I will be voting no ban on chien pao okay it's fats and crazy strong but the checks to this thing are way to common for it to be actually broken unaware dondozo ignores this thing completely so does garganacl if they are lacking scared sword, not to mention bulk up quaquaval can take one hit and then set up on it. stealth rock exist and I haven't seen this thing run heavy duty boots because of the need of choice band or a life ord. Also there is so much priority that can stop this thing from sweeping Scizor with bullet punch(I mean bulky Scizor I'm pretty sure offensive gets 2KO from full with crunch). There's also mach punch too. Not to mention quark drive iron violent is a common set for it and if the booster energy is not consumed yet it should be able to outspeed and not die to a crunch or sucker if hazards are dealt with. Overall Smogon this thing is not broken there is way to much priority and walls to stop this thing.
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Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Munch
- Thread starter Finchinator
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252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 238-280 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Chien-Pao: 212-250 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Garganacl: 220-260 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Garganacl Salt Cure vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Chien-Pao: 52-63 (17.2 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
i'd personally argue ghold is ever so slightly better but that's just my opinion
anyway, so as to not make this a one-liner, i have a question for you anti-ban folks: what is the counterplay you're using to reliably beat chien-pao? i keep hearing about counterplay but not seeing any that doesn't just drop to a different pao set and/or hazard support, so i'm wondering if there's just something i'm missing
bro every thing you listed loses besides valiant
a lot of the time I just Tera something to a resist and kill it, like fighting tusk, fire gambit/loom, fight bulky dnite, or just run bulky azu/qqval.
you could alternatively run Tauros, though their lack of recovery, rocks weakness, and setup fodder tendencies to a lot of the special attackers in the tier is another issue.
not to be That Guy™, but the fire form is neutral to rocks and the water form resists them. this actually might make them even less adequate answers to pao because if they were weak to rocks they'd run boots more often; as it is, they have trouble switching into pao repeatedly with spikes support, especially if pao has already tera'd
meant to post this earlier but i forgor :skull:
Chien-Pao is extremely oppressive and often forces sub-optimal teambuilding in order to check it, leaving teams vulnerable to other offensive threats; something Pao's teammates often take advantage of. It frequently forces 50/50s; can I switch my Great Tusk into a banded Crunch or am I sending in setup bait? Can I beat it with my Scarf user or am I going to get Sucker Punched into oblivion? Will my own Pao win the speed tie with Sacred Sword? Can Dondozo come in safely or will it get hit by Crunch's Defense drop and/or Tera Dark? The only reason why it's been allowed for so long is because it's tame in comparison to previous broken threats like Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu. Def voting Ban
Chien-Pao is extremely oppressive and often forces sub-optimal teambuilding in order to check it, leaving teams vulnerable to other offensive threats; something Pao's teammates often take advantage of. It frequently forces 50/50s; can I switch my Great Tusk into a banded Crunch or am I sending in setup bait? Can I beat it with my Scarf user or am I going to get Sucker Punched into oblivion? Will my own Pao win the speed tie with Sacred Sword? Can Dondozo come in safely or will it get hit by Crunch's Defense drop and/or Tera Dark? The only reason why it's been allowed for so long is because it's tame in comparison to previous broken threats like Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu. Def voting Ban
I currently believe a ban is necessary for this. However, terastallization is a big contributing factor to these suspects and quickbans, as about 75% of these Pokémon won't be as good if tera didn't exist. Like Garganacl for example, if it couldn't simply tera Grass on a water move, it would be significantly less threatening than it is in the tier.
Chien-Pao, however, is less reliant on terastallization than most other Pokémon. It's high attack stat along with its speed allows it to outspeed and potentially OHKO anything that threatens it, and its access to Ice Shard and Sucker Punch allows it to finish off weak opponents. Sacred Sword also allows it to cover threats like Chi-Yu (previously, before it was banned).
Chien-Pao can also act as a sweeper under the right conditions. From my experience of using Chien-Pao at the beginning of SV (I stopped using it a while ago until the suspect), there have been many instances where I could simply use only Chien-Pao to get an easy win. I admit, I have also been swept by a singular Chian-Pao before, probably like most people in this suspect or even OU players in general. Chien-Pao can easily stack up a few Swords Dances, tera Ice (sometimes), and start spamming Ice Shard and other moves.
However, Chien-Pao has some checks and counters:
Priority: Chien-Pao is pretty physically frail, and its Ice/Dark typing makes it 4x weak to Fighting and weak to Steel, meaning it can't take (if not can barely live) a Bullet Punch or Mach Punch from
or 
. I understand Ice Shard exists for Breloom, but from my experience at least a lot of Breloom run Focus Sash, and I also run Focus Sash Breloom a lot.252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chien-Pao: 258-306 (85.7 - 101.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chien-Pao: 472-556 (156.8 - 184.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hazards: Since Chien-Pao is an Ice/Dark type, it takes 25% damage from Stealth Rock, leaving it open to be killed even easier. Along with that, Chien-Pao struggles to keep Pokémon such as Garganacl from setting up rocks due to Garganacl's high defense stat. This Stealth Rock damage plus 3 layers of Spikes (if that ever happens, but I almost always get 3 layers) equals 50% damage, easily dying to a Bullet Punch from Scizor or an Extreme Speed from Dragonite.
Toxic: This is my own personal opinion or from my own experiences, but I normally take care of a Chien-Pao by using Toxic on it and then stalling the poison with Clodsire, preventing it from setting up on an Unaware mon and barely doing any damage since I'm spamming Recover and occasionally (if I have it, but I barely run it on a Clodsire) Protect.
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(this is not an edit, just a break)
I forgot to mention this earlier, but its signature ability, Sword of Ruin, is also a key factor in this Pokémons potential. Sword of Ruin lowers every mon on the fields physical defense by 25%, and it is very clearly a physical attacker, meaning this thing can be a menace to your entire team if you're not careful.
As time goes on, I see less and less Chien-Pao in OU, and I see more and more checks and counters for Chien-Pao on peoples teams, such as Breloom. (This is all in my personal experiences)
Note that my vote may change quite a bit as I am very easily persuaded.
Metagames can shift yeah, but usually when a mon is only riding the flavour of the month of hype people usually adapt after getting beat up by it, if there are tools in the builder being overlooked. For example, there was a time last gen when Rillaboom was considered broken by a notable minority due to its ability to clean certain kinds of archetypes well at one point in time. But at the end of the day the metagame had the tools to shift out of Rillaboom's favour: torn Zapdos,, corviknight dragonite, volcarona, flame body heatran, buzzwole etc, with some of the options available against it being worse or better depending on other metagame trends occuring.
But basically the counters always existed in the builder. After people started using these mons more and fitting them into more builds, among other trends, Rillaboom almost funnily nearly fell off the map, until a new resurgence towards the end of the gen with bulkier sets designed to abuse some of the aforementioned checks and counters. but what's important is that all those mons i listed are good and viable OU mons outside of dealing with Rilaboom.
But I don't think Chien Pao is that kind of case where it's just been the flavour of the month, counterplay in the builder and in-game seem pretty limited.
edit: deleting first portion of this post in retro since it's just my bias and not fact
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counter-play for chien-pao absolutely exists:
x
x
this is all defensive counter-play btw. this pokemon has plenty of offensive counter-play from scarf / booster iron valiant to wisp pult to mach punch users like pawmot and loom (needs to be BANDED ice shard for the latter) to slither wing to scizor. if some of these are too niche for ur tastes u can usually get some chip & rk it with stuff like espeed tera-normal nite and kingambit
pao can beat everything i mentioned above with good plays. yes that's what you call a good pokemon. to prove my points with experience i got reqs 29-1 with a team that didn't use pao at all: https://pokepast.es/7956642a34569b6f my fucking pao counter was rotom-w and pawmot LOL i was perfectly fine when it came to out-manuevering it in practice. pao is just an amazing 'mon. amazing =/= broken
SV gave us hella broken fat shit like garg (this broken counters pao) and dondozo. despite the nerfs u kids r still running pex smh. "if i have to run bunker on pex that's not healthy" how much of a handicap do u fat spammers need
AYO LET'S EXTINGUISH EVERY BREAKER FROM THE TIER SS-LITE BABY
to finish this post off let me say i will happily vote ban on chien-pao if garganacl gets banned
i just find it ridiculous how pro-garg players can say running that shit ass covert cloak item and putting substitute on random shit like skeledirge and rotom-w is healthy / "meta adapting bro" but having to burn tera on already good 'mons like dondozo and pex to beat pao is unhealthy? fuck off
"33% spl win-rate" no shit ur not losing to garg when ur team has some random substitute user + cloak dengo. ratchet ass team structure
ban garg first. if the community does that i will vote ban on pao
UNTIL THEN I ADVISE MY BROTHAS TO VOTE DO NOT BAN ON PAO
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counter-play for chien-pao absolutely exists:
x
1. garganacl
- fairy garganacl fucks up chien-pao. salt cure is broken. it needs to icicle flinch hax to beat you
2. tauros-aqua and tauros-fiyah
- hard counters
3. bunker pex
- if they run lock into crunch you can poison it. if they tera-dark crunch you can tera-fairy then it'll never be able to beat you. it needs icicle crash flinches but run covert cloak. pro-garg players are already spamming it for garg
5. using tera-reactively with something like water tusk or fairy gambit to flip the script
6. entry hazards can limit this set. "chi-yu was weak to hazards too got banned" ye but chi-yu has 135 special attack and 130bp stab. pao has 80bp stabs and not even close to as strong.
7. this 'mon is locking into either dark or ice. stuff like tusk can come in comfortably on crunch. rotom-w on icicle crash. kingambit can come in once on both stabs
"but ayo sacred sword kills gambit"
ye if they click it. anti-pao players act like banded pao is getting every prediction turn right
- fairy garganacl fucks up chien-pao. salt cure is broken. it needs to icicle flinch hax to beat you
2. tauros-aqua and tauros-fiyah
- hard counters
3. bunker pex
- if they run lock into crunch you can poison it. if they tera-dark crunch you can tera-fairy then it'll never be able to beat you. it needs icicle crash flinches but run covert cloak. pro-garg players are already spamming it for garg
5. using tera-reactively with something like water tusk or fairy gambit to flip the script
6. entry hazards can limit this set. "chi-yu was weak to hazards too got banned" ye but chi-yu has 135 special attack and 130bp stab. pao has 80bp stabs and not even close to as strong.
7. this 'mon is locking into either dark or ice. stuff like tusk can come in comfortably on crunch. rotom-w on icicle crash. kingambit can come in once on both stabs
"but ayo sacred sword kills gambit"
ye if they click it. anti-pao players act like banded pao is getting every prediction turn right
x
everything under cb counter-play bar point #6
1. volcarona
- needs to attack you twice to kill and can burn
2. corv
- you can run cloak to avoid flinch. pro-garg players are already using it for garg. it's just an item bro !
3. dondozo
4. iron hands
5. quaquaval
6. azumarill
7. rotom-w can come in once or twice
8. tera-fairy dirge
boots pao hits like a wet fucking bag too. i've used a non-tera'd tusk to check boots pao before. icicle crash does like 45% lul
1. volcarona
- needs to attack you twice to kill and can burn
2. corv
- you can run cloak to avoid flinch. pro-garg players are already using it for garg. it's just an item bro !
3. dondozo
4. iron hands
5. quaquaval
6. azumarill
7. rotom-w can come in once or twice
8. tera-fairy dirge
boots pao hits like a wet fucking bag too. i've used a non-tera'd tusk to check boots pao before. icicle crash does like 45% lul
pao can beat everything i mentioned above with good plays. yes that's what you call a good pokemon. to prove my points with experience i got reqs 29-1 with a team that didn't use pao at all: https://pokepast.es/7956642a34569b6f my fucking pao counter was rotom-w and pawmot LOL i was perfectly fine when it came to out-manuevering it in practice. pao is just an amazing 'mon. amazing =/= broken
SV gave us hella broken fat shit like garg (this broken counters pao) and dondozo. despite the nerfs u kids r still running pex smh. "if i have to run bunker on pex that's not healthy" how much of a handicap do u fat spammers need
AYO LET'S EXTINGUISH EVERY BREAKER FROM THE TIER SS-LITE BABY
to finish this post off let me say i will happily vote ban on chien-pao if garganacl gets banned
i just find it ridiculous how pro-garg players can say running that shit ass covert cloak item and putting substitute on random shit like skeledirge and rotom-w is healthy / "meta adapting bro" but having to burn tera on already good 'mons like dondozo and pex to beat pao is unhealthy? fuck off
"33% spl win-rate" no shit ur not losing to garg when ur team has some random substitute user + cloak dengo. ratchet ass team structure
ban garg first. if the community does that i will vote ban on pao
UNTIL THEN I ADVISE MY BROTHAS TO VOTE DO NOT BAN ON PAO
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so your arguments amount to "offense good, bulk bad"?
(note that i didn't actually read your post because any no-ban argument for chien-pao causes me to lose brain cells and i don't have enough of them left as it is, but any argument that mentions tauros can be safely discarded anyway)
Hi everyone, I would like to bring to your attention the Pokemon, Chien-Pao and why it should be banned from the Pokemon Showdown metagame.
Problem:
Chien-Pao is a formidable Pokemon that possesses a unique combination of Speed, Power, and versatility in moves that makes it a top-tier threat in the metagame. Its ability “Sword of Ruin” combined with its move choice of Sword’s Dance for pressure, STAB’s in dark & ice along with fighting coverage, has made it nearly impossible to counter, leading to a lack of diversity in team building and a decrease in the overall enjoyment of playing the game.
Evidence:
In recent Pokemon Showdown tournaments, Chien-Pao has been dominating the meta with its high win rate and low counter play options. It has been seen in almost every game and has been a source of frustration for many players who feel like they have no viable options to deal with it, specifically with Choice Band variations. The prevalence of Chien-Pao in the metagame has also resulted in a decrease in the usage of other Pokemon, further diminishing the diversity of the game.
Conclusion:
In conclusion, Chien-Pao's current state in the metagame is unhealthy and has resulted in a decrease in the enjoyment of playing Pokemon Showdown. It is for these reasons that I respectfully vow in favor of banning Chien-Pao in the Pokemon Showdown metagame during this suspect test
-ChatGPT may or may not have helped in the production of this post.
Problem:
Chien-Pao is a formidable Pokemon that possesses a unique combination of Speed, Power, and versatility in moves that makes it a top-tier threat in the metagame. Its ability “Sword of Ruin” combined with its move choice of Sword’s Dance for pressure, STAB’s in dark & ice along with fighting coverage, has made it nearly impossible to counter, leading to a lack of diversity in team building and a decrease in the overall enjoyment of playing the game.
Evidence:
In recent Pokemon Showdown tournaments, Chien-Pao has been dominating the meta with its high win rate and low counter play options. It has been seen in almost every game and has been a source of frustration for many players who feel like they have no viable options to deal with it, specifically with Choice Band variations. The prevalence of Chien-Pao in the metagame has also resulted in a decrease in the usage of other Pokemon, further diminishing the diversity of the game.
Conclusion:
In conclusion, Chien-Pao's current state in the metagame is unhealthy and has resulted in a decrease in the enjoyment of playing Pokemon Showdown. It is for these reasons that I respectfully vow in favor of banning Chien-Pao in the Pokemon Showdown metagame during this suspect test
-ChatGPT may or may not have helped in the production of this post.
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I belive it should be banned because it is a large threat and counters a lot of ou. even in ubers, counterplay for it is semi-difficult. it is used too much and has counters to ther counters. there is no reason it should at least be religated to OUBL
Terra may or may not be the reason chien pao is broken but it should not matter at fuckin all for this test. people already voted on that and it emphatically did not get banned.
Anyway let's ban the cat. Weasel? Sabretooth of some kind, point is this thing is stupid. It blows past everything in the tier except Tera Dondozo and sometimes Garganacl.
Anyway let's ban the cat. Weasel? Sabretooth of some kind, point is this thing is stupid. It blows past everything in the tier except Tera Dondozo and sometimes Garganacl.
It might be me being sleepy, but I think that the percentage of votes needed to take action is not specified on the first post.
Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave? Seriously though, you're not the only one and another example would be the salty ape. Chien pao is a Mon that blatanly abuses the tera mechanic. I'm really hoping it's revisited at some point because while I find it more enjoyable now, it's noticeably popping up as something that pushes multiple mons over the edge, pao, Garg, volc, dnite ,espathra, home hasn't even dropped yet and these are all still on people's radars. Enough about tera though.
Pao definitely pushes the limits, as someone who abuses it, Mon is crazy good. Honestly I think an all out attacker set with hdb is underrated. Paired with Garg you can just pressure everything to the point that even with reduced power you can still be a proper threat. Also helps that removal is currently limited to great tusk for the most part, who gets chipped to death pretty much every match.
Aside from the weirdly cocky attitude, there's a lot that just doesn't work here. In the first place, Pao being able to flinch past checks like corv is in fact a part of the problem as it makes such counterplay unreliable, due to depending on not getting flinched. Not that it needs it, since banded tera dark crunch 2HKOs. As for tera defensively to check it, you are not guaranteed to be able to have it vs Pao if you end up having to use it against something else. This restricts your options in battle potentially.
Leaving aside that no one claims you can't run covert cloak, but it also doesn't work as counterplay anyway so this is really moot. As for your "counterplay"
Fairy Garg: viable, but must be phys def as spdef gets 2HKOd by icicle crash.undefined
Tauros forms: yes they work. But they're quite niche and difficult to actually fit.
Bunker Pex: how many Pex are running this seriously.
Reactive Tera: being forced to burn tera to try and contain it, as stated above, is an issue as it's not a consistent form of counterplay.
Entry hazards: only works against banded sets. Boots sets are highly dangerous as well. Also, ChiYu being stronger doesn't matter here when this pokemon 2HKOs every defensive pokemon with the right click, and has the speed to invalidate or severely limit offensive counterplay.
Your last one here is just "come in on resisted hit" which is also called depending on prediction. Which is not reliable or consistent when prediction goes both ways.
It does 75% minimum to most tusk, unless defensive. That it doesn't outright die is testament to great tusks bulk but also only applies to defensive tusk (who btw takes 48 Mon from crash, meaning it is very easily to drop it with one good predict). HDB mops up offense and takes advantage of the fact it isn't locked to a move.
Pult takes 74% from shard. It needs the tiniest chip to drop. And better hope that wisp actually lands. Iron Valiant... Booster energy is one time use and thus means you have to preserve it solely for pao. Scarf is quite telegraphed and exploitable (and not even sure it's that common). Loom needs to avoid spikes chip to avoid being in shard range. Pawmot is niche as all get out. And slither wing, while neat, is also niche.
Could you maybe make comments that aren't laced with pettiness and immaturity? It's not helping make any point. Only Garg is remotely close to broken at all, and that's not relevant to this suspect in the first place. So much of the rest of your post is non-constructive and contributes nothing to discussion, tantamount to whining because things aren't happening in the order you like.
Can the discussion here please be civil? Insulting the other side for no reason isn’t gonna make this suspect test go any better and refusing to read arguments from people you disagree with about Pokémon is a really unhealthy way of making decisions."tera-dark cb crunch kills everything"
shocker?
shit well you can tera back with dondozo and now you beat it. tera'ing my dondozo to beat something that tera'd is an even playing field imo
"but ayo bro it can click icicle crash after and flinch you"
shocker?
my guy that's called hax, not chien-pao being broken.
if the dumbass goes for the flinch vs corv turn 3 and i click body press then he's ass. but if he hax's then it's chien-pao being broken not my opponent being dogshit?
also if you're scared about flinches you can just run covert cloak
yes i said it.
covert. fucking. cloak.
so pro-garg players can say "covert cloak ain't even that bad" but i can't use it for pao? double standards smh
covert cloak avoids icicle flinch and the defense drop from pao making it much more manageable in practice
counter-play for chien-pao absolutely exists:
1. garganacl
- fairy garganacl fucks up chien-pao. salt cure is broken. it needs to icicle flinch hax to beat you
2. tauros-aqua and tauros-fiyah
- hard counters
3. bunker pex
- if they run lock into crunch you can poison it. if they tera-dark crunch you can tera-fairy then it'll never be able to beat you. it needs icicle crash flinches but run covert cloak. pro-garg players are already spamming it for garg
5. using tera-reactively with something like water tusk or fairy gambit to flip the script
6. entry hazards can limit this set. "chi-yu was weak to hazards too got banned" ye but chi-yu has 135 special attack and 130bp stab. pao has 80bp stabs and not even close to as strong.
7. this 'mon is locking into either dark or ice. stuff like tusk can come in comfortably on crunch. rotom-w on icicle crash. kingambit can come in once on both stabs
"but ayo sacred sword kills gambit"
ye if they click it. anti-pao players act like banded pao is getting every prediction turn rightthis is all defensive counter-play btw. this pokemon has plenty of offensive counter-play from scarf / booster iron valiant to wisp pult to mach punch users like pawmot and loom (needs to be BANDED ice shard for the latter) to slither wingeverything under cb counter-play bar point #6
1. volcarona
- needs to attack you twice to kill and can burn
2. corv
- you can run cloak to avoid flinch. pro-garg players are already using it for garg. it's just an item bro !
3. dondozo
4. iron hands
5. quaquaval
6. azumarill
boots pao hits like a wet fucking bag too. i've used a non-tera'd tusk to check boots pao before. icicle crash does like 45% lul
pao can beat everything i mentioned above with good plays. yes that's what you call a good pokemon. to prove my points with experience i got reqs 29-1 with a team that didn't use pao at all: https://pokepast.es/7956642a34569b6f my fucking pao counter was rotom-w and pawmot LOL. pao is amazing. it's not unbeatable though. it has both offensive and defensive counter-play. amazing =/= broken
SV gave us hella broken fat shit like garg (this broken counters pao) and dondozo. despite the nerfs u kids r still running pex smh. "if i have to run bunker on pex that's not healthy" how much of a handicap do u fat spammers need
AYO LET'S EXTINGUISH EVERY BREAKER FROM THE TIER SS-LITE BABY
to finish this post off let me say i will happily vote ban on chien-pao if garganacl gets banned
i just find it ridiculous how pro-garg players can say running that shit ass covert cloak item and putting substitute on random shit like skeledirge and rotom-w is healthy / "meta adapting bro" but having to burn tera on already good 'mons like dondozo and pex to beat pao is unhealthy? fuck off
"33% spl win-rate" no shit ur not losing to garg when ur team has some random substitute user + cloak dengo. ratchet ass team structure
ban garg first. if the community does that i will vote ban on pao
UNTIL THEN I ADVISE MY BROTHAS TO VOTE DO NOT BAN ON PAO
I’m leaning towards a no ban for the time being. I see people stating that it is being “used too much” as if that alone is a ban worthy criteria. Chein Pao is used a lot because it hits like a nuclear bomb and has solid matchups against Gholdengo and Great Tusk, the other two Pokemon everyone uses. It is likely the best Pokemon for the pure offense role, but it being “banworthy” honestly comes up to what people what the power level and pace of OU to be like.
I think Chien-Pao a no-brainer choice for a team, but so is Great Tusk IMO. Part of me is a bit worried about the state of the meta with him banned, as I feel he’s keeping a lot of degenerate stuff like Ganganacl and other walls in check for the time being, as you really need to keep Pao in mind while teambuilding. It “defines the meta” in a way, but whether you like that “definition” is subjective. I personally like the absolute nonsense that Gen 9 OU produces at the moment and don’t feel any Pokemon need to be removed for the time being. Obviously many people disagree but that’s why there’s a vote.
in short, he ain’t broken because I run Iron Valiant and pray to god the cold dog isn’t scarfed.
I think Chien-Pao a no-brainer choice for a team, but so is Great Tusk IMO. Part of me is a bit worried about the state of the meta with him banned, as I feel he’s keeping a lot of degenerate stuff like Ganganacl and other walls in check for the time being, as you really need to keep Pao in mind while teambuilding. It “defines the meta” in a way, but whether you like that “definition” is subjective. I personally like the absolute nonsense that Gen 9 OU produces at the moment and don’t feel any Pokemon need to be removed for the time being. Obviously many people disagree but that’s why there’s a vote.
in short, he ain’t broken because I run Iron Valiant and pray to god the cold dog isn’t scarfed.
You are missing the point that Chien-Pao is incredibly powerful. The only long-term answers to all physical sets are the Tauros formes, and valiant is not a counter, as it gets shitted on by icicle crash.
If an effective base attack over 170, lightning fast speed, an actual offensive movepool and STAB on 2 phenomenal offensive types is more for OU than Uber, I am speechless
no, you see, two unviable mons can reliably switch into it more than twice, so it must be ok
Unless the Garg is 252 HP / 196+ Def, it has a greater than 50% chance to die if it switches in on a banded Icicle Crash. And I don't know about you, but, personally? I think if something with Garg's bulk needs to invest in both HP and DEF EVs to safely switch in to a neutral move, that neutral move may be a little too strong for the rest of the tier.
- fairy garganacl fucks up chien-pao. salt cure is broken. it needs to icicle flinch hax to beat you
Doubly when the mon in question also has a completely reasonable 135 base Speed.
There's a difference between "defining the meta" and "having a stranglehold on the meta", and Chien-Pao is the latter, as there is very little counterplay offensively or defensively thanks to being nigh impossible to outspeed, and hitting like a Warlock Punch. Also, Iron Valiant is not a counter. RE: Garganacl, the fact that something with Garganacl's level of bulk needs to invest heavily in HP and defense just to come in on a banded Icicle Crash comfortably is saying a lot about how busted Chien-Pao is.
Do I need to explain why Chien-Pao Needs to be banned from OU?
Chien-Pao was god-tier from the start.
Almost out speeding every mon in this meta, having a broken ability (Sword of Ruin lowers the defense of the Pokemon around it), AND having really good STAB moves that threaten most mons.
It's the exact reason why Chi-Yu was banned to Ubers.
some calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 238-280 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
One of the best walls in this meta, Dodonzo, being 2HKO'ed just like that
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 474-560 (92.2 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 210-248 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even without band, that's still a lot of damage
So sorry Chien-Pao lovers, I'm gonna say a BAN for this one.
It's too strong for OU to handle, and i'm quite surprised it wasn't quickbanned like Chi-Yu.
Chien-Pao was god-tier from the start.
Almost out speeding every mon in this meta, having a broken ability (Sword of Ruin lowers the defense of the Pokemon around it), AND having really good STAB moves that threaten most mons.
It's the exact reason why Chi-Yu was banned to Ubers.
some calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 238-280 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
One of the best walls in this meta, Dodonzo, being 2HKO'ed just like that
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 474-560 (92.2 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 210-248 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even without band, that's still a lot of damage
So sorry Chien-Pao lovers, I'm gonna say a BAN for this one.
It's too strong for OU to handle, and i'm quite surprised it wasn't quickbanned like Chi-Yu.
A Mountain's Gale, A Ruinous Tale,
A king's appetite for a feast, sends him away for a grift,
A kindly merchant from the east, brings him ruin disguised as a gift,
A blade so beautiful, it satiates the kings's greed that won't budge,
But the gift isnt so bountiful, As it holds an eastern grudge,
Souls taken from war, Souls which the blade bears,
The ruinous rage can no longer be contained,
The blade razed the kingdom in a single night,
Leaving the kingdom ruined and pained,
The Saber of Winter's might.
Millenias later in Paldea, Seeks a trainer and its steed,
Felt the chill of a ruinous aura, The Sword of ruin heed,
The Sword of Ruin has been freed of its Cage,
In the form of a cat, Will it free its rage,
Sword cat is strong,
Sword cat is fast
Sword cat is kinda fat,
It will release its rage to the people who did it wrong,
Only uncertainty is how long will they last?
Before the bloodshed reds the mat.
And thus.... The council heeds its lust.
A Fluttering Mane, A hound with lasting respect,
A fin of evils bane, A bird of shame that got it's respect,
The council held their fist together, An uber oust.
The Beads of Ruin, A Soul filled with rage, A Shedding Annoyyance.
The Council has ousted its share of Abundance.
The Sword of Ruin has bide its time, Strongest of them all,
Its dominance only continues to climb, but...
Will it finally bring its fall?
Egyptian Ostrich, Effigy of Salt.
None can stand to the tabby's Fault.
The council's tyranny will be put to a pause,
Divulged "let the people, vote for their own clause!".
Mob. A cry for its oust.
Mob. A howl for its presence.
The cry was heard near and far, from Viridian to Vanivile,
louder than the roar by far, a cry for the tabby's exile.
An exempt, from a player that is new to gen 9
A crunch two shotting dondozo,
How can something two-shot that bozo?
Speed eclipsing everything except dragapult?
alright just give this thing the boot.
It has priority that beats the other mons with it?
Alright, just ban it.
Oh god defense raise when its snowing?
And the best setter is slowking?
Thats insane support from a mon with that spdef,
especially with valiant and its move thats also used by clef,
Im starting to get tired of doing rhyme,
You know i think its time,
My vote is what i give now,
And that is to ban chien pao.
Now, why did i write a page long haiku?
I mean the choice is obvious, so let me just entertain you.
"but its a poetry, not a haiku" SHUT UP,
haiku rhymes with entertain you,
sorry for taking the thread's space up,
rubaboo, jackaroo
(its way too strong and fast and can beat priority mons with its own, but also screw garganacl, and yes... i will still vote ban pao. even though it would make garg stronger... sigh)
A king's appetite for a feast, sends him away for a grift,
A kindly merchant from the east, brings him ruin disguised as a gift,
A blade so beautiful, it satiates the kings's greed that won't budge,
But the gift isnt so bountiful, As it holds an eastern grudge,
Souls taken from war, Souls which the blade bears,
The ruinous rage can no longer be contained,
The blade razed the kingdom in a single night,
Leaving the kingdom ruined and pained,
The Saber of Winter's might.
Millenias later in Paldea, Seeks a trainer and its steed,
Felt the chill of a ruinous aura, The Sword of ruin heed,
The Sword of Ruin has been freed of its Cage,
In the form of a cat, Will it free its rage,
Sword cat is strong,
Sword cat is fast
Sword cat is kinda fat,
It will release its rage to the people who did it wrong,
Only uncertainty is how long will they last?
Before the bloodshed reds the mat.
And thus.... The council heeds its lust.
A Fluttering Mane, A hound with lasting respect,
A fin of evils bane, A bird of shame that got it's respect,
The council held their fist together, An uber oust.
The Beads of Ruin, A Soul filled with rage, A Shedding Annoyyance.
The Council has ousted its share of Abundance.
The Sword of Ruin has bide its time, Strongest of them all,
Its dominance only continues to climb, but...
Will it finally bring its fall?
Egyptian Ostrich, Effigy of Salt.
None can stand to the tabby's Fault.
The council's tyranny will be put to a pause,
Divulged "let the people, vote for their own clause!".
Mob. A cry for its oust.
Mob. A howl for its presence.
The cry was heard near and far, from Viridian to Vanivile,
louder than the roar by far, a cry for the tabby's exile.
An exempt, from a player that is new to gen 9
A crunch two shotting dondozo,
How can something two-shot that bozo?
Speed eclipsing everything except dragapult?
alright just give this thing the boot.
It has priority that beats the other mons with it?
Alright, just ban it.
Oh god defense raise when its snowing?
And the best setter is slowking?
Thats insane support from a mon with that spdef,
especially with valiant and its move thats also used by clef,
Im starting to get tired of doing rhyme,
You know i think its time,
My vote is what i give now,
And that is to ban chien pao.
Now, why did i write a page long haiku?
I mean the choice is obvious, so let me just entertain you.
"but its a poetry, not a haiku" SHUT UP,
haiku rhymes with entertain you,
sorry for taking the thread's space up,
rubaboo, jackaroo
(its way too strong and fast and can beat priority mons with its own, but also screw garganacl, and yes... i will still vote ban pao. even though it would make garg stronger... sigh)
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