Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Fly Me to the Moon [ Council announcement Post #2 ]

[ssz7ytreal]

FINALLY someone is saying it because jfc this tier has been absolutely miserable because of how poor hazard control has been. If anything this gen has proven to me that Gamefreak does not care about a singles meta at all. Not only did they introduced an overdone pokemon like Gholdengo that folks refuse to believe is toxic, and they also added Glimmora with an Ability that sets toxic spikes. Then on top of they remove Defog from some pokemon, introduce two Pokemon in DLC that have DAMAGING moves that sets hazards, and reintroduce Glidcor. It is straight up miserable. Defog is not reliable, Rapid Spin is blocked, Magic Bounce is not viable, Court Change is high risk. This just does not work in a meta that introduced the gimmick of type changes(which honestly upends the whole foundation of the game) as well as such aggressive new pokemon who's checks and counters are hindered by hazards. I will vote to not ban Moon...there are many other factors like hazards being so low risk/high reward, Gholdengo and King(rewards poor plays). The tier is just miserable and stale to play right now and we keep going down the list banning stuff that may not even be the main issue...:(

I agree with this

Going to give short and brief thoughts as this isn't very complex to me.

The tier in my opinion will not get better with the removal of Roaring Moon. I have not found it to be too much for the tier or the main problem with the tier. The main problem with the tier currently is Hazard Control. Hopefully, once this is done we can turn our attention to the leader in this issue Gliscor, and the thing that has been a pillar in this problem Gholdengo. We need to focus more attention on the defensive woes of this tier rather then the offensive threats. If I'm able to find time to get reqs I will vote no ban

I agree again with whoever posted that one
I can't link 2 posts at once for some reason
I also think that without Roaring Moon the teir would be overwhelmed with stall and I doubt that anybody would want that

 

[SciWiz373]

I agree with this
I agree again with whoever posted that one
I can't link 2 posts at once for some reason
I also think that without Roaring Moon the teir would be overwhelmed with stall and I doubt that anybody would want that

People have already refuted both of the things you're quoting, and your replies to others have consisted of "You are right but idc I'm voting no ban anyways"

That doesn't seem like, a fair assessment or rational way of thinking/voting.

also Stall continues to be a Buzzword.

 

[Return to Zero]

I also think that without Roaring Moon the teir would be overwhelmed with stall and I doubt that anybody would want that

People were saying this about Chien-Pao when it was suspected and at this point I have to conclude you all have no concept of object permanence. Not only is what you're saying blatantly, provably untrue, just like it was the last few times it was said, not only is it unhelpful to campaign for action based on the nebulous threat of "stall", it has 100% nothing to do with the point of a suspect test. Roaring Moon might be broken. So, let's discuss. If you get reqs, vote however you want, but since you want to post here try to have something of substance to say.

 

[`ShadowTwo]

I also think that without Roaring Moon the teir would be overwhelmed with stall and I doubt that anybody would want that

People said the same for the suspect test of Chien-Pao, but when it was banned, the opposite happened: the usage of defensive Pokémon dropped, while Baxcalibur and Iron Moth entered the top 10 from OU the following month.

 

[zannty]

I also think that without Roaring Moon the teir would be overwhelmed with stall and I doubt that anybody would want that

As someone who almost exclusively plays stall I can confidently say that roaring moon is not in my top 5 threats I care about in OU. When looking at the opposing team I identify pokemon that will be problematic for me and I need to make sure I keep my answers alive for. Roaring moon is not one of these generally. To put this in persepctive gholdengo, manaphy, kingambit, ogerpon wellspring, slowking galar, walking wake, and rillaboom are all more impactful threats against stall. Roaring moon is not keeping stall down by any means.


Now on to my thoughts on roaring moon. I am the most conflicted about roaring moon out of all of the suspect tests I have been a part of (this is currently my third I have gotten the reqs for. The other 2 were pretty easy votes for me imo (gambit and BM Luna). Roaring moon is right on the edge for me as too what is too broken and should be allowed however, I don't think roaring moon is too good right now, but am still not sure. Roaring moon while an amazing attacker and set up sweeper suffers from many pitfalls. Firstly, it is extremely reliant on tera to be effective which extremely is a very real cost as opposed to pokemon that are extremely threatening without tera like BM Luna and gambit are (yes both get better with tera but without tera they are both extremely threatening nonetheless). Also without tera moon is very weak into fairy types like valiant and clefable which are both great pokemon in the OU tier. Secondly, roaring moon also never runs boots which means that hazards can very much limit the effectiveness of this pokemon and limit the amount of times it is able to come in. Also it rarely doesn't want to switch out after it comes in at first since it no longer gets the photosynthesis boost.

I think the problem that could be pushing moon over the top is its new access to knock off which can make answers like zamazenta and dondozo which can hurt the utility of the pokemon later on making you not want to use them against roaring moon if possible. On the otherhand having access to dragon dance can make it hard for pokemon that don't care about knock off to care about it too much. Clefable, gliscor, and really any booster mon doesn't mind knock off, however they can all get punished by DD and now either being slower than moon now (like valiant) or not being able to take hits from it anymore. Unaware clef is a possibility to answer it but that's not too common. Magic guard seems to be more common in my experience. These are the reasons I could see it getting banned, a great move pool that with the edition of knock off makes it too hard and costly to deal with.

Of note though a max attack roaring moon at +1 speed will still be out-sped by a max speed and booster energyed iron valiant and iron moth. Also of note, gliscor with toxic can generally switch into a roaring moon and get a toxic off. If they click dragon dance on the switch you can take a hit no matter what it is as long as it doesn't crit. If they click knock it only deals 47% at most. And if they tera flying acrobatics it will deal 55.6% at most. Which when you factor in the 12% recovery from poison heal it can survive 2 hits and get a toxic off. Then the moon is on a timer.

I will also say that I did not consider choice band roaring moon in my calcs or when talking about my checks since I find it extremely vulnerable after it KOs a Pokémon. You get a free switch to whatever answers it and they are either forced to switch out or to lose their moon. I think in general choice moon is worse than booster moon as well.

Roaring moon for me is an amazing set up sweeper with a great move pool (knock, roost, acrobatics, earthquake, dragon dance, etc) but is very reliant on tera to be effective and very weak to hazards. Its move pools and low amount of switch ins (clef, gliscor, dozo can all switch in pretty safely and pokes like iron valiant, zamzenta, iron moth can come in to revenge kill it) can are its biggest concerns. Overall I am leaning toward do not ban for roaring moon, but am still very undecided.

Calcs for Gliscor

252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 147-174 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 166-196 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 249-294 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 220-259 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

 

[Fusion Flare]

Of note though a max attack roaring moon at +1 speed will still be out-sped by a max speed and booster energyed iron valiant and iron moth.

I’m pretty skeptical towards Attack Protosynthesis sets. Why wouldn’t you want to take advantage of a speed tier that can overtake Iron Valiant, THE Booster Energy abuser?

Anyways, I’m considering a Do not ban for Roaring Moon. It still suffers moveset issues given that running Brick Break for Gambit and running Taunt for defensive Pokemon is a hard choice to make, and it’s still a pretty big Tera hog to make progress, with even things like Tusk eating non-stab Acrobatics. It’s still vulnerable to priority from things like Gambit and Rillaboom in spite of resisting said moves, and Knock Off may make it better vs Zapdos/Molt, but it still hates having to risk contact procs.

In my opinion one of the better sets is Taunt + Roost in tandem with Knock and Acrobatics for a devilishly good stallbreaker set, much better into Clefable and Dondozo, especially after tera. Unfortunately, getting stuffed by Gambit is a pretty big downside for this set, and you can still be cheesed with Scald burn fishing by Alomomola, who commonly pairs with Clef and Dozo. Perhaps even Jaw Lock if you’re really going all out on stall breaking, but it’s a bit too gimmicky for my tastes.

Overall, Roaring Moon’s a really good sweeper and has a lot of good tools to make it big in the metagame, but it’s old flaws still haunt it, and i believe that prevents it from being broken by any means.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I agree with this
I agree again with whoever posted that one
I can't link 2 posts at once for some reason
I also think that without Roaring Moon the teir would be overwhelmed with stall and I doubt that anybody would want that

I would be fine with this, but it is unfortunately totally untrue, there are plenty of Pokémon in OU that stall struggles with, Ogerpon-Wellspring and Gholdengo being particularly notable

 

[That_Dwayneee]

Of note though a max attack roaring moon at +1 speed will still be out-sped by a max speed and booster energyed iron valiant and iron moth.

No it won't be where did you get this from

 

[658Greninja]

I also think that without Roaring Moon the teir would be overwhelmed with stall and I doubt that anybody would want that

So glad I found an opportunity to use this image again.

I dunno if you stall fear-mongers know this but

More broken offensive threats lead to teams being forced to run walls over wallbreakers.

Less broken offensive threats lead to teams being more free to run wallbreakers.

 

[SilentKillerVGC]

I also think that without Roaring Moon the teir would be overwhelmed with stall and I doubt that anybody would want that

Daily reminder: people said the same thing about stall during Chien-Pao's suspect test and it's actually false.
The "counterplays" involves used a very specific pokemon or burn our own Tera on bulky pokemon to contain Chien-Pao. The usage of defensive pokemon dropped after Chien-Pao banned.

 

[NidoTheKing]

I feel like this thread is beginning to devolve into deflecting the blame onto other Pokemon and topics like Gliscor, Kingambit, hazard control and Stall as a whole instead of looking at what's supposed to be presented right now.

The purpose of the suspect is to discuss whether action taken against Roaring Moon would improve the tier, assuming no other changes to the tier occur. We can discuss the other outlying issues another time, but right now the focus is on Roaring Moon specifically, and whether removing it specifically would make the meta better or if doing so is unnecessary.

 

[RainbowPath2]

I'm not a very good player but I feel like all the fun pokemon to play with are getting a suspect test lately... I used to play a lot with Roaring Moon at the begenning of the generation (it was my very first team) and I never felt like I was playing a cheated pokemon because there was a lot of conters that existed then. And now, even after the first DLC release and the addition of knock of, thoses conters are still existing and currently played in OU. I don't know but... In the opinion of a guy that don't really play competitive but love to play a tier were the bigger threats are removed (unlike the official game), i also want the tier to be enjoyable when I play. It's ok to think strategically, but never forget that we also love to play without worrying about anything. :)

Ursaluna-B was also fun to play with. And I still want the ban of Kingambit.

 

[TFS]

The purpose of the suspect is to discuss whether action taken against Roaring Moon would improve the tier, assuming no other changes to the tier occur. We can discuss the other outlying issues another time, but right now the focus is on Roaring Moon specifically, and whether removing it specifically would make the meta better or if doing so is unnecessary.

While this is generally the case for suspect tests, it's been made abundantly clear - in this very thread, no less - that more tiering action will continue to occur after RM. Many voters believe that the issues with RM are strictly contingent on Pokemon that they know will be also subject to action regardless of the RM outcome - it's counterproductive not to take this into account before making a decision.

 

[artificialdeath]

I feel like this thread is beginning to devolve into deflecting the blame onto other Pokemon and topics like Gliscor, Kingambit, hazard control and Stall as a whole instead of looking at what's supposed to be presented right now.

The purpose of the suspect is to discuss whether action taken against Roaring Moon would improve the tier, assuming no other changes to the tier occur. We can discuss the other outlying issues another time, but right now the focus is on Roaring Moon specifically, and whether removing it specifically would make the meta better or if doing so is unnecessary.

I agree. I haven't had too much of an opportunity to play since the Ursa test, so I haven't really kept up with the suspects or ladder, but just looking at this thread, it feels like much of it has just become "why suspect Moon when [x] is also broken". All I'll say is that the Gambit suspect eventually became somewhat of a referendum on Tera rather than Gambit, and we all know how happy people were with the eventual results of that.

 

[shawk*+:)]

I used to play a lot with Roaring Moon at the begenning of the generation (it was my very first team) and I never felt like I was playing a cheated pokemon because there was a lot of conters that existed then. And now, even after the first DLC release and the addition of knock of, thoses conters are still existing and currently played in OU.

I don't know but... In the opinion of a guy that don't really play competitive but love to play a tier were the bigger threats are removed

I think you fail to understand that moon has zero counters. Futhermore, The “checks” it once had were held together by teralization and wishful thinking. These exact same checks fold to knock off aswell. Not to mention that Dozo and dierge fold to taunt sets.

Ursaluna-B was fun to play with. And I still want the ban of Kingambit.

Also we’re not looking at banning Kingambit now. (I doubt we will again before tera) We’re looking at Moon.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I feel like this thread is beginning to devolve into deflecting the blame onto other Pokemon and topics like Gliscor, Kingambit, hazard control and Stall as a whole instead of looking at what's supposed to be presented right now.

The purpose of the suspect is to discuss whether action taken against Roaring Moon would improve the tier, assuming no other changes to the tier occur. We can discuss the other outlying issues another time, but right now the focus is on Roaring Moon specifically, and whether removing it specifically would make the meta better or if doing so is unnecessary.

i've learned that this technically isn't the question to ask. the question is not "would removing roaring moon improve the tier", it's "is roaring moon banworthy" (and i believe the answer to both is "yes", by the way). there is a difference, but it's not easy to see most of the time because most bans do result in direct improvements to the meta. but, if we were to ban, say, a popular glue mon, it might destabilize things and create more problems than it solves, even if the ban were necessary. this is part of the reason why we don't make temporary suspect ladders anymore. thanks to finch for explaining all this to me a while back

but yes, i agree that the roaring moon suspect thread should be about roaring moon and pointing fingers at other mons isn't relevant

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Roaring Moon's wrecking havoc in OU, especially for stall lovers (such as myself). Its overwhelming offense, scarcity of counters, and teambuilding stress make a ban worth a thought to make the meta better

 

[Docter_Peng99]

3 words: icicle crash weavile. I am no where near qualified to post my vote but I can put my thoughts here, weavile outspeeds roaring moon and can ohko it in normal and tera form but you will have to get lucky with icicle crash and you have to make sure it's not booster speed or danced up but other than that I can't think of other counterplay to moon. Of course there is also booster speed valiant but a tera flying acrobatics plus dragon dance on moon is definitely enough to kill valiant.

 

[Finchinator]

The Weavile arguments are wild to me because it requires you to find a safe switchin/pivot and if Roaring Moon clicks DD, then you are relegated to Ice Sharding it. Ice Shard caps at 55% damage (averages about 50%) and you get OHKO’d.

It’s a cute idea and with the right core/support, Weavile is an underrated option that can RK or force a Tera pretty often in general in the metagame regardless of Moon, but it’s not exactly enough of a stopper to balance out Roaring Moon in this metagame.

With this in mind, not much is (a reliable stopper into Roaring Moon). There really haven’t been (m)any true switchins to it listed. A lot of the arguments for it to stay are “oh knock off can’t mean that much” or “oh gliscor is a bigger issue” and like sure both of those can be true, but neither is a reflection on Moon’s brokenness or lack thereof. Nobody has really tackled sufficient counterplay beyond claiming gameflow/skill issue, and I think that speaks volumes here.

I also think arguments about it ending stall or whatever are just misguided. It’s just as good into balance and the offensive matchup depends on how much you can stack priority and avoid locking yourself into setup opportunities. Roaring Moon is good across the board and arguably not even best strictly into stall, which hardly exists to begin with.

Look at the stronghold it had on teambuilding and the attention to detail it mandates with priorities in the battle. It’s just not a healthy dynamic. Same can be said for a few other things in the tier and I agree it’s not the most broken thing, but it still is banworthy and that’s the topic here at the end of the day.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

or anything with this priority.

the eteneral dilemna... do I laugh react at the insane take of including Breloom on a list of viable Roaring Moon checks (mfw the fucker grows wings), or do I love react hoping the breloom exposure will get my boy OU?

 

[TCTphantom]

While I understand this was the highest voted individual mon on the survey, I feel like this is like using a band aid to block severe bleeding. Roaring Moon, while a strong mon, is not the biggest priority for a test. I know that there's plenty of people arguing to test either Gliscor or Gholdengo in an attempt to fix the hazards game. Kingambint is also a controversial mon as it always has been. If I had full control, I would have looked at either of those first.

Putting aside my personal feelings, I do think Roaring Moon is a borderline problematic mon right now. Some of the main team styles that are seeing play rn are HO teams (Webs, Veil, heck even Sun tbh) and Gliscor Balance, both of which Roaring Moon does well against. Due to the environment it is in, Roaring Moon is soaring well above its usual punching level. We dont have effective speed control for a +1 Roaring Moon. Choice Scarf is a scarce sight, and even then the number of scarfers who could outspeed and revenge kill Roaring Moon is slim. If Roaring Moon has not Tera'd, you can revenge kill it with Scarf Gren, Meow, or something like Unburden Sneasler. Keyword if.

I think it is a problem in this metagame, I just don't think its *the* problem. If I get reqs, I would lean ban just to do what we can to find a better meta. But I feel like Moon is a symptom of our problems, not the cause.

 

[viivian]

got reqs last week, will be voting DNB

vert and sylveon used calm mind pretty much explained everything better than i could but RM has always been extremely hard to stop once it gets going, ever since day 1 of SV. and so people naturally discovered various different checks and counterplay to RM and thus, they were used to check it. while its checks/counterplay did vary between sets, it was still something bulkier or balanced teams were able to handle. or more offensive teams tended to sack something after getting enough chip on it, then send in a revenge killer to pick it off afterward. so what changed for it to be potentially ubers? knock off? huge obviously, but thats not stopping most pokemon used to stop it in the past. corv doesnt mind knock and still gets a bit of helmet chip on it, dozo doesnt appreciate it but still takes it on nonetheless, zap and molt can fish for static/flame body procs and youd have to be delusional to knock into gambit. having knock helps against a lot of its switch-ins and does force a ton of progress, but truly its not game-breaking for moon. even if it had knock during HOME it still wouldnt be suspect-worthy.

i just find that this meta is way way way too polarized between stall and HO at the moment, and its in these conditions that moon really tends to thrive. if it runs brick break then it easily destroys screens HO while still matching very well into other offensive teams, whereas taunt turns all defensive counterplay into setup fodder for it. with all that being said, i still think not being able to slot on both BB and taunt into its moveset seriously hurts it imo, since it means it either loses to gambit (which beats it with tera intact anyway) or struggles against walls like corv and dozo. not to mention how its extremely weak to priority and dislikes the presence of common defensive teras like fairy and steel. its undoubtedly very hard to stop in this polarized and unbalanced meta but its still possible, and if the meta starts heading in a more balanced direction in the near future then RM will certainly have a harder time sweeping past teams than it does now

all of the above is, of course, only taking the DD set into account which is the best and most common set and the reason why we are here now. but it does have one other set it tends to run only on one teamstyle, which is its choice band set on sun. this variant of RM is extremely strong but not only is it only found on sun teams but you have to choose between EVing to boost its attack or to boost its speed. if you run 252/4/252 w/ either adamant or jolly to boost your attack then you destroy all of your defensive counterplay but its at the cost of being outsped and KOd by threats such as gren, sneas, scarf enam, pult and +speed tusk/moth/val/wake. if you run 220/36/252 w/ jolly to boost your speed then you can outspeed all those threats mentioned above, great! but now bulkier teams have a much easier time withstanding your hits with the loss of raw power. even then this set is much more easily telegraphed and its counterplay really only depends on which stat its boosting so i wouldnt even consider this set to be of any contribution to its potential brokenness long-term

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

and so people naturally discovered various different checks and counterplay to RM and thus, they were used to check it and depending on its set, it worked.

are the checks and counterplay in the room with us right now?

no, seriously, are they? is there something i'm missing besides "just outspeed lol" or "just priority lol"? i'm not seeing anything that can reliably stop a moon sweep without it making massive progress

 

[viivian]

are the checks and counterplay in the room with us right now?

no, seriously, are they? is there something i'm missing besides "just outspeed lol" or "just priority lol"? i'm not seeing anything that can reliably stop a moon sweep without it making massive progress

they were listed in the same paragraph you got that from

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

they were listed in the same paragraph you got that from

here's the problem, though…

• if moon is at +1 and tera flying, corv can't kill it faster than it can kill corv—brave bird recoil screws you over—so you have to play roost mindgames and hope that moon fucks up real bad and you avoid getting hit twice in a row. ironpress and bulk up do win this matchup, i think, but those sets have their own problems (the problems are named "gholdengo" and "gholdengo a second time")
• at its absolute fattest, dondozo gets 3hko'd by tera flying acrobatics 90% of the time and can't 2hko in return with liquidation. only the curse set wins this matchup, and even then you come out significantly damaged and possibly missing an item
• fishing for static or flame body is inherently unreliable. it's not counterplay, it's counterprayer
• probably moon's most solid answer if you play the matchup right, but it should be banned anyway, so it falls under "broken checks broken"

note that i'm only factoring in the ddance tera flying acrobatics set with eq here. if moon's carrying taunt or roost instead of eq in the fourth slot, it becomes way harder for these to pretend to deal with it