Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Fly Me to the Moon [ Council announcement Post #2 ]

[Finchinator]

Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Roaring Moon!

Roaring Moon has been a controversial Pokemon all generation, having a stint on the initial tiering radars while also being controversial during the peak of the Shed Tail era. With this in mind, Roaring Moon also had some low points, even briefly falling out of OU and being seen as more of an inconsistent sweeping option during the middle of this year. However, the release of DLC2 granted it STAB Knock Off and a more welcoming role on offense. In response to its recent surge and potential lack of counterplay, the SV OU's qualified playerbase gave it a 3.7 out of 5 on the recent survey, which is well above that of any other Pokemon in the metagame. While there was some internal support to vote on a potential quickban, we felt it did not match the standard set by prior quickbans, falling more in-line with other suspects. In addition, other suspects were discussed and are very likely to be entertained in the near future, but given the convincing margin Roaring Moon had over them from our qualified playerbase, we felt it was best to honor what our players felt was best.

Roaring Moon is one of the most threatening Pokemon in OU; it has all of the strength, speed, and coverage needed to be a destructive offensive force. In terms of strength, 139 base attack is nothing to laugh at. Couple this with the high likelihood that Booster Energy will increase its attacking stat further upon initial entry and you get one of the hardest hitting options the metagame has to offer. If you want to go a step further, Dragon Dance is a staple on Roaring Moon outside of Sun while Sun teams oftentimes opt to utilize a Choice Band on it, making it as if Roaring Moon had an attack boost regardless. Needless to say, damage output is not a factor that holds back Roaring Moon, but rather lands it in suspect discussions to begin with.

In terms of speed, it boasts 119 base speed, which is superb, but not unbeatable. Without a boost in speed due to Dragon Dance or Protosynthesis, revenge killing Roaring Moon is attainable with common Pokemon like Dragapult, Booster Energy Iron Valiant, Zamazenta-Hero, and specific Choice Scarf or priority users. However, we cannot overlook the two aforementioned conditions of Dragon Dance and Protosynthesis as the former is the focus of many Roaring Moon variants while the latter comes into play often on Sun teams or when players opt for a speed boosting Booster Energy variant, which is much less common than attack boosting. With a boost to its speed, Roaring Moon practically outruns the entire format and revenge killing is relegated to priroity, which can admiteddly be effective into it depending upon the specific situation.

In terms of movepool and coverage, Roaring Moon is always running Knock Off and Acrobatics on Dragon Dance variants. Acrobatics may seem bizarre from afar, but when you pair it with Booster Energy and potentially even Tera Flying, you get one of the strongest possible attacks. Moving forward, Roaring Moon can opt to bolster its coverage further to dispatch of Kingambit, healthier Heatran, or less common Pokemon like Empoleon and Tyranitar with Brick Break or Earthquake as well. However, this last moveslot -- alongside Dragon Dance, Knock Off, and Acrobatics -- is commonly Roost, which bolsters longevity and provides extra opportunities, or Taunt, which can spell trouble for bulkier foes like Gliscor, Toxapex, Corviknight, and Ting Lu. The coverage between two moves is good while opting for a third attack makes it near perfect while the other options improve other match-ups across the board, giving Roaring Moon a great deal of potential. On choiced sets, Roaring Moon oftentimes opts to run Outrage, Knock Off, U-turn, and one of Iron Head, Earthquake, or Brick Break as well depending upon the specific team.

As we lay out Roaring Moon's offensive profile, you may realize that very few things wish to withstand its offensive assault; you would be correct in coming to that assumption as there are few, if any, true counters to Roaring Moon. This is a major selling-point for a potential ban as it puts all of the aforementioned characteristics together to put a major strain on teambuilding through forcing specific schemes to assure it is checked if they remain healthy while putting a similar strain on gameplay as preserving resources to withstand it can be challenging, especially when it is paired with other strong and synergetic offensive options like Kingambit. This lack of defined defensive counterplay is quite worrisome and a large reason for why Roaring Moon has drawn the ire of many players and put itself in the middle of tiering discussions.

However, it is not all black-and-white like the above paragraph paints it out to be. In the context of games, Roaring Moon still needs at least one free entry and turn to set-up. Entry is oftentimes only gained by fodder or outmaneuvering the foe as it is not used as often with pivots as it is with stationary Pokemon seen on hyper offense, who also attempt to break or sweep the opponent rather than pivot around. While Roaring Moon has great 101 HP and 105 special defense, 71 defense makes it very susceptible to physical attacks, which can limit set-up opportunities a great deal. Moreover, it is not entirely unbeatable once it sets up; it is reliant on Tera to maximize damage output with Acrobatics and remove some weaknesses defensively while it can be defeated by a timely opposing Tera on the defensive end, too. This is not all either as priority can threaten Roaring Moon no matter how boosted its speed may be. Extreme Speed from Dragonite, especially if it is boosted by Tera Normal, is a great tool against Roaring Moon while Sucker Punch from Gambit can make quick work of a chipped Tera Flying Roaring Moon, which we encounter frequently. Finally, options like Bullet Punch Scizor, Mach Punch Conkeldurr, and Ice Shard Mamoswine or Weavile may not see the most usage, but can be very valuable against Roaring Moon.

Overall, Roaring Moon has become one of the staples of our metagame on offensive teams and many people have seen it go from containable to unreasonable with the release of DLC and the continuation of our metagame. Lack of defensive counterplay is worrisome and one cannot understate the strain Roaring Moon has on both building and playing. However, consistent offensive pressure can keep it from sweeping while priority can revenge kill Roaring Moon if sequenced well, making it more playable than some imagine. Given this and everything above, we will continue to look at Roaring Moon throughout this abbreviated suspect and come to a conclusion on it at the end of next week!

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test!!! The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUFC. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUFC Finch.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The suspect being tested, Roaring Moon, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will be lasting until October 27th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
  • THIS IS A SLIGHTLY SHORTER TEST THAN NORMAL AS WE ATTEMPT TO BALANCE THE METAGAME AFTER THE RELEASE OF DLC. PLEASE NOTE THIS WHEN PLANNING TO GET VOTING REQUIREMENTS!!!

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. You are not allowed to post about other potential suspects or bans. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Roaring Moon vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging Kris and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

 

[Finchinator]

There has been a lot of discussion about the metagame lately; many people have deemed the format to be less balanced than prior iterations and some have taken exception to certain presences in the metagame. I want to reserve a post to discuss the council's response to this as we do not take these concerns lightly whatsoever. Please note: This post is written from my perspective as tier leader specifically, but it represents sentiments of the collective council discussion.

---

We firmly understand your concerns and many of us inside the council agree with them, too. Survey results will come out later this week and it is no coincidence that more Pokemon than ever have achieved marks greater than 3 out of 5 from the qualified playerbase. This means that a lot more tiering action (likely in the form of suspects, but potentially other things depending on how support fluctuates) is coming in the near future.

The fact of the matter is that these choppy metagame cycles are not always going to be perfect. DLC1 was released in September and it is possible DLC2 could be released as early as November (or as late as February or March). It may not be possible for this metagame to reach an optimized point by November or December just given the number of roadblocks and the abbreviated period; it is more likely that the "best" SV OU is yet to be seen and will come as we have a longer period after DLC2 throughout the remainder of the generation.

What I can promise you as tier leader is that we are going to do everything in our power to continue to improve the current metagame. We will have surveys and suspects at a more aggressive pace than ever, we will have discussions in a more productive fashion than ever, and we will be receptive to your feedback more than ever, which I think is something we have shown throughout this generation and will continue to.

I do not care if this will lead to a reset of sorts with DLC2, making a lot of this a dead-end or moot in the long-term. I will exhaust my efforts and resources to make your experience playing the metagame better as that is my job; it is important that our playerbase understands our commitment to them!

With this in mind, the OU tiering council is more prepared than ever to address tiering concerns. Infastructure is now in place to have a more collaborative and swift tiering response than ever before.

What may this be? For starters, we have community outreach surveys as you likely know by now. These help guide our decision making process and let our informed players help dictate the metagame they are passionate about. In addition, the council is more transparent than ever between regular posts in the metagame discussion thread and occasional tiering radars to keep everyone who wishes to follow informed.

The process itself has been reformed, too. We have a more clear idea of what thresholds in what contexts can lead to suspects or quickbans, which we have applied and will continue to apply. In addition to this, our physical suspects have become more flexible than ever. The Ursaluna-Bloodmoon suspect was shorter than ever before and the same goes for this Roaring Moon suspect, which allows for more potential metagame progression and tiering action to take place in less time. This was adopted in response to outcries for quicker action while respecting the public's right to decide instead of employing overly aggressive quickbans; I believe this will be a successful middleground in some cases. This is not to say quickbans will be avoided so much as we are finding our footing as to when it is appropriate and when it is not.

I hope this helps alleviate some concerns and address any questions individuals may have about our metagame or tiering process. Please shoot me a message on these forums, Discord, or Twitter with any questions and I will try to get to you when I can. Thanks and have a nice day.

 

[Finchinator]

This thread is locked for 24 hours for everyone to gather their thoughts. Enjoy laddering!

 

[njnp]

UU to Ubers? Mans really made it. Thread is now unlocked for discussion, please keep things on topic and be respectful

 

[Stories]

Who would have thought that Mega Salamence with STAB Knock Off and a built-in Life Orb would be a bit overbearing? Even without Tera, Roaring Moon is a complete menace, and I think that's exactly what makes it so great is that it's a fantastic offensive threat that doesn't even rely on Tera. Despite this, Roaring Moon can still Tera Flying, which not only makes Acrobatics a nuke of an attack that owns common Knock Off absorbers like Amoonguss and Great Tusk, but the Flying typing inverting its Fighting weakness and granting an immunity to the best type in the tier (Ground) gives it an amazing matchup into a majority of the tier. Even sturdy checks like Physically Defensive Corviknight, Galarian Weezing, and Clefable, are put into range quite easily after a Protosynthesis Knock Off and are shut down quite well by Taunt, all while losing their super-effective attack against a Flying-type Roaring Moon. Even Gliscor's most common sets are completely walled by Taunt + Tera Flying.

Metagame trends that enable Roaring Moon to be excellent:

Before Shed Tail was banned, Roaring Moon was a common sight on suspect slates due to the ease of setup that a free Substitute enabled, however with the introduction of Alolan Ninetales, Roaring Moon finds another easy setup opportunity.

As mentioned earlier, Gliscor's most common set is completely walled by Roaring Moon with Taunt + Tera Flying. Gliscor has cemented itself as an easily top 3 Pokemon in the metagame, and definitely the best Ground-type. Having a positive matchup against Gliscor along with the other top tier Pokemon makes Roaring Moon a very splashable threat.

These assholes are simply not as good or common as they once were for a myriad of reasons, Besides this, Clodsire suffers the same fate as Gliscor in this matchup, and Skeledirge has to use it's Tera to stand a chance, while also struggling against Taunt variants. Dondozo does typically come out on top, but hates losing it's item as it often relies on Leftovers or Heavy-Duty Boots to stay healthy enough to check other threats while hazards are up. I'm assuming that with Ursaluna Blood Moon banned (a bit embarrassing it wasn't quickbanned but democracy or something yay!), the Unaware Pokemon will see more usage, but that's purely speculation.

Anyway I don't think Roaring Moon is a blatantly broken presence in the tier, but I do think the tier is a bit congested with threats and Roaring Moon is simply one of the best of those threats.

 

[zbr]

UU to Ubers? Mans really made it. Thread is now unlocked for discussion, please keep things on topic and be respectful

deoxys-d did it first!!!11

anyway to not detract off topic. moon isn't exactly incredibly overwhelming to the point where you need multiple checks / counters in order to cockblock nor is it extremely oppressive with its multitude of sets that creates an unhealthy presence, but i do think that we are currently in a "broken checks broken" metagame and roaring moon is truly on the top of that list.

knock off's sheer power and utility and the advent of webs / veil ho in the current metagame has created a very fertile environment for moon to abuse easy positionings due to it's ability to just come right in comfortably on moves like gholdengo's make it rain / shadow ball since the hp on moon is not entirely an issue because it can easily break apart defensive set ups once there is space for it to squeeze through.

do i think that warrants it's ban? not rlly. but i do think that it's an extremely top tier threat and im on the fence on whether it should go or not.

 

[1LDK]

I'll be honest, I don't think RM is broken, I have said this before and I think I should explain a bit, roaring moon loves the state of the meta, everything is either ogerpon ho or gliscor balance, roaring moon has a natural good matchup against both of this play styles thanks to being faster than valiant with booster speed, resistant to grassy glide thanks to dragon typing, who then tera fly to keep it, its common checks like tusk, zapdos and moltres are not that common anymore because these fold to gliscor balance

there's also other more uncommon checks like scarf ace, tera steel chesnaught, sash samurot-h, ogerpon cornerstone with no hazards involved, but these necessitate of items, support or tera to survive and check it

Most Ogerpon-HO just resort to gambit to tera fairy and click sucker punch 8 times and hope everything goes right in the end, while gliscor balance uses stuff like multiscale bulky dnite, ID zama, whirlwind ting lu and pray its booster goes away

A more decentralized meta where most play styles than these 2, could benefit in making roaring moon's checks appear, and that's why I personally believe the correct path should have been either ghol, oger or gliscor. I feel like moon just really likes this meta and that's why it feels like it's broken, but it really isn't

Anyway, here is a bnuuy, thank you for paying attention to my PowerPoint presentation, I stayed until late at the school library to make it

 

[awyp]

I'll be voting Ban


Roaring Moon has had the same issue that put Baxcalibur over the top, new tech / move added to just make it better then it already is. The only difference is Baxcalibur did a decent job to keep in check (Ice Shard) Roaring Moon since they usually terastallize into Flying. Roaring Moon is an Pokemon to take into account in team builder, if you don't take it into account your team easily gets shitted on (preparation is key). Remember Roaring Moon has always been a solid A mon throughout the release of S/V, it's been on the radar on different occasions. Other threats in the tier that eventually got banned is what kept in check, shoutout to Chien Pao and Baxcalibur (This explains the recent rise of Weavile usage, which will drop if Roaring Moon gets banned).


So what makes Roaring Moon broken?

105 / 101 (HP / SpD) bulk is nothing to mess around with, it allows it to run more of a bulky EV spread if needed.

119 Speed tier is top notch and puts you into S tier when you take in account Booster Energy (Speed), essentially nothing outspeeds you.

490 Attack off the whim, with the ability to further boost it x 1.5 + Knock Off in the back for any Unaware users switching in and Tera Flying Acrobatics for consistent damage is a bit much to deal with especially if you get a Dragon Dance off.

-------

So above is just talking about the more common Dragon Dance + Acro set, which everyone see's coming but you can't do much about it. Your best bet is probably ID Corviknight.

Choice Band Roaring Moon (Under Sun so it boosts speed) is also something not to play around with, I brought up Corviknight because it handles the Dragon Dance pretty well

220 Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 226-268 (56.6 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
220 Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 154-182 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (No Item)
So essentially you 2HKO on a switch of something that's considered a check, cool.

Fun Calc (Attack Boosting Choice Band Tera Dragon Outrage on Speed Boosting Tusk)

252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Dragon Roaring Moon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 424-500 (97.6 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
You can essentially just flatten anything that switches in under sun, which I think where this is not being talked enough about.

Choice Band (Attack Boosting Outrage Non-Tera on Dondozo)

252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 262-310 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So essentially the most reliable physical wall can't reliably switch in on it.


Pure power especially it being a Proto Booster mon, I think in conjunction with Knock Off is what puts over the edge. Still under utilized in this meta because I can easily see it being abused.

As I mentioned above it is one of the fastest ones in the tier undeniably when it gets +1 speed, so when you talk about priorities, Sucker Punch can't do much with the most popular mon in the tier (Kingambit), Choice Band Grassy Glide is also not making a dent.

There's just not enough reliable things to try to revenge kill it since not a lot of things are safe to switch in, if it's Acro + DD (Attack Boosting) you can switch into Corviknight but that's about it because Dondozo if it gets knocked off always gets 3HKO'd if Roaring Moon decides to Tera Flying (Acro), so you can't rest it off you essentially just lose the matchup. Majority of Dondozo's are not running Curse because you cannot be mono water running around with Ogerpon everywhere you just become food. So yeah, not as easy as a ban as Ursa was but it's close.

Fun Calc (Roaring Moon Outrage No Tera vs Physically Defensive Ting Lu)

252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 247-292 (48 - 56.8%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Side note: You can't compare Roaring Moon to Walking Wake since there's a lot of things in the tier that have Water Absorb so essentially it becomes a hindrance to running a Choice Item, when in comparison to Moon you're always knocking off something 99% of the time so it's never a lose situation which is one reason I don't want to hear a counter arguements about the calcs because the reality is it's BST breakdown is godly it's only weakness is Special Attack.

 

[AK]

Ill be voting ban on Roaring Moon, there just isn’t defensive counterplay aside from « flow of the game » which is valid, but surely not enough. To a lesser extent it reminds me of Baxcalibur pre-dlc, an absolute headache in the team builder and in game. It at worst forces a defensive tera everytime and you’re always overwhelmed because of it. On top of that I really don’t see any downside to the ban, mon doesn’t bring anything good to the tier.

 

[kos parasite]

I will be voting do not ban. After facing plenty of it and using it a lot on my suspect runs this gen, I don't think its overbearing. It is strong and matches up well with a lot of the tier as a couple eloquent posters before me pointed out. There is plenty of counterplay imo, plenty of mons who check it. If you know they have a moon on a certain build you can almost guarantee what its gonna be and you can plan around it by saving your tera or keeping a solid check healthy. Does it set up easily and come in easily on some mons? Yes. Is it completely unstoppable like a certain furry friend we just dealt with? I think not.

 

[Finchinator]

Roaring Moon has very few, if any, true counters defensively. Roaring Moon has very few reliable revenge killers. This stand-alone makes it highly suspect and I’d say its overall presence is broken right now. While it may be lil bro to Bax, it’s broken for some similar reasons in all honesty.

In the context of games, a timely opposing Tera or preserved priority can dispatch of it, but this involves applying pressure to an arguably unreasonable extent (and doesn’t always work if it’s Roost or paired with the right support, for example). It also oftentimes still gets a kill and Roaring Moon has pretty good special bulk to the point that it can easily get out of hand.

Within the builder, it constricts things even further as you need to keep it front of mind when factoring in your entire team’s pace and interactions rather than being able to counter it on some teams. Lazy building for it cannot even exist as there are no real slap-on counters and while we like to encourage proactive play and creative building, it’s still often a multi-Pokemon job to take it down with casualties involved.

some anti-ban arguments also don’t check out with me

I'll be honest, I don't think RM is broken, I have said this before and I think I should explain a bit, roaring moon loves the state of the meta, everything is either ogerpon ho or gliscor balance, roaring moon has a natural good matchup against both of this play styles thanks to being faster than valiant with booster speed, resistant to grassy glide thanks to dragon typing, who then tera fly to keep it, its common checks like tusk, zapdos and moltres are not that common anymore because these fold to gliscor balance

You don’t think Roaring Moon is broken because…it’s just specifically good in these metagame conditions…? Natural good matchups across the board is a testament to the Pokemon, not some coincidence.

There is plenty of counterplay imo, plenty of mons who check it.

You didn’t actually mention a single form of it throughout your post.

 

[reVeez]

EZ no ban. This is an obviously pushed persona-grudge suspect. Priorities are WHACK. Idk how you can say this is more constricting on the builder than a large number of other pokemon...


Roaring Moon wins games because everyone wants to use their copy-paste HOs where everything has paper defense and no priority. Like cmon bruv.

What happens every game is this thing trades tera for tera. I find this nowhere near as hard to kill/revenge as things like baxcalibur or the tier's own or at +1. There is no right to hardwall everything.

Here are a list of roaring moon stops and counterplay.
Sticky Web - this is half of ladder... sash is on all these teams
Thunder Wave
Red Card
Tera on any fat stuff
Extreme Speed
Static and Discharge


Unaware


Tera Fairy

OGER
+ Great into the offenses that are used a ton
Many of the sweepers on HOs
or anything with this priority.

I won't go into the dregs, but there are things in the depths you can use if you really want to smack it around....

Also..., but when he was needed most...

Don't give me that "it can run taunt and roost and iron head and u-turn all on the same set"

Props to that guy who inspired me to used Tera Bug + Jaw Lock, though. That was sick.

 

[Ehmcee]

Extreme Speed
Static and Discharge


Unaware


Tera Fairy

OGER
+ Great into the offenses that are used a ton
Many of the sweepers on HOs
or anything with this priority.

the two you mentionned only work 30% of the time, unreliable at best, twave is a different story though, but even then you're sacking zapdos for a para

: Brick Break Ohkos

: not a check? outspeed and ohkos at +1

prediction reliant, ohkos with acro with tera, ohkos with eq without

this doesn't beat tera flying

me when hazards exist

+ ??? easily ohkos rilla and sneasler has no solid way of ohkoing

literally what lol, focus sash isn't used on anything other than leads

....................................................................................................................

 

[VicBossMG]

I’m on the fence for ban since I play against it a lot I usually sack mon and have to force it to Tera flying, if I can bait it, then have gambit play the 50/50 mind games if I am able to chip it down first though since at full it can live a hit if not enough fallen allies. they force a defensive Tera like garg Tera fairy ID to avoid super effective EQ unless predicted and acro me, gterrain is hard to play around it due to if you grassy glide it comes in for free and gets a free Ddance or knock off and forces a sack. The CP is very little and even though we have other Issues we need to address, roaring moon can be outplayed with right prediction like gliscor Toxicing it and if they don’t Tera can EQ protect to wait it out, but if they predict your protect just Ddance and get 2 for 1 in some scenarios. I’ll play more ladder before I make my decision, but right now I’m closer to ban.

 

[Moyashi]

This is an obviously pushed persona-grudge suspect. Priorities are WHACK. Idk how you can say this is more constricting on the builder than a large number of other pokemon...

I don't know why you people insist on doing this s when it's been expressly explained why Kingambit isn't being revisited yet. Moon had the highest score on the survey, meaning even the overall community thinks it is the highest priority.

Roaring Moon wins games because everyone wants to use their copy-paste HOs where everything has paper defense and no priority. Like cmon bruv.

What happens every game is this thing trades tera for tera. I find this nowhere near as hard to kill/revenge as things like baxcalibur or the tier's own or at +1. There is no right to hardwall everything.

It's not that people want to build that way. It's just that it's one of most dominant and effective ways to build. Bulkier styles are very difficult to build consistently if it's not stall outright or super specific balance styles which Moon dominates anyways.

Moon also doesn't have to tera every game which is a common misconception. It's not an issue of not being able to hardwall. It's extremely difficult to check defensively period, and has very very limited responses that aren't gameflow dependant or super specific. Speaking of which

Here are a list of roaring moon stops and counterplay.
Sticky Web - this is half of ladder... sash is on all these teams
Thunder Wave
Red Card
Tera on any fat stuff
Extreme Speed
Static and Discharge


Unaware


Tera Fairy

OGER
+ Great into the offenses that are used a ton
Many of the sweepers on HOs
or anything with this priority.

Webs: teamstyle restricted and only one teamstyle at that. A HO style.
Thunder Wave: which mon can even hit it with twave before being slaughtered by it.
Red Card: super specific and one time use making it not reliable, and restrictive.
Tera on fat stuff: having to rely on tera on fat stuff reactively is a major sign of its negative impact. We went through this with early gen9 chien pao. We're not doing this again.
brick break variants
is literally outrun. Don't mention garbage scarf.
Unaware only fits in super specific fat and stall teams and gets blown by flying acrobatics.
not only much less common and like clefable, only fits on fat and stall, gets bodied by taunt versions.
takes prediction to even not die, doesn't ohko back and can thus even lose to roost variants that stall it and boost further.
loses to tera flying.
hazards when they eat into its feet
you complain everyone is using HO teams and then suggest one as counterplay. Maybe you can see the irony and why this mon is being suspected. Also boom dies and Sneasler can't even threaten it fast enough
only seen on leads. And hazards lol.
tera flying.

Don't give me that "it can run taunt and roost and iron head and u-turn all on the same set"

The point when mentioning set options isn't to say it can run every set at once, but that each set can be run viably and there isn't reasonable ways to account for it which leads to overly restricted building and gameplay.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

EZ no ban. This is an obviously pushed persona-grudge suspect. Priorities are WHACK. Idk how you can say this is more constricting on the builder than a large number of other pokemon...


Roaring Moon wins games because everyone wants to use their copy-paste HOs where everything has paper defense and no priority. Like cmon bruv.

What happens every game is this thing trades tera for tera. I find this nowhere near as hard to kill/revenge as things like baxcalibur or the tier's own or at +1. There is no right to hardwall everything.

Here are a list of roaring moon stops and counterplay.
Sticky Web - this is half of ladder... sash is on all these teams
Thunder Wave
Red Card
Tera on any fat stuff
Extreme Speed
Static and Discharge


Unaware


Tera Fairy

OGER
+ Great into the offenses that are used a ton
Many of the sweepers on HOs
or anything with this priority.

I won't go into the dregs, but there are things in the depths you can use if you really want to smack it around....

Also..., but when he was needed most...

Don't give me that "it can run taunt and roost and iron head and u-turn all on the same set"

Props to that guy who inspired me to used Tera Bug + Jaw Lock, though. That was sick.

Wait, so your argument is "I don't think it should be banned because I think something else should be banned instead," and then point to Kingambit, which is still in the tier because you people voted DNB Gambit using the very reasoning you're arguing for DNB Moon with?

Only Brainless HO teams (I find HO hard to play by the way) have issues with Moon? Ok, sure, how does stall beat it exactly then? Nothing on stall except for Gliscor and Clefable wants to take a knock off, Gliscor has no way of making progress vs Tera Flying except Toxic, which just enables more DDs, that can't be hazed since Pex can't switch in. As for Clef:

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 322-381 (81.7 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not exactly something you can keep tanking or even reliably Wish through.

If Dondozo wants to take a Knock it can beat Moon if it calls the right moves with sleep talk. But the fact that that's the only option is pretty ridiculous, you can't win without resting then calling Liquidation twice:

0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 121-144 (34.4 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 160-190 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 3HKO

Not going to address the fake checks mentioned in the post (mid game focus sash, lol)

 

[SciWiz373]

Sticky Web - this is half of ladder... sash is on all these teams

I am not a phenomenal player by all means, but I had a match where, despite me misplaying like every possible move I could make, I essentially stole a win with Band Knock RM, even when it was at -1 from webs. It outsped a Rillaboom, +2 Speed Empoleon, and Moltres.

In addition (and not related to the point above), even at a casual level I can see how capital S Stupid this thing is, I was laughing like a maniac a few nights ago when I booted up Showdown using SRN's Moon RMT, I kept having people forfeit on me because they misjudged how much Moon's Knock would do, it is incredibly spammable, and at least in my circumstances, braindead.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

I advocate ban because it would be very funny if every variant of Salmenace has been banned at one point or another.

 

[Sylveon used calm mind]

no ban

roaring moon isn't broken
it still has the same issues that it had before the dlc drop:

weak physical defense - picked off by priority and gets ohkod by a lot of physical mons
4 moves snydrome - has so many good coverage options that you can't fit everything
never runs boots aka weak to hazards, esp. tspike and webs

even with knock off its certainly not too powerful for the meta game, there are still checks to it and u can abuse its weaknesses

if roaring gets banned fat balance teams (& stall) get much better as a result



Imo the metagame isn't that unbalanced after the ursaluna ban
I could see manaphy getting suspect tested soon but I don't think oger-water will
Gliscor prob not gonna receive a suspect test as well

Also dont think that moon will be banned

 

[Drifting]

Gliscor should have been suspected over this Pokemon because of it's more directly degenerate effect on the metagame (infinite sustain spiker that beats most forms of hazard removal by itself and invites itself in for free) but Roaring Moon is also obviously broken af.

I went into more detail in a metagame discussion post earlier this week so I'll keep it brief here, but this mon 6-0s HO and 6-0s Stall if it's the decently common Taunt Roost set or some Jaw Lock shit (you wouldn't believe how often I've seen this happen even in 1900s ladder). Even Balance teams usually have to Tera something to deal with it, which is almost always telegraphed as fuck and a free win for the Moon user if they click EQ on your Tera Steel or whatever. It doesn't help that all its counters on balance also usually have to counter Sneasler and Kingambit as well, Pokemon very commonly paired with Moon. It's just too constraining both to account for in the builder and to meticulously position around in-game. I'm too busy to get reqs but I would very much recommend anyone reading this to vote ban so we can move on to pokemon like Gliscor/Waterpon/Gambit and get the meta in a better state asap. because right now it is just dull.

if roaring gets banned fat balance teams get much better as a result

Sounds good to me boss, though I fail to see how losing a Pokemon that 6-0s HO is a bad thing for HO teams.

 

[kd458]

Very interesting mon, I think I've started every recent suspect not totally decided but this is one I've been the most uncertain on. It didn't feel broken at all while getting reqs, I got far more sweeps with Manaphy, Zamazenta, Sneasler and even Hatterene (though I wasn't using Veil) and in a bunch of games Moon only came out to force out/revenge kill a threat, get off some chip, knock off an item or two and die. However, playing against it, if it ever gets a single turn to Dragon Dance this feels like the strongest, most broken unwallable threat of all time, with no consistent defensive answer outside of Tera-ing, hoping they don't predict correctly and still failing to kill it in a single hit. This is easier than ever with Ninetales-A in the tier to give it those free turns; we saw this before with Cyclizar and Orthworm, as evidenced by Moon's usage dropping off a cliff after the Shed Tail ban, and with Knock Off it's more threatening than its ever been.

For a quick analysis of this mon: 105/71/101 is very good special bulk for such a strong attacker, while the physical bulk is still respectable (almost identical to Valiant's), and very little of its 580 BST is wasted in its unused Sp.Atk stat. 119 speed is blisteringly fast, outpacing key threats like Valiant, Moth and Ogerpon, and Booster Energy can allow it to outrun the first two even if they have Speed booster themselves, or give it a free Life Orb boost on top of its almost unmatched 139 base attack. Alternative options exist in Choice Band on sun and the rare Choice Scarf, but these don't feel nearly as broken as Booster DD to me at least. A Dragon/Dark typing resists the most relevant forms of priority in the tier (sorry Sciz/Breloom/Specs Vac Wave Val), and Tera Flying Acrobatics helps with your inability to hit Fairies while EQ and Brick Break (my personal choice) can deal with Gambit. Sounds fantastic on paper, and given the right support, in practice this mon is a complete monster and can game end with a single DD.

However, Roaring Moon has some crucial flaws which make this a lot less one sided than how I've seen described it so far. First of all, the 4MSS of this mon is horrible, with Taunt variants able to break through defensive teams/Gliscor but leaving you completely walled by Kingambit, and Roost coming at even greater expense as you either drop Taunt, DD or run mono attack which is terrible outside of niche Jaw Lock stallbreaking sets. Acro is an almost necessary coverage option on Booster which leaves this mon very Tera-hungry, many key targets able to sponge a non-STAB Acrobatics but getting destroyed after that 50% boost (particularly on Speed booster sets, like Enam has an 87.5% chance to live +1 non-Tera Acro), but then Gambit will revenge you with sucker and the sweep's over. There is no single defensive answer that will beat every variant of Moon, but there is no Moon set that will beat every defensive answer, feeling somewhat reminiscent of Volcarona in that regard (granted Volc is now dead despite that). This is a broken checks broken meta, and I'm not sure if Moon is the most broken thing in it.

I'll be keeping an eye on the meta until the end of this suspect, and will be paying attention to how Moon performs in tournament and on the ladder, I'm aware I've not been using it in its most broken form on Veil and I've been running mons with good MUs into it (Zama and Sneasler pre-Tera, Grassy Seed Hatterene) but it doesn't feel as egregiously strong to me as it's made out to be. Even so, it clearly lacks reliable defensive counterplay and is a heavy contributor to the HO-stall metagame imbalance we are seeing right now, so the tier may be healthier without it. Slight lean towards Ban but I'm definitely on the fence.

 

[njnp]

Going to give short and brief thoughts as this isn't very complex to me.

The tier in my opinion will not get better with the removal of Roaring Moon. I have not found it to be too much for the tier or the main problem with the tier. The main problem with the tier currently is Hazard Control. Hopefully, once this is done we can turn our attention to the leader in this issue Gliscor, and the thing that has been a pillar in this problem Gholdengo. We need to focus more attention on the defensive woes of this tier rather then the offensive threats. If I'm able to find time to get reqs I will vote no ban.

 

[Professor Suicune]

This is the first OU suspect in a long time that I don't feel too strongly about one way or another. Like, Chien-pao was obviously uber broken and was banned accordingly, Walking Wake (imo) was not broken and despite the initial hype I think the community eventually agreed, Kingambit and Zamazenta WERE broken and SHOULD have been banned (yeah I'm still mad sorry), and BM Ursa was the most lopsided vote in years.

But Roaring Moon...?

Idk. To me, it's just another stupid offensive tera sweeper, in a tier with at least a dozen of those already. Does it really contribute anything meaningful or healthy to the tier? In my opinion, not really, other than as a notable check to booster valiant with its own speed booster. But does it actually break the tier? Again, in my opinion, not really.

Its main problem is that it only gets 1 booster energy at a time, and each has significant flaws. Attack booster is great vs stall/fat/balance, but it's still slower than booster valiant, zamazenta, dragapult, sneasler, meowscarada, ribombee, all of which can OHKO it, as well as slower vs most random scarfers and weather speed boosters. The point is, a significant chunk of viable mons can easily revenge kill it, and HO is an extremely common archetype right now. It's also not super easy to get a DD up; vs balance yeah maybe but balance doesn't really exist right now, and vs HO not many people are gonna switch to give you that free turn.

Speed booster, on the other hand, is not as immediately threatening to non-HO structures, and even vs HO, its not usually going to sweep on its own with unboosted knock offs and acrobatics. Still, I actually do think this is the superior set given how common HO is. I've been running speed booster tera flying - knock off, acrobatics, taunt, roost (no ddance), and it functions really well vs both HO as a revenge killer, and vs stall as a stallbreaker (notably 1v1-ing gliscor when it turns flying). It's definitely a great set, but idk if it's "broken".

Overall I think roaring moon is pretty much on par with a bunch of other mons right now - iron valiant, dragonite, sneasler, ogerpon water, manaphy, zamazenta, gliscor, to name a few - and it's definitely less broken than gholdengo and kingambit. So if this is just the first mon on the bucket list to remove from OU to create a healthier metagame, I don't have a problem with that. Theoretically a lot of these guys should go to make the meta healthier. But I don't think I'll be getting reqs. Curious to see what happens tho.

 

[Avira]

The tier being littered with Spikes was a problem even before Gliscor, so I don't believe banning Gliscor solves the problem. Gholdengo, the one mon making it hard to remove hazards, has been present since the beginning of the meta, and it is the main reason why hazard control is so shitty because of Good As Gold's interaction with Defog. Easy hazards makes most offensive Pokemon more powerful after all. Gholdengo should be a priority to ban after the Roaring Moon suspect, not after Indigo Disk drops, as it is a large part of why OU is in such a poor state of balance. Players should actually have to work to get multiple layers down rather than it being the easiest thing ever like it is now.

 

[Finchinator]

I agree Gliscor needs a suspect in the future and I hope the support is there next time; it is already quite close, so I am optimistic. It is important that we focus on defensive and utility oriented Pokemon when they are problematic! I also think Gholdengo deserves discussion (alongside Kingambit, Manaphy, and Wellspring).

I think this all can be true in the same universe where Roaring Moon is broken though, and that is very much the reality. This metagame has numerous issues after all. Nobody has actually listed a counter to Roaring Moon and that is not a coincidence. Let's take an example from a post in this thread.

The tier in my opinion will not get better with the removal of Roaring Moon.

This is not and never has been the point of a suspect. The suspect is meant to determine if the subject is broken or not, not if the metagame is better with or without a Pokemon.

A lot of the time multiple bans will be needed, especially if one ban sets off a chain reaction, which cause immediate issues until they are fixed later.

Additionally, statements like "the tier in my opinion will not get better with the removal of Roaring Moon" is pure theorymon. I am hoping you know that this is not how we ever should be tiering.

The main problem with the tier currently is Hazard Control. Hopefully, once this is done we can turn our attention to the leader in this issue Gliscor, and the thing that has been a pillar in this problem Gholdengo.

The thing is that I agree 100% with this and this should be the focus of the playerbase (and given trends in survey results, I am hoping we will be there next time).