Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Munch

[CptMoth]

I will be voting no ban

The reasoning for this is because chien pao is currently keeping some of the most annoying and top tier mons in check, EX: Garganacl, Clodsire, Gholdengo, Dondozo, the Psuedo legend dragon trio (Dragonite, Garchomp, Dragapult), and to an extent Great Tusks. The main issue if Chien-Pao is banned is that mons like Garganacal and Gholdengo will have 1 less GOOD check to them and garganacl will most likely be subject tested next and banned, the other issue is that its a waste of time because Pokemon home is right around the corner and Chien-Pao will just be unbanned and retested and show as not ban worthy anymore.

I don't want to see a meta where Garganacl is the top dog of OU a stall based mon being the best option to use on teams alongside other stall mons or offensive mons that can't touch those stall/defensive mons.

Good day to all of you

 

[Vrin]

I will be voting no ban

The reasoning for this is because chien pao is currently keeping some of the most annoying and top tier mons in check, EX: Garganacl, Clodsire, Gholdengo, Dondozo, the Psuedo legend dragon trio (Dragonite, Garchomp, Dragapult), and to an extent Great Tusks. The main issue if Chien-Pao is banned is that mons like Garganacal and Gholdengo will have 1 less GOOD check to them and garganacl will most likely be subject tested next and banned, the other issue is that its a waste of time because Pokemon home is right around the corner and Chien-Pao will just be unbanned and retested and show as not ban worthy anymore.

I don't want to see a meta where Garganacl is the top dog of OU a stall based mon being the best option to use on teams alongside other stall mons or offensive mons that can't touch those stall/defensive mons.

Good day to all of you

With all due respect, if you're relying on Chien-Pao to "keep [Garganacl and Dondozo] in check", I do not think you have a great shot at making voting reqs.

Edit @ below: Then congrats; I recommend you post them before your GXE decays! Surely you wouldn't lie about such a thing, right?

 

[CptMoth]

im already there lmao

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Garganacl, Clodsire, Gholdengo, Dondozo

So stall bad offense good? This is an incredibly shitty argument. Please learn to play around these walls and broken beats broken is bad

the Psuedo legend dragon trio (Dragonite, Garchomp, Dragapult)

Scarf Valiant: Am I a joke to you?

I don't want to see a meta where Garganacl is the top dog of OU a stall based mon being the best option to use on teams alongside other stall mons or offensive mons that can't touch those stall/defensive mons.

Add Stallbreakers, my dude. Something like NP taunt hydreigon, who could spam Draco Meteor to beat clod.

nobody should like stall

oh no I like stall

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

For the future, inquires like this should go here as to not clog up this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers-thread.3710772/

Regardless, Crunch provides a lot of merit and fitting a second move that is close to identical is a hard sell, so it’s unlikely, especially considering Skeledirge would likely just Wisp if Tera is not used yet since Tera Dark can KO with minimal chip and allows it to live Torch Song.

I think he meant replacing crunch with throat chop

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Guys please read the full post it's not just taking it's hits it hitting harder priority is hands down the best counter for this thing which shall I remind you is everywhere in this meta game from bullet Scizor to mach punch belroom not to mention screens is also everywhere limiting it even further. Not to mention stealth rock like not just violent can beat this thing.

Anyone with half a brain would switch out if they suspect you have super effective priority (oh, and by the way, Chien-Pao has priority itself. Two flavors of it, in fact). If Stealth Rock becomes prevalent, it'd start running Heavy-Duty Boots to ignore it. Then what? Oh, and terastallization is a thing to get around these.

Not just that but priority is everywhere and so is stealth rocks so it's definitely okay.

See above. Also, you can't be suggesting forcing Chien-Pao out until Stealth Rock kills it. I shouldn't have to point out the obvious flaw with that.

I will be voting no ban

The reasoning for this is because chien pao is currently keeping some of the most annoying and top tier mons in check, EX: Garganacl, Clodsire, Gholdengo, Dondozo, the Psuedo legend dragon trio (Dragonite, Garchomp, Dragapult), and to an extent Great Tusks. The main issue if Chien-Pao is banned is that mons like Garganacal and Gholdengo will have 1 less GOOD check to them and garganacl will most likely be subject tested next and banned, the other issue is that its a waste of time because Pokemon home is right around the corner and Chien-Pao will just be unbanned and retested and show as not ban worthy anymore.

I don't want to see a meta where Garganacl is the top dog of OU a stall based mon being the best option to use on teams alongside other stall mons or offensive mons that can't touch those stall/defensive mons.

Good day to all of you

If Gholdengo, etc. are busted, they will be summarily suspected. Keeping an obviously broken mon in the tier just because some other mons MIGHT be broken if it's gone is a big no-no. Also, you don't know that Chien-Pao will magically be okay for OU when HOME releases. None of us do. To be honest, though, I wouldn't be holding my breath on that. . .

 

[LoseToRU?]

20-0 so far on req account, wish me luck lol

Obviously voting ban although I don't want to.

I will really miss Pao as a breaker

We have some Spa breakers, but as far as physical we're lacking, as in a Phys attacker than can 1v1 Don.
I use that as a benchmark for a good breaker.
Ig it's time for Band Bax lol...

Terra Dark pushes Pao out of OU

We had a meta where if a dark/ice type got a SD up, or was banded beat up, it was very hard to deal with.
And we made it work.
Because the mon had a shitty defensive typing and could be RK easily if they were locked in or you could eat an ice shard.

Without Terra, Pao would be manageable, albeit barely manageable, but so was Weav in 8.
Weav had fighting coverage, as well as insane Knock and Axel.
A lot of people who voted no ban on the Mel suspect last gen used checking Weav as an example to keep it..

This is all you need to know:

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 178-210 (35.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 238-280 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO

It's that simple.

Your beloved gimmick is pushing mons out of the tier.

We lose a strong breaker with clear downsides because it can Terra past it's checks.

Pao would be a nice fit for an A+ or S mon, which is nice, but we can't keep it.

Hope y'all get used to losing mons.

Next is Garg, who would be fine w/o Terra.

and so on, and so forth; all the way until post-Home, where we will lose a chunk of mons, undoubtedly.

I'm getting reqs mostly for fun, as this is just a formality suspect.

But I couldn't pass up a chance to remind y'all this is literally what you wanted: less Pokemon when you're playing Pokemon..

 

[viivian]

i'm completely unaware of my skill level so whether or not i am capable of getting requisites is something i am not able to confidently say. something i can confidently say is that i will be voting ban on chien-pao, should i be able to get reqs.

the way that chien-pao easily blows past defensive and offensive checks alike is absurdly unhealthy and frankly obscene. any pokemon you think would be a safe switch-in could very well get 2HKO'd by tera dark crunch from choice band sets if you're not at full health. and with chien-pao commonly being paired with hazard support from gholdengo and ting-lu, it's highly likely that your switch-in won't be at full health when switching in. so if you find yourself getting forced out by chien-pao then it's highly likely that whatever you send out is going to either outright die or get set up on, die, and then have the rest of your team die. its only notable downsides are frailty and a weakness to hazards (if it's running choice band). if it chooses to pair with great tusk and/or corviknight (which it does very frequently), then both make this a non-issue by virtue of their efficiency as sources of hazard control and their defensive utility giving chien-pao a strong defensive teammate to fall back on, should it ever feel the need to switch out. so it's very strong and very easy to support but surely you can at least out-offense it, right? wrong.

in addition to its almost unprecedented power, chien-pao has an abormally high speed stat to go along with it. a speed stat of 135 on a pokemon already very hard to stop is insane since it beats out nearly anything that could at least feasibly revenge kill it. and as if it wasn't hard enough to hit this thing first, it also has access to two strong priority moves in sucker punch and ice shard, which makes dragapult a non-factor in answering it and most scarfers either have to gamble on what priority move it has or burn tera just to beat it regardless, which makes for a very stressful interaction for the revenge killer. so the fact that chien-pao has a failsafe for every faster, offensive answer to it in addition to how powerful it is and how easy it is to facilitate is something i find to be very unhealthy for this meta.

 

[CrypticSquatch]

While I agree with the ban, y'all forgot a counter. Tera Fairy Unaware skeledirge

 

[Rootb]

While I agree with the ban, y'all forgot a counter. Tera Fairy Unaware skeledirge

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 207-244 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pretty much exactly the same as Garganacl, really. Just another strong indicator the attacking mon is the problem.

 

[TheCounterTeamer]

Okay, it’s been a day or two since the suspect began, may as well sum up my thoughts.

Pao has been suspect since day one, with its insane speed tier, dual priority, decent bulk, access to Sacred Sword and more pushing it further than Weavile ever dared go. Tera acts as a somewhat double-edged sword for it, as while it can power up it’s Sacred Sword, go Ghost or Poison to eat up Fighting moves, or most notably go Tera Dark to turn its Crunch into a nuclear bomb, but it also hates things like Fairy or Flying Kingambit, having to guess around Garganacl and Dirge, et cetera.

Pao’s biggest factors that push it (at least for me personally) would be it’s high speed and access to Sacred Sword. While the latter may seem like it matters less, a strong and consistent Fighting STAB allows it to mow down resists that would otherwise be solid checks such as Kingambit. The insane 135 speed allows it to chew through offense like nothing else, given that the only non-scarfer that naturally outspeeds it would be Dragapult, who is terrified of Sucker Punch.

In deciding to ban a pokemon, move, ability, mechanic, et cetera, the questions that need to be asked are as follows:
1: Does this Pokemon add options to teambuilding or does it remove them?
2: Is the counterplay common enough to justify not banning it?
3: Is it competitive?

For both sides, think about these questions before you vote.

That being said, I personally think Ban is the right path here. Later, y’all!

 

[LoseToRU?]

In deciding to ban a pokemon, move, ability, mechanic, et cetera, the questions that need to be asked are as follows:
1: Does this Pokemon add options to teambuilding or does it remove them?
2: Is the counterplay common enough to justify not banning it?
3: Is it competitive?

Very well-put.

Those are very succinct and concise parameters for a ban and I agree 100%.

We'll cross this bridge when we come to it, but Garg and Espa seem to qualify for a ban with those parameters in mind, in my humble opinion.

I will be referring to those 3 points when it comes to future suspects, as the aforementioned mons clearly fail on all 3 of those points.

The main takeaway as of now though is, good post dude lol

 

[GarchompFan1512]

I really want this banned. It’s super annoying to battle and I don’t like using it. I don’t play OU too much but when I do I hate it because of Chien-Pao

 

[Joseph Gomes]

While I agree with the ban, y'all forgot a counter. Tera Fairy Unaware skeledirge

Anything that can handle Tera dark, gets destroyed by Ice type moves. Pao doesn't need Tera Ice to murder entire tier.

In 1v1, Pao would just flinch every tera fairy mon do death with Icicle Crash. Neither Garg or Dirge can afford Tera blast just for Pao

 

[KeldeoCrowned]

I'll be voting BAN
Chien Pao is the most threatning mon in OU, he is the second fastest pokémon of the tier, second only to dragapult in speed (that dies to a +1 (CB) Ice Shard

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 314-372 (99 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (314, 318, 320, 326, 330, 332, 336, 342, 344, 348, 350, 356, 360, 362, 366, 372)

So, it's very hard to revenge kill it without a scarf or a super effective priority mon (As Pawmot, Slither Wing or Breloom [If chien pao is not locked in Ice Shard] Most of people say that his best counter is Dondozo, but

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 214-254 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO (After Rocks or 1 Layer of spikes)
People talk about Tauros-Water and Tauros-Blaze, yes, they're pretty good counters, but they lack recovery, depending of leftovers to keep health in long matches, when they're not holding lefties, they hold HdB to switch in with safety in Hazard Stack teams, however, they lose their recovery,
the 2 hardest counters of Chien Pao aren't even OU
There are some calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 226-268 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 176-208 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 200 HP / 180+ Def Quaquaval: 164-194 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Guaranteed with 1 layer of spikes)
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 300-354 (114.9 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (300, 302, 306, 308, 314, 318, 320, 324, 326, 330, 336, 338, 342, 344, 348, 354)
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 332-392 (113.3 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 330-390 (94 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Let's talk about HdB, HdB Pao is pretty versatile and suffer of Magearna Syndrome (Depending of his set, it breaks your entire team)
there are so many variations as Standard AoA Pao (Smogon set) Tera Electric Pao (SD Ice Spinner Sucker Punch TeraBlast) (Bolt Beam is one of greatest Coverages of all time, it 2hkoes Dondozo after rocks, OHKOes Pex and Corv with +2 Tera Blast, it can be used defensively to survive some hits and Dance or kill some pokémon, as Iron Head Kingambit, Choice Locked Gholdengo, and Bpunch Scizor, Tera Ghost Pao (Same set as AoA, but with tera Ghost) Tera Ghost makes it harder to revenge kill, cuz it gets immunity to Extreme Speed, Mach Punch, and resistance to First Impression
Tera Ghost Pao can dance in front of things as BPress Corviknight and can surprise Choice Locked Iron Valiant and Breloom, Tera Ground Pao can break some checks as Tauros-Paldea-Fire, Garganacl, Kingambit and Toxapex after a Swords Dance

There are more sets of HdB and SD Pao, but what I'm trying to say is, his speed and priorities makes him a killing machine, very hard to revenge kill due his high speed, priorities and insane dmg because of Sword Of Ruin, being a high threat in most of matches, CB Pao is bizarrely strong, almost every game when it gets momentum, Chien-Pao just forces the opponnent to run a 50/50 between switch to a Dark resistance as Great Tusk or switch into a Ice resistance, as Rotom-Wash and Toxapex.
Chien Pao is pretty strong to OverUsed, this is why i'll be voting BAN (Sorry for my bad english, I'm learning it)

 

[Alternator]

Devil's Advocate time.

Chien-Pao has no hard counters, it's true - potential counters either lack recovery, like Paldean Tauros forms, or they are only applicable on very specific teams, like Avalugg in snow. Between Icicle Crash's flinch chance and Crunch's defense drops, Chien-Pao cannot be walled by passive mons, though fortunately it's weak to Body Press and hates being burned, so that isn't too limiting.

But there are tons of checks that can switch in and force the murder weasel out once, ranging from tanks like PhysDef Dondozo to offensive threats like Great Tusk, and Chien-Pao is weak to stealth rock. Entry hazard damage combined with 80/80/65 defenses means that Chien-Pao's longevity isn't great; coming in on Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes, terastalizing to Dark, being forced out, and coming back in again leaves it at 37.5% health. With his low defenses, that means that coming in on even weak neutral hits poses a threat - a Giga-Drain from Amoongus has a 25% chance to kill, Clodsire's Earthquake a 43.8% chance. It's even worse with more layers of Spikes or if he doesn't immediately burn the team's terastalize to shed the rock weakness.

Of course, HDB sets exist and can avoid this counterplay, but then defensive teams can use Unaware mons and offensive teams can bring in priority/a scarf mon on the setup turn (or survive the attack from an all-out attacker set), and without either a Life Orb or Choice Band, Chien-Pao has a lot more defensive answers. It also learns Recover, but that's rarely seen and more of a theorymon problem.

In most metagames, "severely weak to hazards" would be little more than a footnote, but this is the most hazard-infested OU has been since the Defog buff - hazard stack is popular and applying them is not limiting in the builder. That Stealth Rock weakness is important.

 

[Moyashi]

But there are tons of checks that can switch in and force the murder weasel out once, ranging from tanks like PhysDef Dondozo to offensive threats like Great Tusk

Phys def Dondozo is 2HKOd by tera dark crunch on band sets. But past that, what are these tons of checks that can switch in and force it out? It 2HKOs bulky walls with band sets, and if those can't take two hits imagine what can't one hit. Tusk also only works if coming on on crunch, which relies on it being choiced locked prior to reliable switch in, or burning tera reactively with tusk in front of Pao. Which is a problem that emphasizes the issue with the Mon.

As far as hazards go, the teams that Pao is best on have no real significant issue dealing with them so it can fire off its attacks. If they were effective as you suggest, then we probably wouldn't be here. But the reality is, in spite of the hazards, Pao is extremely dominant and restricting.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Devil's Advocate time.

Chien-Pao has no hard counters, it's true - potential counters either lack recovery, like Paldean Tauros forms, or they are only applicable on very specific teams, like Avalugg in snow. Between Icicle Crash's flinch chance and Crunch's defense drops, Chien-Pao cannot be walled by passive mons, though fortunately it's weak to Body Press and hates being burned, so that isn't too limiting.

But there are tons of checks that can switch in and force the murder weasel out once, ranging from tanks like PhysDef Dondozo to offensive threats like Great Tusk, and Chien-Pao is weak to stealth rock. Entry hazard damage combined with 80/80/65 defenses means that Chien-Pao's longevity isn't great; coming in on Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes, terastalizing to Dark, being forced out, and coming back in again leaves it at 37.5% health. With his low defenses, that means that coming in on even weak neutral hits poses a threat - a Giga-Drain from Amoongus has a 25% chance to kill, Clodsire's Earthquake a 43.8% chance. It's even worse with more layers of Spikes or if he doesn't immediately burn the team's terastalize to shed the rock weakness.

Of course, HDB sets exist and can avoid this counterplay, but then defensive teams can use Unaware mons and offensive teams can bring in priority/a scarf mon on the setup turn (or survive the attack from an all-out attacker set), and without either a Life Orb or Choice Band, Chien-Pao has a lot more defensive answers. It also learns Recover, but that's rarely seen and more of a theorymon problem.

In most metagames, "severely weak to hazards" would be little more than a footnote, but this is the most hazard-infested OU has been since the Defog buff - hazard stack is popular and applying them is not limiting in the builder. That Stealth Rock weakness is important.

If you rely on revenge killing to force Pao out and hazards, let’s say you have SR and triple spikes. The Pao user will kill a mon every time it comes in, and it will die to 3 rounds of hazard damage. That’s half your team gone.

Furthermore, Great Tusk has an unblockable spin due to knock off, and can easily rid the Pao user’s team of hazards. Then it can do stuff like SURVIVING A DONDOZO BODY PRESS AFTER IT TERAS AND PROCEED TO KO IT. Nice check.

Stop listing ”answers” when they cannot counter it. Just surrender and say that the paldean Tauroses are the only reliable answer.

Dondozo would be shredded by crunch, even if it teras into fairy the second turn if there are hazards up. I know that HDB exists but certain anti ban people here would just say ”use covert cloak, it also block crunch debuff” so that’s a valid point.

 

[Hykalia]

I'm gonna spare ya'll the massive list of reasons I think this little crap should get the ban hammer as its already been explained by the above users VERY effectively, so ya... BAN. THIS. MONSTER.

 

[ausma]

just got reqs after the school week, so i'm now ready to give my Thoughts on the silly little weasel guy as a council member

there's honestly not a ton to be said about chien-pao mechanically because chien-pao is as straight forward and as ideal a package you can get out of an offensive pokemon. its speed tier is only trumped by a pokemon that it melts with priority (dragapult), and you do not need me to reiterate how blatantly stupid tera dark banded crunch is. as it turns out, when you have a pokemon with near unparalleled breaking and revenge killing ability that also happens to have great coverage and a great stab combination, you will get something pretty damn broken. although it was not exactly qb material due to its dual stabs having more accessible and flexible responses, that does not discredit the fact that it is a stupid pokemon.

if i'm honest, i feel chien-pao's best set isn't even band: it's aoa. whether you pack black glasses, hdb, or life orb, the sheer strength, speed tier, and sacred sword to round off its coverage basically means that it'll wind up taking one every time regardless with the one-two punch of its stabs/coverage, all while mitigating a pretty major form of counterplay in the form of taking advantage of a choice lock. not to discredit band at all ofc, band is a lot more effective at throttling fat and crunch is absurdly spammable so it really kind of depends on if you prefer brute force to break bulkier garg cores for example or if you prefer to shred balances/offenses more autonomously. aoa is generally more game-to-game value imo in a metagame defined so heavily by great tusk + dengo structures, but there's a lot of autonomy in how you use chien-pao that only further contributes to why it's broken and why it exhibits a generally more restraining effect on game states.

tl;dr too naturally strong too naturally fast too flexible. ban this bitch

 

[Pinlup is the best]

edit: deleting first portion of this post in retro since it's just my bias and not fact
__

counter-play for chien-pao absolutely exists:

x

counter-play

1. garganacl
- fairy garganacl fucks up chien-pao. salt cure is broken. it needs to icicle flinch hax to beat you
2. tauros-aqua and tauros-fiyah
- hard counters
3. bunker pex
- if they run lock into crunch you can poison it. if they tera-dark crunch you can tera-fairy then it'll never be able to beat you. it needs icicle crash flinches but run covert cloak. pro-garg players are already spamming it for garg
5. using tera-reactively with something like water tusk or fairy gambit to flip the script
6. entry hazards can limit this set. "chi-yu was weak to hazards too got banned" ye but chi-yu has 135 special attack and 130bp stab. pao has 80bp stabs and not even close to as strong.
7. this 'mon is locking into either dark or ice. stuff like tusk can come in comfortably on crunch. rotom-w on icicle crash. kingambit can come in once on both stabs


"but ayo sacred sword kills gambit"
ye if they click it. anti-pao players act like banded pao is getting every prediction turn right

x

counter-play

everything under cb counter-play bar point #6

1. volcarona
- needs to attack you twice to kill and can burn
2. corv
- you can run cloak to avoid flinch. pro-garg players are already using it for garg. it's just an item bro !
3. dondozo
4. iron hands
5. quaquaval
6. azumarill
7. rotom-w can come in once or twice
8. tera-fairy dirge

boots pao hits like a wet fucking bag too. i've used a non-tera'd tusk to check boots pao before. icicle crash does like 45% lul

this is all defensive counter-play btw. this pokemon has plenty of offensive counter-play from scarf / booster iron valiant to wisp pult to mach punch users like pawmot and loom (needs to be BANDED ice shard for the latter) to slither wing to scizor. if some of these are too niche for ur tastes u can usually get some chip & rk it with stuff like espeed tera-normal nite and kingambit

pao can beat everything i mentioned above with good plays. yes that's what you call a good pokemon. to prove my points with experience i got reqs 29-1 with a team that didn't use pao at all: https://pokepast.es/7956642a34569b6f my fucking pao counter was rotom-w and pawmot LOL i was perfectly fine when it came to out-manuevering it in practice. pao is just an amazing 'mon. amazing =/= broken

SV gave us hella broken fat shit like garg (this broken counters pao) and dondozo. despite the nerfs u kids r still running pex smh. "if i have to run bunker on pex that's not healthy" how much of a handicap do u fat spammers need

AYO LET'S EXTINGUISH EVERY BREAKER FROM THE TIER SS-LITE BABY

to finish this post off let me say i will happily vote ban on chien-pao if garganacl gets banned
i just find it ridiculous how pro-garg players can say running that shit ass covert cloak item and putting substitute on random shit like skeledirge and rotom-w is healthy / "meta adapting bro" but having to burn tera on already good 'mons like dondozo and pex to beat pao is unhealthy? fuck off

"33% spl win-rate" no shit ur not losing to garg when ur team has some random substitute user + cloak dengo. ratchet ass team structure

ban garg first. if the community does that i will vote ban on pao

UNTIL THEN I ADVISE MY BROTHAS TO VOTE DO NOT BAN ON PAO

edit: deleting first portion of this post in retro since it's just my bias and not fact
__

counter-play for chien-pao absolutely exists:

x

counter-play

1. garganacl
- fairy garganacl fucks up chien-pao. salt cure is broken. it needs to icicle flinch hax to beat you
2. tauros-aqua and tauros-fiyah
- hard counters
3. bunker pex
- if they run lock into crunch you can poison it. if they tera-dark crunch you can tera-fairy then it'll never be able to beat you. it needs icicle crash flinches but run covert cloak. pro-garg players are already spamming it for garg
5. using tera-reactively with something like water tusk or fairy gambit to flip the script
6. entry hazards can limit this set. "chi-yu was weak to hazards too got banned" ye but chi-yu has 135 special attack and 130bp stab. pao has 80bp stabs and not even close to as strong.
7. this 'mon is locking into either dark or ice. stuff like tusk can come in comfortably on crunch. rotom-w on icicle crash. kingambit can come in once on both stabs


"but ayo sacred sword kills gambit"
ye if they click it. anti-pao players act like banded pao is getting every prediction turn right

x

counter-play

everything under cb counter-play bar point #6

1. volcarona
- needs to attack you twice to kill and can burn
2. corv
- you can run cloak to avoid flinch. pro-garg players are already using it for garg. it's just an item bro !
3. dondozo
4. iron hands
5. quaquaval
6. azumarill
7. rotom-w can come in once or twice
8. tera-fairy dirge

boots pao hits like a wet fucking bag too. i've used a non-tera'd tusk to check boots pao before. icicle crash does like 45% lul

this is all defensive counter-play btw. this pokemon has plenty of offensive counter-play from scarf / booster iron valiant to wisp pult to mach punch users like pawmot and loom (needs to be BANDED ice shard for the latter) to slither wing to scizor. if some of these are too niche for ur tastes u can usually get some chip & rk it with stuff like espeed tera-normal nite and kingambit

pao can beat everything i mentioned above with good plays. yes that's what you call a good pokemon. to prove my points with experience i got reqs 29-1 with a team that didn't use pao at all: https://pokepast.es/7956642a34569b6f my fucking pao counter was rotom-w and pawmot LOL i was perfectly fine when it came to out-manuevering it in practice. pao is just an amazing 'mon. amazing =/= broken

SV gave us hella broken fat shit like garg (this broken counters pao) and dondozo. despite the nerfs u kids r still running pex smh. "if i have to run bunker on pex that's not healthy" how much of a handicap do u fat spammers need

AYO LET'S EXTINGUISH EVERY BREAKER FROM THE TIER SS-LITE BABY

to finish this post off let me say i will happily vote ban on chien-pao if garganacl gets banned
i just find it ridiculous how pro-garg players can say running that shit ass covert cloak item and putting substitute on random shit like skeledirge and rotom-w is healthy / "meta adapting bro" but having to burn tera on already good 'mons like dondozo and pex to beat pao is unhealthy? fuck off

"33% spl win-rate" no shit ur not losing to garg when ur team has some random substitute user + cloak dengo. ratchet ass team structure

ban garg first. if the community does that i will vote ban on pao

UNTIL THEN I ADVISE MY BROTHAS TO VOTE DO NOT BAN ON PAO

But pex is still good with scald who needs it when you have recover,haze and toxic. But I see what you mean I'm also voting no ban.

 

[ZannaBianca]

But pex is still good with scald who needs it when you have recover,haze and toxic. But I see what you mean I'm also voting no ban.

Even with all the Choice Band cals others have already posted, there is to consider that now without Scald Pex could literally do nothing to Chien Pao if it decides to run Taunt

 

[Pinlup is the best]

Even with all the Choice Band cals others have already posted, there is to consider that now without Scald Pex could literally do nothing to Chien Pao if it decides to run Taunt

I'm not saying pex is good a a counter I mean overall as a pokemon pex can do nothing against pao I'm just saying people still run pex because without scald it's still a good pokemon.

 

[ZannaBianca]

I'm not saying pex is good a a counter I mean overall as a pokemon pex can do nothing against pao I'm just saying people still run pex because without scald it's still a good pokemon.

Absolutely, the usage stats demonstrate that even after all the gutting it is still an excellent defensive pivot

 

[CoralReaper707]

While it may not be as strong as Chi-Yu, it's definitely still insanely strong. Chien-Pao is also blazing fast, has servicible bulk, is insanely flexible, it has priority, and abuses tera like it's no tommorrow. It's "Checks" are (as other people have already said) hardly even checks. If you want anything faster than Chien-Pao, you'd have to use dragapult, who's weak to both of it's stabs, or you'd have to go dumpster diving for Electrode and Barraskewda. All three of those mons get melted by it's priority. Also, the fact that Paldean Tauros has a "niche" in the tier all because of it is fucking ridiculous.
Therefore...FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BAN