating. For a move with essentially no drawbacks it's kinda silly, so long as you don't rely on it in the builder.

We'll see if it's any good once people get used to Electric priority existing.


Much worse this gen for several reasons. First, significantly less ttar to prey on. Second, Gholdengo is everywhere and eats both STAB attacks for lunch. Fortunately the departure of Porygon-Z makes it easier to run Earthquake. Third Great Tusk competes with and checks Terrakion, although it doesn't want to eat multiple Close Combats. Still a good Pokémon who does much the same stuff as in previous gens, and finally has an accurate STAB!


I saw a lot of hype for this going into the DLC but it's been disappointing every time I've seen it. It's hard to set up and easy to revenge despite its bulk, and without setup it's not good enough. The fire type that makes it stand out also gives it a rocks weakness, meaning it only gets one chance on average per game that I've seen. Perhaps usable with the right support (webs maybe?).


Araquanid? What's that?

Moves:
Burning Bulwark: An excellent move easy to slap on many Pokémon. A new way to fish for burns has commenced, sorry folks.

Thunderclap: An excellent move with almost no abusers. It's also super shut down by ground types such as Landorus-Therian and Great Tusk... who are somewhat good I hear.

Fickle Beam: Probably the most influential move of the DLC in my opinion. It competes for best reliable Dragon STAB, and I kind of hate it. I don't want to live in a world with a 30% chance of losing to any random Dragon.

Everything else kinda sucks p sure

These are all just first impressions!

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Araquanid (M) @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Water Bubble
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Water Shuriken
- Bug Buzz
- Steam Eruption


Step 1: Tail Glow
Step 2: Profit

Id put aqua ring instead of steam eruption cause water sguriken hits alreDy like a bomb and u dont outspeed anything To want To make Even more damages.

 

[Izmagack]

Araquanid? What's that?

252+ Atk Araquanid First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

One argument for physical sets over special on Wet Shelob™️. Can snipe kills on slightly damaged waterpons. Other than that special is probably better lol.

 

[Dahness]

Id put aqua ring instead of steam eruption cause water sguriken hits alreDy like a bomb and u dont outspeed anything To want To make Even more damages.

the last two are just fillers mostly, all u need is just tail glow+shuriken

 

[smoolic]

alright new mons, i decided to play a bit and pushed my alt to #1

https://pokepast.es/f089ffc161b9c530

so a few things i learned
1. nothing takes a hit from brian hands aat +2, its very powerfull, especially now that it gets bolt strike

2.latias is amazing potentiall, also can consistently show volcanion the door, which is massive.

3.i should probably make lando tera water, now that ogerpon is less of a threat, considering how strong ice is

4.araquanid should run substitute, think about it, what stops araquanid? clodsire and pex, both ruined by subsitute, run substitute araquanid trust me(didnt use it myself but just trust)

5.beak blast is actually realy good, wasnt a fan at first but its just amazing, high base power, high pp, flying, no drawback, and consistent burns? yes please

ye thats about it, overall ttar and friends are balling more than ever before, also exca is back so we might see sand offense on the rise, might even build one myself :)

 

[Ryan5374]

Feel free to remove this if this isn't the right place for me to post this, but I just did a STAB RMT for the new DLC meta. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons-the-itsy-bitsy-spider.3733293/

 

[Izmagack]

minty fresh (Latios) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Draco Meteor
- Aura Sphere
- Flip Turn

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Latios Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 344-408 (113.1 - 134.2%) —guaranteed OHKO.

This is against max HP max Spdef AV pex. Utterly insane. Even if pex teras to a neutral type it’s still a guaranteed 2HKO. Aura sphere for coverage, flip turn for utility and an escape from bad matchups.

Also is Darkrai gonna be unbanned? It’s legal in OU and tbh isn’t all that great (I predict it being UUBL for the rest of the gen) and all it gets from the STABmons gimmick is fiery wrath. So maybe?

 

[NeonJolteonWasUsed]

Holy Crap STABmons players it's Blazin' Kickin' Chicken from the competitive Pokemon Youtube channel BKC!

Now that I have your attention with a shitpost image I threw together in approximately five seconds, allow me to take a moment of your time to talk about a Pokemon I feel has gone under the radars of many despite remaining very potent. I am of course talking about the original Fire Fighting type, the three time Uber, the one, the only, the...oh who am I kidding? You already saw the meme, it's Blaziken.

Offensive Swords Dance

Blaziken @ Life Orb / Air Balloon
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Dragon / Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Pyro Ball
- Close Combat
- Earthquake / Thunder Punch

Blaziken has a lot of very unique traits in the metagame that come together to form something that can very easily rob games if given the chance. Though it does compete with Gouging Fire quite heavily, its more immediately powerful set up in Swords Dance and ability to naturally beat Scarfers Gouging Fire would otherwise have to Dragon Dance a second time to beat gives Blaziken a solid niche over it, especially with Blaziken's defensive type better allowing it to Offensively check Kingambit and Weavile for Hyper Offense teams, which are two Pokemon that can otherwise pose quite a large threat to such structures.

Swords Dance + Burning Bulwark

Blaziken @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Dragon / Water
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Pyro Ball
- Thunderous Kick
- Burning Bulwark

This set is interesting in the fact that while unlike purely Offensive Swords Dance, this has no immediate way to break through Toxapex, however, what this sets lacks in its capability to beat Toxapex on its own, it makes up for in its ability to be a consistent threat throughout a game that is a lot harder to remove from the equation, especially when paired with its ability to punish revenge killing attempts via priority such as Jet Punch or accumulate Speed Boosts and Leftovers recovery with Burning Bulwark. The EV spread allows Blaziken to outspeed everything up to Iron Moth after a single Speed Boost. This set inparticular pairs best with Rillaboom for its ability to both bolster its longevity, and pressure Bulky Waters Blaziken normally has to play the long game VS, and Galarian Weezing for its ability to make sure Damage sticks on Toxapex by nullifying Regenerator, letting Blaziken eventually go for the game even with its presence. Blaziken becomes a very potent anti-offense tool with this set, shutting down lots of powerful wallbreakers thinking they can take easy advantage of forcing Blaziken out, only to be met with a hefty Burn and a Blaziken that can now use it as Swords Dance fodder as a result, as well as punishing very commonly spammed moves such as Ceaseless Edge, Mortal Spin, and Stone Axe, so that it can make both itself, and teammates far more dangerous.

I have a couple more untested ideas I want to give a try such as Choice Band and Torch Song variants. However I wanted to get my thoughts out on what I had already tried (and been pleasantly surprised by) now, establishing a groundwork of its good sets so that I can discuss the "weirder" stuff at a later date.
For now, I hope this post raises awareness for a Pokemon I believe to be quite underrated at the current moment!​

 

[Fissure]

New year, new me.

I briefly came back to help do some test games for the 2023 OM Circuit Championship and I figured I'd play some ladder games while I was at it. I've managed to get #1 using a team that was totally being carried by 3 mons. Just wanted to drop my thoughts on the meta that everyone probably already thinks or feels, but it's totally new to me. Oh also, here is the team.

1. The Team

This is one of the teams of all time. The goal was to bring as many brokens and priority as I could think of while still having an interesting team.

Just here for flying priority. Sometimes cleared hazards but really just clicked bird move.

I wanted water answers on this team and I heard people say this thing was broken. Kinda mid on this team, but clicking grass move was good. Really just clicked grass move unless I like had to surge a lando or whatever.
Much like an OU player, I constantly found myself asking why this thing is still in the meta. Bulky mf'er that sets up with SD and "sets up" by just playing the trade-for-trade game (which HO wants to do anyway). There were many times I wanted sucker, but an equal amount of times I was thankful for bp. Same shit new DLC.
I don't know who let this man on the team, but thank you. Sometimes you just gotta do over half to a skeledirge or trick something. Did you know tera fight mach punch kos offensive heatran? Well, I do.
The second "why is this mon still in the meta" mon. You just setup while dealing massive damage with torch song then you just do like 60% with shuriken afterwards. Bullies pex so maybe this mon is ok to keep (it's not but let's pretend).
Broken mon #3 brings up the rear. Even with a sub-optimal meme set, this thing does the same thing as the normal set. Set up and click boom. So many games ended up being set up vs set up and whoever crits first wins.

2. The Meta

As the #1 pex hater, I can say pex is fine rn. So many things can bully pex that I honestly don't care about standing on my soapbox to advocate for a pex ban that I always preach for every gen. This is one of the most offensive and cheese-able STAB metas imo. Every water type is a problem. Surging strikes being practically a bp of 113, water shuriken being 60-75 bp priority with dice, Jet punch being Aqua jet if Sam Sulek used it, and even the occasional aqua step to help sweep even better. S to A- on the VR is 24 mons with Water being 8 of them...1/3 of the top 24 is one type. The next common type is dark at 5...and 2 of those 5 are also water types. At some point we gotta ask ourselves, do we ban all the broken water moves or all the broken water types. Priority as a whole is broken. All of the good mons in the meta also get a good priority move (weird huh). Gambit is broken because of its dual priority in sucker (which it naturally gets) and bp (which it doesn't naturally get). I've already talked about the broken water prio so we can keep going. Rillaboom I am okay with. We have a good amount of grass answers and it just comes down to terrain teams being annoying, but objectively fine in the meta. I guess thunderclap is a thing, but having a prio move lose to like dragons and grounds in a dragon and ground heavy meta kinda sucks, but hey it is nice to have. Everything seems to setup. Kingambit, Great Tusk, Iron Moth (yes I count torch as setup), Iron Valiant, Gholdengo, Greninja, Urshifu-Rapid strike, Volcanion (torch again), Volcarona, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Gyarados, Heatran (whoa is that a torch mon again), Meloetta, Rotom-Wash, Sneasler, Crawdaunt, Blaziken, Deoxys-Speed, Gouging Fire, Kyurem, Araquanid...just to name a few. But everything meta relevant is a setup mon. If the HO one-trick guy is complaining about HO, you know something has got to change. Also to single out Meloetta, this thing can do too many things. It can be specs, it can be scarf, it can set up, it can be defensive, it can be offensive. Boomburst is 140 bp and this thing has base 128 sp.attack. It has decent bulk and its speed tier is good enough.

3. Tera

I don't care what y'all do since I no longer have any skin in the game, but tera has got to go. Having most games come down to "God I hope I have the right tera to not get swept by my opponent" or "God I hope I have the right tera to sweep my opponent" is not a good feeling for anyone.

4. WWFD (What Would Fissure Do)

Surging strikes ban, Jet Punch ban, Torch song ban, Volcanion ban, Kingambit ban, Meloetta ban, tera ban.

I must sleep. Goodbye till next time~

 

[Sylvi]

pannu's face sp mad when so many player started to play talonflame over the course of the last year and fissure posting a GOAT team with it utilizing the 2nd most broken mover on tflame tidy up right after court change. very nice post regardless

 

[Giagantic]

It's TIME TO RUMBLE the meta a bit more... The council brings a few changes for the New Year!

First off,

Is banned from STABmons, which may surprise those not aware of how potent it can be due to it's seemingly pitiful offenses but the combination of various qualities has resulted in this Water/Bug being a total monster. First, and foremost, it has access to Water Bubble, which is a 2x damage amp, second it's typing Water + Bug gives some key moves namely access to Jet Punch and Surging Strikes on the physical side (which was the weaker side) and most importantly Water Shuriken and Tail Glow (Quiver Dance was made redundant by this) and Loaded Dice. This means that even with it's crappy Spa a single Tail glow was enough to bolster it's offensive potential sky high letting it potentially sweep teams on the spot, and it's bulk made getting rid of it a bit on the difficult side if you were looking to prevent it from setting up.

TLDR; Water Bubble + STAB Water Priority (Water Shuriken ) + Big Setup Move (Tail Glow) + Loaded Dice = Big massive speed ignoring damage

The vote was unanimous with InTheHills being on break until proven otherwise)

Second we voted on some moves that we thought could be re-accessed after narrowing it down from 4 to 2 moves (Triple Arrows was shown to have very little support to unban so we didn't proceed with voting on it and Gigaton Hammer would potentially result in many bans so some argued), these moves were:

• Clangorous Soul ( 2 Keep Banned + 2 Unban)
• Wicked Blow (3 Unban + 1 Keep Banned)

As a result,

Wicked Blow has been unrestricted from STABmons
(it was effectively banned due to Urshifu-Single-strike being banned)
​

Now, regarding these two votes, there are reasons we, or more like me choose to re-access certain moves which I explained in the council chat:

Giagantic: Interesting slate ahead if you are all okay with it, I've discussed it before but I want to go over old bans of certain moves to ensure they are broken or not. These moves are things that predate many of our times on the council and were legacy bans basically from last gen (regarding Wicked Blow) or were part of another now banned Pokemons potential kit (Clangorous Soul + Roaring Moon) .

One important thing to note, I believe the right direction for STABmons is to ban Pokemon before moves, it is a move based meta which should mean that moves have a much higher threshold to meet in regards to being banned. Only moves that are explicitly broken beyond any hope such as Shed Tail should realistically be banned or those that are simply uncompetitive (Dire Claw, Acupressure, etc...).

First move is Wicked Blow, unbanning it will definitely get Kingambit banned, potentially Weavile but both of these mons are already borderline in their own way, only held back by various attributes such as Weavile's frailty and rock weakness and Kingambits slowness and reliance on priority. I think we should unban it as aside from these potential two collateral Pokemon it'd not effect the meta much since it now has the same BP as Flower Trick and some Dark's would appreciate access to it. Also, the meta is not lacking for pokemon, losing a few outliers is not a good enough reason to keep it banned IMO.

Next would be reviewing old bans/restrictions that I find some questionably fine, namely, Triple Arrows, Clangorous Soul, and Gigaton Hammer.

Triple Arrows I pushed and voted ban because it had characteristics that were uncompetitive with high Flinch and Def drop + unblockable higher crit chance which made defensive counterplay iffy. I want to be sure everyone is on board with it's ban / unban.
[12:38 PM]Giagantic: Clangorous Soul is in many regards inferior to Dragon Dance, the damage you take using it effectively means it is net neutral gains compared to DD, potentially net negative. Course this is only true for those that lack recovery, for those with access to healing it is a potent weapon which would include Gouging Fire and Salamence but aside from these two it is simply another option neither entirely better or worse then DD. (edited)
[12:40 PM]Giagantic: Finally Gigaton Hammer's primary claim to fame is Kingambit, outside of this it was always questionable whether it'd be all that good, and Kingambit has barely dropped at all in terms viability since then and if it is getting banned with the release of Wicked Blow then I don't see why we should keep it banned. We can access this later if we have too.

The result was that Wicked Blow will be freed, and this will probably result in the banning of Kingambit, potentially Weavile as well but aside from these two the move should have at best niche application on various dark types due to a strong competition within dark type moves with standouts being Ceaseless Edge.

Clangorous Soul however, was more torn with 2 unbans and 2 keep ban and the reasons being is there are several dragons that would be ideal abusers of the move, namely, the Lati twins, Salamence, and Gouging Fire, all of which had recovery and bulk to abuse the omniboost effectively.

Tagging Kris for implementation, <3.

 

[Clas]

2. The Meta

As the #1 pex hater, I can say pex is fine rn. So many things can bully pex that I honestly don't care about standing on my soapbox to advocate for a pex ban that I always preach for every gen. This is one of the most offensive and cheese-able STAB metas imo. Every water type is a problem. Surging strikes being practically a bp of 113, water shuriken being 60-75 bp priority with dice, Jet punch being Aqua jet if Sam Sulek used it, and even the occasional aqua step to help sweep even better. S to A- on the VR is 24 mons with Water being 8 of them...1/3 of the top 24 is one type. The next common type is dark at 5...and 2 of those 5 are also water types. At some point we gotta ask ourselves, do we ban all the broken water moves or all the broken water types. Priority as a whole is broken. All of the good mons in the meta also get a good priority move (weird huh). Gambit is broken because of its dual priority in sucker (which it naturally gets) and bp (which it doesn't naturally get). I've already talked about the broken water prio so we can keep going. Rillaboom I am okay with. We have a good amount of grass answers and it just comes down to terrain teams being annoying, but objectively fine in the meta. I guess thunderclap is a thing, but having a prio move lose to like dragons and grounds in a dragon and ground heavy meta kinda sucks, but hey it is nice to have. Everything seems to setup. Kingambit, Great Tusk, Iron Moth (yes I count torch as setup), Iron Valiant, Gholdengo, Greninja, Urshifu-Rapid strike, Volcanion (torch again), Volcarona, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Gyarados, Heatran (whoa is that a torch mon again), Meloetta, Rotom-Wash, Sneasler, Crawdaunt, Blaziken, Deoxys-Speed, Gouging Fire, Kyurem, Araquanid...just to name a few. But everything meta relevant is a setup mon. If the HO one-trick guy is complaining about HO, you know something has got to change. Also to single out Meloetta, this thing can do too many things. It can be specs, it can be scarf, it can set up, it can be defensive, it can be offensive. Boomburst is 140 bp and this thing has base 128 sp.attack. It has decent bulk and its speed tier is good enough.

3. Tera

I don't care what y'all do since I no longer have any skin in the game, but tera has got to go. Having most games come down to "God I hope I have the right tera to not get swept by my opponent" or "God I hope I have the right tera to sweep my opponent" is not a good feeling for anyone.

4. WWFD (What Would Fissure Do)

Surging strikes ban, Jet Punch ban, Torch song ban, Volcanion ban, Kingambit ban, Meloetta ban, tera ban.

I must sleep. Goodbye till next time~
View attachment 585834

It's TIME TO RUMBLE the meta a bit more... The council brings a few changes for the New Year!

First off,

Is banned from STABmons

One important thing to note, I believe the right direction for STABmons is to ban Pokemon before moves, it is a move based meta which should mean that moves have a much higher threshold to meet in regards to being banned. Only moves that are explicitly broken beyond any hope such as Shed Tail should realistically be banned or those that are simply uncompetitive (Dire Claw, Acupressure, etc...).

Echoing thoughts with Fissure here past a Tera ban since I believe that's because of the broken moves and not because of the mechanic. A LOT of the issues I've had with STAB this gen are still present in DLC2, with the most egregious being Loaded Dice Water Shuriken, Jet Punch, Meloetta, and Volcanion. If Wicked Blow wasn't unbanned then I'd argue Kingambit is like mostly fine? But now you literally need Great Tusk to not autolose to it. Water Shuriken alone has led to bans like Manaphy and the otherwise godawful Araquanid (seriously this was never really good until this gen, i wonder why?), and Jet Punch is really stupid on a ton of Pokemon like Urshifu-RS, Ogerpon-W, Poliwrath (yes that thing), and a stupid number more, with only really Tera to consistently answer? It doesn't help that offensive Tera compounds this issue, but removing Tera wouldn't help in the slightest since you really need something like Beak Blast or a specific check to somewhat handle these anyway. I somewhat agree with Giagantic's stance of banning moves only when they're egregious, but surely with all the proof of how stupid TSong/WShuriken/JPunch is I'd hope that some action is taken on them.

As for Meloetta and Volcanion, my issues stem with just how well they abuse the broken moves, though Meloetta comes mostly from just how limited our special walls are so I wouldn't immediately ban it along with the three broken moves. Volcanion would also become a lot worse without Torch Song or Water Shuriken and so would be generally more bearable. It was really clear just how crazy Volcanion was in DLC1 (I even started running Toxic to catch it off-guard on the switch), and DLC2 hasn't really changed much so far on the special side at all. As for the other Torch Song users (moths, Heatran, Rotom-H/W sometimes but not anymore hopefully), they're only really any problem with Torch Song because its so easy to get going with it past Volcarona because funny moth.

Overall, ban Jet Punch, Water Shuriken, Torch Song, Kingambit, and maybe Weavile, give meta time to settle before nuking Meloetta if it's still stupid.

 

[Giagantic]

Echoing thoughts with Fissure here past a Tera ban since I believe that's because of the broken moves and not because of the mechanic. A LOT of the issues I've had with STAB this gen are still present in DLC2, with the most egregious being Loaded Dice Water Shuriken, Jet Punch, Meloetta, and Volcanion. If Wicked Blow wasn't unbanned then I'd argue Kingambit is like mostly fine? But now you literally need Great Tusk to not autolose to it. Water Shuriken alone has led to bans like Manaphy and the otherwise godawful Araquanid (seriously this was never really good until this gen, i wonder why?), and Jet Punch is really stupid on a ton of Pokemon like Urshifu-RS, Ogerpon-W, Poliwrath (yes that thing), and a stupid number more, with only really Tera to consistently answer? It doesn't help that offensive Tera compounds this issue, but removing Tera wouldn't help in the slightest since you really need something like Beak Blast or a specific check to somewhat handle these anyway. I somewhat agree with Giagantic's stance of banning moves only when they're egregious, but surely with all the proof of how stupid TSong/WShuriken/JPunch is I'd hope that some action is taken on them.

As for Meloetta and Volcanion, my issues stem with just how well they abuse the broken moves, though Meloetta comes mostly from just how limited our special walls are so I wouldn't immediately ban it along with the three broken moves. Volcanion would also become a lot worse without Torch Song or Water Shuriken and so would be generally more bearable. It was really clear just how crazy Volcanion was in DLC1 (I even started running Toxic to catch it off-guard on the switch), and DLC2 hasn't really changed much so far on the special side at all. As for the other Torch Song users (moths, Heatran, Rotom-H/W sometimes but not anymore hopefully), they're only really any problem with Torch Song because its so easy to get going with it past Volcarona because funny moth.

Overall, ban Jet Punch, Water Shuriken, Torch Song, Kingambit, and maybe Weavile, give meta time to settle before nuking Meloetta if it's still stupid.

I will re-state it but I believe that removing elements that make a metagame unique is a bad thing... Removing moves unless absolutely necessary is basically hurting the integrity of STABmons as a concept. a concept about having access to various moves that changes the dynamics of various Pokemon. Thus I'd rather remove Pokemon long before moves...

Torch Song, Water Shuriken, and Jet Punch are not broken within a vaccum. There are multiple other elements in play that contribute to their power, most of which comes from the Pokemon themselves rather then the move.

• Volcarona + Torch Song is fishy because of multiple factors, high SPA, native access to Quiver Dance, Defensive/Offensive Tera, in short why would I push for ban of the move when all of these attributes contribute to the whole, is Torch Song broken on every Fire type, or even close to many, it isn't... Just because a move makes a Pokemon exponentially more powerful does not mean it should be banned as a first resort. I've even pushed Volcarona bans in the past just due to how it can win on the spot as it abuses common elements within the metagame.
• Volcanion similarly isn't just one factor that makes it strong but multiple, high spa, Torch song, Water Shuriken, good overall bulk, water immunity syngerizing with Tera Ground / another defensive Tera, etc...

These are the two users currently in the tier that most belly ache about regarding Torch Song and no pokemon has been explicitely banned as a direct result of Torch Song, the closest would be Chi-Yu but that was primarily due to a variety of factors such as higher powered stab access and it's own high spa + ability. I don't see any argument that can justify banning the move first when not a single Pokemon has been banned or suspected as a result of the move. A somewhat outrageous but accurate example would be the idea of banning specific moves because without them a specific pokemon wouldn't function to nearely the same effect such as targetting setup so Magearna can be in the tier as a great utility / defensive mon, or banning offensive ghost moves so Flutter Mane can remain in the tier. Does this seem logical, no, not really because as I said before it is multiple elements in play many of which come from the Pokemon themselves rather then the move.

This extends to all the primary points of contention in STABmons:

1. Surging Strikes: The move is at best a good sidegrade to Wave Crash dealing less damage, ignoing defensive boosts / drops, being weak to rocky helmet, lacking recoil, but having a significantly lower potential power ceiling. The closest pokemon that has been banned is Azumarill but even this was due to a combination of factors (Huge Power, Good typing, great movepool with access to restricted Belly Drum, and setup moves / recovery and so forth).
2. Jet Punch echoing the last move, is strong, no doubt, but the metagame isn't without resistances and the primary archetype where this move is seen in play has been nerfed heavily as a result of it's potency (Rain teams with the Damp Rock ban). Aside from potentially Azumarill, no other ban can be said to be somewhat as a result of Jet Punch. The Politwrath point is a fishy example at best, I've swept RoFnA with Belly Drum Politoed once, doesn't mean it is good, it was a combination of factors the lead to this foremost amonsgt them is Belly Drum which combined with priority has always been fishy and broken at times in various OMs (Triage + Belly Drum / Unburden + Belly Drum in AAA for example and in STABmons there is a reason Belly Drum has been restricted as even with Quick Attack a normal type could feasibily sweep teams).
3. Water Shuriken is the most clear example with bans that the move played a major part in but even this isn't just because Water Shuriken rather in the case of Manaphy and Araquanid there were multiple factors from their bulkiness to their access to Tail Glow to the latters Water Bubble one of the most powerful Amps in the game... Water Shuriken isn't broken on the vast majority of Water's, nor is it unbeatable.

As a whole, none of these examples paint a clear cut picture of some rampant broken move without any means to checking regardless of user. This isn't a case of Shed Tail that was so broken it was wholly banned from the tier, including on native users. Nor is this a Shift Gear scenario which enables any physically capable steel to sweep teams. The unbanning of Wicked Blow and the attempt to unban other stuff was to make sure this policy of Pokemon Bans > Move Bans was accurately represented in a fair manner.

TLDR: Moves should be banned as a last resort, not a gut reaction in an attempt to preserve a couple of Pokemon.

Regarding Tera, it is definitely a problem, it is both a problematic element and a solution to the problem which is somewhat contradictory but ultimately unless the community really demands a Tera re-suspect it is out of our hands. I will not endorse overwritting the past suspect with a council vote. We will probably hold a survey some time in the first part of the new year to access Tera and the wants of the community regarding it, so best express yourself then.

I hope I was clear with this post the direction I believe best for STABmons, and best from a tiering policy perspective in regards to consistency. Feel free to criticize it and state your opinions, this is just my stance as TL not the entirety of the councils views.

 

[Giagantic]

As Predicted, Kingambit has proven too much for STABmons and is now banned!
​

With a 4 to 1 ratio of ban to don't ban, Kingambit has been yeeted from the tier. The reason, some may claim, will undoubtedly be down to the recently released Wicked Blow, and while it is certainly a factor in the ban it is not the sole defining reason. First off, there have been calls and votes done towards banning Kingambit long prior to this change, as recently as the Gigaton Hammer ban, in which we decided to ban the move and watchlist the mon itself. After that point Kingambit basically didn't drop an iota in terms of viability simply shifting from Gigaton Hammer to Behemoth blade/bash or running dual priority in Bullet Punch and Sucker Punch. The principle factors involved in it's ban are actually twofold, first being it's access to Supreme Overlord which resulted in upwards of a 1.5x damage amp late in the game, the other is it's great dual typing, access to various priority, and general well-rounded stats aside from speed which was somewhat circumvented by the priority. This resulted in a extremely terrifying lategame presence with loads of 50/50s due to the nature of Sucker Punch with games being decided solely on whether you predicted the Sucker or not. As a whole, Kingambit has been a domineering presence in STABmons that was arguably broken prior to Wicked Blow, and only made a bit worse with the latters reintroduction into the tier, worse enough to result in a near unanimous vote.

Tagging Kris for implementation, <3!

Also, NeonJolteonWasUsed has joined the council to makeup for IntheHills busy life.

But that isn't all to this story as Weavile will be the subject of an upcoming suspect test that is now posted here: CLICK ME!

 

[Talpr0ne]

Fun little set to use with Wicked Blow
Greninja @ Punching Glove
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Surging Strikes
- Jet Punch
- Swords Dance

You can also use Crawdaunt for this, it hits even harder but it's much slower and bad at using Tera due to Adaptability.

 

[Giagantic]

As a result of the recent blind vote, Weavile has been banned from STABmons!

Tagging Kris for implementation!

 

[Giagantic]

Darkrai has been unbanned from STABmons!

With Darkrai's recent stint in OU, the STABmons council has unanimously decided to unban it to see it's effect on the metagame. We will be watching closely to see if it is in any way overwhelming but we doubt that due to the metagame having many good dark resists.
​

Tagging dhelmise for implementation, thanks as always!