Sneasel has been banned

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Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Keep in mind that Knock Off gets a 1.5x boost if its target has an item, which basically means Knock Off will do about the same amount of damage before and after Eviolite removal.
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 16-19 (84.2 - 100%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 9-13 (47.3 - 68.4%)

If Meditite is to be a "counter", how does it switch in and survive to do anything? Ice Punch doesn't even need to be calculated if Knock Off does that much. Also, keep in mind that Ice Shard outspeeds Bullet Punch.


236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Croagunk: 8-9 (34.7 - 39.1%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Croagunk: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Croagunk: 9-13 (39.1 - 56.5%)

If Croagunk is to be a "counter", it will get one switch-in opportunity at most, assuming a Fighting resist like Gligar is brought in so that a possible Drain Punch doesn't recover much health (but honestly then Gligar could trash it since it's weak to both of Gligar's STABs), which any non-idiotic player would consider doing. Also, Croagunk will have to be running Special Attack investment if it is to "counter" Sneasel, since its Fighting-type priority attack is special. This means that it won't have much room for Attack investment if it needs bulk and Special Attack, which in turn means a weaker Drain Punch and less survivability because of it. Also, keep in mind that Ice Shard outspeeds Vacuum Wave.


236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 156 HP / 236+ Def Timburr: 5-8 (19.2 - 30.7%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 156 HP / 236+ Def Timburr: 13-17 (50 - 65.3%)


236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 156 HP / 236+ Def Timburr: 8-9 (30.7 - 34.6%)

If Timburr is to be a "counter", it will be hard pressed to do so even with an Impish nature. With the spread shown here and an Impish nature, Timburr can get two switch-in opportunities at most, assuming there's no hazards, and also assuming the above condition that references a Fighting resist. Also, keep in mind that Ice Shard outspeeds Mach Punch.


236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 228 Def Swirlix: 5-8 (22.7 - 36.3%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 228 Def Swirlix: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 228 Def Swirlix: 8-9 (36.3 - 40.9%)

If Swirlix is to be a "counter", its Berry Juice gets Knocked Off when it comes in, and while this does activate Unburden, Sneasel can just switch out (Calm Minding on the switch is way too big of a risk because if Sneasel stays in and goes for Ice Punch, it's over). If Swirlix has to switch out later, it won't get any more opportunities to switch in without dying to whatever attack it takes when it comes in on Sneasel later, followed by Ice Shard.



What I find hilarious is how well Gligar complements Sneasel by soaking up the physical Fighting-type attacks aimed at it, directly threatening the mons who get Fighting STAB with super effective STAB of its own after switching in against them, and also using Defog so that Sneasel doesn't have to take hazard damage or Sticky Web's Speed drop. It almost requires no thought, and a Fighting-type going for Ice Punch, hoping to hit Gligar on the switch-in, means Game Over if the player outpredicts and doesn't switch Sneasel out, so this almost always presents a super risky situation. This is not fun at all in my humble opinion.
 
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236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 228 Def Swirlix: 5-8 (22.7 - 36.3%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 228 Def Swirlix: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 228 Def Swirlix: 8-9 (36.3 - 40.9%)

If Swirlix is to be a "counter", its Berry Juice gets Knocked Off when it comes in, and while this does activate Unburden, Sneasel can just switch out (Calm Minding on the switch is way too big of a risk because if Sneasel stays in and goes for Ice Punch, it's over). If Swirlix has to switch out later, it won't get any more opportunities to switch in without dying to whatever attack it takes when it comes in on Sneasel later, followed by Ice Shard.
Somethings is get out of my hand. Why Swirlix can just switch out? Why can move only Calm Mind? Don't attack simply with Dazzling Gleam or better use e.g. Flamethrower, since it'is faster than Sneasel and no priority move can kill him?
I don't understand because all example are with Sneasel on batllefield. What are the scenarios when he is switched in? Also you must be very good to predict each opponent switch in, because a wrong predict is fatal for Sneasel.
And what about sunshine with Vulpix's drought?

I would wait more time, without a instant ban.
 

Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Somethings is get out of my hand. Why Swirlix can just switch out? Why can move only Calm Mind? Don't attack simply with Dazzling Gleam or better use e.g. Flamethrower, since it'is faster than Sneasel and no priority move can kill him?
I don't understand because all example are with Sneasel on batllefield. What are the scenarios when he is switched in? Also you must be very good to predict each opponent switch in, because a wrong predict is fatal for Sneasel.
And what about sunshine with Vulpix's drought?

I would wait more time, without a instant ban.
Vulpix is easily 2HKOed by Knock Off.

Scenarios are only shown with Sneasel already in play and with the counters switching in because:

1. Those were the four Pokemon labeled as counters to Sneasel in this thread. Counters are defined as Pokemon that can switch into a given threat under most conditions and be able to deal with said threat reliably and throughout a match.

2. Sneasel's offensive power is what's being measured here and is what makes it broken, not its ability to take hits.

3. Sneasel is an offensive mon, not a defensive one. Nobody uses Sneasel for defensive purposes and due to its high Speed and access to Ice Shard to outspeed other priority, you'll be lucky to even hit it.

4. Sneasel should not be expected to switch into any attack, since the object for any competent player is to let Sneasel threaten the opposing team as much as possible, particularly because it has no recovery and Life Orb recoil eats at its health as it dishes out attacks.

Of course Swirlix can threaten Sneasel after losing its item and gaining doubled Speed, but Sneasel can switch out to say, Eviolite Skrelp, which takes both of the moves you listed (Dazzling Gleam and Flamethrower) very well due to type resists, and then Swirlix is either killed by Sludge Bomb the following turn or forced out, making Unburden not work for the rest of the match. Following this, Swirlix will be unable to switch into Sneasel again for the remainder of the battle because it cannot take a hit upon coming back in and then be able to survive the second one as Sneasel outspeeds and finishes it off.
 
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Somethings is get out of my hand. Why Swirlix can just switch out? Why can move only Calm Mind? Don't attack simply with Dazzling Gleam or better use e.g. Flamethrower, since it'is faster than Sneasel and no priority move can kill him?
I don't understand because all example are with Sneasel on batllefield. What are the scenarios when he is switched in? Also you must be very good to predict each opponent switch in, because a wrong predict is fatal for Sneasel.
And what about sunshine with Vulpix's drought?

I would wait more time, without a instant ban.
because if sneasel switches out, you will be at double speed, but with no other boosts, which means you can maybe hopefully take out one poke, but most likely not
 
Excuse me, where I said that Swirlix is a counter? I have not seen it.

Vulpix is 2KO, okay: But Drought is important and focal. I thought this was clear. That's interesting is some Pokemon like Tangela and Sewaddle with Chlorophyll (and Sewaddle has Stycky Web). I think that's a condition where Sneasel is not broken, at all.

3. Sneasel is an offensive mon, not a defensive one. Nobody uses Sneasel for defensive purposes and due to its high Speed and access to Ice Shard to outspeed other priority, you'll be lucky to even hit it.
Of course. But its switch-in are quite problematic. Willy-nilly we have to consider how is important his defensive poverty. What I'm trying to say is there are several way to compete with it; and he has many checkers (with good using percentage) which could be fatal when his speed is slow down. And Sneasel
depends on his speed really quite a lot. I think it's a limit to consider him broken.

The original meaning was unban almost everything to can tell about: "Let's see, what's up?" I wouldn't a chain reaction, with one ban after the others. And so, the same BW LC metagame. The same which many players find so annoying and boring (I do not).
 

chimp

Go Bananas
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Oh, Sneasel.

Sneasel reminds me of Murkrow of Gen V. There weren't many counters because of the possibilities of Murkrow running either Heat Wave or HP Grass.

I do think there are enough checks to keep Sneasel in, well, check. Namely, Timburr, Larvesta, Croagunk, Makuhita and most other fighting or fire types. These pokemon are also very useful in their own right when not checking sneasel, and aren't forced to run any special sets to do so. Unlike Murkrow, Sneasel doesn't have much to get past his checks.
Additionally, Sneasel is vulnerable to most priority, like Timburr's Mach Punch and Meditite's Bullet Punch. I don't believe Sneasel's Ice Shard will be enough to scare them away.

So, I do not think Sneasel is broken.
 

prem

failed abortion
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Oh, Sneasel.

Sneasel reminds me of Murkrow of Gen V. There weren't many counters because of the possibilities of Murkrow running either Heat Wave or HP Grass.

I do think there are enough checks to keep Sneasel in, well, check. Namely, Timburr, Larvesta, Croagunk, Makuhita and most other fighting or fire types. These pokemon are also very useful in their own right when not checking sneasel, and aren't forced to run any special sets to do so. Unlike Murkrow, Sneasel doesn't have much to get past his checks.
Additionally, Sneasel is vulnerable to most priority, like Timburr's Mach Punch and Meditite's Bullet Punch. I don't believe Sneasel's Ice Shard will be enough to scare them away.

So, I do not think Sneasel is broken.
well first of all i think murkrow was broken last gen because honestly there werent enough of anything to take 2 lo brave birds and survive. BUT thats a different conversation all together.

Sneasel however is nothing like murkrow was. there was basically a hard counter to murkrow in bulky chinchou because hp grass only did 40% brave bird only did 32% and sucker punch did not kill it after a brave bird so it was free to scald at will. Sneasel on the other hand can get around EVERY single one of its counters. just by spamming knock off you neutrer all your counters. then you can switch out and use either a teammate to beat it or just wait until next time sneasel came in because now the check is weakened to the point where sneasel can beat it easily. literally the only way to bring one of the checks in against sneasel and expect it to do something is to sack something and then bring your check. but at that point you are already -1 on your opponent and they are free to switch to one of the MANY counters to timburr, larvesta, and coagunk.


Excuse me, where I said that Swirlix is a counter? I have not seen it.

Vulpix is 2KO, okay: But Drought is important and focal. I thought this was clear. That's interesting is some Pokemon like Tangela and Sewaddle with Chlorophyll (and Sewaddle has Stycky Web). I think that's a condition where Sneasel is not broken, at all.


The original meaning was unban almost everything to can tell about: "Let's see, what's up?" I wouldn't a chain reaction, with one ban after the others. And so, the same BW LC metagame. The same which many players find so annoying and boring (I do not).
for the drought comment yes sneasel will lose to chloro tang. but you have to let vulpix or something to die for sneasel to get in. and then you can just switch to your tangela counter or just even stall until sun is gone and then the sun goes away. also not all teams can actually use sticky web due to typing and synergy and what not, so saying sun+sticky web beats sneasel is way too specific; yes people should make their team around beating the metagame, but if sneasel is limiting teambuilding to the point where you basically decided 3 of your team members (vulpix, tang, seawaddle) where all three can beat sneasel in specific situations, i think thats a problem

Also what happens to the metagame after Sneasel is banned should have no effect on how broken Sneasel is. we aren't going to think "wow sneasel checks the otherwise uncheckable yanma. we have to keep it in the metagame otherwise we would have to ban yanma!" because thats just leaving 2 potentially broken things in the metagame instead of dealing with it. It might cause a chain reaction it might not, but the fact is we should only focus on if sneasel is broken in the metagame right now.
 
Just saying, keeping Sneasel around because of the rock-paper-scissors aspect of the freed pokemon is just silly.

1. Sneasel counters Gilgar!
2. Gilgar counters Meditie!
3. Meditite counters Sneasel!

Therefore Sneasel should stick around because it throws this all out and unbalances it if it leaves. The problem I have with this is:

1. Meditite countering Sneasel is just plain wrong / not happening.

2. People act like Sneasel is the only pokemon that can check Tanglea, Gilgar, Yamna, etc. In fact, off the top of my head, Koffing could probably check all three of those. Archen handles both Yamna and Gilgar, even most Vulpix, etc. Besides, if you were relying on just Ice Shard for all these threats you probably spread Sneasel too thin to begin with. It is the fact that Sneasel can revenge these three or just utterly destroy whatever switches in is what makes it so good.

EDIT: Yes, let me use stick web; an entry hazard exclusive to a whopping 3 pokemon in LC - all three of which are weak to stealth rock and flying. I want to use a 310 BST (Worse than Woobat) Sewaddle,which gets no physical move more powerful than 60 BP or a 269 BST ( 30 points lower than beldum) Surkist or a 250 BST ( on par with Zubat ) Spinark.

And if they have a Spinner or Defogger? Oh well...
 
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prem

failed abortion
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EDIT: Yes, let me use an entry hazard exclusive to 3 pokemon in LC - all three of which are weak to stealth rock and flying. I want to use a 310 BST (Worse than Woobat) Sewaddle,which gets no physical move more powerful than 60 BP or a 269 BST ( 30 points lower than beldum) Surkist or a 250 BST ( on par with Zubat ) Spinark.

And if they have a Spinner or Defogger? Oh well...
just saying sticky web is actually totally worth it most of the time in such an offensive metagame. I understand their base stats are bad but they all can at least do SOMETHING; infact i think sewaddle is the worst one. i mean if they have a spinner / defogger just gotta learn to save your web or hope you win anyway lol

Sticky web is a legitmate counter to sneasel provided you can keep it there but its become much easier to remove hazards. also with sneasel around spinblocking became a lot more difficult (when was the last time someone saw a missy?) for the few people who do use rapid spin over defog. Just saying dont bash on the idea because it is effective just diffficult to use
 
They all lose to taunt though. The most common taunters, Mukrow, Missy, even Vullaby can all prevent them from setting it up and either OHKO them in the case of Murkrow and Vullaby, or literally sit there and do nothing against Missy.

I mean yes if you can get it up ( and keep it up) then all power to you, but if I need to use one of 3 pokemon that do not break the BST of Woobat to have a chance of beating Sneasel because they could always pack Rapid Spin or Defog, then that is certainty a problem. I mean it's not like they have great survivability or anything. Sweaddle might get synthesis but it has 2 x4 weaknesses and weak to stealth rock...
 

chimp

Go Bananas
is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
well first of all i think murkrow was broken last gen because honestly there werent enough of anything to take 2 lo brave birds and survive. BUT thats a different conversation all together.

Sneasel however is nothing like murkrow was. there was basically a hard counter to murkrow in bulky chinchou because hp grass only did 40% brave bird only did 32% and sucker punch did not kill it after a brave bird so it was free to scald at will. Sneasel on the other hand can get around EVERY single one of its counters. just by spamming knock off you neutrer all your counters. then you can switch out and use either a teammate to beat it or just wait until next time sneasel came in because now the check is weakened to the point where sneasel can beat it easily. literally the only way to bring one of the checks in against sneasel and expect it to do something is to sack something and then bring your check. but at that point you are already -1 on your opponent and they are free to switch to one of the MANY counters to timburr, larvesta, and coagunk.


True, but there are a few pokes who can stand up to Sneasel, even after they have lost their eviolite. Its likely that sneasel will switch out when his checks come in, so that may give them a chance to heal (in the case of Larvesta/Ponyta)or get momentum with a switch themselves, also giving you a chance to take out the Sneasel's counter's counter. Though, I will agree, Sneasel is very difficult to switch in to, which may qualify it for "broken" status.

For curiosity's sake,

252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 76 HP / 152 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 9-13 (39.1 - 56.5%)
Thats not bad, considering the chance to burn as well. Its not all too likely that Sneasel will stay in against Larvesta, so it can heal up on the switch.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Skrelp: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 116 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Grimer: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%)

Its pretty much Knock Off the makes Sneasel so destructive

EDIT: fucked up the quotes lol
 

Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Excuse me, where I said that Swirlix is a counter? I have not seen it.
I only said that these four were the labeled counters to Sneasel in this thread, not that you were the one who listed them. ♥

And if it's counters you want, here's what I've got for you:

Code:
+----------------------------------------+
| Checks and Counters                    |
| Timburr 73.088 (87.21±3.53)            |
| (26.5% KOed / 60.7% switched out)|
| Croagunk 58.059 (75.32±4.32)           |
| (21.3% KOed / 54.0% switched out)|
| Swirlix 54.243 (67.17±3.23)            |
| (42.7% KOed / 24.5% switched out)|
| Meditite 51.494 (63.98±3.12)           |
| (25.8% KOed / 38.2% switched out)|
+----------------------------------------+
236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 16-19 (84.2 - 100%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meditite: 9-13 (47.3 - 68.4%)

If Meditite is to be a "counter", how does it switch in and survive to do anything? Ice Punch doesn't even need to be calculated if Knock Off does that much. Also, keep in mind that Ice Shard outspeeds Bullet Punch.


236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Croagunk: 8-9 (34.7 - 39.1%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Croagunk: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Croagunk: 9-13 (39.1 - 56.5%)

If Croagunk is to be a "counter", it will get one switch-in opportunity at most, assuming a Fighting resist like Gligar is brought in so that a possible Drain Punch doesn't recover much health (but honestly then Gligar could trash it since it's weak to both of Gligar's STABs), which any non-idiotic player would consider doing. Also, Croagunk will have to be running Special Attack investment if it is to "counter" Sneasel, since its Fighting-type priority attack is special. This means that it won't have much room for Attack investment if it needs bulk and Special Attack, which in turn means a weaker Drain Punch and less survivability because of it. Also, keep in mind that Ice Shard outspeeds Vacuum Wave.


236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 156 HP / 236+ Def Timburr: 5-8 (19.2 - 30.7%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 156 HP / 236+ Def Timburr: 13-17 (50 - 65.3%)


236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 156 HP / 236+ Def Timburr: 8-9 (30.7 - 34.6%)

If Timburr is to be a "counter", it will be hard pressed to do so even with an Impish nature. With the spread shown here and an Impish nature, Timburr can get two switch-in opportunities at most, assuming there's no hazards, and also assuming the above condition that references a Fighting resist. Also, keep in mind that Ice Shard outspeeds Mach Punch.


236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 228 Def Swirlix: 5-8 (22.7 - 36.3%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 228 Def Swirlix: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%)

236 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 228 Def Swirlix: 8-9 (36.3 - 40.9%)

If Swirlix is to be a "counter", its Berry Juice gets Knocked Off when it comes in, and while this does activate Unburden, Sneasel can just switch out (Calm Minding on the switch is way too big of a risk because if Sneasel stays in and goes for Ice Punch, it's over). If Swirlix has to switch out later, it won't get any more opportunities to switch in without dying to whatever attack it takes when it comes in on Sneasel later, followed by Ice Shard.



What I find hilarious is how well Gligar complements Sneasel by soaking up the physical Fighting-type attacks aimed at it, directly threatening the mons who get Fighting STAB with super effective STAB of its own after switching in against them, and also using Defog so that Sneasel doesn't have to take hazard damage or Sticky Web's Speed drop. It almost requires no thought, and a Fighting-type going for Ice Punch, hoping to hit Gligar on the switch-in, means Game Over if the player outpredicts and doesn't switch Sneasel out, so this almost always presents a super risky situation. This is not fun at all in my humble opinion.
 
True, but there are a few pokes who can stand up to Sneasel, even after they have lost their eviolite. Its likely that sneasel will switch out when his checks come in, so that may give them a chance to heal (in the case of Larvesta/Ponyta)or get momentum with a switch themselves, also giving you a chance to take out the Sneasel's counter's counter. Though, I will agree, Sneasel is very difficult to switch in to, which may qualify it for "broken" status.

For curiosity's sake,

252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 76 HP / 152 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 9-13 (39.1 - 56.5%)
Thats not bad, considering the chance to burn as well. Its not all too likely that Sneasel will stay in against Larvesta, so it can heal up on the switch.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Skrelp: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 116 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Grimer: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%)

Its pretty much Knock Off the makes Sneasel so destructive

EDIT: fucked up the quotes lol
The thing is, Grimer and others can only switch in on Sneasel once or twice a match. And the Sneasel is likely to switch out after that. Meaning you have to deal with it later. Flame Body is nice but shouldnt be relied on, and switching in means you are most likely losing your Eviolite (with the exception of grimer)


They all lose to taunt though. The most common taunters, Mukrow, Missy, even Vullaby can all prevent them from setting it up and either OHKO them in the case of Murkrow and Vullaby, or literally sit there and do nothing against Missy.

I mean yes if you can get it up ( and keep it up) then all power to you, but if I need to use one of 3 pokemon that do not break the BST of Woobat to have a chance of beating Sneasel because they could always pack Rapid Spin or Defog, then that is certainty a problem. I mean it's not like they have great survivability or anything. Sweaddle might get synthesis but it has 2 x4 weaknesses and weak to stealth rock...
I think you are underestimating Sewaddle as a whole. I don't wanna go too off topic too much but 45/70/60 is pretty decent bulk and enough to take multiple attacks with eviolite. It's also not complete set up bait between Energy Ball, Bug Buzz and Air Slash.

I thought you would know that a low BST does not immediatly mean that a pokemon is bad. The Sticky Web users all have traits besides Sticky Web to warrant use. Sewaddle is pretty bulky and with a Fighting resist and can hit back with Air Slash. Spinarak has Toxic Spikes, a high BP megahorn and agility baton pass i guess. Surskit has decent speed, power and coverage. I agree with that they all lose to Taunt though, but it's only decently common on missy and i havent seen a Taunt Murkrow in ages. Vullaby is cool though.
 
Sewaddle is too slow to make use of it's fighting resist. It's also weak to Stone Edge, Ice Punch, U-turn, AND Poison Jab, so in reality, which fighting type do you plan on coming in on? Air Slash doesn't hit hard enough off of 10 sp. attk

It loses to scraggy, mienfoo carrying posion jab or stone edge ( even U-turn does a lot), meditite, Croagunk with Sludge Wave... Even defensive Timburr can 2HKO it, while Swaddle can struggle to 3HKO any of them.

Let me ask you this: Did you use Sweaddle at all during gen 5 when it did not have sticky web access? I didn't because there was almost no reason to use it when it's physical move pool is terrible, it's special attack is low, and it has a terrible defensive (and offensive) typing. I would not use it in Sun, where is was outclassed by bellsprout or even Oddish. I would not use Surkist as a swift swimmer when there was horsea and Mantyke available, and I defintely wouldn't use Spinark to pass agility or for toxic spikes (completely outclassed by Venonat, and that is really saying something)

Spinark is walled by pretty much any poison, fighting, steel, or flying type, and it really can't check anything, so it is basically a suicide lead and extremely predictable. Surkist is the same, maybe it can Rain Dance, but honestly Surkist will rarely survive for the time it takes to launch the Hydro Pump.

But this really isn't about Sticky Web, it's about Sneasel. The fact that we are discussing using these pokemon (which no one in their right mind would use in gen 5 LC i.e only used for one move) to solely "check" Sneasel is saying something
 
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Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Sewaddle is not very viable outside of Sticky Web, and it was not a popular choice last generation, as Shouting said. Its poor Speed and common weaknesses really hurt it. I'm 100% sure that every Sticky Web user in Little Cup would be forgotten in favor of other mons if Sticky Web did not exist, but I don't mean to get off topic.

It's probably also worth noting that Sneasel, even after Sticky Web's Speed drop is applied, outspeeds Sewaddle and beats it very easily, making Sewaddle's offensive advantage against Sneasel (super effective Bug STAB) mean little to nothing. It's not like Sneasel will be switching in on Sewaddle.
 
Ok so we've been talking about sticky web for like an entire page and it's getting a bit ridiculous. In regards to Sneasel, Sticky Web is an entry hazard that can be used with it or against it. It's not more vulnerable to Sticky Web because it's fast, it's just unnecessary to use because of the ease in which it's removed/stopped being set up (and not to mention it's powerful priority). With those two points in mind, it is not a reasonable thing to bring up or use as a straw to grasp in any argument regarding Sneasel's effectiveness. Sticky Web is by no means a "bad" strategy and that is not what people should be debating here because that belongs in another thread. Let's keep this about Sneasel.
 
First a general point about bans (keep in mind that I'm not talking about Sneasel specifically here, so ignore this part if you only care about what I think of Sneasel):
I agree with a lot of what Antar has said, especially this:
My point: the discussion of whether Sneasel is broken is fundamentally a discussion of what we want the Gen VI LC metagame to look like. If we want LC Stall to be a thing, then fine, yes, it's broken. But if we want Gen VI LC to be more like Gen IV LC, which I personally believe was loads more fun, then it doesn't need banning.
I think, given the way last gen turned out, we need to be very aware of this when considering bans this gen. I think most suspect discussions in the past have been a bit biased against offensive pokemon. To illustrated this, compare Sneasel and Mienfoo. A lot of the complaints about Sneasel in this thread also held for Mienfoo last gen.
[Sneasel's counters] can never actually prevent Sneasel from doing its job
Sneasel is on almost every team
There is honestly little reason NOT to put Sneasel in a team
These are all quotes from this thread that were true about Mienfoo last generation, probably to an even greater extent. Briyella pointed out the obvious difference: Mienfoo isn't nearly as threatening (i.e. it isn't as offensively potent), which is why it was never banned. When people talk about "brokenness" there's always a focus on a pokemon's offensive abilities and how hard it is to counter that pokemon. I think what we need to keep in mind is that hard countering is not the only way to handle offensive threats. Against some pokes, relying on checks instead of counters might be the best strategy, and that shouldn't necessarily be frowned upon. You can also help yourself by using indirect means: SR, spikes, sticky web, trick room, paralysis, burn, tailwind, weather, and dual screens all help (they aren't solutions by themselves, but they help) against pokes like Sneasel and should be taken into account. (Some of these might seem gimmicky, but we shouldn't assume that is still the case, especially this early in the metagame's life). In sum, we should be cognizant of potential bias against an offensive playstyle, which might mean thinking a bit outside the box when it comes to dealing with offensive threats will be necessary.

Now about Sneasel specifically (I'll try to be a bit more brief here):
1) Do I think it's broken? Probably. As I think we've learned at this point, there are not only very few counters to Sneasel, there are NO counters to Sneasel (it's unfortunate because without Knock Off I think it would be okay). Most of the indirect means I mentioned above don't work against Sneasel either because of Ice Shard. It hits Chlorophyll and Sand Rush users super effectively, along with Murkrow and Fletchling, who could otherwise use priority Thunder Wave and Tailwind, respectively. It even has Brick Break for screens. Hazards would theoretically slow it down a bit, but with Gligar around, it's pretty hard to ensure that your hazards are going to stay up. Even most pokes with ways to boost their speed have problems. Scarf users have difficulty outspeeding, Tirtouga needs 2 Shell Smashes to outspeed, and Yanma is weak to Ice Shard. The list of pokes that don't have much trouble with Sneasel even once set up is very small (only Swirlix, Ponyta, Dwebble, and Honedge). So the answer is probably yes, although I think people undersell Timburr, Growlithe, and Snubbull a bit.
2) Does Sneasel make the metagame less fun? Not in my opinion. I like to try out a bunch of pokes and I have found that way easier in the current metagame than I did when Mienfoo was everywhere. I don't know exactly why that is, but it's been true so far.
3) Does it chase players away? I would expect so. Sneasel is a pretty brutal poke for new players to face. If you're not prepared for it, facing it would just not be fun.

I'm still pretty on the fence about this. I think I would personally prefer to hold off on the banning for now, because I think there's still a small possibility that people could adjust their playstyles to deal with Sneasel more easily (and if it goes away it sure as hell isn't coming back). But at the same time, I recognize that it will probably be banned eventually, so I wouldn't be upset if it was.
 
What more can I even say at this point. I believe sneasel is broke. I actually think it might have been pretty managable this gen if it wasn't for knock off's massive buff. Looking past the absurd speed stat, the great attack stat, and the near perfect coverage of its moves (as well as access to stuff like swords dance), knock off is such a massive kick in the groin now. Things that could have otherwise switched in add infinitum (growlithe for example) now fear losing their precious eviolite. The extra stab damage lets it destroy things like slowpoke and frilish (which weren't great against it before, but were at least capable of threatening it). From personal experience, switching into an sneasel is a waking nightmare, and I find myself usually letting the damn thing pick off my guy before attempting to revenge it. Its such a powerhouse, and so omnipresent I can't help but want it banned.

As for fun... well Goddess Briyella gave a very good argument about that some ways back up the list, and I pretty much agree with that. Its not very fun to always have to pack some threats to deal with it. Playing against the same stuff again and again gets boring quickly. But you know, again subjective, and I don't really think it should apply much as to whether sneasel should be banned or not.
 

dcae

plaza athénée
is a defending SCL Championis a Past SCL Champion
Or let's just accept the fact that Sneasel is unfortunately broken, and as much as I love the Pokemon, it does not deserve to remain in LC. Arguing it checks other (maybe) broken things is not an argument. Hazards cannot justify it either, since SR is terrible for Sneasel to face as well. We have to look at the fact that Sneasel has a massive attack stat coupled with the fastest speed in LC, outspeeding even the old standard for Scarfers. Knock Off pushes it over the edge by crippling any "counters." Yes, smart playing beats Sneasel, but many people also misuse the jewel that is Sneasel by keeping it in or comitting risky plays. Thus, "smart playing" is not a proper argument either.

Sneasel is a disease plaguing this metagame and should be removed ASAP.
 
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Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
I'm still pretty on the fence about this. I think I would personally prefer to hold off on the banning for now, because I think there's still a small possibility that people could adjust their playstyles to deal with Sneasel more easily (and if it goes away it sure as hell isn't coming back). But at the same time, I recognize that it will probably be banned eventually, so I wouldn't be upset if it was.
Players have begun to create teams and sets that can handle the threat of Sneasel, but this does not justify its brokenness. As I stated previously, carrying very specific things on a team to be able to have any chance of winning at all means that only about 12 or 13 Pokemon will ever see usage in such a metagame, because everything else will be considered non-important, which is kind of ridiculous and quite a waste if there are hundreds of Pokemon available in the tier and only a very restricted few pre-determined ones can make the cut for a successful team. This harshly limits the variety of Little Cup and is very unhealthy for the metagame, regardless of whether or not Sneasel can be dealt with by using very specific means, as well as half your team being able to check it. A well played Sneasel is a problem that demands multiple answers, and how many safety nets does it take to feel comfortable enough to play in a tier where it exists?

It can be played with, and it's not immortal, but it's screwing the tier up.
 
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My basic idea that's Snaesel's power force is the combination priority move/high speed. Only this is objectively for metagame. But sometimes I have forced to switch out Sneasel, so it's not so easy switch in him. I think it means that it's not so broken.
Like so he is objectively strong, there are more than one right way to make his weaknesses uncoverede. Because without his speed (Sun/Chlorophyll or Sticky Web, but why not even a trick room, i have just try it) is very easily defeated. You must not underrate him, but you can find more than one solution.

Finally my vote is three NO for questions.
I think the problem about Sneasel's things in that case (like how it is checked by TR/Sticky Web/Sun) is that the main way to reliably deal with a threat like that. These are Whole Strategies. With the exception of Stealth Rock, and the hellhole called Scald Burn, most of these things tend to require a team around it. Sneasel pretty much forces you to run something like that if you want to reliably beat it.

Let's compare this to a BANNED Pokemon in OU; Tornadus-T. Tornadus-T had Regenerator, and posed arguably as much of an offensive threat that Sneasel does, it 2HKOed most Pokemon with Hurricane in rain, it was pretty reliable because Rain is a pretty easy weather to setup in OU, and pretty much wrecked house with the coverage of Flying/Fighting. Of course it had switchins, like Jirachi, Thundurus-T, Rotom-W, and Zapdos. But with the exception of Zapdos, those checks generally had a pretty weak chance of actually winning over Tornadus-T, because Torn-T could constantly pressure them and cripple its checks to come out with a victory. Of course, Sneasel here doesn't have regenerator. However, like Torn-T it can get rid of any traditional checks. The main way of dealing with Tornadus-Therian is to just use a Whole Strategy to deal with it, such as Sun teams. Sneasel is in the same boat, where it might have maximum of 2 reliable checks, but the only real way to reliably beat it is by switching your whole strategy up. Sneasel's crazy game impact then changes some team matchup things going on, effectively lessening how competitive a meta is

EDIT: While typing, so many posts....
 
@Briyella:
The argument you're making now is why looking at usage stats can be useful, despite what you said before. Is Sneasel really restricting the number of viable pokemon any more than the three M's did last gen? We don't necessarily know until we've seen the stats. Based on what we've seen in the past, LC will always have a few elite pokemon that will get a lot of usage. It's not yet clear to me that Sneasel is causing any more centralization than another top pokemon would.

Also LC has hundreds of pokemon, but most of them will never be really competitively viable, regardless of Sneasel's presence.

I was also referring not to coming up with specific sets or pokes that counter Sneasel, but rather suggesting that we might see a shift towards a more offensive metagame in which Sneasel might not have quite such an easy time. I don't personally expect this to happen, but I think it's still early enough that people are still figuring things out, so it might be worth waiting.
 
Considering that Knock Off is what really pushes Sneasel over the top, I wouldn't say it's a stretch to have the idea of only banning Knock Off + Sneasel. We can't ban the move Knock Off, because it's only really broken on Sneasel.

And if i recall correctly, the ban of Hail had options when it came up in RU last generation. The options were: Ban Snow Warning, Ban Snover, Ban Ice Body + Snow Warning, and Do not ban. While this is a move and not an ability, the sheer brokenness of it on Sneasel means it wouldn't be a stretch to consider possibly banning just Knock Off + Sneasel.

I think it's pretty agreed upon that Knock Off is what breaks Sneasel and pushes it over the top. Again, I am not advocating this proposal at this time, but I don't think the possibility of having this as a solution should be thrown out the window so thoughtlessly.
Well that was because hail had incredible support that effected the whole tier and gave many mons that normally wouldn't be used without hail uses. banning a move is completely different from banning a ability, as banning the move for one mon just gives confusion that could just be addressed by banning the mon because its stats and movepool make it OP.
 

Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
@Briyella:
The argument you're making now is why looking at usage stats can be useful, despite what you said before. Is Sneasel really restricting the number of viable pokemon any more than the three M's did last gen? We don't necessarily know until we've seen the stats. Based on what we've seen in the past, LC will always have a few elite pokemon that will get a lot of usage. It's not yet clear to me that Sneasel is causing any more centralization than another top pokemon would.

Also LC has hundreds of pokemon, but most of them will never be really competitively viable, regardless of Sneasel's presence.

I was also referring not to coming up with specific sets or pokes that counter Sneasel, but rather suggesting that we might see a shift towards a more offensive metagame in which Sneasel might not have quite such an easy time. I don't personally expect this to happen, but I think it's still early enough that people are still figuring things out, so it might be worth waiting.
You don't have to look at usage stats to know that Sneasel inherently makes a ton of things unviable to use all on its own, by severely limiting what all can be put on a team in order for it to be successful in a metagame where Sneasel exists.

Try making a team without Meditite, Croagunk, Swirlix, Snubbull, Murkrow, Growlithe, Larvesta, Timburr, Yanma, Dwebble, Tirtouga, and Sneasel, and see how far you get in XY Little Cup.
 
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