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- Thread starter Finchinator
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I wanna see weavile be viable in OU again
make weavile great again!
disclaimer: I am aware that the addition of Dondozo, Garganacl, great tusk and all other friends means Weavile’s best coverage options with Tera boosted Low Kick or poison jab might not move the needle enough due to their endless bulk and no sword of ruin damage booster.
r.I.p. weavile. I am surprised Chien-Pao made it this far, as it was extremely clear after Chi-Yu left OU that ice boy would simply take its spot. Specced out overheats were swapped for banded crunches.
make weavile great again!
disclaimer: I am aware that the addition of Dondozo, Garganacl, great tusk and all other friends means Weavile’s best coverage options with Tera boosted Low Kick or poison jab might not move the needle enough due to their endless bulk and no sword of ruin damage booster.
r.I.p. weavile. I am surprised Chien-Pao made it this far, as it was extremely clear after Chi-Yu left OU that ice boy would simply take its spot. Specced out overheats were swapped for banded crunches.
Hey I just want to say that I do believe that Chien-Pao needs to be banned from OU. Not only is it one of the fastest Pokémon in the tier but its ability makes is almost impossible to switch into. The only Pokémon that can reliably wall it without teralization are Toxapex and Dondozo both of which can be warn down by Chien's partners to K.O.
Not even those can wall the band set - pex gets two hit by crunch even without chien tera dark, and dondozo gets two hit if it does tera.
For the future, inquires like this should go here as to not clog up this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers-thread.3710772/
Regardless, Crunch provides a lot of merit and fitting a second move that is close to identical is a hard sell, so it’s unlikely, especially considering Skeledirge would likely just Wisp if Tera is not used yet since Tera Dark can KO with minimal chip and allows it to live Torch Song.
Got reqs again without a Chien-Pao team (a slightly modified/updated version of the weekly featured Tera Fairy Volc offense: https://pokepast.es/5cc508da36210c48), and even though I was definitely quite firmly pro-ban before getting reqs, I'm a little bit less sure now. Yes, most of reqs was dunking on low and mid ladder players, but in general, Pao could be pleasantly handled using offensiveish checks in Azumarill, Volcarona, and Kingambit. If it was banded and clicked the wrong move, often lead to giving up a key turn of setup, which in the tera-is-still-somehow-around meta, can be really, really costly. If it has boots, then bulky mons can probably switch in and handle it without too much loss of momentum. If it has life orb, then with rocks up it'll put itself into priority range real quick, which is a major issue with all the priority running around right now to emergency check things.
Now, I realize that a lot of these issues might just be artifacts of playing against sub 1700s ladder players. Playing on my main in the 1700-1800 range, Chien-Pao is definitely a lot scarier, with good prediction, setup, and hazard control, not to mention the insanely destructive Future Reception combo. I'm still probably leaning ban, but I'm openly wondering if Chien-Pao is only really too much to handle when expertly built around, and if so, if that's truly enough to condemn it to Ubers.
Now, I realize that a lot of these issues might just be artifacts of playing against sub 1700s ladder players. Playing on my main in the 1700-1800 range, Chien-Pao is definitely a lot scarier, with good prediction, setup, and hazard control, not to mention the insanely destructive Future Reception combo. I'm still probably leaning ban, but I'm openly wondering if Chien-Pao is only really too much to handle when expertly built around, and if so, if that's truly enough to condemn it to Ubers.
Why I will be voting Ban on Chien-Pao:In this post I will adress common pro-ban arguments, anti-ban arguments, give my opinion on each, and add a few more arguments to the marketplace of ideas.
Common Pro-Ban Arguments:
"Chien-Pao is overcentralizing offensively and overshadows a bunch of Pokémon."
I completely agree with this, Chien-Pao fits on almost every playstyle and team structure, being a very common offensive choice on Semi-Stall teams, a pretty much mandatory pick for Chilly Reception Balance teams as well as having a good presence in Bulky Offensive and HO teams (especially Psychic Terrain HO).
Not only did Chien-Pao completely dethrone Weavile, it also overshadows the Offensive Dark Types in OU, most notably Roaring Moon.
"Chien-Pao has very few counters and you are forced to run very specific team structures that support it´s niche counters."
I agree that the "reliable" Chien-Pao counters is a list that consists of defensive
, 
and 
with the occasional anti Tera wall also being an option; but for me these Pokémon dont force you to run very specific team structures and actually have other purposes on a team other than checking .All of the Pokémon mentioned are great to counters to
and 
also being able to deal with non-acrobatics 
among other Pokémon. Quaquaval and Tauros-Paldea-Aqua fit nicely on Rain, while Tauros-Paldea-Fire deals with 
and 
pretty well. In terms of utility, 
can run Will-o-wisp, while can be a valuable Rapid Spin option. The teambuilding possibilities are still immense.Common Anti-Ban Arguments:
"We can´t keep banning the successive Top Tier Threats in OU withouth giving time for the metagame to develop."
I understand the reasoning behind this argument, but for me, the way the metagame has been developing makes the future very predictable.
As Chien-Pao keeps dominating OU, abusing Psychic Terrain to block priority and replacing it´s own priority moves with Psychic Fangs, which nukes it´s 3 "reliable" counters as well as
it is fair to assume that Chien-Pao itself already started adapting to the few counterplay it had by blocking priority against offensive teams and carrying Psychic Fangs for some of it´s few switch-ins. Therefore, it does not matter if more people start adapting to Chien-Pao by using the Tauros-forms, Toxapex or Quaquaval, since they are not able to counter it´s new tools."If we ban Chien-Pao Stall will become even better!"
Yes, and?
A Rarely Mentioned Argument:
Although a lot of people seem to forget this, Chien-Pao can viably run other Tera sets like Tera Ice and Tera Electric, turning the tables on the counterplay it previously had.
Tera Ice eases prediction against Bulky Offensive teams to an absurd level. Generally, a lot of teams make risky plays around Chien-Pao switching their Great Tusk or Ting-Lu on crunch and achieve a trade-off from there. Tera Ice on HDB sets allows Chien-Pao to OHKO both after a little bit of damage, meaning you never have to predict them.
Tera Electric is truly underrated because it allows Chien-Pao to nuke Quaquaval, Dondozo, Toxapex, Tauros-Paldea-Aqua, completely turning the tables on almost all of it´s common switch-ins. With correct play, it also allows you to break through Tauros-Paldea-Fire much faster than Tera Dark, while surprising Scarf Gholdengo with a resistance to Make it Rain. Electric + Ice stab combination is amazing and there is currently nothing in OU that resists both.
I should conclude this post by mentioning that just when you think you have Chien-Pao under control, a crunch defense drop or an icicle crash flinch will change everything. At least Weavile did not have to rely on hax to be good in Gen 8.
It´s time for the Sword Cat to meet his brother in Ubers.
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I definitely feel like Chien needs to be banned. His oppression is insane, specially with his ability.
The only reason I'll ever miss him in OU is for his design lol. But Ubers is there for that.
The only reason I'll ever miss him in OU is for his design lol. But Ubers is there for that.
Chien-Pao adds nothing of value to the tier, and the only thing it does is restrict teambuilding.
The issue is, even restricted teambuilding doesn't always help against Pao. While it's quite a bit weaker than Chi-Yu, Pao also outspeeds most of the offensive threats. Pao breaks both offense and defense all by itself.
So yeah, everybody should vote ban. I am more surprised Pao didn't get a single vote during 3 waves of quickbans
The issue is, even restricted teambuilding doesn't always help against Pao. While it's quite a bit weaker than Chi-Yu, Pao also outspeeds most of the offensive threats. Pao breaks both offense and defense all by itself.
So yeah, everybody should vote ban. I am more surprised Pao didn't get a single vote during 3 waves of quickbans
Im thinking Ban.
I think that Chien Pao to overwhelming for most things to handle. Also if Chien Pao were gone it would leave room for the less threatening dark/ice pokemon weavile. Its ability also increases its special bulk by a good margin and leaves physical moves to hit it, and I think that it usually runs focus sash.
I think that Chien Pao to overwhelming for most things to handle. Also if Chien Pao were gone it would leave room for the less threatening dark/ice pokemon weavile. Its ability also increases its special bulk by a good margin and leaves physical moves to hit it, and I think that it usually runs focus sash.
Stall fear mongering needs to end. There are plenty of breakers in the tier and stall is kind of ass right now and that's not owed entirely to pao.
Not to mention the bit about wanting to ban garg first is so irrelevant. Why do a pokemon hunger strike. They're both busted.
Anyways if I had the patience to sit through reqs (im not very good and also it's boring sadly) I would be voting ban. Really im just chipping in to avoid this being a one-liner. Chien Pao literally just a mindless click the button to kill mon with unresisted coverage. Not to mention tera types either letting it be funny with fighting/electric or just fucking kill you with ice/dark. Pretty much all of its sets are crazy good and the counterplay is limited at best. Bunker on pex is bad outside of the chien pao mu do not let people trick you. But you already know that, everybody here has been saying this already. I'm kind of surprised it wasn't a quick ban (not a dunk on the council just my own thoughts). Really I don't see how banning this weasel is anything but a net positive for the tier.
One thing is killing stall, which I love, nobody should like stall, but pao is excelent against offense too thanks to its natural high speed and hax ratio with crunch defense drop, icicle crash flinches, sd and double priority to outmuscle offensive treats, so It's just not constricting in defensive building, it is on a general manner, besides, most of the """""""""""""""counters"""""""""""" pao has are bulky offensive mons,
I haven't posted my reasons here yet but I've been quite vocal on banning Pao during the last few weeks, and I'm therefore going to vote for the ban. Pretty much everybody has said what needs to be said about Pao's brokenness, so I actually wanna address something else: I've heard often by people who are against the ban that following this suspect tests, if it leads to getting rid of Pao, several other mons will eventually get on the radar and follow the same path. I heavily disagree on this take of the argument for 3 main reasons:
1. Broken mons should not check other broken mons; what may happen to the rest of them after this suspect test should be a concern for later, and in no way does it justify the presence of Pao in the current meta, considering how clearly unbalanced it is.
2. All of the other wallbreakers and sweepers, such as Dnite, Moon, Espathra, Dragapult, Iron Valiant etc. have clear checks and counters, or are at the very least contained by the common walls like Pex, Corviknight, Ting-Lu, Garg, defensive Tusk and the Unaware Trio. All of the mons mentioned above, and pretty much the rest of the most used mons in the tier right now, get 2HKOd at worst by Banded Pao. Not a single one of them is able to escape Pao's coverage of Ice+Dark+Fighting, and even Terastallizing or switching in doesn't spare them from good predictions by the opponent. This has forced many players to run multiple check cores for Chien on their teams, restring teambuilding and even making some players resort to niche builds.
3. Following this logic, I believe that once Pao gets banned all of the defensive mons mentioned above will be able to check the most common sweepers more consistently, therefore balancing the game.
These are just my opinions of course, and only time will tell what will happen to the meta in the next weeks.
1. Broken mons should not check other broken mons; what may happen to the rest of them after this suspect test should be a concern for later, and in no way does it justify the presence of Pao in the current meta, considering how clearly unbalanced it is.
2. All of the other wallbreakers and sweepers, such as Dnite, Moon, Espathra, Dragapult, Iron Valiant etc. have clear checks and counters, or are at the very least contained by the common walls like Pex, Corviknight, Ting-Lu, Garg, defensive Tusk and the Unaware Trio. All of the mons mentioned above, and pretty much the rest of the most used mons in the tier right now, get 2HKOd at worst by Banded Pao. Not a single one of them is able to escape Pao's coverage of Ice+Dark+Fighting, and even Terastallizing or switching in doesn't spare them from good predictions by the opponent. This has forced many players to run multiple check cores for Chien on their teams, restring teambuilding and even making some players resort to niche builds.
3. Following this logic, I believe that once Pao gets banned all of the defensive mons mentioned above will be able to check the most common sweepers more consistently, therefore balancing the game.
These are just my opinions of course, and only time will tell what will happen to the meta in the next weeks.
Not so sure about that. Cloak Dengo loses to Gambit unless it wastes a move slot on Focus Blast, a highly unreliable move. It also loses to Clodsire, is outsped and revenge killed by Meowscarada (who will undoubtedly rise if Chien is banned) and fast grounds. It also weirdly doesn't do super well against Dragonite unless it has Nasty Plot. Hell, Cloak Dengo doesn't even beat Water Tera curse Garg with EQ.
Unlike Chi Yu, Chien Pao almost never switched in on Dengo's either, it was mainly there to revenge kill, which a lot of other mon can do against Gholdengo.
Ceruledge, Cinderace, Clodsire, Pult, Garg, Tusk, Gren, Iron Moth, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Moon, Dirge, Ting-Lu, Volcarona. All of these either revenge kill Gholdengo or straight up check it. This is literally half of the OU meta, how did you even come up with that conclusion?
Guys please read the full post it's not just taking it's hits it hitting harder priority is hands down the best counter for this thing which shall I remind you is everywhere in this meta game from bullet Scizor to mach punch belroom not to mention screens is also everywhere limiting it even further. Not to mention stealth rock like not just violent can beat this thing.
Well, if there is no tera, I will agree. Lets see.
That's nice and all but if you would recall I did not just mention those Pokemon taking hits from it inside my post I also mentioned that priority is almost everywhere so as long as bullet punch and mop punch can still kill this thing it's not broken not to mention stealth rocks exist and all your calcs so she empowered not holding heavy duty boots make it even easier to counter. Not to mention hyper offense screen teams are like every these days with grimmsnarl.
I mean I agree it's not broken but I don't think prayer should be you one sole counter LMAO.
Not just that but priority is everywhere and so is stealth rocks so it's definitely okay.
Pinlup is the best dude, just make these things all go into 1 post. You don't need to make so many posts to respond to people. The forum's typeboxes support multiple quotations in a single post. You can see it directly below here.
). Resists for both types are also hard to come by, and the Speed lets it handle Pokemon that could otherwise offensively check it like Valient and co. The combo also makes quick work of the most common threats needed to hold the metagame together, like Great Tusk, Rotom-W, and Gholdengow. The priority argument as it stands feels pretty flimsy as well, given Scizor takes a metric fuckton from Sucker, whether CB, Orb, or SD boosted. Even Boots doesn't exactly bounce off if Scizor gets forced into taking a lot of chip from hazards and stuff. Personally think banning this thing and whatever else is causing metagame trouble now and then revisiting if Tera is retested and banned / restricted. I'm not a gen 9 expert though, this is just from what I've seen from laddering, SPL, and talking to friends.
Anyway, to avoid this being a 1 liner, Chien is pretty busted due to it's insane strength, surprising variety in sets, and Tera giving it even more power while also letting it get around certain weaknesses (ie Bullet Punch and co.
). Resists for both types are also hard to come by, and the Speed lets it handle Pokemon that could otherwise offensively check it like Valient and co. The combo also makes quick work of the most common threats needed to hold the metagame together, like Great Tusk, Rotom-W, and Gholdengow. The priority argument as it stands feels pretty flimsy as well, given Scizor takes a metric fuckton from Sucker, whether CB, Orb, or SD boosted. Even Boots doesn't exactly bounce off if Scizor gets forced into taking a lot of chip from hazards and stuff. Personally think banning this thing and whatever else is causing metagame trouble now and then revisiting if Tera is retested and banned / restricted. I'm not a gen 9 expert though, this is just from what I've seen from laddering, SPL, and talking to friends.
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