Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Fly Me to the Moon [ Council announcement Post #2 ]

[Ibaragi]

^Add Tera Skeledirge (accounting defensive Tera to counter a sweeper that almost always wants to Tera is not opportunity cost, it's a fair trade) and Garganacl unless its running EQ (note that you don't need to Tera Garg against Tera-Flying Roaring Moon, since resisting Acrobatics is the top priority).

Thing is, ID or Curse Corv and Garg, Tera Skeledirge and Dondozo are all great answers to the myriad of physical sweepers that appeared as "potentially problematic" in the survey... but no one runs them. Why? Because the meta doesn't let you defensively check ANYTHING under the Hazard rule: you either go full stall with HDB (which is still unpopular, but Gliscor alone has turned it into a viable strategy and I've faced more stall in the last week than in all the months of pre-DLC Gen 9 OU) and fear Knock Off and Psyshock Gholdengo or go ham with your own offense.
The problem with Roaring Moon is that he'll "probably be fine" in a healthy meta, and banning him will not solve the problem at hand. Is he really all that worse than Ogerpon, Kingambit or Sneasler? Mons that essentially do the same and are checked by virtually the same mons? Bonus points to Sneasler not being considered such a great problem for the same reason why Corv is seen as non-viable: Gholdengo existing (+Gliscor for Sneasler).

Will banning Roaring Moon solve anything? No, it'll just change who is the premier sweeper, and cause the same problems. Would Roaring Moon still be a problem in a meta where these secondary problems are treated? Probably not; would still be a great DD sweeper, but would crash into the commonly-run OU staple walls that everyone used to run a few months ago and that now, even though they still fulfill an important role in the meta, feel like they're just a slow way to lose.
Can we say that Roaring Moon is the problem and inherently broken, when we wouldn't be having this conversation in a healthier meta AND we'll have to address said meta either way? Aren't we just blaming the mon for an inherent imbalance in the game as it is today?
We do have defensive answers to Roaring Moon, but the game isn't letting us use them.

I don't think we can reach a conclusive resolution to these questions in the current meta, and its state is so toxic that "being broken in the current meta" is not even an argument, just a description of the entire tier as it is. My point being, if I were to agree that Roaring Moon is broken and should be banned today, I'd have to say the same for virtually all mons in OU right now, which forces me to reconsider my definition of "broken" (and is kind of one of the reasons why I'm mostly down at UU right now I even peaked! I'm within the top 300! I can see my name from the Ladder Menu!!)

I won't be even trying to get reqs for this suspect, but the only factor that makes me doubt are sets with Taunt having the potential to break past some of the above defensive sets if unexpected, but RM greatly suffers from giving up coverage, and would still make me very slightly lean towards No Ban.
And with that said, I'd like to reiterate my own message from the Metagame Thread: we should ask in the next survey not about single mons, but whether or not people "want tiering action on Hazards", and THEN ask "which mon you think is the bigger problem here". If we're going to keep prioritizing survey results to decide our next move (which I'm not against at all, mind), we'll need to learn that not all questions and ways to ask are the same, and I honestly believe this will allow us to move against the real threat and problem of the meta today.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

^Add Tera Skeledirge (accounting defensive Tera to counter a sweeper that almost always wants to Tera is not opportunity cost, it's a fair trade) and Garganacl unless its running EQ (note that you don't need to Tera Garg against Tera-Flying Roaring Moon, since resisting Acrobatics is the top priority).

Thing is, ID or Curse Corv and Garg, Tera Skeledirge and Dondozo are all great answers to the myriad of physical sweepers that appeared as "potentially problematic" in the survey... but no one runs them. Why? Because the meta doesn't let you defensively check ANYTHING under the Hazard rule: you either go full stall with HDB (which is still unpopular, but Gliscor alone has turned it into a viable strategy and I've faced more stall in the last week than in all the months of pre-DLC Gen 9 OU) and fear Knock Off and Psyshock Gholdengo or go ham with your own offense.
The problem with Roaring Moon is that he'll "probably be fine" in a healthy meta, and banning him will not solve the problem at hand. Is he really all that worse than Ogerpon, Kingambit or Sneasler? Mons that essentially do the same and are checked by virtually the same mons? Bonus points to Sneasler not being considered such a great problem for the same reason why Corv is seen as non-viable: Gholdengo existing (+Gliscor for Sneasler).

Will banning Roaring Moon solve anything? No, it'll just change who is the premier sweeper, and cause the same problems. Would Roaring Moon still be a problem in a meta where these secondary problems are treated? Probably not; would still be a great DD sweeper, but would crash into the commonly-run OU staple walls that everyone used to run a few months ago and that now, even though they still fulfill an important role in the meta, feel like they're just a slow way to lose.
Can we say that Roaring Moon is the problem and inherently broken, when we wouldn't be having this conversation in a healthier meta AND we'll have to address said meta either way? Aren't we just blaming the mon for an inherent imbalance in the game as it is today?
We do have defensive answers to Roaring Moon, but the game isn't letting us use them.

I don't think we can reach a conclusive resolution to these questions in the current meta, and its state is so toxic that "being broken in the current meta" is not even an argument, just a description of the entire tier as it is. My point being, if I were to agree that Roaring Moon is broken and should be banned today, I'd have to say the same for virtually all mons in OU right now, which forces me to reconsider my definition of "broken" (and is kind of one of the reasons why I'm mostly down at UU right now I even peaked! I'm within the top 300! I can see my name from the Ladder Menu!!)

I won't be even trying to get reqs for this suspect, but the only factor that makes me doubt are sets with Taunt having the potential to break past some of the above defensive sets if unexpected, but RM greatly suffers from giving up coverage, and would still make me very slightly lean towards No Ban.
And with that said, I'd like to reiterate my own message from the Metagame Thread: we should ask in the next survey not about single mons, but whether or not people "want tiering action on Hazards", and THEN ask "which mon you think is the bigger problem here". If we're going to keep prioritizing survey results to decide our next move (which I'm not against at all, mind), we'll need to learn that not all questions and ways to ask are the same, and I honestly believe this will allow us to move against the real threat and problem of the meta today.

ok, but even if you think ghold is the problem, think about it this way: if roaring moon gets banned, gholdengo loses a counter, which makes it more likely to get banned. if it happens quickly enough, we might even be able to drop roaring moon back down for dlc2. play the long game here—remove all of ghold's best answers and watch the case against it get stronger and stronger

 

[RS25802580]

ok, but even if you think ghold is the problem, think about it this way: if roaring moon gets banned, gholdengo loses a counter, which makes it more likely to get banned. if it happens quickly enough, we might even be able to drop roaring moon back down for dlc2. play the long game here—remove all of ghold's best answers and watch the case against it get stronger and stronger

Completely agree with this. In the long game, once Moon and Gambit are banned, Ghold will be a pretty clear suspect candidate. Then when Ghold is banned the hazards game will get better.

 

[guardian of sand]

This is a mon I'm pretty on the fence with. On one hand, this thing has the potential to nuke most HO/BO teams with pretty little set up. On the other hand, losing a dark type makes ghold stronger. I'm going to say ban because I don't think RM is healthy in the current meta and I don't think it'll be healthy in future metas (especially if hazards are fixed in OU because they're simply busted right now).

Here's a set I've been using Lando-T which counters RM decently, up until it goes tera flying:

Landorus-Therian @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 36 Atk / 228 Def
Lax Nature

• Grass Knot
• Earthquake
• U-turn
• Stone Edge

Intimidate works well enough and U-Turn can really put in work if RM is not using tera. Stone edge is there as a last ditch option to try and get the KO after tera.

Here are some calcs on how RM can still absolutely ruin Lando-T without DD setup:

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 244 HP / 228+ Def Landorus-Therian: 193-228 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
36 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 272-320 (77.4 - 91.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO AFTER ROCKY HELMET

Is this set perfect? Not at all, but it is helpful at applying pressure with intimidate and rocky helmet to make the ranges for sucker punch more favorable.

My biggest issue with RM is as soon as it hits the field, it feels like I have to stop everything I'm doing and immediately try to get the KO and lose mons, or force it out, which most players won't do since once it hits the field it's not leaving.

I've seen a lot of players say and use

with sucker punch to get the KO once RM has used tera. Luckily, sucker punch is almost always a 2HKO with or without allies fainted.

252+ Atk No allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 171-202 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 205-243 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This means as soon as

switches in, the opponent can either switch to something that can counter it like

,

,

, etc. to gain momentum (which I don't think happens), or pop the air balloon on the switch and kill with EQ the next turn.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

The downside of RM is as soon as it leaves the field and loses the boost, it becomes a lot easier to manage. This means players are pretty reluctant to switch RM out, especially after a DD boost, which becomes problematic for people facing RM since this means there's really only a 2-3 turn window to deal with RM.

I don't believe RM is completely busted, but I do think the counter play options are suffocating to deal with and it feels like the game comes to a grinding halt when facing it since there is very limited time to deal with it before it gets out of hand. RM has viable matchups and we can list as many as we want, but at the end of the day most players won't use those mons because they're too weak/inconsistent in most scenarios for OU play.

 

[quacc]

Alright, here's my take on the Roaring Moon situation. I haven't gotten reqs yet, but I'll finish those up soon when I have free time.


Roaring Moon theoretically has counters and for sure checks; curse Dondozo, static, flame body, red card, certain sets of Mandibuzz, mons carrying toxic such as Gliscor, and scald fishing, just to name a few.

Now, I am on the fence for this suspect, but I will say that I will either be voting BAN or ABSTAIN. Why?

You know all those counters I mentioned? It's essentially a guessing game between all the sets. Taunt sets can make Dondozo's life infinitely harder,it's near impossible for Moltres or Talonflame to actually will-o-wisp it, Zapdos cannot thunder wave, Gliscor cannot toxic, and Mandibuzz cannot roost to improve its longevity, but mons such as Iron Hands (wait a minute, that's a shitmon), offensive stone edge Landorus-T (who???), Dragonite, and tera options like Zamazenta could deal with Roaring Moon.

Now, what about red card mons? Let's look at the two main red card Pokemon in the game: red card Amoonguss and red card Ting-Lu.

Red card's issue is that the opposing Roaring Moon can just click knock off, which it usually will because not only is it the highest power move before tera, it's also a very easy to use and spammable move. This is a problem because now, instead of being phased out, Roaring Moon can then use whatever its set is to try and break past these Pokemon. Amoonguss is an extreme case of tragedy because the only move you can actually use red card for is earthquake. That's it.

Now, I know you're wondering about the elephant in the room; what about red card Alomomola?
The issue with red card Alomomola is that it's not an easy mon to slot; it relies on extreme hazard removal and specific team structures.

Ultimately, yes, there are Roaring Moon counters, but the issue is that Roaring Moon can pick and choose its counters with its set. Now, this isn't always a bad thing, so why is it bad for Roaring Moon?

Two words; speed and power.

This follows a similar argument I went off of when it came to the Kingambit ban, where one wrong assumption on tera can give Kingambit one too many turns to get enough power to plow through an entire team, but it is especially true for Roaring Moon. Let's say that your main form of Roaring Moon counterplay is toxic Gliscor, go figure (it's probably risen to top 5 in usage at this point). Nice counter right? Get taunted, and lose your turn. Now, this might just seem like a waste from both sides; Roaring Moon stopped the toxic, but Roaring Moon did not actually get to set up. However, Roaring Moon can freely dragon dance the next turn and gain enormous amounts of power and speed. Not only does a +1 +1 Roaring Moon hit one of the highest attack stats in the metagame, it is also IMPOSSIBLE to revenge kill; nothing actually viable outspeeds and kills this mon (no, scarf Dragapult is not a good mon, try me). Priority attacks? You guys act like it's frail on the physical side (spoiler, it isn't; it has 105 HP and 71 defense, which is bulkier than mons like Dragapult, Hatterene, and almost/about as bulky as Zapdos!), but how exactly are you revenge killing it? Yes, you can also manage it by just attempting to limit Roaring Moon's turns with your team of 6, but this is quite difficult (if not downright impossible) if you do not have anything that can even check both versions of this mon. Think of Dragapult and how it survived lots of priority attacks in gen 8; it could live a choice banded Weavile's ice shard! Roaring Moon is even harder to hit super effectively with priority moves AND is bulkier! If you even had the super effective priority such as mach punch Breloom, it wouldn't even matter, as tera would blank the hit and get another boost into a kill.

Now, what pushes Roaring Moon over the edge comparing this metagame to last metagame? It's the team structures.

Think about last metagame, the HOME meta; there were a lot of pivot heavy teams, which naturally prevented Roaring Moon from getting entries. This metagame, what do we have? Hyper offense cookie cutter strategies with Glimmora + Iron Valiant + Kingambit + 3 sweepers/breakers and Gliscor hazard stack teams. These teams give loads of entries for Roaring Moon, making it much more successful in this metagame.

So, what can we take away from this? Roaring Moon should get banned because in a metagame awfully similar to this one, each of the sets require drastically different countermeasures, and if you guess wrong, it just beats you down anyways.

Okay, the last thing to think about; if we ban Roaring Moon, what happens?

Well, it really would not change the metagame that much, but it would make hyper offense a lot more tame to deal with as well as increasing the amount of defensive play in the tier, which is not a bad thing considering the metagame is quite hyper offense-heavy.

Okay, what happens next after the ban?

Logically, to me, it should be a Gholdengo suspect into a Gliscor suspect. I genuinely believe Gliscor can be okay if Gholden-goes, but that's a shitpost to cook for another week.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Okay, what happens next after the ban?

Logically, to me, it should be a Gholdengo suspect into a Gliscor suspect. I genuinely believe Gliscor can be okay if Gholden-goes, but that's a shitpost to cook for another week.

i think gliscor is busted in a gholdless meta too and should be suspected before ghold. plenty of successful teams have been run with gliscor and no ghold; i ran one during my bloodmoon suspect run and almost actually got reqs, which is proof of how hard gliscor carries (and waterpon, and bloodmoon, and gambit). i'm becoming more and more on the fence about ghold and i think it deserves a suspect, but i'd still rather suspect ghold after everything else—since it's the most contentious topic, we should strive to create the most balanced environment to suspect it in, and whatever your feelings are on ghold you have to admit that banning gliscor would relieve hazard pressure

 

[artificialdeath]

The Weavile arguments are wild to me because it requires you to find a safe switchin/pivot and if Roaring Moon clicks DD, then you are relegated to Ice Sharding it. Ice Shard caps at 55% damage (averages about 50%) and you get OHKO’d.

It’s a cute idea and with the right core/support, Weavile is an underrated option that can RK or force a Tera pretty often in general in the metagame regardless of Moon, but it’s not exactly enough of a stopper to balance out Roaring Moon in this metagame.

With this in mind, not much is (a reliable stopper into Roaring Moon). There really haven’t been (m)any true switchins to it listed. A lot of the arguments for it to stay are “oh knock off can’t mean that much” or “oh gliscor is a bigger issue” and like sure both of those can be true, but neither is a reflection on Moon’s brokenness or lack thereof. Nobody has really tackled sufficient counterplay beyond claiming gameflow/skill issue, and I think that speaks volumes here.

I also think arguments about it ending stall or whatever are just misguided. It’s just as good into balance and the offensive matchup depends on how much you can stack priority and avoid locking yourself into setup opportunities. Roaring Moon is good across the board and arguably not even best strictly into stall, which hardly exists to begin with.

Look at the stronghold it had on teambuilding and the attention to detail it mandates with priorities in the battle. It’s just not a healthy dynamic. Same can be said for a few other things in the tier and I agree it’s not the most broken thing, but it still is banworthy and that’s the topic here at the end of the day.

sorry for the one liner but it's funny how we've gone full circle from "use weavile to check garchomp/salamence" to "use weavile to check RM". Not that RM was/is as meta defining as Chomp used to be

 

[Inv4lid_User]

• at its absolute fattest, dondozo gets 3hko'd by tera flying acrobatics 90% of the time and can't 2hko in return with liquidation. only the curse set wins this matchup, and even then you come out significantly damaged and possibly missing an item

Hope im not late but i'd like to support this point
Running curse dozo nowadays is pretty much asking to become fodder to (if running water stab i.e. liquidation) or (if running body press.)

If you do run both you cant slot in Sleep Talk (4MSS strikes again), which just means you're setup fodder vs everything else in the meta, and in this meta you especially do NOT want to give your opponents 2 whole free turns, especially when you have things such as the aforementioned , , Nasty Plot , etc running around.


So while curse dozo can theoretically be a slightly valid (?) check to RM, it actually is kind of a fraud.

 

[viivian]

• if moon is at +1 and tera flying, corv can't kill it faster than it can kill corv—brave bird recoil screws you over—so you have to play roost mindgames and hope that moon fucks up real bad and you avoid getting hit twice in a row. ironpress and bulk up do win this matchup, i think, but those sets have their own problems (the problems are named "gholdengo" and "gholdengo a second time")

yes, ID and bulk up sets do win this matchup very reliably, and are very conveniently its best and most common sets given how dominant HO is in this metagame. after one iron defense it completely walls RM and threatens big damage with body press.

and i should mention that even with ghold at #4 in usage and being better than ever, corv is still a very respectable OU mon in its own right. youre not running some overly niche shitmon or some nonsense set on an otherwise good mon to check RM, in which case i would understand why youd bring up corv as flawed. but youre running one of the best and most reliable physical walls in the tier, with or without ghold, to consistently check a powerful physical threat. ghold is an issue for corv, yes, but the current issue at hand, roaring moon, is not. and thats what matters more given the suspect.

and lastly, even if moon runs taunt to stop it from setting up an iron defense it still takes quite a lot of damage if corv goes for an attack. and given its bulk, corv has quite a few opportunities for go for an attack and get in some damage

• at its absolute fattest, dondozo gets 3hko'd by tera flying acrobatics 90% of the time and can't 2hko in return with liquidation. only the curse set wins this matchup, and even then you come out significantly damaged and possibly missing an item

the only issue i have with dondozo as a check to roaring moon is that losing its boots seriously harms its longevity and mandates either wish support or strict hazard control. with either, however, it becomes very reliable as a blanket check to RM, taking its hits rather well and threatening big damage with body press. tera slightly worsens its matchup into moon but it still takes just enough hits to keep itself alive while chipping down moon. i will say however that if moon is running taunt over coverage then dozo struggles more against it than corv does, but it can still survive long enough to get off enough damage for something else to finish it off

• fishing for static or flame body is inherently unreliable. it's not counterplay, it's counterprayer

you have multiple opportunities for fish for procs considering moon usually isnt 2HKOing defensive variants of zapdos and moltres at +1. this gives them a 60% chance to para or burn the moon. if the moon user knows this and tries setting up another DD to kill them then they risk getting parad or burned by thunder wave/will-o-wisp. and if moon has really backed you into a corner and you have no other option, then the use of defensive tera such as tera fairy lets you tank knock off and guarantees you more turns to either cripple it right away and wall it or fish for more static/flame body procs. these two are a bit shakier as moon answers than corv or dozo but are still ultimately doing their job in this matchup, even if they die or are forced to tera

• probably moon's most solid answer if you play the matchup right, but it should be banned anyway, so it falls under "broken checks broken"

once again, this is not about anything but RM and what makes it broken/not broken. kingambit is in the meta and likely will be sticking around for a very long time, and is imo the best answer to moon of all the mons mentioned especially w/ tera intact. if its running EQ or brick break then you tera to take the hit (since its very predictable once you know its coming) and either setup an SD or attack and kill it. if its running taunt to shut down defensive counterplay then you pretty much just lose to gambit on the spot. if its at low enough health and/or if gambit has enough fallen allies then sucker punch kills it, who cares what set its running if its low enough for gambit to sucker

 

[Just A Shroom God]

yes, ID and bulk up sets do win this matchup very reliably, and are very conveniently its best and most common sets given how dominant HO is in this metagame. after one iron defense it completely walls RM and threatens big damage with body press.

and i should mention that even with ghold at #4 in usage and being better than ever, corv is still a very respectable OU mon in its own right. youre not running some overly niche shitmon or some nonsense set on an otherwise good mon to check RM, in which case i would understand why youd bring up corv as flawed. but youre running one of the best and most reliable physical walls in the tier, with or without ghold, to consistently check a powerful physical threat. ghold is an issue for corv, yes, but the current issue at hand, roaring moon, is not. and thats what matters more given the suspect. and lastly even if moon runs taunt to stop it from setting up an iron defense it still takes quite a lot of damage if corv goes for an attack

Corv is actually shit due to being completely outclassed as an ID/BP user by Zamazenta, outclassed as a physical wall by Dondozo, and inviting in stuff like Moth, Ghold, Enam, and Manaphy. No idea why you simply dismiss the issue that Corv invites this stuff in because yes, if the outside metagame is hostile to it that makes it relevant to the suspect.

the only issue i have with dondozo as a check to roaring moon is that losing its boots seriously harms its longevity and mandates either wish support or strict hazard control. with either, however, it becomes very reliable as a blanket check to RM, taking its hits rather well and threatening big damage with body press. tera slightly worsens its matchup into moon but it still takes just enough hits to keep itself alive while chipping down moon. i will say however that if moon is running taunt over coverage then dozo struggles more against it than corv does, but it can still survive long enough to get off enough damage for something else to finish it off

"just use wish support, never switch in on its highest-powered stab, and then also be prepared to sack your physical wall if it teras OR has taunt"
lmao

you have multiple opportunities for fish for procs considering moon usually isnt 2HKOing defensive variants of zapdos and moltres at +1. this gives them a 60% chance to para or burn the moon. if the moon user knows this and tries setting up another DD to kill them then they risk getting burned or parad by will-o-wisp/thunder wave. and if moon has really backed you into a corner and you have no other option then the use of a defensive tera, such as fairy, guarantees you more turns to either cripple it right away and wall it or fish for more static/flame body procs. these two are a bit shakier as moon answers than corv or dozo but are still ultimately doing their job in this matchup, even if they die or are forced to tera

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 252-297 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 331-390 (86.1 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO


-60% is not 100%
-They do not want to switch in on a knock or risk losing all their longevity
-All of RM's other techs screw them over: Taunt, Sub, Stone Edge, and Roost.
-A burned/paralyzed RM is not the end of the world. If you switch in as it DDs, apply status as it DDs again, you're left with a regular roaring moon that is either very fast or very strong and that you can't significantly damage. Good luck!
-Moltres is UU and Zap typically wants to run its offensive set, which gets OHKOd by knock.

once again, this is not about anything but RM and what makes it broken/not broken. kingambit is in the meta and likely will be sticking around for a very long time, and is imo the best answer to moon of all the mons mentioned, especially if tera is intact. if its running EQ or brick break then you tera to take the hit (since its very predictable once you know its coming) and either setup an SD or attack and kill it. if its running taunt to shut down defensive counterplay then you pretty much just lose to gambit on the spot. if its at low enough health and/or if gambit has enough fallen allies then sucker punch kills it

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 256-303 (72.9 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 382-450 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

You HAVE to use your Tera for this, whereas moon doesn't have to use anything. The RM user can also just... predict the tera, switch out, come back in later to finish the job b/c it no longer resists Acro

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

yes, ID and bulk up sets do win this matchup very reliably, and are very conveniently its best and most common sets given how dominant HO is in this metagame.

most corvs are running roost, defog, u-turn, and either body press or brave bird. bulk up is used so little i'd actually call it borderline niche. they are not common sets, especially given that corv itself is at something like 7% usage so iron defense corv is in about 2% of battles. (i admit this data is almost a month old, but it's the most recent data we have. if november's data shows a significant jump in iron defense corv usage i will gladly eat crow on this matter)

the only issue i have with dondozo as a check to roaring moon is that losing its boots seriously harms its longevity and mandates either wish support or strict hazard control. with either, however, it becomes very reliable as a blanket check to RM, taking its hits rather well and threatening big damage with body press. tera slightly worsens its matchup into moon but it still takes just enough hits to keep itself alive while chipping down moon. i will say however that if moon is running taunt over coverage then dozo struggles more against it than corv does, but it can still survive long enough to get off enough damage for something else to finish it off

run the calcs, dozo doesn't beat tera flying moon 1v1 unless it's running curse or avalanche (and avalanche isn't even common enough to show up on the stats page). things don't "threaten big damage with body press" when moon's most common tera resists the move

you have multiple opportunities for fish for procs considering moon usually isnt 2HKOing defensive variants of zapdos and moltres at +1. this gives them a 60% chance to para or burn the moon. if the moon user knows this and tries setting up another DD to kill them then they risk getting parad or burned by thunder wave/will-o-wisp. and if moon has really backed you into a corner and you have no other option, then the use of defensive tera such as tera fairy lets you tank knock off and guarantees you more turns to either cripple it right away and wall it or fish for more static/flame body procs. these two are a bit shakier as moon answers than corv or dozo but are still ultimately doing their job in this matchup, even if they die or are forced to tera

rng is not counterplay. these are not checks.

once again, this is not about anything but RM and what makes it broken/not broken. kingambit is in the meta and likely will be sticking around for a very long time

this is absolutely bigger than roaring moon in a vacuum. just about everyone agrees that gambit is broken, they're just split on whether it's more broken than the other broken things running around. gambit should not factor into the question of "what makes roaring moon broken/not broken" because it's not even supposed to be here

 

[hidin]

having the opportunity to remove a pokemon thats deemed problematic by the community and council is something that should be taken, havent seen a single argument about why we should keep moon when all it does is add another broken threat that we hate to but have to cover. we also shouldnt be discussing other pokemon in the thread about just one, that can be dealt with in the future but for now lets talk about moon; yall are just making this more complex than it has to be. theres enough evidence in ban arguments and less evidence in DNB arguments so I think banning moon is the objective option, feel free to call me out tho and ill prob reply

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

havent seen a single argument about why we should keep moon when all it does is add another broken threat that we hate to but have to cover.

i'm playing devil's advocate here, but technically the burden of proof falls on the pro-ban side, so the anti-ban side doesn't actually need to make any arguments about why we should keep moon. i do agree, though, that the arguments for banning moon are compelling enough to convince me that it should go

 

[Jadedragon61]

I do think that roaring moon can be difficult to play against, but since it’s weak to much of the tier, gets walled by kingambit, and requires a turn setup where it is often ohkoed, lastly because there are other great options for dragon and dark types such as kingambit and walking wake, that make it a bit more difficult to slap it onto a team

 

[VicBossMG]

I do think that roaring moon can be difficult to play against, but since it’s weak to much of the tier, gets walled by kingambit, and requires a turn setup where it is often ohkoed, lastly because there are other great options for dragon and dark types such as kingambit and walking wake, that make it a bit more difficult to slap it onto a team

Idk what meta you’re playing, but RM is literally on HO teams and resist gambit pre Tera, can run brick break if needed for coverage or wear it dow with hazards, you have to scout what moves RM gets first and it usually will get a free ddance and has EQ as well for gambit and most gambits are not running the bulky set, but the 252 atk 252 speed rn. So EQ after one ddance EQ will ohko it unless you Tera.

 

[quacc]

i think gliscor is busted in a gholdless meta too and should be suspected before ghold. plenty of successful teams have been run with gliscor and no ghold; i ran one during my bloodmoon suspect run and almost actually got reqs, which is proof of how hard gliscor carries (and waterpon, and bloodmoon, and gambit). i'm becoming more and more on the fence about ghold and i think it deserves a suspect, but i'd still rather suspect ghold after everything else—since it's the most contentious topic, we should strive to create the most balanced environment to suspect it in, and whatever your feelings are on ghold you have to admit that banning gliscor would relieve hazard pressure

Gliscor is for sure strong even without support from Gholdengo, but I still think it is a symptom of Gholdengo in the tier. For example, one of the best counters to Gliscor is defog Corviknight, who cannot do anything against Gholdengo. Even if you don't face Gliscor with Gholdengo, you likely would not be carrying defog Corviknight that much on the ladder for the sole reason that if you face a Gholdengo in the matchup, Corviknight loses a major vein of utility for it.

If Gholdengo were banned, people would be more easily able to use Corviknight and, with less hazard stack power, there could be teams with less heavy-duty boots and more power-boosting items. For example, more choiced mons could be run without having to fear hazards weaknesses.

Now, Gliscor still might not be totally balanced, but we would need to see that in a metagame without Gholdengo. I feel like banning Gliscor would have a decent impact, but not as much as you'd think; people would just use a different hazard setter, which is nothing new; people have been doing this before the DLC to great results.

 

[Drifting]

If you look at the OU Viability Rankings, something becomes abundantly clear.

Hazard Management Methods which bypass or otherwise threaten Gholdengo:

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

Hazard Management Methods That Lose Outright to Ghold

*
* (no Thief)


It's pretty clear to me that Gholdengo is not the issue with the hazard metagame in this tier, and the people who insist it is are probably the same people who leaned on Corviknight as a crutch during Generation 8. Gholdengo has been mostly fine all Generation and it's clearly Gliscor, a spike-setter with infinite sustainability that comes in on itself, that is the main offender. No other hazard setter can achieve feats like setting up 3 spikes, getting them Court Changed, and then coming in to setup another three reliably. Even if you slot Ice Spinner on Tusk (lets be honest, mandatory right now), Gliscor just eats it, toxic's the Tusk and clicks Protect to take a net 50% that it can heal later against most physical attackers in the tier, winning the trade. The proof is in the pudding; Zamazenta used to run Band and now can only run boots. Sneasler used to run Protective Pads and now can only run boots. Even Kingambit, a Steel-type, these days seem to be mostly boots. Without Gliscor this becomes so much less of a problem. Sure, a Samurott-Hisui can set up a few hazards reliably, but it'll probably die doing it, meaning the problem goes away once you remove the hazards left behind.

It's not like Ghold going even really helps that much for Corv vs Gliscor. Corv comes in, and gets knocked while Defogging, which when hazards are so easy to set seems like a winning trade to me. It's not like Corv can threaten Gliscor at all, you're just letting it heal, losing your item, and giving it a free switch and therefore momentum into anything that beats Corv. In theory, Gholdengo shouldn't even be a great counter to Corviknight and Scizor, as they can U-Turn on the obvious switch and gain momentum while popping the likely balloon. The problem is, Corviknight is forced to run Iron Defense in this meta to cope with the insane physical threats such as... the one this suspect thread is about (which I recognize and apologize for the off-topic rant).

If you wanna say Ghold is broken for shit like breaking stall with NP Psyshock, as someone who uses stall fairly often I would retort:
1. Good stall teams all run Tera Dark Blissey these days
2. Psyshock Ghold is suboptimal into most other things, being a dedicated stallbreaker isn't ban-worthy or else mons like Hoopa-U and Ursaluna would be on the chopping block

Clearly to me, this mon is a positive contributing force to the meta (imagine fighting an Amoongus without it. Not fun.), and its versatility opens up a lot of doors in teambuilding, which I like. As I said, it hasn't been a problem until now, and maybe getting rid of the clearly-warping Michael Jordan of Spikes and Healing first is the right move. If Ghold is still broken after that, maybe, but, there are clearly far bigger meta warpers to address first, such as (to keep this on topic), tera-abusing set-up sweepers like Roaring Moon.

 

[viivian]

just a heads up, this is going to be a long one

Corv is actually shit due to being completely outclassed as an ID/BP user by Zamazenta, outclassed as a physical wall by Dondozo, and inviting in stuff like Moth, Ghold, Enam, and Manaphy. No idea why you simply dismiss the issue that Corv invites this stuff in because yes, if the outside metagame is hostile to it that makes it relevant to the suspect.

your first two points make absolutely no sense. corv has several distinct advantages over both dozo and zama with its access to reliable recovery, boasting a unique defensive typing allowing it to check rilla and waterpon and access to u-turn all of which dozo crucially lacks. zama utilizes iron defense in a completely different way than corv so it absolutely is not replacing corv as an ID user. all of this is completely null so not sure why you brought that up

enam invites itself in and does....what exactly? if its the sub + CM set you dont do anything back to it and even if its running mystical fire corv still comfortably takes it in a pinch and can easily roost the damage off when it next comes in. and if all else fails then enam is most certainly not stopping it from u-turning out into a faster threat. mana is threatening, yes, and so is giving it a free turn to set up. but again youre not stopping it from gaining momentum and bringing in something like pult or waterpon to pick it off. ghold and moth are both fair points but both mons still have plenty of switch-ins corv can fall back on. and while the meta is hostile to it, yes, it doesnt make it unviable. its sitting at a very respectable B+ rank on the VR. it has its own struggles, as does every pokemon. this does not discredit it as a viable physdef wall and check to roaring moon

"just use wish support, never switch in on its highest-powered stab, and then also be prepared to sack your physical wall if it teras OR has taunt"
lmao

standard dondozo does admittedly struggle more against tera flying moon w/ proto attack but if you adapt to it by running avalanche and/or curse then your matchup becomes significantly better. but this 1v1 MU does indeed get weird sometimes. if youre running the right options that allow you to consistently threaten it then moon is a non-issue for dozo. without them you can blanket check it but its not the usual brick wall it usually is against most other physical sweepers. id still say its not a matchup RM particularly enjoys but teams relying on dozo as their primary physical wall should adapt their dozos set to match up better into moon, in which case answering it becomes much more consistent

i will admit that i was wrong in thinking standard dondozo is a foolproof answer to RM, its not. with the right options it becomes much more consistent as an answer to moon however, but without them it gets more volatile

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 252-297 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 331-390 (86.1 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO


-60% is not 100%
-They do not want to switch in on a knock or risk losing all their longevity
-All of RM's other techs screw them over: Taunt, Sub, Stone Edge, and Roost.
-A burned/paralyzed RM is not the end of the world. If you switch in as it DDs, apply status as it DDs again, you're left with a regular roaring moon that is either very fast or very strong and that you can't significantly damage. Good luck!
-Moltres is UU and Zap typically wants to run its offensive set, which gets OHKOd by knock.

• the calcs just prove my point, at best it has a 1/8 chance of OHKOing bulky zap after a boost.
• yes, 60% obviously isnt 100% but its an interaction that is quite favorable for the zap/molt user.
• this one is fair, they absolutely do not like losing their boots. it is still important for them to slow down any progress RM makes, however, so losing their boots in exchange for crippling moon, while certainly not ideal, is not a bad trade so to speak
• running taunt just means they can fish for hurricane confusion instead (and discharge para for zap) and doesnt stop moon from risking static/flame body procs, roost doesnt even stop moon from risking itself getting hit by status and i have not seen sub or stone edge on moon at all when getting reqs. where did either of those sets come from? not even trying to be condescending i genuinely have never seen them.
• yes but a burned/parad RM is significantly easier for teams to handle, defensively and/or offensively.
• both still have quite a lot of positive traits in this metagame. they may not be as common anymore but they still have a place on bulkier teams and are very reliable as checks to some of the powerful threats (both old and new) that have risen in usage as of late

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 256-303 (72.9 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 382-450 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

You HAVE to use your Tera for this, whereas moon doesn't have to use anything. The RM user can also just... predict the tera, switch out, come back in later to finish the job b/c it no longer resists Acro

are we acting like burning tera on the best late-game sweeper, tera abuser and best mon in the game period is....a bad thing? if gambit teras then it gets a free turn to do whatever it wants right in front of moon, set up an SD, attack, all while living whatever you try hitting it with. if you predict the tera and switch then you either give it an even more free SD or risk switching in on a powerful hit and potentially losing your mon. what a great trade!

View attachment 564637most corvs are running roost, defog, u-turn, and either body press or brave bird. bulk up is used so little i'd actually call it borderline niche. they are not common sets, especially given that corv itself is at something like 7% usage so iron defense corv is in about 2% of battles. (i admit this data is almost a month old, but it's the most recent data we have. if november's data shows a significant jump in iron defense corv usage i will gladly eat crow on this matter)

despite what the usage stats say defog corv is infact bad in this metagame and always has been, though im sure everyone here knows that. even then running defog corv means you just lose to roaring moon, sneasler, SD valiant, ogerpon, zamazenta, etc etc. and dont actually do your job of checking them very well, if at all. if youre running defog corv to check roaring moon, youre doing something wrong. if youre using defog corv at all, youre doing something seriously wrong.

run the calcs, dozo doesn't beat tera flying moon 1v1 unless it's running curse or avalanche (and avalanche isn't even common enough to show up on the stats page). things don't "threaten big damage with body press" when moon's most common tera resists the move

running avalanche dondozo is actually a great adaptation to roaring moon that i imagine will be picked up on in the future if moon ends up staying, and can also reliably threaten several other physical sweepers in the meta (dragonite, waterpon, tera flying sneas/gambit, etc.) so unironically not a bad option. curse has always seen on and off use as a reliable blanket check to setup sweepers and this is no different. without either however, i do find that the matchup gets a bit shaky if moon has burned tera after running several calcs. its not horrible but its not as consistent as one would like when looking for defensive counterplay to RM, and so running avalanche/curse becomes much more necessary to always beat moon after tera

rng is not counterplay. these are not checks.

quite a few variants of bulky zap/molt commonly run thunder wave and will-o-wisp anyway just in case. so you live the hit, if static/flame body procs immediately then great, if it doesnt then moon still has to fear getting hit with thunder wave/will-o-wisp. its near impossible to avoid getting crippled in this matchup, even if the birds get crippled or die theyve still successfully halted your sweep in some way shape or form which is huge

this is absolutely bigger than roaring moon in a vacuum. just about everyone agrees that gambit is broken, they're just split on whether it's more broken than the other broken things running around. gambit should not factor into the question of "what makes roaring moon broken/not broken" because it's not even supposed to be here

its here now and thats what matters. should kingambit be retested in the future? yes, but the time will come when the council decides on it. this suspect thread is made with intentions of discussing if roaring moon, in the current state of the metagame (so including gambit), is too much for the tier.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I want to also add that the fact that "lead roaring moon, press dragon dance, Tera turn one or two" is a remotely viable strategy is absolutely ridiculous

The tier being littered with Spikes was a problem even before Gliscor, so I don't believe banning Gliscor solves the problem. Gholdengo, the one mon making it hard to remove hazards, has been present since the beginning of the meta, and it is the main reason why hazard control is so shitty because of Good As Gold's interaction with Defog. Easy hazards makes most offensive Pokemon more powerful after all. Gholdengo should be a priority to ban after the Roaring Moon suspect, not after Indigo Disk drops, as it is a large part of why OU is in such a poor state of balance. Players should actually have to work to get multiple layers down rather than it being the easiest thing ever like it is now.

not that this thread is about this, but Gliscor is unique among ALL hazard setters for being virtually impossible to wear down without a few very specific Pokémon (strong water STAB)

If you look at the OU Viability Rankings, something becomes abundantly clear.

Hazard Management Methods which bypass or otherwise threaten Gholdengo:

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

Hazard Management Methods That Lose Outright to Ghold

*
* (no Thief)


It's pretty clear to me that Gholdengo is not the issue with the hazard metagame in this tier, and the people who insist it is are probably the same people who leaned on Corviknight as a crutch during Generation 8. Gholdengo has been mostly fine all Generation and it's clearly Gliscor, a spike-setter with infinite sustainability that comes in on itself, that is the main offender. No other hazard setter can achieve feats like setting up 3 spikes, getting them Court Changed, and then coming in to setup another three reliably. Even if you slot Ice Spinner on Tusk (lets be honest, mandatory right now), Gliscor just eats it, toxic's the Tusk and clicks Protect to take a net 50% that it can heal later against most physical attackers in the tier, winning the trade. The proof is in the pudding; Zamazenta used to run Band and now can only run boots. Sneasler used to run Protective Pads and now can only run boots. Even Kingambit, a Steel-type, these days seem to be mostly boots. Without Gliscor this becomes so much less of a problem. Sure, a Samurott-Hisui can set up a few hazards reliably, but it'll probably die doing it, meaning the problem goes away once you remove the hazards left behind.

It's not like Ghold going even really helps that much for Corv vs Gliscor. Corv comes in, and gets knocked while Defogging, which when hazards are so easy to set seems like a winning trade to me. It's not like Corv can threaten Gliscor at all, you're just letting it heal, losing your item, and giving it a free switch and therefore momentum into anything that beats Corv. In theory, Gholdengo shouldn't even be a great counter to Corviknight and Scizor, as they can U-Turn on the obvious switch and gain momentum while popping the likely balloon. The problem is, Corviknight is forced to run Iron Defense in this meta to cope with the insane physical threats such as... the one this suspect thread is about (which I recognize and apologize for the off-topic rant).

If you wanna say Ghold is broken for shit like breaking stall with NP Psyshock, as someone who uses stall fairly often I would retort:
1. Good stall teams all run Tera Dark Blissey these days
2. Psyshock Ghold is suboptimal into most other things, being a dedicated stallbreaker isn't ban-worthy or else mons like Hoopa-U and Ursaluna would be on the chopping block

Clearly to me, this mon is a positive contributing force to the meta (imagine fighting an Amoongus without it. Not fun.), and its versatility opens up a lot of doors in teambuilding, which I like. As I said, it hasn't been a problem until now, and maybe getting rid of the clearly-warping Michael Jordan of Spikes and Healing first is the right move. If Ghold is still broken after that, maybe, but, there are clearly far bigger meta warpers to address first, such as (to keep this on topic), tera-abusing set-up sweepers like Roaring Moon.

very well said

 

[gregdawiz]

If you look at the OU Viability Rankings, something becomes abundantly clear.

Hazard Management Methods which bypass or otherwise threaten Gholdengo:

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

Huh I wonder why these mons are OU.. Also gotta say some of these are a cope. and do not beat ghold and thats a reason they aren't OU right now. is weezing and it really does not do enough to justify its role in OU besides being a cheese way of getting around Ghold which is in itself a sign of Ghold's brokenness. And many of these other mons are in a similar boat which is why theyre not even making OU by usage. What this post fails to mention besides as another potential defogger walled by Ghold, is that a lot of mons that threaten Gholdengo not only are now forced to run coverage to allow itself to beat Ghold (or uturn in the case of /), but also need to run the offense and speed investment to allow it to beat faster Gholds. This is a funny restriction since it limits a lot of these pokemon's ability to do their job as a consistent hazard remover. Imagine if you forced every bulky defogger in previous gens to stop running bulk investment and instead go in on offenses just to beat one mon.

Not only that but Ghold can trade its life to keep up spikes and allow another offensive threat to come in and get free kills from there with the assistance of the spikes that weren't removed. What is also lost in this discussion on is that it is losing turns clicking spikes. This isn't an issue if it only has to click spikes 3 turns to keep them up the whole game, but it becomes a big issue when those spikes keep getting removed. Sure you can knock Corv and pivot but then you arent getting up spikes. And if you do start getting up spikes i could easily predict and go into one of my Gliscor answers. may be broken still without Ghold, but let's not pretend hazard stack wasn't still an issue before dropped. It was and is an issue when paired with , , etc.. I'm tired of pretending the first pokemon that is able to truly block hazard removal is somehow balanced when all the discussion we're having right now is about how hazards are an issue. It's pure copium. Maybe its just people are too dependent on Gholdengo in the tier that they would sooner die than admit that thing is a problem.

PS. yes it cant beat stall if you run specifically tera dark blissey with shadow ball. But like cmon look at that. Even besides offensive ghold, the impact that it alone has on stall however cannot be understated purely by existing. And maybe Hoopa-U would be considered banworthy if it were also blocking hazard removal, easily slottable into most teams, and had one of, if not, the best typing in the game.

 

[Ehmcee]

• yes, 60% obviously isnt 100% but its an interaction that is quite favorable for the zap/molt user.

Small post, but had to call this out.

It isn't 60%, that's an incorrect reading of probablity.

It'd be 30% + (30% of 70%), so 51%.

So yeah, I wouldn't necessarely consider what is basically a 50/50 favourable

 

[viivian]

that i will admit is untrue and I did misinterpret the odds of static/flame body procs. what still remains true is that zapdos and moltres can still cause a lot of problems for RM and very rarely go out without getting off a para or burn

 

[Drifting]

Huh I wonder why these mons are OU.. Also gotta say some of these are a cope. and do not beat ghold and thats a reason they aren't OU right now. is weezing and it really does not do enough to justify its role in OU besides being a cheese way of getting around Ghold which is in itself a sign of Ghold's brokenness. And many of these other mons are in a similar boat which is why theyre not even making OU by usage. What this post fails to mention besides as another potential defogger walled by Ghold, is that a lot of mons that threaten Gholdengo not only are now forced to run coverage to allow itself to beat Ghold (or uturn in the case of /), but also need to run the offense and speed investment to allow it to beat faster Gholds. This is a funny restriction since it limits a lot of these pokemon's ability to do their job as a consistent hazard remover. Imagine if you forced every bulky defogger in previous gens to stop running bulk investment and instead go in on offenses just to beat one mon.

Not only that but Ghold can trade its life to keep up spikes and allow another offensive threat to come in and get free kills from there with the assistance of the spikes that weren't removed. What is also lost in this discussion on is that it is losing turns clicking spikes. This isn't an issue if it only has to click spikes 3 turns to keep them up the whole game, but it becomes a big issue when those spikes keep getting removed. Sure you can knock Corv and pivot but then you arent getting up spikes. And if you do start getting up spikes i could easily predict and go into one of my Gliscor answers. may be broken still without Ghold, but let's not pretend hazard stack wasn't still an issue before dropped. It was and is an issue when paired with , , etc.. I'm tired of pretending the first pokemon that is able to truly block hazard removal is somehow balanced when all the discussion we're having right now is about how hazards are an issue. It's pure copium. Maybe its just people are too dependent on Gholdengo in the tier that they would sooner die than admit that thing is a problem.

PS. yes it cant beat stall if you run specifically tera dark blissey with shadow ball. But like cmon look at that. Even besides offensive ghold, the impact that it alone has on stall however cannot be understated purely by existing. And maybe Hoopa-U would be considered banworthy if it were also blocking hazard removal, easily slottable into most teams, and had one of if not the best typing in the game.

I appreciate your response as it does make some good counter-arguments. Admittedly writing my post I was probably exaggerating a bit because I was exasperated by how common takes like "gliscor wouldn't even be broken without gholdengo" seem to be in ou discussions. To reiterate, I'm not strictly against a Ghold suspect, and am just trying to say that clearly broken shit like Gliscor, Tera Set-Up mons like Waterpon and Veil/Webs abusers like Manaphy are making the mon seem much more scarier than it actually is and should be tackled first, and then Ghold if it's still broken.

Some of the mons included in the list are suboptimal yes, but I didn't make the VR. It was more intended to be a snappy commentary on how Ghold only really restricts Corv than any ironclad argument (which is what the main body of my post moreso was). Also you're underrating Weezing. Also Cyclizar definitely can beat Ghold, the most popular pre-DLC stall team used it for this purpose (among others). Cyclizar and Mandibuzz are restricted by Gliscor is mostly why they're not OU.

The fact of the matter is that hazard-stack wasn't this bad before Gliscor. Samurott and Ting-Lu were powerhouses in the tier, but Pokemon were at least allowed to run items other than boots lol, and leftovers reliant Pokemon like Heatran and Garg were actually good. My biggest fear is that banning Gholdengo would massively catapult the usage of Corviknight (an extremely obnoxious Pokemon that actually feels reasonably strong in this meta for once). The ensuing Corviknight/Amoongus meta sounds like it could very well be duller than this one (and probably even more braindead, which makes the implication that I'm "reliant on Ghold" particularly amusing lol). At the end of the day, Corviknight is the only significant hazard remover that can't deal with Ghold. A single Pokemon, and a notably irritating one at that historically speaking. Unless you're reliant on Corv for whatever reason then using literally anything else would work, except for the fact that Gliscor invalidates most of them (e.g. Cinderace, Mandibuzz, Tusk).

To summarise, the biggest priorities for the time being should be to go after the Gliscor's, Waterpon's, Gambit's, Light Clay's and whatever else needs to go until DLC2 where we can hopefully re-examine how tera has lead to one of the most volatile and heavily banned metagames ever. We can look at Ghold then, since don't get me wrong it's a top 3 mon sans some of the obvious brokens, but there are such more important things. Also you don't need to be Tera Dark Shadow Ball on stall Blissey, I prefer flamethrower myself.

P.S. At this point this is absolutely derailing. If you wanna respond can you tag me in the OU Discussion thread please? This is at the end of the day about Moon first and foremost and I don't want to take away from that. My stance on moon remains Ban for reasons listed by Finch and everyone else.

 

[Ehmcee]

that i will admit is untrue and I did misinterpret the odds of static/flame body procs. what still remains true is that zapdos and moltres can still cause a lot of problems for RM and very rarely go out without getting off a para or burn

I'm saying there's a 49% chance they don't get off a para or burn, I wouldn't say that's very rarely.

 

[viivian]

I'm saying there's a 49% chance they don't get off a para or burn, I wouldn't say that's very rarely.

defensive variants of zapdos and moltres typically run thunder wave and will-o-wisp, the latter being especially common on molt. even if you dont get the contact ability proc you can still cripple it w/ status