Sneasel has been banned

[Goddess Briyella]

1) Is Sneasel broken?

As high as its Speed is (making opposing Scarf obsolete unless they hit 16 Speed) and as strong as its physical offense is combined with the STAB it gets from the newly buffed Knock Off, I would say Sneasel is absolutely broken. The only Pokemon to wall both of Sneasel's STABs are Carvanha (base 20 defenses) and Pawniard, but Sneasel has access to Brick Break. The vast majority of the tier stands no chance at all, as they cannot rely on their items, and Sneasel's STABs + Brick Break are borderline impossible to take from such a high Attack stat.

2) Is Sneasel making Little Cup not fun?

Since you absolutely MUST have like 2 or 3 checks to it on a team in order to have any chance of playing well in the tier, I would say yes. Since it largely contributes to there being only about 12 Pokemon being used in a tier of hundreds available, I would say yes. I like that Sneasel is giving rise to Fire types like Growlithe this generation, and as to be expected, when there is anything notably threatening in a tier, sets will be created to attempt to foil the threat, and this considerably affects teambuilding, which in turn can leave out a huge number of Pokemon in favor of the ones who have a chance against this one thing, which has happened in this case. I don't like to reference BW/BW2 Little Cup this way in XY Little Cup discussions, and I know this metagame is not developed yet, but having the metagame the way it is right now is reminiscent of the issue BW/BW2 LC had with only a handful of mons being considered viable, with the rest cast to the side, never seeing any usage. Whether something is fun or not is often noted as a matter of opinion, but I think most players agree that Sneasel objectively makes LC less enjoyable because of how strong it is and how forceful it is of what your team is allowed to carry if you want to have any kind of chance of winning at all. I honestly believe that people who say Sneasel isn't broken only say that because they have adapted to be able to deal with it, without realizing that they only ever run 6 out of 12 or 13 Pokemon on one team, and the variety that brings to LC is almost nothing compared to what it could be if teambuilding wasn't practically restricted like this.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

For the people who actually want to have fun and not use the same old mons in every team, I'd say they are pretty annoyed by the combination of 1 and 2. I've heard a lot of complaints, especially in the Little Cup room on PS, and they weren't baseless and without reason. It wasn't just "ugh fuck Sneasel". That said, I have never heard or seen anyone say they would refuse to play because of Sneasel, but I wouldn't put it past them. Fortunately, we do have a good bit of level-headed users who would rather work toward improvement than just say "Fuck it" and leave.

 

[TUO]

I have been rather inactive in this stage of Little Cup, but I have quite a bit to say about Sneasel and what I think about the current meta.

1.) Is Sneasel broken?

When something is considered broken, it means that it is way too good for the meta, and is a detriment to the balance. This would be when the Pokemon in case has a superior way to win against another player in comparison to the rest of Pokemon. I personally believe Sneasel fits that case here. A team with a Sneasel tends to be better than a team without a Sneasel, although of course there are quite a handful of exceptions. Sneasel can fit in many roles in an offensive team. Sneasel fits as a revenge killer, wallbreaker/mid-game opening, and sweeper on a lot of offensive teams, and does extremely well in that job. Sneasel poses as an offensive threat constantly, and I believe that it has much scarier and viable options to win in comparison to other Pokemon in the metagame. Of course as I said, there are some exceptions. Sneasel isn't necessarily so broken that every team needs to run it. Some teams can continue to be competitively viable without a Sneasel. But actually, that thought of Sneasel being a requirement for a good team isn't that stupid of a thought, as 75% of the teams in the sample archive involve Sneasel, and the only ones that don't are quite different and somewhat gimmicky. (not in a bad way though, I love that Charmander team) Due to its versatility, there isn't a strong reason NOT to put Sneasel into most teams, which goes to prove that Sneasel is generally superior to the other Pokemon in LC. Sneasel is almost undoubtedly agreed to be the best Pokemon in LC, and to some Sneasel is a marginally better pick than every other Pokemon in the meta, which imo is quite enough to prove that Sneasel is broken.

2.) Is Sneasel making Little Cup not fun?

I honestly don't think a Pokemon that completely removes the fun of LC would even have a thread to be discussing it. Sneasel doesn't make LC not fun, but I believe Sneasel does remove some interesting and fun things about LC. Some XY LC games of mine have pretty much got me lost because my Sneasel got Scald Burned (This happens a lot to me I might add) or I got a random hax crit on someone's Sneasel. Other things I've seen games be decided by is the Sneasel speed tie, on who Brick Break's who first. Of course, this isn't that common of a situation, but what happens to Sneasel very often greatly influences how the match goes more than other Pokemon do. Sneasel has so much game impact, that the game of LC strategy tends to be based on the ability of Sneasel makes games less fun for me, as my mentality is "holy shit I need to keep this for Sneasel" or "I can lure and Knock Off this with Sneasel and try to win from there".

Let's take the example of what I think is a really fun Other Meta, Tier Shift. This might sound really odd but I did play quite a bit of Tier Shift and consider it to be one of the most fun metas I've played (when people played it). The sheer amount of diversity in offensive and defensive threats still make the game interesting, even though it is centralized around weather. Your mentality changes every game as you have to play different against Whiscash, Swanna, or Sun Based teams. The meta is very diverse even if centralized, and games are different many times. It adds so much more thought processes rather than the textbook thing of Sneasel in LC like "Knock Off this, switch out Knock Off that sweep".

3.) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

I have heard of some people really just not playing LC because of these Pokemon, although that's quite the minority. LC is still playable and rather enjoyable with Sneasel around, but Sneasel can make things annoying and hard for people to play it. Honestly the only thing that makes me not play LC much is how much you have to rely on a couple mons for you to beat the opps team, and have them be brutally hax'd, rather than a solid team effort strategy that comes in for the really fun and good metas.

Treecko, Heysup I'll have data for you in a few hours (like, tomorrow morning).

Edit: or now. I guess my scripts are pretty fast when they're not processing OU.

I'm keeping the stats to myself for now, but I'll share relevant details. Note that I'm only looking at Pokebank--to talk about anything else with regards to long-term plans is just absurd.

Sneasel is on 34% of teams, followed by Gligar at 30% and Swirlix at 24%. That's nowhere near as bad as Mienfoo at its peak (wasn't it around 45%?). For 1850 stats, the top three are still the same, and the numbers are 44%-41%-32%.

And if it's counters you want, here's what I've got for you:

+----------------------------------------+
| Checks and Counters                    |
| Timburr 73.088 (87.21±3.53)            |
| (26.5% KOed / 60.7% switched out)|
| Croagunk 58.059 (75.32±4.32)           |
| (21.3% KOed / 54.0% switched out)|
| Swirlix 54.243 (67.17±3.23)            |
| (42.7% KOed / 24.5% switched out)|
| Meditite 51.494 (63.98±3.12)           |
| (25.8% KOed / 38.2% switched out)|
+----------------------------------------+

These checks and counters are sadly not reliable enough (outside of Timburr) and you generally still need another Poke to back you up against Sneasel like a Snubbull or a Growlithe to keep yourself honestly safe against Sneasel. Croagunk isn't really as bulky as Timburr, and can't take Ice Punch that well. Swirlix gets nailed by Poison Jab and people are just too stupid to use it right, and Meditite (even the stats show) isn't really that great of a counter or switchin, just an emergency check.

I apologize if my limited experience hampers the quality of my post, and I hope I helped

 

[Heysup]

Treecko, Heysup I'll have data for you in a few hours (like, tomorrow morning).

Edit: or now. I guess my scripts are pretty fast when they're not processing OU.

I'm keeping the stats to myself for now, but I'll share relevant details. Note that I'm only looking at Pokebank--to talk about anything else with regards to long-term plans is just absurd.

Sneasel is on 34% of teams, followed by Gligar at 30% and Swirlix at 24%. That's nowhere near as bad as Mienfoo at its peak (wasn't it around 45%?). For 1850 stats, the top three are still the same, and the numbers are 44%-41%-32%.

Interesting. My point still stands though. Against top opponents, you are going to see Sneasel a large amount of the time.

And if it's counters you want, here's what I've got for you:

+----------------------------------------+
| Checks and Counters                    |
| Timburr 73.088 (87.21±3.53)            |
| (26.5% KOed / 60.7% switched out)|
| Croagunk 58.059 (75.32±4.32)           |
| (21.3% KOed / 54.0% switched out)|
| Swirlix 54.243 (67.17±3.23)            |
| (42.7% KOed / 24.5% switched out)|
| Meditite 51.494 (63.98±3.12)           |
| (25.8% KOed / 38.2% switched out)|
+----------------------------------------+

Timburr is the only one that can actually counter it out of those 4. And it's unreliable at best. See the Victim of the week threads for Croagunk and Timburr explanations, but Swirlix and Meditite aren't even close to being counters. Swirlix is straight up 2HKOed by Ice Shard/Fake Out + Ice Punch and even Max/Max+ Meditite with Eviolite is 2HKOed but that's an ineffective set in the first place.

With perfect prediction those Pokemon can force Sneasel out once (Timburr 2 times (more if you let it Drain Punch)) but are all potentially and likely 2HKOed.

The counter argument is not one that I would bring up if you're trying to prove Sneasel's weakness.....

 

[Antar]

Aren't those all 2HKOed?

So? Many of the Pokemon Sneasel "counters" will 2HKO *it*. This ties into my point from earlier--you really need a free switch to get Sneasel into play. Yanma OHKOes *easily* with Bug Buzz. Missy usually carries HP Fighting. Honedge OHKOes with Iron Head or Sacred Sword.

This ties into a broader point: the LC metagame is, or rather should be, fundamentally different than the other Standard metagames--since its inception, it's revolved around the OHKO, not the 2HKO. LC stall should be an oxymoron, and it's so incredibly wrong that it was not only a *viable* playstyle, but I'd argue the *best* one in Gen V LC (backing that this claim: my Gen V LC team, which finds itself easily near the top of the ladder, and contains a 3x regen core, a Leech Seed-Protect Ferroseed and revolves around Hail stall. This team has only two weaknesses: misplays and hax). People who are arguing that Sneasel is broken because it 2HKOes its counters miss the fact that, before Eviolite, *everything* 2HKOed everything else (why else would Focus Sash have been the dominant item?). That's the way Little Cup WAS, and, IMO, it was better that way.

My point: the discussion of whether Sneasel is broken is fundamentally a discussion of what we want the Gen VI LC metagame to look like. If we want LC Stall to be a thing, then fine, yes, it's broken. But if we want Gen VI LC to be more like Gen IV LC, which I personally believe was loads more fun, then it doesn't need banning.

Heysup: That's no different than how it was in Gen V with the Three M's. In terms of 1850 stats, they're actually quite a bit *more* centralized (using September's stats we have Mienfoo at 45%, Missy at 41%, Murkrow at 39%).

 

[TUO]

So? Many of the Pokemon Sneasel "counters" will 2HKO *it*. This ties into my point from earlier--you really need a free switch to get Sneasel into play. Yanma OHKOes *easily* with Bug Buzz. Missy usually carries HP Fire. Honedge OHKOes with Iron Head or Sacred Sword.

This ties into a broader point: the LC metagame is, or rather should be, fundamentally different than the other Standard metagames--since its inception, it's revolved around the OHKO, not the 2HKO. LC stall should be an oxymoron, and it's so incredibly wrong that it was not only a *viable* playstyle, but I'd argue the *best* one in Gen V LC (backing that this claim: my Gen V LC team, which finds itself easily near the top of the ladder, and contains a 3x regen core, a Leech Seed-Protect Ferroseed and revolves around Hail stall). People who are arguing that Sneasel is broken because it 2HKOes its counters miss the fact that, before Eviolite, *everything* 2HKOed everything else (why else would Focus Sash have been the dominant item?). That's the way Little Cup WAS, and, IMO, it was better that way.

My point: the discussion of whether Sneasel is broken is fundamentally a discussion of what we want the Gen VI LC metagame to look like. If we want LC Stall to be a thing, then fine, yes, it's broken. But if we want Gen VI LC to be more like Gen IV LC, which I personally believe was loads more fun, then it doesn't need banning.

Heysup: That's no different than how it was in Gen V with the Three M's. In terms of 1850 stats, they're actually quite a bit *more* centralized (using September's stats we have Mienfoo at 45%, Missy at 41%, Murkrow at 39%).

I'm actually gonna try to point something out about this point here. This is basically going against a point for your personal preference of a Gen IV-like meta. LC does currently revolve around killing a lot of things fast, but with the conception of Eviolite, it hasn't been the case and has more been centered around bulky offense. XY LC on the other hand has a lot of freed Pokemon, and escalates the game to constant offense and as yous aid Antar, the OHKO everything. I definitely understand where you are coming from though on the concept. However, there is a lot of fundamental problems of keeping Sneasel for the sake of making the metagame more offensive. First, as said most competitively viable offensive teams are based around Sneasel, and are played because the usage of Sneasel in offense is generally superior to almost everything, even making Murkrow much more uncommon (the old Gen V beast). Even if Sneasel promotes a offensively based metagame, which might be a good thing. Sneasel still makes a kind of offense that relies on one or two mons, and Sneasel is just much better than other options, which is pretty much what makes it broken, not us wanting to play more defensively

 

[Rowan]

1) I think The Unlucky one brings up really strong points about how many teams use Sneasel as their win condition. Teams can be very effective with just Sneasel and 5 bulky/offensive pivots and many games can come down to who plays their Sneasel most effectively. The worst thing about Sneasel is that it doesn't really need much support to sweep because it fills the role of Wall Breaker, Revenge Killer and Late Game Sweeper in one set. Once it gets in early-mid game, it can either really easily kill the Pokemon in play, force the opponent to sack a Pokemon or it can severely cripple its own checks/counters with Knock Off, ready for sweeping late game. As many other people have said, it's almost too easy when playing with Sneasel as you barely have to think about teambuilding and all you have to focus on is getting Sneasel in as much as possible.

2) As for question 2, I think this leads to a really boring offensive metagame which is based around choosing which Pokemon is best to sack so you can revenge kill Sneasel or get your own Sneasel in. Though the team that has Sneasel in play will always have an advantage as the Pokemon that revenge it (Meditite, Timburr and Croagunk) are easily taken advantage of by Gligar (which is then threatened, in turn, by Sneasel, though it cannot switch in as well). I often don't see the point (if you're bothered about doing well) in not running a trio of Sneasel, Gligar and one of the 3 fighting-types with priority. It's incredibly centralising and therefore not very fun to play sometimes.

3) It's certainly not discouraging me to play against people on #littlecup and on ladder, because I can still have fun experimenting with other threats and testing the plethora of new options available to us in XY. However, if we got into serious tournament play, it would be incredibly boring as many teams would just be based around Sneasel, similar to RBY Ubers where battles would based around Mewtwo or GSC when matches would be based around Snorlax. These might be more extreme examples, I don't exactly have masses of experience in these tiers.

After clarifying my own thoughts in this thread and reading the thoughts of others, I would not be opposed to a Quick Ban at all.

 

[Antar]

However, there is a lot of fundamental problems of keeping Sneasel for the sake of making the metagame more offensive.

What I said was "if Sneasel then no stall." That *does not* imply "if no Sneasel then stall." To make stall viable in Gen VI would require the banning of Yanma, Vulpix, Tangela and Swirlix as well, just to name a few.

Furthermore, despite my anti-stall rant, my point *was not* that we should have Sneasel to keep away the stall. My argument was to counter arguments from Swan Songs and Treecko that Sneasel should be banned because you can't run stall in this current metagame--the point being that eliminating that particular playstyle's viability should not be an issue for Little Cup the way it is for OU and the other "standard" tiers.



I want to point out something else: many people point to Sneasel's ridiculous speed as a reason it's broken. But the speed tiers are fucked this gen anyway, thanks to Sticky Web (anyone who hasn't should try running Surskit--it's surprisingly good). After Sticky Web, Sneasel's speed drops to 15 (if I remember my rounding) max, which puts it on par with Magnemite and Scraggy and below Dwebble, Pawniard, Kabuto, Eevee, Surskit, Chinchou... It's also crippled by WoW or T-Wave, which are mainly issues for switching in, since it can be one-shotted by attacks on most Pokemon who run such moves, but goes to my earlier point.

 

[ryan]

It's not just stall either though. Bulky offense, which should have no problem prospering in an LC environment (particularly with Eviolite), takes a huge hit, and I would argue it takes an even bigger hit than what LC stall does because LC stall can afford to run otherwise mediocre Pokemon like Sticky Hold Shellos that actually do kind of -counter- Sneasel. Bulky offense has to run multiple checks to Sneasel if they hope to beat it. Some people might call that "adapting," but I call it being forced to overprepare for a Pokemon you're only going to encounter about half the time.

 

[prem]

1) yes i think sneasel is broken. Just having checks and counters does not mean a pokemon is broken, because it can have a lot of negative effects on the metagame; Sneasel has a few checks and counters and basically does everything in one set. Sneasel revenges, sneasel breaks walls, sneasel cleans end game, sneasel supports everything, sneasel scares everything. Yes there are a variety of checks to sneasel, but all of them cannot do it consistently through out the game. Knock off being buffed like how it was is probably the biggest reason why it became so good. Its best stab move is basically a 95 power bp move with the ability to remove an item which means so much in little cup is insane. you can literally spam that move throughout the game and it will either kill something, or it would have already supported the team because pokemon without eviolites and pokemon who dont get their berry juice struggle in life. With that high speed and even ice shard it lets it both revenge and clean up easily. its already faster than the entire tier, but with ice shard it lets it kill both scarfers and just prevent other priority from beating it. In the victim of the week thread, i could easily think up of a situation where the "counter" loses because it cant keep doing it. As a hyper offense player, the only way i can beat it is by outpredicting the sneasel because it is 100% no think mode; bring it in on something that dies, then just press knock off / ice punch and something will either die or be serverly weakened. at the point it might be forced out because it cannot rely on the 2hko anymore but you can just bring it in later and it will do the exact same thing. against a balanced team / bulky offense team alll it really ahs to do is support the team with knock off until the rest of your team is strong enough to win if sneasel diddnt kill everything all ready.

Sneasel is way too good also because of how items shape the meta way too much. basically if you want to have longevity or bulk in LC you need to have berry juice or eviolite. With knock off Sneasel has basically removed eviolite from the game on half the pokemon on the opponents team so they can be OHKOed by anything. It really is a problem with berry juice though because all i see if people saying everything is 2hkoed by sneasel; most pokemon who hold a berry juice are going to be flat out OHKOed by sneasel though. I was the first person to say the hype on sneasel was too great because everyone and their mother was still running eviolite which does make sneasel seem somewhat underwhelming because it fails to ohko anything and is easily forced out. but because the meta has shifted to more berry juice, its become even easier for sneasel as it basically ohkos everything in the tier, making berry juice ineffective

2) i dont really believe sneasel is making the tier not fun. What it really is doing is preventing innovation and just new sets because its impossible to use somethings when it just cannot do a single thing with sneasel around. I know Dracoyoshi8 made a post about it because he was trying out all this new stuff that could be really cool but didnt work if a sneasel just outsped always and ice punched. That part is actually not fun because i like trying new thigns and beating people with unothodox stuff but I cant because the exact same pokemon shits on me everytime. The tier itself is still really fun, but sneasel is limiting options for teambuilding which can be defined as "not fun".

3) Lets just go with briyella's answer because thats mine except she knows how to write lol.

It's not just stall either though. Bulky offense, which should have no problem prospering in an LC environment (particularly with Eviolite), takes a huge hit, and I would argue it takes an even bigger hit than what LC stall does because LC stall can afford to run otherwise mediocre Pokemon like Sticky Hold Shellos that actually do kind of -counter- Sneasel. Bulky offense has to run multiple checks to Sneasel if they hope to beat it. Some people might call that "adapting," but I call it being forced to overprepare for a Pokemon you're only going to encounter about half the time.

There's nothing wrong with having to run multiple checks for a pokemon on your team because you should realistically have that for every big metagame threat. its a problem when sneasel can just get around all of those checks and counters, or inhibit them from doing other things throughout the game with knock off. All ive noticed from Sneasel's checks and counters is that they might prevent sneasel from winning, but they can never actually prevent Sneasel from doing its job; probably the biggest reason as to why i think Sneasel is broken.

 

[Heysup]

So? Many of the Pokemon Sneasel "counters" will 2HKO *it*. This ties into my point from earlier--you really need a free switch to get Sneasel into play. Yanma OHKOes *easily* with Bug Buzz. Missy usually carries HP Fire. Honedge OHKOes with Iron Head or Sacred Sword.

OK well I think we need to clear a few things up.

1) I'm not sure countering means what you think it means. The VotW thread has the definitions so I'll just quote it:

definition of "counter" and "check"

COUNTER:

A certain set COUNTERS another set when the defending Pokemon is able to switch in even with a few layers of hazards AND weather against any opposing attack and cripple or KO the opposing Pokemon. Depending on Speed and boosts, the ability of the defending Pokemon to tank a certain amount of hits is crucial yet variable depending on the scenario. Minimal amounts of prediction should be needed to counter the opposing Pokemon and the counter should still be able to handle the threat in multiple different scenarios.

CHECK:

A certain set CHECKS another set when the defending Pokemon is either able to beat the opposition 1 v 1 or switch in on certain but not all attacks with minimal indirect damage and threaten to cripple or KO the opposing Pokemon. The difference between check and counter is that oftentimes, prediction is needed and checks are not 100% secure answers to the set in question but can still work most of the time.

2) If you're using Sneasel to switch into things no wonder you don't think it's broken. That's literally the one way you can misuse Sneasel.....it's everything EXCEPT a pivot (or a wall). The only time I'll switch it in is if I'm randomly predicting stuff from like a Defog Gligar or Roosting Vullaby or something.

3) As the previous two points suggests, no one has ever claimed Sneasel "counters" anything. It just has a monstrous list of Pokemon it can come in and check.

Heysup: That's no different than how it was in Gen V with the Three M's. In terms of 1850 stats, they're actually quite a bit *more* centralized (using September's stats we have Mienfoo at 45%, Missy at 41%, Murkrow at 39%).

I fail to see how that does anything to undermine my argument. My argument is that Sneasel is broken and it's not something that isn't having a massive impact on the metagame (double negative whatever).

EDIT @ Below: I'm not sure I would consider from 44% to 50% a "gross exaggeration". I didn't know the actual stats so that's not a horrible guess. If that's the crux of your argument against mine's credibility.....I don't think it's a very strong one.

 

[Antar]

Heysup I was mainly taking issue with your statement that Sneasel is on 50% of teams, which is a gross exaggeration. The bottom line is that if you're trying to make arguments on brokenness or overcentralization based on usage stats (not saying that's what you were doing, though , you're out of luck, since it's used no more than Mienfoo.

It has definitely surpassed even Gligar/Missy of earlier Gens of their 50%per game rate.

The bottom line is that this is simply not true, no matter how you slice it.

 

[ryan]

For the people who actually want to have fun and not use the same old mons in every team, I'd say they are pretty annoyed by the combination of 1 and 2. I've heard a lot of complaints, especially in the Little Cup room on PS, and they weren't baseless and without reason. It wasn't just "ugh fuck Sneasel". That said, I have never heard or seen anyone say they would refuse to play because of Sneasel, but I wouldn't put it past them. Fortunately, we do have a good bit of level-headed users who would rather work toward improvement than just say "Fuck it" and leave.

This is a really good point that you brought up and that prem called attention to in his post, but I think it misses the bigger picture. The problem (to me at least) isn't so much that it's deterring LC players from continuing to play LC so much as it is deterring newer players from continuing to play LC. I tried to get into the meta, but it was really hard for me to do because of how difficult Sneasel is to play around. I also think that's another important distinction; it isn't that hard to plan around Sneasel, but it is incredibly hard to play around. What I mean is that if you slap a Timburr and a Growlithe on your team, on paper, Sneasel isn't going to be a problem, but in practice, it's still a giant pain in the ass for reasons that have been covered throughout this thread. But now I'm getting sidetracked, so back to the main point: no, LC players probably won't pack their bags and leave because of Sneasel, but newer players and older players trying to get into LC very well might and in some cases have eschewed playing LC in favor of playing something else where there is a greater variety in viable teams and Pokemon. Hell, I'm about to go back to playing BW tiers at this point because Mega Kangaskhan is ruining OU for me, and I don't even want to touch Xerneas in Ubers lol. Maybe I'm just part of a vocal minority here, and if so, it sucks that more people aren't expressing their thoughts and feelings on this suspect. However, we all know what kind of effect Sneasel has had on XY LC, and even if I'm in the minority that's willing to stop playing because of it, there are plenty that feel it's broken.

 

[Antar]

Treecko, the lower-barrier-to-entry argument is fine, especially in a tier like LC that *desperately needs* a larger playerbase, but the problem is where do you draw the line? I know plenty of people who didn't play Gen V LC because dealing with the three M's without using two of the three was a difficult prospect. More to the point, you're always going to have a decently large group of people who insist on using shit pokes in the tier (Aipom, Phanpy, Zigzagoon, Togepi, Pichu, Zubat, ANY of the starters... I could go on for a really long time) and then complain when they don't do well. Obviously, I've just used the slippery-slope fallacy, but it's something to keep in mind. Yes, we want more people playing LC. No, we should not make tiering decisions designed to try to draw in more players.


At this point, I don't imagine I'm going to be able to convince anyone that Sneasel shouldn't be banned, but I also think it's true that none of the pro-Sneasel-ban people are going to manage to convince me or anyone else who shares my opinion. The bottom line is that it's not cut-and-dry. So whether or not you believe Sneasel should be banned or not, it seems clear to me that there is a lack of consensus for it to be quickbanned. At least, that would be my conclusion upon reading this thread.

 

[ryan]

Oh, I totally agree that we shouldn't base a ban totally off of that. If that was the case, I'd have been pro-ban for Murkrow, Misdreavus, and Mienfoo last gen, but I definitely wasn't. I was mostly just pointing that out because it was a question posed in the OP, so I felt it was relevant information to add. Even though we don't want to base a ban solely off of the Pokemon deterring newer players from playing, it's definitely still something to keep in mind, and even if that wasn't a factor, I'd still be pro-ban for the other factors I brought up in my own original post. But I do think there is probably a sizable group of people who are willing to use competitive Pokemon in LC that still don't want to play it with Sneasel around. Anyways, I'll leave that topic alone now because everything that I feel needed to be said on it has been and because it's kind of derailing the thread!

 

[prem]

Treecko, the lower-barrier-to-entry argument is fine, especially in a tier like LC that *desperately needs* a larger playerbase, but the problem is where do you draw the line? I know plenty of people who didn't play Gen V LC because dealing with the three M's without using two of the three was a difficult prospect. More to the point, you're always going to have a decently large group of people who insist on using shit pokes in the tier (Aipom, Phanpy, Zigzagoon, Togepi, Pichu, Zubat, ANY of the starters... I could go on for a really long time) and then complain when they don't do well. Obviously, I've just used the slippery-slope fallacy, but it's something to keep in mind. Yes, we want more people playing LC. No, we should not make tiering decisions designed to try to draw in more players.


At this point, I don't imagine I'm going to be able to convince anyone that Sneasel shouldn't be banned, but I also think it's true that none of the pro-Sneasel-ban people are going to manage to convince me or anyone else who shares my opinion. The bottom line is that it's not cut-and-dry. So whether or not you believe Sneasel should be banned or not, it seems clear to me that there is a lack of consensus for it to be quickbanned. At least, that would be my conclusion upon reading this thread.

I think its just a difference on what constitutes something as broken. As fatty mentioned this is just a question that should've been answered before and honestly there is no clean cut answer to this on site. I completely agree with you that sneasel is managable and not completely untouchable. there are ways around it and people have been using those methods so games do not just turn into bring sneasel out and win the game. but at the same time it really is unfair in a way that you dont have to try to make it effective. if it comes in something is going to die or be severely weakened most of the time because its just there. its not actually terrible hard to get in and there are too many situations in which a player will have nothing to bring in on a sneasel because of how good is.

 

[Heysup]

At this point, I don't imagine I'm going to be able to convince anyone that Sneasel shouldn't be banned, but I also think it's true that none of the pro-Sneasel-ban people are going to manage to convince me or anyone else who shares my opinion. The bottom line is that it's not cut-and-dry. So whether or not you believe Sneasel should be banned or not, it seems clear to me that there is a lack of consensus for it to be quickbanned. At least, that would be my conclusion upon reading this thread.

It appears fairly cut-and-dry to me. A quick scan of the thread (using only the ones that actually answered the question) gave me 12-13 "yes" and maybe 2-3 "no" or "not quickban worthy". The loud debate going on right now is between only a very small sample size of people who posted in this thread (prem, treecko, yourself, myself) and still the ratio would be 3:1. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not trying to convince the opposing party that Sneasel isn't broken, I'm just trying to convince the on-the-fence people and the observers (which looks to have worked somewhat).

That said, quickbanning is really not a good term to be used for a metagame that's been out for a long time already but that's blara's fault even if it's technically correct (i.e. banning something without going through the process).

 

[The Quasar]

My little cent about that. Sneasel is amazing for two reasons: priority moves (Ice Shard and enhanced Knock Off) and great speed. But it's not broken because his speed can weakened or overcome; Sneasel is not the only pokemon on BW LC Ubers we find again, there is for example Vulpix and his Drought, jointly with Tangela/Chlorophyll. This scenario could be troubling who play with Sneasel regardless. And Swirlix/Unburden/Dazzling Gleam could be a strong check:

204+ SpA Swirlix Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 20-26 (90.9 - 118.1%)


Then Sticky Web could downgrade the speed to make obvious vulnerable and not a few Sneasel weakness (uncovered if he's slower). And Sewaddle has both (Sticky Web/Chlorophyll). So the scenario is the following: very strong but....unaccustomed to climate change, suffering to some of the other BW LC Ubers, a relevant number of counters/checkers. And finally he could find SR on battlefield.

You can use it but you can play without. I would wait about it.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

This is a really good point that you brought up and that prem called attention to in his post, but I think it misses the bigger picture. The problem (to me at least) isn't so much that it's deterring LC players from continuing to play LC so much as it is deterring newer players from continuing to play LC. I tried to get into the meta, but it was really hard for me to do because of how difficult Sneasel is to play around. I also think that's another important distinction; it isn't that hard to plan around Sneasel, but it is incredibly hard to play around. What I mean is that if you slap a Timburr and a Growlithe on your team, on paper, Sneasel isn't going to be a problem, but in practice, it's still a giant pain in the ass for reasons that have been covered throughout this thread. But now I'm getting sidetracked, so back to the main point: no, LC players probably won't pack their bags and leave because of Sneasel, but newer players and older players trying to get into LC very well might and in some cases have eschewed playing LC in favor of playing something else where there is a greater variety in viable teams and Pokemon. Hell, I'm about to go back to playing BW tiers at this point because Mega Kangaskhan is ruining OU for me, and I don't even want to touch Xerneas in Ubers lol. Maybe I'm just part of a vocal minority here, and if so, it sucks that more people aren't expressing their thoughts and feelings on this suspect. However, we all know what kind of effect Sneasel has had on XY LC, and even if I'm in the minority that's willing to stop playing because of it, there are plenty that feel it's broken.

I apologize if perhaps I was a little unclear, and I'd like to provide clarification. I agree with your views, particularly your emphasis on how newer LC players might be deterred from continuing to play XY Little Cup. I am pretty sure the purpose of this thread is to see where everyone's head is regarding Sneasel's position in the metagame, and the newer players we don't want deterred are not barred from expressing their thoughts on the matter, and I have personally encouraged them to express themselves. Newer players have just as much of a say here as the regulars and the veterans, and newcomers such as Melonz, Swan Songs, and copycatcat have provided input already, as other newer players also have the opportunity to do here. I think we all can agree that Sneasel is somewhat overpowered and that it screws the viability of a huge number of Pokemon, and I would not mind seeing it gone so that the metagame can be healthy and have variety. I am aware of the deterrence Sneasel might cause to make players (particularly newer ones) less likely to stick around, and that is the main reason I oppose Sneasel being allowed to stay―I will keep playing regardless, although I myself would also prefer Sneasel gone. One of the most important things in my humble opinion here is maintaining a metagame that is fun and that will attract more users so that our playerbase/community can continue to grow. I don't think there is a bigger picture, only that there are different perspectives, and sometimes one post isn't enough to express everything that should be said.

Heysup I was mainly taking issue with your statement that Sneasel is on 50% of teams, which is a gross exaggeration. The bottom line is that if you're trying to make arguments on brokenness or overcentralization based on usage stats (not saying that's what you were doing, though , you're out of luck, since it's used no more than Mienfoo.



The bottom line is that this is simply not true, no matter how you slice it.

While overcentralization is an inevitable side effect of Sneasel's existence, the more relevant topic here is whether it's broken or not. Usage statistics can show this and that, but honestly, Mienfoo and Misdreavus are nowhere near the level of threatening that Sneasel is, and therefore I think comparing usage statistics is somewhat irrelevant to this topic. It's the beginning of XY Little Cup―people are going to want to use different things. The fact that Sneasel might have usage similar to other "viable" mons only shows to me that people are willing to step outside the box and not be a whore by using Sneasel on every team. I've talked to many players and they honestly consider it a huge honor if you make a competitive XY LC team "without resorting to using Sneasel" (among other things like Sturdy Juice Smash but that's another topic). I've seen it stated that Sneasel is like Ike in Super Smash Bros Brawl if he was fast as fuck, and I found it hard to disagree. But the point is: Sneasel is pretty overpowered and objectively unhealthy for the metagame, and I don't think usage statistics should be used as a measuring stick to compare Sneasel to anything else at this time. When a player sees Mienfoo on a team, they don't cringe and think "OMG this shit AGAIN" like they do when they see Sneasel. I'm not pointing out who's right or wrong here, I'm just saying that the usage data (whether speculated or exact) is good to have on hand for the sake of awareness, but it doesn't put Sneasel's threat-level on par with Pokemon in LC who are shown to have similar usage... at all.

 

[dsr95]

...Well, my opinion on this:
1) It's not broken per se. It's a very solid Pokemon to use indeed but I ran through replays of LC in a little research and I only found Sneasel found in 4 out of 10 teams (Top of the ladder players, not just anyone). Things like Gligar and Swirlix were the most used more than it but this isn't about any of those 2...yet. Sneasel has a check in Timburr which can scare it away and you can use the momentum to double switch or whatever comes to mind. Also, Swirlix (with unused Berry Juice) can just take a hit and trigger Unburden and set up Substitute, Calm Mind, Belly Drum... Next up is Meditite. I'm not sure if it can take a Knock off followed by Ice Shard but I do know that most Sneasel won't stay in because of... Bullet Punch. The same goes for Croagunk. Also, switching sneasel in isn't something you can just...do. It's weak to Stealth Rock as well and I'm pretty sure everyone has to use that in every team nowadays. So Sneasel won't switch in much and remember you can just use priority moves to take it down. We got Drain Punch users who can take a hit from it and heal back and murder it. Scraggy can take a Knock Off like nothing happened and Dragon Dance as Sneasel switches out or stays in order to get Drain Punched (prediction chance but the risk of Sneasel dying isn't really worth it). Tirtouga's Aqua Jet can do some nice damage and it doesn't get OHKOed and there's also Dweeble who can do the same but with Rock blast can't switch in on Sneasel but still). Lastly... you want a healthy metagame? (Even though I believe that's a dumb thing to say) If sneasel is banned... I'll laugh at everyone saying Gligar's broken, Tangela's broken, Meditite is broken, Carvanha is broken... We'll go back to banning all those unbanned Pokemon simply because Sneasel can take care of them, but then it won't be around. If I recall correctly, the one who opened up this discussion stated he will not be taking more quick bans into consideration... well, my point was made in the last sentence. You'll get more quick ban requests from people if Sneasel's away, I'm sure of this. Specially seeing how versatile Gligar and threatening is already. So I would say Sneasel's not broken.

2) What makes a Metagame not fun is when there's something good that cannot be handled easily and its checks can be eliminated easily. We got Drain Punch users who can take a hit from it and heal back and murder it. Scraggy can take a Knock Off like nothing happened and Dragon Dance as Sneasel switches out. When you make a team you consider the top threats in order to make sure your team is not weak to any of them. Same with Sneasel. Pack a Mach Punch Magby if you want (I did it and it worked pretty well for me) or you can take a Timburr or you can take a screens user, etc. What is not fun is when people want to ban things because they don't want to counter it. I believe Sneasel doesn't take the fun out of LC.

3) If a player want to leave because they don't have the skill to handle a certain Pokemon, then that's their problem and I wouldn't call that a player. Though I don't care much for players who aren't willing to play with the hand they're given, if you catch my drift.

My vote: Sneasel shouldn't be banned here and now as it will bring a bunch more Pokemon to become actually broken and we'll eventually go back to having a lot of banned Pokemon.

As a side statement, I would like to say that Ubers LC would be a very fun and good thing to do. Little Cup is basically an OU tier for the un-evolved Pokemon and I think it deserves an Uber LC tier just like OU has its own. A place where players can play LC with little to no rules and use Pokemon like Scyther and actually find answers to those banned Pokemon.

 

[Anthiese]

Ahem...

I would like to say that from my experience, Sneasel is a really strong mon. I would go as far to say that it's broken in a few aspects. It's got nice coverage, blazing 23 Speed and man does it pack a wallop.

I dont want it banned since i run it (lol) but it is fun to revenge other sneasel with my own, plus it takes care of the plague you all call swirlix.

I ahve to say that Snubbull and Growlithe seems like good checks, they have both nullified my chances of a sweep with sneasel alone.

(EDIT) I sound selfish af

 

[SoDangerLP]

I feel as though it should, purely because I find it obnoxious that I have to build my team around countering a single poke, that I have to have a counter to it, because more likely than not, I will run into it. It reminds me of how it felt during the blazekin in OU era.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

1) Is Sneasel Broken?
Sneasel is quite a broken LC mon. Very, very few counters (which Sneasel has potential of taking out still) threaten Sneasel, and if they do their job, they are crippled to the point of death fodder for after the deed. It is something that needs a fix. You need to take in account of hazards, switch-ins, and potential crits (even though it's a stretch). When a tier forces you to use a select few pokemon to counter a single mon that still has a 2HKO potential on them, there is a problem, as you can prepare counters for their counter, since their use will be increased unless Sneasel is banned. The "Victim of the Week" thread is a clear example of why Sneasel should be banned, since technically each mon posted takes too much damage from Sneasel to be considered a counter.

2.) Is Sneasel making Little Cup not fun?
Sneasel making LC more/less fun is obviously opinionated, and shouldn't be an asked question. The question that should be asked is: "Is Sneasel a fair Little Cup pokemon?"

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
From what I have seen, yes actually. That is a problem. I have tried tutoring my friend in LC ever since gen 6 LC beta. They come to me with complaints about, guess who, Sneasel every time. Of course my answer is, there isn't much you can do except surf LC threads about potential Sneasel checks and counters (if any of them can be called a counter). Even Eviolite mons can't do anything because Knock Off's 1.5x damage bonus when they are holding an item negates the rise in defense and knocks it off of them for the rest of the game.

If this isn't convincing read Raseri or Goddess Briyella's posts about this issue, since their responses pretty much summed up every reason in a genius way (thanks you two!).

It's gotten to the point where I have seen teams built around only Sneasel as their saving grace. I have seen annoying SD Baton passers to Sneasel which makes me reply with "gg" when they successfully pull it off or eliminate the mons I have that are the only ones who stand a chance against Sneasel. It wouldn't really be a problem if it wasn't for Knock Off, rendering a lot of LC mons useless/near useless since items play a key role in LC to make up for the low level 5 stats they have.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

2) What makes a Metagame not fun is when there's something good that cannot be handled easily and its checks can be eliminated easily. We got Drain Punch users who can take a hit from it and heal back and murder it. Scraggy can take a Knock Off like nothing happened and Dragon Dance as Sneasel switches out. When you make a team you consider the top threats in order to make sure your team is not weak to any of them. Same with Sneasel. Pack a Mach Punch Magby if you want (I did it and it worked pretty well for me) or you can take a Timburr or you can take a screens user, etc. What is not fun is when people want to ban things because they don't want to counter it. I believe Sneasel doesn't take the fun out of LC.

Scraggy dies to Brick Break after Knock Off from Sneasel's Life Orb set (its most common set), so it can't switch in and expect to be able to do anything. If it switches in on Ice Punch or Brick Break, it will die next turn to Brick Break, so Scraggy is a 100% no-go. It's total destruction that requires very little thought, and anything that switches in gets its item removed and/or takes serious damage, and Sneasel's super-high Speed means you won't be able to get in a hit before taking the death blow. Every single Drain Punch/Mach Punch user in the tier still takes a huge chunk of damage from Sneasel on the switch-in, and Sneasel can just switch out to a Ghost or Gligar to avoid Mach Punch (or Bullet Punch in the case of Meditite).

Before anyone tries to argue that Meditite has Ice Punch to hit Gligar as it comes in, keep in mind that if you choose incorrectly it can and will cost you the match in many cases. If you go for the Bullet Punch, Gligar comes in and immediately shifts the entire momentum, threatening Meditite with a OHKO. If you go for the Ice Punch, Sneasel outspeeds and finishes you off. Good game. Ask yourself, do you really want games to be regularly decided by something simple like this? And even if you choose correctly and land the Ice Punch on Gligar, you still have Sneasel to deal with, and Meditite isn't hard to outspeed outside of Bullet Punch, which another mon can take advantage of without much trouble. It should also be noted that despite its Pure Power ability, 196+ Atk Bullet Punch from Meditite doesn't even OHKO 0 HP/0 Def Sneasel, and it only does between half and two thirds to Sneasel with a Jolly nature. If Meditite is Scarfed to make up for its mediocre Speed, it won't be able to go for Ice Punch after using Bullet Punch anyway, and that's IF the Scarf isn't Knocked Off already.

It might also be argued here that Stealth Rock helps to limit the amount of times Sneasel can come in, but Defog's buff made that very easy to remove. Also, some people tend to forget that Sneasel has its own priority and that it's faster than Mach/Bullet Punch, so it usually doesn't have to switch out to avoid Mach/Bullet Punch late game because it can just outspeed them with Ice Shard for the kill. The ONLY priority attack that outspeeds Sneasel's Ice Shard in LC is Extreme Speed. There's Extreme Speed Dratini, but Misdreavus can just switch in to Extreme Speed unharmed and burn it the following turn. If Dratini stays in and goes for Dragon Dance, getting OHKOed by Ice Punch is a huge and blatant risk.

Edit: It sounds ridiculous but it's true that Sneasel outspeeds Scraggy at +1 as well.

 

[TUO]

dsr95

Not banning something for the sake of keeping other things more balanced. If Tangela, Vulpix, Meditite, and Gligar are broken after Sneasel is banned, ban that thing too. Of course, that doesn't mean we will keep banning the best Pokemon in the meta, but we want to ban until we reach a stable metagame that is as competitive as possible. If Sneasel makes the metagame less competitive, then ban it. Also, the checks you mentioned (Meditite, Swirlix, Scraggy and Croagunk) aren't very reliable for the reasons showed in the Little Cup Victim of the Week of Gen 6. Also, proving that these counters are unreliable and doesn't keep you safe from Sneasel, Sneasel will always have a scary game impact per game, which makes it really annoying to deal with, and a general pest when even trying to play LC.

Also I see a bit of weird stuff to point out about your answer to the 3rd question. Even a team that really properly prepares for Sneasel, still has a huge chance to fail against Sneasel. There is honestly little reason NOT to put Sneasel in a team. You can take the fighting game mentality of just rocking with how the meta is, but since we have the opportunity to make the metagame better by banning a broken component, it doesn't even matter if everything else becomes broken now, as we are one step closer to a better meta.

 

[The Quasar]

My basic idea that's Snaesel's power force is the combination priority move/high speed. Only this is objectively for metagame. But sometimes I have forced to switch out Sneasel, so it's not so easy switch in him. I think it means that it's not so broken.
Like so he is objectively strong, there are more than one right way to make his weaknesses uncoverede. Because without his speed (Sun/Chlorophyll or Sticky Web, but why not even a trick room, i have just try it) is very easily defeated. You must not underrate him, but you can find more than one solution.

Finally my vote is three NO for questions.