Project [NEW] SV OU Office Hours [BACK OPEN FOR QUESTIONS]

[NotVeryCake]

What do you think the "perfect" SV meta would look like? Is Tera a part of said "perfect" meta? What is the power balance between the different playstyles ranging from hyper-offense to stall? What does the hazard meta look like? Do you ever expect to reach this "perfect" meta for SV?

 

[Duck Chris]

To what degree is "stale" compatible with "healthy"? Many old metas like BW and SS have at some point been considered very stale but does that mean they need tiering action?

Also thoughts on testing Lugia if it's ever released (or even in ss)

 

[leoperi99]

Do you think a complex ban/suspect may happen on Sv OU after DLC2 comes out?

 

[ANinjaDude]

What is your opinion on Focus Sash Marshadow

 

[Finchinator]

Thanks for everyone's questions! Locking this now as I respond to everyone.

This will be opened again on Monday or Tuesday for the next week of inquiries.

 

[Finchinator]

What are your thoughts on rain in this meta? Things like favored rain sweepers or particular backbones for the offense to fall back on can go into this answer.

My issue with Rain is that typically it is employed as an anti-offense archetype. Right now, it really struggles into some offensive staples like Rillaboom (and Rillaboom teams as an extension of this as Sneasler can do well) and Tera Normal Dragonite. Even Aurora Veil teams with Hail can minimize the effect Rain can have.

I think that dedicated Rain teams are less effective now than one would like, but I do think things you would see in Rain like Ogerpon-Wellspring, Zapdos/Thundurus-T, and Greninja can function well standalone. My main issue is Pelipper is a very limited slot, Basculegion is very hit-or-miss, and you are so condensed defensively that you have to commit to hard offense on Rain teams despite not having all six slots to dedicate pressure and metagame coverage.

What is the best counterplay to webs in your opinion?

Unironically running a ton of Pokemon either immune, with Heavy Duty Boots, or that do not mind Sticky Webs. I have teams with 4-5 immune and 1-2 Pokemon that are slow to begin with and these teams tend to be playing up 6-5 or 6-5.5 from the jump, which is a huge benefit to them.

Yes, the "sexy" picks are things like Cinderace, Heavy Duty Boots Great Tusk with Rapid Spin, or Hatterene. Cinderace I will give you, but I find structures with it to be limited to a degree. Tusk is not a shoe-in though as it has to time things well vs Ribombee and Air Balloon Gholdengo without allowing too many free turns to Manaphy. Same for Hatterene: it is 3HKO'd by Ribombee and can potentially be abusd by teammates if the Webs team is well-constructed. I actually like Hatterene vs Spikes way more than Webs because of this.

Balance or bulky-o with hazard minimizing tactics like Boots spam is a great pick, opposing offense with Cinderace or a ton of priority can be well-off, and then you just have defensive teams that do not really care as well potentially.

Are we going to have more suspects for the DLC 1 metagame after the Gliscor test has concluded?

Answered above, but to reiterate: we intend to come back in a week once the metagame is settled from such a huge ban and potentially have a survey. We are running up against it timeline wise with DLC2, but I am consistent in saying we will do the best we can for this metagame.

 

[Finchinator]

Do you think we’ll see Garganacl rise to OU again? Salt Cure and immunity to Status aliments + a pseudo-Ghost resist are still really powerful tools. It seems like it’s on a steady rise and could skyrocket if Gliscor was to be banned.

Before the end of the generation, yes. I think that is has a place as an OU Pokemon now and people just need to be willing to explore with it. I also think a bigger help would be a greater amount of hazard removals or if Gholdengo were to ever be banned.

Odds are that Garganacl will be a bit cyclical as it can be limited by Magic Guard distribution, Knock Off distribution and general item displacement mechanisms, and hazard consisency, but there will be a point in the metagame where these things are less prevelant and Garganacl's unique defensive niche will help. A lot also depends on the status of Tera admiteddly though.

if a tiering survey has a result that is for ex. sneasler 4.25 from casuals but has a 1.5 result from qualifed (lets assume that is possible) whose voice is more likely to be the one considered in the tiering?

Always qualified. General population is more a reference point than it is a determining factor. Council opinion factors in a fair bit, too, but qualified data is the way to go here.

In a case of gholdengo vs gliscor what made the decision of gliscor first despite the fact that gholdengo was the main reason people were reciting?

Was Gholdengo the main reason people were reciting or was that just the posting cycle for those few days? Gliscor has been discussed a ton since release, including at length for weeks prior while Gholdengo was not. I personally was in favor of suspecting both, but I guarantee you more people posted about Gliscor in aggregate while I also guarantee you more people posted about Gholdengo within that 3-5 day stretch. Gholdengo is a good suspect candidate for sure, but Gliscor cleared it beyond the margin of error and had similar council support, so we moved that way.

With gliscor in the meta what are common lando-t sets? Where would it fit where a gliscor would nt be able to and where you would like to have a landorus-therian. Ofc i know its viable but im just curious where one would slot it over the spike stacking progress maker gliscor

People still used bulky pivot as it can pull off Earth Power in a Grassy Terrain metagame, pull-off Intimidate shenanigans, and even opt for things like Grass Knot or Fling + Light Ball to differentiate itself. I would say it was plenty viable as a pivot on bulky-offense, but admiteddly limited.

Do you expect for the tera suspect test, post release of DLC 2, to follow the same timing as the first suspect test and conclude prior to the start of SPL?

(I know this may be a little premature and can save it for a later date if more appropriate)

I do not have an answer because I do not have an agenda. If the support is there, it will be a priority as it is a very important topic. Do I think the support for an immediate suspect will be there? Probably not, but I am keeping an open-mind and expect something to happen eventually if the people who want it come out and participate.

 

[Finchinator]

who do you think will drop to ou when the dlc comes out?

Gliscor, Volcarona, Zamazenta-Crowned, and Roaring Moon will all have my support. Darkrai is a close one that I am willing to discuss more, too. I can see myself discussing the Urshifu forms even (or Bax I suppose). I think it is best we are inclusive here, but some things are also common sense.

What is your opinion on pokemon in lower tiers?

Plenty are viable. Feel free to ask about specific ones next week if you would like, but I seldom look at tiering placement when building teams and playing -- I just go with what I think is best as general usage does not reflect everything always. Sometimes it is a good case study statistic and can represent the tier, but sometimes people miss the mark as well or are not fully informed about niches things have on the margins.

Would you prioritize a stable or fun metagame? I remember that not too long ago Gen6 UU players banned slurpuff, not because it was broken within the tier, but because it limited teambuilding a lot to include counters specificly to it.

Limiting teambuilding to a small handful of checks/counters is being broken. By definition, one of the symptoms of something banworthy via being broken is not having a sufficient pool of checks/counters, which limits teambuilding options both for handling it and because limited pools lead to limited cores/partners and less team variety overall. Slurpuff in XY UU is an example of something broken being banned given this (and I was around then, so I recall this like many other similar examples).

With this in mind. we focus primarily on a stable and balanced metagame that the more skillful players can thrive in, but it is never perfect of course.

Would OU follow a similar path with, say, Sneasler? Sneasler is really good on it's own, yet dire claw isn't what you could call a fan favourite move

Sneasler itself I discussed here and how it is arguably broken regardless of Dire Claw. We have no intent to focus on the move right now given that nothing else gets it, but we could see Sneasler action potentially.

And a sillier question. Now that Garchomp has dropped from OU, will it continue to be your pfp? Probably you won't answer this as is not metagame related but, I am kinda curious lol

Yes, it is my favorite Pokemon.

 

[Finchinator]

What good in your opinion would it make to host another Suspect after Gliscor, knowing that the opinion in the surveys won't be forged after a while if Glisc is banned, and would therefore not reflect the full picture ?

We are likely waiting a week for things to settle after the suspect before we survey again, so I hope that helps.

Adding to that, woudln't the suspected Mon just get unbanned after DLC 2 ?

No, let's timeline:

• Wait a week to let metagam settle post-Gliscor
• Survey in a week (18th-21st of November)
• Suspect using our current faster suspects (22nd of November - 1st of December for reqs, 2nd-3rd of December for vote)

Still ten days before DLC after the suspect ends.

Does this mean we will have another suspect? No clue. Could be a quickban if there's overwhelming support for something or nothing if there is not. We do not have an agenda, but anything is possible.

I've heard you talk in length about unbanning/restesting Mon for DLC 2, but if any Mon in the current banlist deserves a retest in the opinion of the council, none of those are less strong/broken than let's say, a Gholdengo for example, and if we unbanned the likes of Urshifu-RS/Volcarona/Roaring Moon/I don't know what you have in mind, I think any Mon being suspected and maybe banned after Gliscor would also deserve a retest, making them virtually banned for only a few days, one week at best.

I would want anything we ban after now, Gliscor, and Roaring Moon to all start OU after DLC2. But we are playing the current metagame on ladder, in tournaments, and so on, so we will continue to be committed to making it better until we move on to the next metagame, even if bans will reset.

Recently, I have seen the surge in webs teams. Ribombee offers no cheeky counterplay along with Ghold on webs teams that continue to put pressure on both new and experienced players alike. What do you think can be done to counter this type of synergy outside of centralised cores/complex or simple hazard control methods?

I do not think Sticky Webs teams are broken or particularly close to it. I think there are a lot of ways to combat them and, even without those, it can be outplayed like normal offenses in a lot of ways. I touched on how to address Sticky Web teams here.

why, do you think, is the reason that garganacl has committed multiple hate crimes? is he stupid? is he salty for being mid now?
thoughts on garganacl? why is he so spiteful. be careful finchinerd he will come for you next

Spikes, Knock Off, and Magic Guard: the holy trinity of Garganacl fuckers.

Will respond to the rest tomorrow. Goodnight, and thanks for the questions!

 

[Finchinator]

any chance giratina origin can get tested in ou when dlc2 comes out?

I can see it getting a chance, but it does not feel like a priority right now.

Is Tera only going to be subject to just one suspect after DLC2 or could it potentially end up with even more than just two suspects?

Anything is an option. No test, one big test, multiple tests, and so on. We have no agenda and intend to focus on the community's opinion moving forward.

Whats your stance on volcarona post dlc?

It should start in OU again.

Do you think spikes might be problematic in the current metagame?

Somewhat, yes, but I think there are bigger issues and the current ban of Gliscor helps a lot.

I've seen a decent number of people saying that in the current meta, some playstyles (like Hyper Offense and Hazard Stack) are vastly superior to others (such as Bulky Offense and Stall), to the point where they feel like the latter playstyles don't seem to be worth running at the moment.

That made me think : is it inherently wrong that in a given meta, some general team structures are significantly less effective than others, in your opinion?

No, but a balanced metagame tends to have more validity for each style. I do not fully agree with your classifications though as I think spikes / hazards fit as a focal point on balance and bulky-offense with a variety of applications and I think offense and hyper offense take many forms. I do not find the current metagame to be ideal, but I do find it to be improving and welcoming.

Also, to what extent does the council think that, broadly speaking, tiering action should result in an overall greater number of viable playstyles?

I don't really have a solid opinion regarding these two questions, but I was interested in knowing what you think.

It is something we keep in mind, yes. If there is an issue with a Pokemon preventing a style from being used, surely there is a lot (more) to it.

 

[Finchinator]

First off, thank you for trying this out. I am excited to see how the format goes.

I guess my big question is what should players expect during DLC2? I know you mentioned that the council (or at least you, idr) was in favor of a partial reset. What would that entail? What concepts or mons would be on the council’s radar for a drop at the start/during dlc2?

I think a lot will be case-by-case, but I would expect at least a few, if not many, things returning to OU. I personally would be in favor of opening the floodgates to Volcarons and the last few suspect targets as well as a few current Ubers. Nothing is set yet as we do not know what is coming back officially yet.

How does gen 9's general power level compare to gen 8, taking into account of offensive Teras? To my eyes, there's more pokemon with crazy high offensive stats—albeit no beast boosters— allowed in OU now, but tera providing a further 50% boost to stab seems to push this over the edge at times with STAB teras making switching a less ideal option, even for pokemon that 1/2 resist those STAB attacks. Also, I feel like stall and hyperoffense are having a good time in gen 9, with balance drawing a shorter straw in terms of viability (not as bad as sand tho LMAO), though I wonder if you agree with that sentiment.

Power creep is at an all-time high and I tend to think this lends itself to offense being better than last generation, but back then balance and offense were equal while now we see a slight edge to offense probably. I do not think stall is good on the other end of the extreme though, and I think it has mainly been limited and championed by a smaller group of people than prior times. It is viable though.

If the 19th Tera Type ends up being broken, would it be possible to have a suspect exclusively for the 19th?

Unlikely, but it is something that would mandate a Policy Review thread and deeper discussion for the sake of coming up with the best resolution.

 

[Finchinator]

what are your opinions on the Teraless Meta from the No Tera OU tour

I hardly followed. I am going to be honest in saying I do not really care about any OUs that mirror our current format (or close to mirror it), but drop Tera. It is not really natural at all as a No Tera metagame would develop so differently and would have so many changes that it is just not worth putting too much stock into. In general, these experiments are very hard to have be worthwhile.

What's your personal and the council's general opinion on kokoloko-ing the tier come DLC2, either at release date or at a later time?

It has been discussed at length and while it is not vehemently opposed right now, I do not think the support is there and I do not think it jives as cleanly with our current rapid approach and survey system.

What's the biggest headache you've faced in trying to ensure the Meta Game develops in a healthy way? In a way, hardships that were either unexpected or foresaw but unprepared for adequately.

Tera in general has been the biggest controversial topic in the history of Smogon I think, but also dealing with things like Sneasler/cheese Pokemon that do not add much, but straddle some lines and fit awkwardly into traditional definitions I would say.

 

[Finchinator]

What do you truly think should happen to Tera when its suspect comes around DLC2 and how do you want to tackle the methodology of the suspect?

I think there should be a suspect that decides between banning Tera outright, banning Tera Blast, and doing nothing. I do not think Team Preview does anything -- it may even make it worse, but obviously that may be too popular to discount, so we will see. Good question.

 

[Finchinator]

What do you think the "perfect" SV meta would look like? Is Tera a part of said "perfect" meta? What is the power balance between the different playstyles ranging from hyper-offense to stall? What does the hazard meta look like? Do you ever expect to reach this "perfect" meta for SV?

I think Tera adds to the level of strategy, but is also not perfectly competitive, so it can be a part of it, but also could realistically not. I think the perfect metagame probably lacks Gholdengo + Sneasler and then has some months further of process/settling. I expect conditions that are more optimal to come with DLC2 as a new release is no longer looming overhead.

To what degree is "stale" compatible with "healthy"? Many old metas like BW and SS have at some point been considered very stale but does that mean they need tiering action?

Also thoughts on testing Lugia if it's ever released (or even in ss)

I think there is a little correlation, but I also disagree -- neither of these metagames I find stale and BW has evolved a lot for an old generation.

I do not think Lugia retest is in the cards right now. It never dies tbh.

Do you think a complex ban/suspect may happen on Sv OU after DLC2 comes out?

I do not see any complex bans happening, but suspects are likely to continue when appropriate.

Do you think Terastallization glues OU together? As in threats that would otherwise be too difficult to check defensively are more manageable because of Tera

I think it both helps and hurts, but glue is definitely one way to describe it and defensive applications.

What is your opinion on Focus Sash Marshadow

No opinion.

 

[Finchinator]

Thanks to everyone for asking questions! I am re-opening this thread to questions over the next few days as part of the second week -- feel free to ask about current SV OU, the Gliscor ban, the future of SV OU, or anything else metagame/tiering related.

 

[awyp]

When can we be expecting the next survey to drop?

 

[Avira]

When can we be expecting the next survey to drop?

We are likely waiting a week for things to settle after the suspect before we survey again, so I hope that helps.

No, let's timeline:

• Wait a week to let metagam settle post-Gliscor
• Survey in a week (18th-21st of November)

How much consideration are you actually giving to freeing Darkrai, Finch? I do not think this Pokemon will add anything to the meta aside from yet another fast and strong breaker with limited defensive counterplay, and I believe it would be very unhealthy for the meta and further shift the meta to offensive structures. I would sooner have Urshifu-Rapid Strike in the meta rather than Darkrai since it is slower and actually contributes something defensively to the tier even though I believe both would be bad for the meta.

No, Darkrai will not run Boots 4 Attacks like Vert suggests it will. Sneasler is the only mon in OU with a Boots 4 Attacks set, and that's only 'cause of the synergy of Fake Out with Poison Touch. Darkrai would not be making use of any of its strengths with a Heavy-Duty Boots all-out attacker set.

 

[veti]

How much have you personally enjoyed SV OU compared to other gens OU?

 

[SDK03]

With Gliscor’s departure, do you see Garchomp gaining more prominence in OU? Tank sets probably benefit the most from the ban since they now take up the niche of “Spikes setter that punishes you for attempting to wear it down” thanks to Rough Skin and 130 Attack. Offensive sets still seem overshadowed compared to other offensive threats at the moment though, with Bulk Up Great Tusk being a more splashable Ground-type sweeper/wincon and Dragonite being a more consistent option for Dragon-type sweepers. What do you think?

 

[arnimacarni]

At what point does the number one mon in the tier stop being great and become broken? Why was it not in the cards for Gliscor to become GSC Snorlax?

What are some of the unreleased mons you miss in the meta? Which mon do you think would thrive?

And I'm sure you've gone on record regarding this, but what is YOUR opinion on Tera and what should happen to it, maybe not from a councilman position but from a player perspective?

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Finch, I'm not sure if you've visited the stallcord lately, but things there are pretty bleak - does stall have a place in your ideal OU? What do you believe can be done to bring the tier closer to this ideal?

edit: also, favorite Taylor album?

 

[Cobalt Pink]

When can we be expecting the next survey to drop?

Didnt finch answer this in the beginning of post 35 in his timeline section?

 

[skippergamez]

Is the council “scared” (or in nicer terms, uh, less willing to) quickban Pokemon because of the Volcarona incident (imo it was justified cause y’all were trying to balance upcoming tournaments)

edit: nvm then! (Sneasler QBed)

 

[ninth]

there's a lot of broken stuff getting banned as of recent, largely thanks to a big wave of new mons that are just straight-up statistically better to everything that's come before. mons like valiant, moon, bax, pao, gambit, things of that nature - super-optimized freaks of nature that just eclipse because they're that good at what they do. it's very likely that DLC2 will contain more of these, and that this will be the norm for new pokemon releases.

with that in mind, do you think there's a breaking point at which the philosophy of OU would have to shift on what constitutes "too strong" for the tier? is there a mon you'd consider to be the "maximum strength" line in current gen OU? (i refer to "strength" here in terms of power levels, ignoring obviously stupid stuff like shaymin-sky)

 

[Hykalia]

What are your thoughts on the inevitable return of blaziken and serperior? I know serperior has always had issues with coverage and blaziken has always had severe 4mss and got walled hard by the bulky waters, but blaziken to me feels like its just going to be chi-yu/ogerpon-hearthstone v2.0, but stronger thanks to tera and much harder to revenge kill thanks to speed boost and the fact that most of the bulky waters got nerfed hard this gen too, oh and serperior just nukes everything with its multiple viable tera sets. Is there any preemptive talk right now in the council about whether or not a vote will need to be held to address these two in particular before the dlc2 drops in December? If so what are your thoughts on these two finch?