Sneasel has been banned

[Antar]

Goddess Briyella That's a much larger list than the Gen V LC prereqs: Misdreavus, Mienfoo, Murkrow, pick two.

I don't recall facing *any* team with an ACRE above 1600 that didn't have at least one of the three.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Antar:

My main team in BW2 LC was Dwebble/Abra/Scraggy/Snover/Magnemite/Riolu and I topped the ladder and held the #1 position fairly easily with a win/loss of 70-8. I know some people might find the ladder to be a bad indicator to judge the skill of a truly good player, but I'm only mentioning how it did on the ladder because you mentioned ACRE, which means the ladder.

I don't mean to get off the topic of Sneasel, but I am making the point that a team last generation could be successful without the inclusion of the three you are using for your comparison.

Try making a team without Meditite, Croagunk, Swirlix, Snubbull, Murkrow, Growlithe, Larvesta, Timburr, Yanma, Dwebble, Tirtouga, and Sneasel, and see how far you get in XY Little Cup.

Additionally, when I said this, I wasn't meaning that successful teams aren't made right now without just one or two of these given twelve mons. I was meaning that EVERY successful team that is built right now is made with SIX (at the very least, four) of these twelve. These are seriously overused to the point that they take up whole teams, just these! But this is what Sneasel has forced upon players if they want to have a chance of winning.

 

[Celestavian]

I firmly believe that Sneasel is broken and unhealthy for the XY LC metagame, though I'm unsure if it meets the requirements for the quickban. I'll go point-by-point here:

1) Is Sneasel broken?

Sneasel has proven itself to be the single most threatening thing in Little Cup at the moment. There is no other Pokemon in the tier who can just come in and start smashing without any set-up like LO Sneasel can. Getting it in on something it can OHKO is, at the worst, a guaranteed loss of a Pokemon, or at the best, a now-Evioliteless check to Sneasel who can no longer switch in anymore, making it a 2HKO the next time Sneasel comes around. There is a lot that Sneasel can OHKO in this metagame thanks to how powerful the Ice-type is in LC. A large percentage of the top threats in LC (also going a bit into 5th gen threats here) are weak to either Dark or Ice, including Murkrow, Misdreavus, Gligar, Honedge, Lileep, Tangela, Yanma, and Abra. Those that don't are still not safe, since Knock Off cripples anything that switches in. Pokemon like Porygon, Chinchou, Lickitung, and other defensive Pokemon that could take a hit before now find themselves unable to switch into anything anymore, and are practically useless. Grimer and Shellos are the two Sticky Hold users in LC that come to mind, but neither resist Dark, meaning they will just keep eating that increased Knock Off damage until they are knocked out. Ice Shard finishes of weakened Pokemon while also destroying revenge killers like Scarf Murkrow and Gale Wings Fletchling. The Swords Dance set is something I have yet to see on the ladder, so I'll refrain from passing judgment on that for now. On the defensive side, 55/55/75 defenses are very good for a sweeper with as much power as Sneasel, meaning that it can take powerful resisted and neutral hits and still have enough HP left to knock out its attacker. As an example, LO Murkrow's Brave Bird does not OHKO Sneasel at full health

Another important thing to note is that Sneasel entirely lacks counters. People in the past have said the same about stuff like LO Murkrow, but that at least had a niche counter in the form of Aron. Nothing can switch into Sneasel because of Knock Off, and thus your only hope of beating it is with multiple checks. Timburr stands out since it has 4x SE priority and a resistance to Knock Off, and Scarf Mienfoo just barely outspeeds Sneasel for an obvious OHKO while not being weak to Ice Shard. Swirlix can beat Sneasel the first turn it's in because of the Speed boost from Unburden (assuming Sneasel used Knock Off or Ice Punch to trigger the Berry Juice), but after that it gets iffy. Stealth Rock hurts Sneasel, but since it crushes Ghost-types into the ground, spinning on a team with Sneasel is very easy to do. Unless, of course, the other team has Sneasel, since it also happens to rip apart all the common spinners in the metagame. Everything else in the metagame simply stands no chance against Sneasel's power. This is why I believe Sneasel to be broken.

2) Is Sneasel making Little Cup not fun?

I don't know about you guys, but I personally find facing a Sneasel in almost every match to not be fun at all. Furthermore, I also find using it to not be that much fun either. After all, there's no real strategy to using Sneasel. You just come in after one of your Pokemon has either fainted or used U-turn, then wreck something. Nothing is immune to Knock Off itself, so there's no risk in using it unlike something like Mienfoo's HJK. As such, the key point I'm trying to make here is that Sneasel is way too low-risk for a high-reward, which makes being on both sides of it boring and unfun. Unlesss you really don't have a clue what you are doing, Sneasel sweeps too easily to keep it in the metagame.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Obviously people are still playing the tier, and I think there are plenty of people who have fun using OP stuff, so I wouldn't say it has made a huge impact in deterring people from playing. That said, I question the importance of this point considering that not all players play the same way. Some players love to abuse OP Pokemon, such as Scyther. Nobody questions Scyther was broken, but for every player turned away by it being in the tier, I'd bet there's another player itching to take it out for a spin. Even I sometimes find it fun to just piece together as much broken stuff as I can on one team and just see how far I can get on the ladder.

As such, what I'd like to ask is: Is Sneasel deterring serious players from playing the metagame? I can answer from personal experience that yes, it is a detriment to the tier to have such an obviously broken Pokemon in the metagame. Outside of having other engagements, my main reason for not playing much Gen 6 LC is that I don't find it fun to play Sneasel Wars, and I also don't want to become adjusted to the metagame in its current state. I know that there will be a few Pokemon that will be banned eventually, and I personally would rather not get used to using them or facing them. Some say that has little effect on them, but for me personally, I am put off by huge sweeping changes like that which might occur once suspect testing gets underway. In terms of the original question, I don't think that Sneasel has truly prevented too many users from playing, I can say that some serious players such as myself are indeed put off by having Sneasel in the metagame.

 

[macle]

can we please stop talking about 5th gen lc or else i'm gonna start bringing vgc into this discussion.

 

[Heysup]

We are also talking about statistics in an irrelevant fashion. Stats are there to back up arguments like "Sneasel is heavily impacting the metagame" and showing that people are actually preparing for it - both being true based on some partial stats (thanks to Antar for going out of his way to get those btw). However, stats are NOT a measurement of power and that's been a very common theme in this thread as a way to suggest a Pokemon was better than Sneasel in relation to a metagame it was in. That's not a valid argument to support the claim simply because stats aren't a measurement of effectiveness (though it can be correlated), it's just how often a Pokemon is used - nothing more.

 

[chimp]

It seems we really need to knock sneasel off this tier.

hehe

 

[Electrolyte]

Sneasel is definitely broken.

I'm going to be supporting this notion with some analysis of the word "broken" and showing how Sneasel fits this definition pretty exactly.

I'm going to start off my defining "broken" in general terms based off of the existing discussions in this thread. Seeing as everyone in this thread agrees that "broken" Pokemon are Pokemon that have extremely negative impact on their respective metagames, I'll be evaluating Sneasel that way. Because of this definition, an evaluation of Sneasel's effects on the metagame should be the most important topic of discussion in this thread. Still, "negative impact" is a very general description. What kind of negative effect does Sneasel have on the metagame?

1. Sneasel takes away a lot of strategy and skill connected with playing LittleCup.
Note that this is very different from just a general "does it have valid counters or not" discussion. Even something with a lot of counters can take away strategy from the metagame. Strategy is based off of having to use prediction at least sometimes in order to grab a win, unless you have an advantage team-wise. Sneasel takes away a lot of strategy in the game because a. it doesn't need to set up to hit absurdly hard and fast and b. it has powerful, crippling moves with little or no consequence. Sneasel has the highest Speed stat in the tier by leaps and bounds as well as one of the highest attack stats in the tier. It doesn't need to boost to outspeed AND OHKO things right off the bat, something nearly everything else in the meta needs to do in some form or another. Sneasel's Knock Off is also not only absurdly powerful but also absurdly crippling with absolutely no consequences if spammed. Not even Sneasel's counters can defeat it and ever escape without getting crippled by a forced loss of their item. To top it off, Knock Off does hit ~135 BP after STAB against opponents with items, and can deal serious amounts of damage, OHKOing many Pokemon of the tier. In battle, Sneasel is a Pokemon that doesn't require much skill to use and destroy things with. Obviously, this also makes LittleCup less fun, as there isn't much enjoyment in battles where you are simply clicking Knock Off multiple times to beat opponents.

2. Sneasel does not conform to standard team support reliance.
This connects a bit to my above statement but focuses more on the teambuilding aspect of Pokemon. Sneasel is a very standalone Pokemon that can sweep with little or no support. This might not seem relevant but has extremely negative impacts on the meta and team structure. Sneasel is a very low risk high return Pokemon, and it doesn't even need anything from its teammates other than occasional hazard removal support which isn't even always necessary. It can muscle through most of its counters by itself with repeated switching and multiple attacks, essentially wearing them out. Because of this independence, Sneasel is a Pokemon that people can slap onto teams successfully without any extra thought concerning synergy or strategy. Other powerful Pokemon such as Gligar or Murkrow have relevant needs for team support and are restricted by common weaknesses and the need to set up in order to deal a lot of damage. With Sneasel, it is not the case. As I stated beforehand, even if the opponent successfully takes down Sneasel its legacy isn't over- because the loss of items don't ever fix themselves until a new match starts. This crippling ability suits all sorts of strategies and again has a relatively low risk factor, making it extremely easy to blindly smack Sneasel onto a team and be done with it. This significantly impacts teambuilding fluidity, uniqueness, and skill level required negatively, decreases metagame skill and knowledge, and makes teambuilding and battling very stale and boring.

3. Sneasel has few specific and valid roles in the LC metagame.
If I were to ask you 'what does Sneasel counter that no other Pokemon counter more effectively,' your list would probably consist of 'Gligar' and maybe 'Murkrow and Misdreavus' too if you thought real hard. Ghost-types in general are easily countered by attacking their secondary types, other Flying-types are uncommon and walled by other Pokemon, Ground-, Grass-, and Dragon-types are uncommon, and Psychic-types can be countered in other more metagame friendly ways. Sneasel is not a Pokemon you would commonly carry specifically to counter / handle one Pokemon, as I have proven in my two above points. Gligar is less of a major threat now that Flying Gem is illegal and Murkrow / Missy are uncommon now, so people don't usually carry Sneasel for those purposes. Sneasel simply just doesn't counter anything that would be otherwise very broken. Although the list of things Sneasel CAN do is extensive, it is EXTREMELY shallow. It can revenge with Ice Shard, but priority is already extremely common. It can Knock Off opponents, but Knock Off doesn't beat anything specifically and cannot serve as a reason to keep Sneasel in the tier for reasons I have covered in my first observation. Sneasel's Speed helps check 'things', but again this is a very unspecific list and vague enough that other, less 'broken' Pokemon can easily take the role. Sneasel's abilities are expansive but shallow, useful but unspecific, and awesome but not necessary. There is little reason for us to keep Sneasel in the tier.




Hence, Sneasel has multiple negative impacts on the metagame and very few specific, positive impacts that can counteract the negativity and justify Sneasel's stay in the tier. With Sneasel around, the amount of skill it takes to play and teambuild is severely reduced, making the meta uncompetitive and stale. We really cannot keep it here, unfortunately.

-------------------------------------

The good side is that I have personally noticed that Sneasel has actually made LittleCup more popular, HOWEVER the popularity increase was sparked by its release along with the release of many other previously banned Pokemon. Their release is what has sparked curiosity in LittleCup, not really their existence. I don't see less people coming in with Sneasel's existence because its existence sparks curiosity, but I ALSO don't see its ban chase people away because there are still a lot of other fun Pokemon and mechanics to explore.

 

[BadPandaPancham]

^ Listen to the man Electrolyte. Concise and accurate. We've brought up Sneasel's stats, which are high on the charts compared to LC mons. We have brought up it's effectiveness and amount of use, and it is incorporated into pretty much every Pokemon XY LC team out there. We have brought up the pro's and the con's, way too many pros for such little cons. It's use ensures either the crippling of the other team or a win for you, not much else to say. A pokemon that is so strong in the LC metagame that can easily cripple the other team completely even if it doesn't get a single KO, is extremely problematic since it cripples and kills, which shouldn't be. If Knock-out never existed, it would be a very good LC mon, but definitely not this strong and overpowered. I mean, it even gets brilliant coverage with decent bulk. A 4x weakness to Fighting means nothing when they all die too fast to do anything against Sneasel. You can't rely much on Fake Out, since you will go before Sneasel, but Inner Focus will mean Sneasel won't even flinch. Any other priority move (Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, Quick Attack, Sucker Punch, etc.) aren't very reliable since Sneasel carries STAB Ice Shard.

Is the issue really not seen here? It's tipping the scale and unbalancing everything. When a Pokemon can easily be crowned king of the tier, there is a problem. It's use has turned the idea off to friends of mine who I am trying to get into the LittleCup meta.

 

[Garchompi]

3. Sneasel has few specific and valid roles in the LC metagame.
If I were to ask you 'what does Sneasel counter that no other Pokemon counter more effectively,' your list would probably consist of 'Gligar' and maybe 'Murkrow and Misdreavus' too if you thought real hard. Ghost-types in general are easily countered by attacking their secondary types, other Flying-types are uncommon and walled by other Pokemon, Ground-, Grass-, and Dragon-types are uncommon, and Psychic-types can be countered in other more metagame friendly ways. Sneasel is not a Pokemon you would commonly carry specifically to counter / handle one Pokemon, as I have proven in my two above points. Gligar is less of a major threat now that Flying Gem is illegal and Murkrow / Missy are uncommon now, so people don't usually carry Sneasel for those purposes. Sneasel simply just doesn't counter anything that would be otherwise very broken. Although the list of things Sneasel CAN do is extensive, it is EXTREMELY shallow. It can revenge with Ice Shard, but priority is already extremely common. It can Knock Off opponents, but Knock Off doesn't beat anything specifically and cannot serve as a reason to keep Sneasel in the tier for reasons I have covered in my first observation. Sneasel's Speed helps check 'things', but again this is a very unspecific list and vague enough that other, less 'broken' Pokemon can easily take the role. Sneasel's abilities are expansive but shallow, useful but unspecific, and awesome but not necessary. There is little reason for us to keep Sneasel in the tier.

I don't understand the point of this argument. Let's forget for a second that Sneasel is broken and needs to go, but how can you possibly say that it doesn't fullfill valid roles just because it happens to be a fast, frail and powerful offensive pokemon? Its role is to kill things, plain and simple. If you need an offensive powerhouse that works as a revenge killer, late-game sweeper and wallbreaker Sneasel is your weasel of choice. The argument you should use is the exact opposite: Sneasel happens to be the absolute best offensive pokemon in the tier right now, overshadowing every other option and that's why its presence is not beneficial to the metagame.

 

[Heysup]

His argument was most likely in reference to others saying we need to keep it so that other Pokemon are in check.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I don't understand the point of this argument. Let's forget for a second that Sneasel is broken and needs to go, but how can you possibly say that it doesn't fullfill valid roles just because it happens to be a fast, frail and powerful offensive pokemon? Its role is to kill things, plain and simple. If you need an offensive powerhouse that works as a revenge killer, late-game sweeper and wallbreaker Sneasel is your weasel of choice. The argument you should use is the exact opposite: Sneasel happens to be the absolute best offensive pokemon in the tier right now, overshadowing every other option and that's why its presence is not beneficial to the metagame.

Sneasel serves as a high-powered offensive threat as well as a hard-hitting wall breaker in all stages of a match, as well as a late game cleaner, with high reward and almost no consequence to balance it. It does not serve what should be a specific valid role in the metagame because it's just too powerful and it can do way too many things to cause way too much damage/crippling to a whole team without any kind of sacrifice. The metagame isn't made worse simply because Sneasel is a better offensive option than everything else, it's made worse because of how much it screws up important metagame aspects like balance, variety, and teambuilding. The limitations demanded by Sneasel's existence are ridiculous.

I mean, it even gets brilliant coverage with decent bulk. A 4x weakness to Fighting means nothing when they die too fast against Sneasel, and you can't rely on Fake-Out (Inner Focus) or other priority moves (because of Ice Shard) when facing this monster.

Just something small.

Fake Out is +3 priority, so it actually does outspeed Sneasel's Ice Shard, but it should be noted that Fake Out will not flinch it despite its 100% flinch rate because of Sneasel's Inner Focus ability.

 

[Caledrith]

I logged into Smogon for the first time in a while just to post something about Sneasel.

1. Is sneasel broken?
He has very high base stats compared to the rest of the tier. In addition, he carries STAB Knock-off, which this Gen, may be a bit too powerful. Ice shard and other various moves he may carry just add to the fact that sneasel does far too much damage without setting up to not be considered broken in Little Cup. If you look, there are other pokemon like sneasel that weren't originally designed to have a evolution that are too powerful now that they are little cup available (looking at you scyther).
2. Is Sneasel making little cup not fun?
I believe it isn't. It isn't quite right to require a team to carry AT LEAST 1 if not two checks to sneasel in order to have a chance to win. Every team should carry a sneasel if they want a much higher chance of winning. Seeing Sneasel all the time is getting monotonous, and its not fun.
3. Is a combination of 1 and 2 dettering individuals from playing little cup?
As for my self, heck yes. I love little cup. I'm ranked 11th on both Smogon and Pokemon-Online's Gen 5 little cup ladders. Now thats not saying much, but the reason I don't play Gen 6 is because of Sneasel (and Gligar :) ). I would really like a ban for sneasel, but I'm concerned what will happen if we ban sneasel, as many other pokemon will lose a major check/counter.

My two cents.

 

[Ray Jay]

So I thought there was just this gentlemens agreement that you just dont use sneasel unless youre a tool... am I incorrect

 

[BadPandaPancham]

Just something small.

Fake Out is +3 priority, so it actually does outspeed Sneasel's Ice Shard, but it should be noted that Fake Out will not flinch it despite its 100% flinch rate because of Sneasel's Inner Focus ability.

I said Ice Shard in parentheses next to where it says "other priority moves." I didn't mean Fake Out, as I also said it has Inner Focus so you will get a hit with only little benefit, but thanks, I can see why It was confusing, I'll edit it right now. :)

 

[prem]

So I thought there was just this gentlemens agreement that you just dont use sneasel unless youre a tool... am I incorrect

yeah rayjay all the good kids follow this agreement (fuking heysup)

 

[blarajan]

These posts are inappropriate but I'll allow them because fuck Heysup.

 

[dsr95]

Try making a team without Meditite, Croagunk, Swirlix, Snubbull, Murkrow, Growlithe, Larvesta, Timburr, Yanma, Dwebble, Tirtouga, and Sneasel, and see how far you get in XY Little Cup.

I made a team using none of these and I haven't been beat by Sneasel yet. On the contrary, I have OHKOed most of the Sneasel and only losing none or 1 mon on it. The team consists of Scraggy, Shellder, Gligar, Tangela, Honedge and Froakie. Sneasel can be managed in so many ways and none of you are seeing this. Screens, rocks, scarf users, priority moves, sturdy users, intimidate users... and let's not forget... sticky web.
The only way Sneasel is broken is if its ONLY answer was unviable or situational. None of those are situational or unviable. If you don't wish to use those then how can you say you're a LC players?
Seriously, you all just need to think outside the box instead of relying on the same Pokemon over and over. All I hear is Timburr this and timburr that but there's many other answers as I stated before.

 

[Shouting]

I made a team using none of these and I haven't been beat by Sneasel yet. On the contrary, I have OHKOed most of the Sneasel and only losing none or 1 mon on it. The team consists of Scraggy, Shellder, Gligar, Tangela, Honedge and Froakie.
Sneasel can be managed in so many ways and none of you are seeing this. Screens, rocks, scarf users, priority moves, sturdy users, intimidate users... and let's not forget... sticky web.
The only way Sneasel is broken is if its ONLY answer was unviable or situational. None of those are situational or unviable. If you don't wish to use those then how can you say you're a LC players?
Seriously, you all just need to think outside the box instead of relying on the same Pokemon over and over. All I hear is Timburr this and timburr that but there's many other answers as I stated before.

Sneasel can OHKO or 2HKO all six of those pokemon, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.

Screens? Hilariously, Sneasel can actually break them with Break Break. The only LC pokemon that (commonly) runs screens is Bronzor...or maybe Natu too I guess, both of which are torn to shreads by Sneasel.

Stealth Rock is not that hampering to Sneasel in the least. Gilgar is an excellent partner for Sneasel and can defog hazards. The fact of the matter is that hazards aren't easy to keep up anymore, and Sneasel still pretty much kills at least one thing every time it switches in, so even with stealth rock up it can still accomplish it's goal.

Priority? Sneasel has priority too you know, so you'll have to eat one before you can get yours off. Sneasel out speeds almost every single priority in LC.

Sturdy? Really? You mention that using stealth rock checks Sneasel yet any Sturdy user is 2HKO'd with stealth rock.

Scarf? okay, but they can only revenge (and they need to have at least 16 speed and NOT be weak to Ice) all of them lose if they switch in. It doesn't really prevent it from doing it's job.

Intimidate? Growlithe can be 2HKO'd by Knock Off after Stealth Rock. Snubbull gets one switch in max, and even then, Knock Off + Poison Jab (which I have seen before) has a good chance of KOing Berry Juice Snubbull after stealth Rock.

Sticky Web? That doesn't always solve the problem. What if the team you are facing has both Sneasel and sticky web as well?

 

[prem]

so im going to steal something from the gengarite thread because i think it fits GREAT

Also we don't ban based on counters. Otherwise, Hydreigon would be Uber and Kyogre would be OU. We ban on how well it does its job despite all its difficulties.

you can say oyu havent lost a game to a sneasel thats fine. but there are a lot of variables that come with games youve played on the ladder like plyer skill. yeah you should use them but you have to think more than that.

Sneasel is easy mode in that it works even if you have that counter. you cant switch anything into sneasel besides snubbull, timburr, and growlithe for the most part because it destroys everything. i mean i know its hard to get sneasel in, buut the moment sneasel gets in it is GUARANTEED to kill at least one thing basically. there is almost no way to prevent it if you switch out, you will be knocked off and promptly 2hkoed, and if you stay in you will probably just die to knock off unless the other player just overpredicted or something. you can bring timburr in, get knocked off, and then it can switch out. it preformed its job perfectly well of supporting the team by knocking off and literally nothing happened to it. sure you can double switch but are you going to risk that when your oppponent can just stay in and ice punch? i wouldnt because i dont want to lose 2 pokemon that quickly to one monster, but i guess thats some risk that you have to take to beat it. the point is it is too effective and just beating things because of how strong it is.


ugh i should really learn to organize my thoughts before posting....

 

[Goddess Briyella]

dsr95:

Shouting covered all the points I was going to speak on, and honestly I've already proven most of what you said wrong in my previous posts.

Specifically, Scraggy can only outspeed Sneasel after either TWO Dragon Dances, or after one Dragon Dance IF Sneasel's Speed is dropped by Sticky Web. A well played Sneasel with the proper Defog support (which any competent player will carry) is not going to let either of those happen for free, so that is highly unlikely. Additionally, as I stated earlier in this thread, Scraggy dies to Brick Break from Life Orb Sneasel after its Eviolite is removed by Knock Off. Scraggy is NOT a reliable answer to Sneasel and should not be passed off as one.

Literally nothing on the team you mentioned can switch into Sneasel or deal with it even half decently well throughout a match.

Seriously, you all just need to think outside the box instead of relying on the same Pokemon over and over.

The irony here is amazing. The point you're trying to prove with this statement is actually exactly what Sneasel is causing players to do when they build teams, because almost nothing outside of the twelve you quoted from my post (Meditite, Croagunk, Swirlix, Snubbull, Murkrow, Growlithe, Larvesta, Timburr, Yanma, Dwebble, Tirtouga, and Sneasel) have any kind of security on a team when players know they will have to face it.

So I thought there was just this gentlemens agreement that you just dont use sneasel unless youre a tool... am I incorrect

Pretty much, that's the case, no joke. The way I heard it from multiple players is that "it's a huge honor if you don't use Sneasel" in the current XY Little Cup metagame.

 

[Sergetank]

Hello, I'm sort of new to LC. I have a 60/33/2 record on Pokebank LC so I'm not that great. But I wanted to weigh in on the Sneasel debate.
I'm not very smart or anything, I've just recently become sick of Rotom-W/Talonflame in OU so I started playing LC. I tried my hardest to steer clear and use pokemon I like and were useful. In my time, I have faced many a Sneasel; not once have I actually lost to it, my team has a lot of pokemon that manage to counter it somehow.

But I would vote for a ban.

It's fast. It's way too fast. I wanted to see exactly how fast for myself, and I have no choice scarfmons. Without fail, every time, it's always hit first. At one point I had Taillow and Voltorb on my team to see if they had a chance of outspeeding it. It was not successful. And it didn't use Ice Shard on my Taillow either, just ice Punch.

It's strong. I have Heysup's Timburr on my team, and I am fairly confident that if I did not have that or my Aron, Sneasel would have rolled through the majority of my team with ease. Even my CurseMunchlax needs to either use up it's berry juice or get two curses up to be safe.

It's durable. At one point I had a vacuum wave Croagunk on my team, with quiet nature and invested spatk. I've met sneasels that survived that gunk's vacuum wave, and it's terrifying.

Sneasel has counters. But in my mind I've always sacked the pokemon that sneasel is sent out against, because why would I switch in and at lower health? Losing a pokemon so I can safely switch in, ha. If you switch into a Sneasel, that pokemon is going to be crippled way hard. It's unavoidable.

If Steel still resisted dark, if Sticky Hold didn't let you take max Knock Off damage, Sneasel would be a lot easier to check. But now, too many things have opened up in it's favor.

I can see that, if it goes though, a bunch of pokemon will go with it. Meditite, Yanma, Gligar maybe. Those three are stopped cold by Sneasel ( heh ). I don't know how I feel about too many pokemon being banned, but working towards a sort of balance instead of ignoring the issue is probably the best route.

Sorry, I don't think my point is too clear. I will try to make it so in the last paragraph.

I think Sneasel should be banned; it's counters are too easily weakened and can be picked off by synergetic teammates ( which usually means Gligar or Meditite ). Steel's nerf, knock off's boost, and being the fastest thing without a scarf while sporting an ok amount of bulk and great attack put it above the rest. While banning it will unleash more monsters, we can see if they will disrupt the game as well and if so, eliminate them, just has always been done.

Also Electrolyte's post is amazing; it should be mandatory to read in this thread. I wish I could put words together as well as he did.

 

[dsr95]

Fine. In order to clear this up. In that team, I got something called Scarf Froakie. It deals with Gligar and Sneasel and basically... everything. Sort of like a Genesect in OU, as it hits hard and there's not much you can do about it.
Next up... Intimidate Scraggy is viable. It's not like you're about to leave your Scraggy to eat a status so the "Shed skin is better" excuse shouldn't be working. You shouldn't just try to set up when they got a status inducer that could threaten you. Next up we got Honedge... which has even taken down Sneasel on the switch in (Opponent expecting Shadow Sneak) by Iron Head, but that was more of a "me predicting the battle" thing.
Shellder can sweep teams including Sneasel just after a Shell Smash which is pretty easy to get. After the boost NO SNEASEL is about to turn the tables around unless you pray a LO Ice Shard crit while I got low-ish health.
Sneasel doesn't always do its job. Being weak to U-turn gives anything with U-turn a chance to wear a scarf and surprise it.
For the person saying that if the opposing team had webs and sneasel as well that's simple. Use Taunt :) I use Taunt inducers almost everywhere because things like Dwebble, Shellder and Surskit, etc get their job done with a sash/sturdy so it's sorta hard to deal with.
I... know it's going to get banned. But it's just sad if it is. I'm done in this post, don't expect another reply here from me. You guys are going to end up banning a shit-load of stuff soon enough anyways.

 

[apt-get]

Fine. In order to clear this up. In that team, I got something called Scarf Froakie. It deals with Gligar and Sneasel and basically... everything. Sort of like a Genesect in OU, as it hits hard and there's not much you can do about it.
Next up... Intimidate Scraggy is viable. It's not like you're about to leave your Scraggy to eat a status so the "Shed skin is better" excuse shouldn't be working. You shouldn't just try to set up when they got a status inducer that could threaten you. Next up we got Honedge... which has even taken down Sneasel on the switch in (Opponent expecting Shadow Sneak) by Iron Head, but that was more of a "me predicting the battle" thing.
Shellder can sweep teams including Sneasel just after a Shell Smash which is pretty easy to get. After the boost NO SNEASEL is about to turn the tables around unless you pray a LO Ice Shard crit while I got low-ish health.
Sneasel doesn't always do its job. Being weak to U-turn gives anything with U-turn a chance to wear a scarf and surprise it.
For the person saying that if the opposing team had webs and sneasel as well that's simple. Use Taunt :) I use Taunt inducers almost everywhere because things like Dwebble, Shellder and Surskit, etc get their job done with a sash/sturdy so it's sorta hard to deal with.
I... know it's going to get banned. But it's just sad if it is. I'm done in this post, don't expect another reply here from me. You guys are going to end up banning a shit-load of stuff soon enough anyways.

all of these things can't switch into sneasel, they're just revenge killers. Sneasel can just switch out, and shellser is KOed by knock off + ice shard.

Your "argument" isn't really one, and your post didn't need the hateful touch at the end.

 

[Lhions]

1) Is Sneasel broken?
Yes, of Course is broken, his speed is just stupid for this tier and he has a nice bulky (if you use eviolite) or a monstrous attack that can destroy everything in this tier. He has only TWO "reliable" checks , shellos and timburr , and even they two are not secure vs him, the first i think that has a little posibility of 2hko and the second cant enter so many times vs sneasel. Sneasel + Gothita to trap they 2 with energy ball and psychic is GG if you predict well.
If we talk about other sets , he can run SD with berry juice to destroy all not named timburr (gothita again)

2) Is Sneasel making Little Cup not fun?
Well this is so subjective , to be honest for me LC with Sneasel is fun because i hate Stall teams, but yes, is boring when you had to take sneasel +anti-sneasel +anti-antiSneasel if you want to have a powerful team, and seeing Sneasel all the time is getting monotonous, and not fun.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
I think not, we are starting a new gen and every tier is unbalanced and centralized....


4) So, ban NOW?
NO. He is broken and he has to be the first banned ,but not now, like Antar says

The problem with banning Sneasel is that it would upset what I think is a truly awesome ecosystem that we've got going. Without Sneasel, Gligar, Missy, Tangela and Yanma roam around much more freely. Basically I think making the decision to ban Sneasel would lead to a chain reaction of bans, which is fine, but then we should acknowledge that "LC Ubers" is a viable and interesting Metagame.

Ban him now is a mistake because we are gonna have so much problems with others ubers, if you decided to ban more pokemons ban Sneasel , if not, we have to wait until the suspects rounds to evite this problem.

 

[Heysup]

Why do people think that Sneasel counters Tangela, Meditite, Gigar, Missy, or Yanma? All of those Pokemon run common moves that OHKO it. So that's another common misconception.......
It should also be noted that Meditite and Tangela actually check Sneasel, though not very reliably.

Also, that slippery slope "we ban Sneasel we ban all gen 5 ubers so we can't ban Sneasel" counter argument doesn't make any sense. First of all, all of those Pokemon would need to be tested in a Sneasel free environment and if they are broken (like they have been the past 2 gens) then sure, they will get banned as well....so what? Having 5-6 Pokemon on a ban list is still pretty small even considering the smaller Pokemon base there is for LC. It's like saying "oh we can't ban Rayquaza/Kyogre because they check <list of Pokemon they check>". Think about that for a second.