Project [NEW] SV OU Office Hours [BACK OPEN FOR QUESTIONS]

[Arcticblast]

hi Finch I'm a big fan, but like the kind you have to turn to max before you can turn it to low.

With how much things like Defog, Boots, and now Gholdengo have impacted the format, do you think OU would ever consider a full ban on entry hazards? How much would the hazard game have to devolve to put a hazard ban on the table?

 

[Heatranator]

Do you believe it would be viable to not run the rotom form's signature moves for their form (i.e. hydro pump for wash rotom and overheat for oven rotom, the main two ones you could use in OU)?

And, if a new hazard was introduced, like for example the steel type stealth rocks from Copperajah's g-max form, and it was much more controversial, would you consider banning that or are hazards fully off the table?

 

[Garance]

I apologize first for the questions, I am just curious but they are probably really dumb.

(This one may be Off Topic sorry) :

First of all, I've noticed more and more changes during the past about old gens, like unbans (Lati Gen4OU) etc... we are also having UUBL + something so interesting, "OU by Techniticity". I was wondering if something similar could be done in actual Gen 9 Uber, because a lot of pokemons are in the tier because of a ban, but not used, and this is really messy when we are looking at the list of Ubers. Because in SV OU, the gen is increadibly weird and we banned like 20 pokemons by far.

I was also wondering what you are thinking about the future of this generation. Because the DLC is coming soon, a lot of things will be unbanned, a lot of pokemons are going to change completely the meta... Do you think we will have finally a stable metagame one day in gen 9 before the end of the gen ?

We are noticing more and more from you a big change in your way of thinking these last years. You are relying more on the community, you are posting more and more on Twitter, talking more and more on the OU Threads, showing more and more your thoughts, you want to be clearly more transparent... but why ? During few years, transparency was not the most important, and know you are clearly showing the "behind". What are the reasons of this change ?

Last but not least, the supermajority threshold of 60% during the suspects test. It's not new, but... it means at some point, minority will lead over the majority. A majority of people wanted an action on Tera or Kingambit Ban, but the minority decided the opposite. Could we see a simple majority for the near future ?

(Oh and, I hope you are still enjoying being a part of the council, that's clearly not that easy with all the trolls on the Smogon threads and on twitter).

 

[Ehmcee]

When's the youtube content coming back :(

 

[Ramplestilskin]

What is your personal philosophy on how OU should look like ?

Let me explain what I mean with this question : we all have a certain "notion" of what OU pokemon should look like and this definition has certainly changed over the years as we today have an UU that is the OU of old gens. Meaning that surely on previous generation, some OU mon right now would have been overbearing if they existed back then. As it has already been done, this already means that previous Uber become playable in current OU, and dropping Uber has been a recurrent joke over the years.
In other words, do you think that in an hypothetical timeline where every single one of Uber Pokemon would drop to OU and then every Pokemon that deserves a ban regarding policies (broken, overcentralizing, unhealthy) starting from Miraidon, Koraidon and so forth would progressively get the ban and there would be enough time to let things settle after each ban and to converge into a balance and enjoyable metagame, would OU look close to what it is today or could it stabilize at a higher general level ?
In case it would be the same OU as today, do you think that is because it would create an eternal overcentralized metagame around HO/Uncheckable sweepers until no more overbearing offensive threat remains, or is there more depth to it ?
In case it could stabilize at a higher general level but it is not what we want OU to look like, what is the invisible barrier that you would be fixing for yourself (like some kind of total BST or whatever) and how has this barrier evolved along the generations ?

I know this is kind of an odd and abstract question and it is difficult to give a precise answer but I just want to know your general feeling. Regarding how we instantly ban a series of mon at the start of each generation because their BS is too high or they are legendaries, I always assumed there is a cap we are not willing to get over.

 

[SandVeil10]

Thank you for your response to my question last week.
I've noticed that Thundurus-Therian has been getting a bit more usage as of late ; what are your thoughts on it at the moment?

 

[woodgoldtwo]

Have you seen the "leaked" list of returning pokemon in DLC 2 and if so what are your thoughts on some of the notable returning pokemon and how do you think they might affect the metagame?

 

[Monky25]

What Pokémon currently banned from OU (as well as other contentious Pokémon right now) would you say is broken by tera and would be balanced without it? Would you say your beliefs line up with that of other qualified players / council? Also, what Pokémon do you think will rise into OU as well as drop into UU this coming tier shift?

 

[Weirdhamster]

What is your stance on the current hazard metagame? With Gliscor banned, it seemed to have cooled down, but are there plans for another ban, or is the hazard metagame fine as is right now?

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Ive always wondered more or less... what is the process of suspecting a pokemon in a past gen. Ive seen it more or less myself at it being tedious asf but what makes it so slow? Like sure there are not as many players but sometimes they take years to happen.

Wdyt is the hardest decision for a council member to make.... idk how to word it so hope it makes sense but council does a lot of stuff but its just smth that ive been curious of.

Dream meta? What is your vision for how the OU meta should look like if everything goes right.

 

[cyclonez_]

How do you and the council decide what Pokemon are "on the radar" when you get ready for a vote? Obviously for things like the Gliscor suspect (or the Sneasler quickban) it's from survey responses, but for example when you all were developing the radar for the first post-DLC1 vote, why was, say, Valiant included while Sneasler not? Obviously with hindsight we know Sneasler ended up being more broken, but was it not good enough for the radar before? What's the process?

Also, as a more fun question, what's your favorite meta ever that's not a standard usage-based tier (or Ubers)? So like an OM, petmod, solomod, etc

 

[Finchinator]

I’ll answer these tomorrow or Monday, by the way. Will keep it open in case anymore come. Thanks!

 

[Biannual Run]

Hey Finch, curious if there is an established plan for right after the next DLC drop? Usually QBs are a little chaotic, so maybe setting a plan like “DLC arrives on the 14th, we will be announcing slates on the three following Fridays and voting on these slates on the following Sundays” could both keep the process more organized and help set expectations among both the council and community.

 

[Finchinator]

When can we be expecting the next survey to drop?

It dropped late last week; results will be fully public during this week.

How much consideration are you actually giving to freeing Darkrai, Finch? I do not think this Pokemon will add anything to the meta aside from yet another fast and strong breaker with limited defensive counterplay, and I believe it would be very unhealthy for the meta and further shift the meta to offensive structures. I would sooner have Urshifu-Rapid Strike in the meta rather than Darkrai since it is slower and actually contributes something defensively to the tier even though I believe both would be bad for the meta.

No, Darkrai will not run Boots 4 Attacks like Vert suggests it will. Sneasler is the only mon in OU with a Boots 4 Attacks set, and that's only 'cause of the synergy of Fake Out with Poison Touch. Darkrai would not be making use of any of its strengths with a Heavy-Duty Boots all-out attacker set.

I think Darkrai is something we should try, but have a quick hook in if we see it is derailing the tier. I don’t mind giving a handful of things a try, but I can see it getting out of hand and I’m not sure there’s a world where it lasts too long. I also think Urshifu (both forms) are pretty wild this generation.

How much have you personally enjoyed SV OU compared to other gens OU?

I’ve enjoyed the tier a lot and I think that, even at low points, we have had lots of metagame progression and room for unique strategies. I like building more than playing probably though.

 

[Finchinator]

With Gliscor’s departure, do you see Garchomp gaining more prominence in OU? Tank sets probably benefit the most from the ban since they now take up the niche of “Spikes setter that punishes you for attempting to wear it down” thanks to Rough Skin and 130 Attack. Offensive sets still seem overshadowed compared to other offensive threats at the moment though, with Bulk Up Great Tusk being a more splashable Ground-type sweeper/wincon and Dragonite being a more consistent option for Dragon-type sweepers. What do you think?

I’d say that Ting Lu is probably a bigger beneficiary, but it could see some more usage. How much more? Not a substantial amount probably. It certainly isn’t close enough to Gliscor to make a substantial difference sadly. The overall pie chart of grounds will see others shifting more I feel.

At what point does the number one mon in the tier stop being great and become broken? Why was it not in the cards for Gliscor to become GSC Snorlax?

Tiering as it modernly exists did not exist during gens like GSC or even ADV, and that’s not to mention that the pool of Pokemon back then was so much more limited.

This also isn’t to mention that the two are functionally so different within the contexts of the metagames and Gliscor’s ban had to do with being broken, not sheer usage at all. The difference is Pokemon that have limited counterplay are broken and a utility Pokemon putting such a strain on building and play fits that definition.

What are some of the unreleased mons you miss in the meta? Which mon do you think would thrive?

Would love for Fini or Bulu to come back, but short of those I think Zeraora would be a unique option that would have a viable place in OU.

And I'm sure you've gone on record regarding this, but what is YOUR opinion on Tera and what should happen to it, maybe not from a councilman position but from a player perspective?

I think I’d support a suspect that includes an outright ban, a Tera blast ban, and no action. But I don’t think we have much time for it yet. I think I’d be in favor of a Tera Blast ban or no action now, but earlier in the generation I supported an outright ban more and could see DLC2 shifting things depending upon the playing out of the metagame. Hope this is the perspective you were looking for and lmk if you want anything more specific of course!

 

[Finchinator]

Finch, I'm not sure if you've visited the stallcord lately, but things there are pretty bleak - does stall have a place in your ideal OU? What do you believe can be done to bring the tier closer to this ideal?

edit: also, favorite Taylor album?

Stall has had a place in OU for months now as we have seen by many creative teams and peaks with it. People in that discord are mad because Gholdengo has not been prioritized, but it has never gotten the support needed. Not everyone can always get what they want at the end of the day.

Depends on my mood, prob Speak Now or 1989 atm

Is the council “scared” (or in nicer terms, uh, less willing to) quickban Pokemon because of the Volcarona incident (imo it was justified cause y’all were trying to balance upcoming tournaments)

edit: nvm then! (Sneasler QBed)

Glad this answered itself, but that was still a learning experience that has been used to assist us in proceeding!

there's a lot of broken stuff getting banned as of recent, largely thanks to a big wave of new mons that are just straight-up statistically better to everything that's come before. mons like valiant, moon, bax, pao, gambit, things of that nature - super-optimized freaks of nature that just eclipse because they're that good at what they do. it's very likely that DLC2 will contain more of these, and that this will be the norm for new pokemon releases.

with that in mind, do you think there's a breaking point at which the philosophy of OU would have to shift on what constitutes "too strong" for the tier? is there a mon you'd consider to be the "maximum strength" line in current gen OU? (i refer to "strength" here in terms of power levels, ignoring obviously stupid stuff like shaymin-sky)

It is hard to give a specific Pokemon, but I view things like Iron Valiant or Zamazenta-Hero as examples of very strong Pokemon with multiple options that do not break the tier, but do require specific attention in teambuilding if that helps. I think more bans is just a result of Tera and power creep, and that may be the natural reality and identity of this generation if people prefer that.

 

[Finchinator]

What are your thoughts on the inevitable return of blaziken and serperior? I know serperior has always had issues with coverage and blaziken has always had severe 4mss and got walled hard by the bulky waters, but blaziken to me feels like its just going to be chi-yu/ogerpon-hearthstone v2.0, but stronger thanks to tera and much harder to revenge kill thanks to speed boost and the fact that most of the bulky waters got nerfed hard this gen too, oh and serperior just nukes everything with its multiple viable tera sets. Is there any preemptive talk right now in the council about whether or not a vote will need to be held to address these two in particular before the dlc2 drops in December? If so what are your thoughts on these two finch?

Both seem like radar candidates with Tera, but neither will be banned before DLC2 -- it would be unprecedented to ban something before we even know everything about it in this generation without it being Uber the prior generation (or ever in the case of Serperior). I think we need to take a step back and let it play out, but be ready to be aggressive once release day comes for both of these and some others. Best ot keep an openmind for the time being I would say!

 

[Finchinator]

Will get to the rest tomorrow night, thanks!

 

[Finchinator]

hi Finch I'm a big fan, but like the kind you have to turn to max before you can turn it to low.

With how much things like Defog, Boots, and now Gholdengo have impacted the format, do you think OU would ever consider a full ban on entry hazards? How much would the hazard game have to devolve to put a hazard ban on the table?

No, I don’t think it’s likely to be considered and I generally don’t think hazards are broken. I think Boots and Defog can be great, practical checks to their presence much like certain Pokemon can be good options into other Pokemon that are controversial within our metagame.

I do not think anyone can really argue Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes have a bad impact on our metagame to the extent that they would be banworthy and while some people complained about Sticky Webs, even those days are mostly in our rearview mirror.

Spikes have been controversial with greater distribution and less ways to disrupt their placement, which has created a major philosophy shift in terms of their tiering status for some. I can see why people would point to them as an issue, but I don’t think we are at the point that they are banworthy as a move. I think it is possible to get there, but realistically Gholdengo would need a look first and I also think with different move distribution and metagame factors coming up with DLC2, this whole conversation may be moot. It’s a fair question though and I appreciate you asking.

 

[Finchinator]

Do you believe it would be viable to not run the rotom form's signature moves for their form (i.e. hydro pump for wash rotom and overheat for oven rotom, the main two ones you could use in OU)?

And, if a new hazard was introduced, like for example the steel type stealth rocks from Copperajah's g-max form, and it was much more controversial, would you consider banning that or are hazards fully off the table?

There are instances in prior generations where RotomW forgoes Hydro Pump to focus on survivability, pivoting, and status, so it’s not unheard of. I think it’s a harder sell in this generation with the dominance of certain Ground types and lack of Hidden Power. A unique niche for it right now, for example, is Tera Ghost or Steel stopping STABs from Ursaluna thanks to levitate, but without Hydro Pump, it’s not like it can touch Ursaluna anyway.

Not going to see fully off the table, but very likely off the table unless the concept shifts notably.

 

[Finchinator]

I apologize first for the questions, I am just curious but they are probably really dumb.

First of all, I've noticed more and more changes during the past about old gens, like unbans (Lati Gen4OU) etc... we are also having UUBL + something so interesting, "OU by Techniticity". I was wondering if something similar could be done in actual Gen 9 Uber, because a lot of pokemons are in the tier because of a ban, but not used, and this is really messy when we are looking at the list of Ubers. Because in SV OU, the gen is increadibly weird and we banned like 20 pokemons by far.

I mean you’re comparing apples and oranges. Ubers isn’t a usage based tier so much as it is just a banlist that’s provided with playable conditions. UUBL isn’t a tier and OU by technicality is a vastly different and circumstance dependent identification mechanism. It’s not really up to me, but I think the status quo should be maintained.

I was also wondering what you are thinking about the future of this generation. Because the DLC is coming soon, a lot of things will be unbanned, a lot of pokemons are going to change completely the meta... Do you think we will have finally a stable metagame one day in gen 9 before the end of the gen ?

I think we have had fine metagames so far, but we will have by far our best metagame once we have more time and maneuverability. DLC2’s long haul projections surpass those of anything prior without a doubt.

We are noticing more and more from you a big change in your way of thinking these last years. You are relying more on the community, you are posting more and more on Twitter, talking more and more on the OU Threads, showing more and more your thoughts, you want to be clearly more transparent... but why ? During few years, transparency was not the most important, and know you are clearly showing the "behind". What are the reasons of this change ?

I was not tier leader until last generation; when I took over, I emphasized communication and transparency. This was partially promoted by my personal philosophical differences with my predecessors and partially promoted by widespread complaints about the less directly active approach we had to tiering all the way back during SM.

Surveys and championing data as opposed to closed-door sentiment was the wave last generation. This has continued to grow this generation, but I have taken it further by giving OU more of a face on social media and public outlets. I have began working with narrative control and trying to become more relatable. It’s very fun for me, to be honest.

Last but not least, the supermajority threshold of 60% during the suspects test. It's not new, but... it means at some point, minority will lead over the majority. A majority of people wanted an action on Tera or Kingambit Ban, but the minority decided the opposite. Could we see a simple majority for the near future ?

Unlikely. The status quo should mandate a larger amount of support to overturn in our flagship metagame. People are naturally promoted to find change when they feel any dissatisfaction, but we don’t want the first thing to always be The Change if it’s not truly appropriate. I feel it’s a calculated process design.

(Oh and, I hope you are still enjoying being a part of the council, that's clearly not that easy with all the trolls on the Smogon threads and on twitter).

I love my time on here and I am happier than ever in general. I am beyond fortunate to be experiencing what I am.

 

[Finchinator]

When's the youtube content coming back :(

Maybe soon as I begin working from home for at least a couple of months soon, but it’s hard given how busy I am. Besides on here, I work full time and have family/relationship matters to attend to. YouTube just isn’t a priority, but it is on my mind still.

What is your personal philosophy on how OU should look like ?

Let me explain what I mean with this question : we all have a certain "notion" of what OU pokemon should look like and this definition has certainly changed over the years as we today have an UU that is the OU of old gens. Meaning that surely on previous generation, some OU mon right now would have been overbearing if they existed back then. As it has already been done, this already means that previous Uber become playable in current OU, and dropping Uber has been a recurrent joke over the years.
In other words, do you think that in an hypothetical timeline where every single one of Uber Pokemon would drop to OU and then every Pokemon that deserves a ban regarding policies (broken, overcentralizing, unhealthy) starting from Miraidon, Koraidon and so forth would progressively get the ban and there would be enough time to let things settle after each ban and to converge into a balance and enjoyable metagame, would OU look close to what it is today or could it stabilize at a higher general level ?
In case it would be the same OU as today, do you think that is because it would create an eternal overcentralized metagame around HO/Uncheckable sweepers until no more overbearing offensive threat remains, or is there more depth to it ?
In case it could stabilize at a higher general level but it is not what we want OU to look like, what is the invisible barrier that you would be fixing for yourself (like some kind of total BST or whatever) and how has this barrier evolved along the generations ?

I know this is kind of an odd and abstract question and it is difficult to give a precise answer but I just want to know your general feeling. Regarding how we instantly ban a series of mon at the start of each generation because their BS is too high or they are legendaries, I always assumed there is a cap we are not willing to get over.

It’s a good question and I would truly need more time to dissect it and maybe even project it through a series of through experiments, but to give a general answer: I think that starting from scratch would be detrimental and we would end with close to the same tier as now, but delayed by many, many months.

A generation typically is only a few years and we only have time for so much to be put into the final edition of any metagame because the first year or so is filled with Home, DLC, etc periods that are not truly permanent. These periods alone would never ever balance with a void banlist to start and then the later, permanent period would just be filled with people requesting such aggressive tiering action that it may both exhaust past the manpower we have to handle tiering requests and physically exhaust the council as well tbh.

Yes, it is possible and I think even likely 1-2 Pokemon could end up with sticking potential in both this and prior generations. Yes, it could lead to a vastly different ripple effect that creates a timeline I couldn’t even speculate on. But more doesn’t always mean better and different doesn’t always mean better either.

I don’t feel I really adequately answered this and I think a rightful answer would take a deeper dive and citing some precedent and PR threads though if you want me to be honest. If you have specific sub-questions, feel free to ask during the upcoming week. Hope this at least hit some things.

 

[Finchinator]

Thank you for your response to my question last week.
I've noticed that Thundurus-Therian has been getting a bit more usage as of late ; what are your thoughts on it at the moment?

Limited applications, but effective and strong when used optimally. Specs with Tera Blast Flying works well on center-meta archetypes like balance or bulky-offense when paired with Cinderace, Tusk, or even Hatterene. Boots Weather Ball NP works delightfully on Rain, too. These are just kind of the full extent of where it can be used and these two specific styles don’t fit with a wide array of personnel, so you can only do so much. But yes, it can be a potent option.

Have you seen the "leaked" list of returning pokemon in DLC 2 and if so what are your thoughts on some of the notable returning pokemon and how do you think they might affect the metagame?

I’ve heard about Blaziken and Serperior, which are sure to be huge movers in the metagame with Tera. But I have been focused largely on the present rather than the future, so I cannot comment much beyond that at this moment.

 

[Finchinator]

What Pokémon currently banned from OU (as well as other contentious Pokémon right now) would you say is broken by tera and would be balanced without it? Would you say your beliefs line up with that of other qualified players / council? Also, what Pokémon do you think will rise into OU as well as drop into UU this coming tier shift?

Espathra, Regieleki, Sneasler, and Volcarona would all likely remain unbanned if not for Tera. Annihilape, Urshifu, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Magearna, and Darkrai would all deserev discussions and closer examinations, too.

I would hope so, but cannot say I have personally checked on this specifically.

I am hoping Amoonguss, Scizor, Skeledirge, and Volcanion rise while Alomomola, drops.

What is your stance on the current hazard metagame? With Gliscor banned, it seemed to have cooled down, but are there plans for another ban, or is the hazard metagame fine as is right now?

I think the hazard metagame issue is overblown, but it does stress teambuilding and there are a lot of entitled players out there it feels like. I will say that fitting both hazards on Lu or fitting Samurott-H onto a team is not always super easy, so that is a natural assist here as well. I do not think another ban is directly needed, but Gholdengo's overall presence absolutely requires examination.

Ive always wondered more or less... what is the process of suspecting a pokemon in a past gen. Ive seen it more or less myself at it being tedious asf but what makes it so slow? Like sure there are not as many players but sometimes they take years to happen.

We have wayyyyy fewer games in a past generation, so the bar to suspect and the time it takes both shift accordingly. A ban could take years to be acclimatd to at that pace when it would just be weeks for a current generation, for example. Also, ladders are not as active, meaning large samples from tournaments are frequently used from reqs, which is a whole other topic in it of itself and can take time.

Wdyt is the hardest decision for a council member to make.... idk how to word it so hope it makes sense but council does a lot of stuff but its just smth that ive been curious of.

Deciding on quickbans and sequencing in early metagames post-release, always the hardest imo.

Dream meta? What is your vision for how the OU meta should look like if everything goes right.

Just wish we had a few more balanced pivots with longevity and hazard removers to keep this metagame leveled out, we are not super duper far away at least now.

How do you and the council decide what Pokemon are "on the radar" when you get ready for a vote? Obviously for things like the Gliscor suspect (or the Sneasler quickban) it's from survey responses, but for example when you all were developing the radar for the first post-DLC1 vote, why was, say, Valiant included while Sneasler not? Obviously with hindsight we know Sneasler ended up being more broken, but was it not good enough for the radar before? What's the process?

It is generally everything anyone would consider voting ban on if it were to be voted on -- even if something would only get one vote for the status quo to change, it is enough to give a basic inclusion.

Sneasler only picked up and was seen as broken as Grassy Terrain teams picked up, so using that radar is not really fair or comparable I feel -- we can only tier the current metagme after all, not the future or past.

Anyway, all ten of us discuss it internally and while most inclusions are easily spotted by me, I ask around for other possible additions to supplement the list and we always lean towards being extra inclusive to address any and all concerns. Then, we react accordingly from there.

Also, as a more fun question, what's your favorite meta ever that's not a standard usage-based tier (or Ubers)? So like an OM, petmod, solomod, etc

STABmons is a personal favorite tbh

 

[Finchinator]

Hey Finch, curious if there is an established plan for right after the next DLC drop? Usually QBs are a little chaotic, so maybe setting a plan like “DLC arrives on the 14th, we will be announcing slates on the three following Fridays and voting on these slates on the following Sundays” could both keep the process more organized and help set expectations among both the council and community.

I am not yet in a position to announce anything until we conclude our process on the current format and see more confirmed info on the future release -- now it is too tentative. Hopefully if you stop by in a week or two, we will know more and I will be more ready to provide transparency on this one. Sorry for the lame answer right now.