Resource National Dex Metagame Discussion v2

[jorm201]

Toxic basically means it's not dead weight every time it can't trap a mon, and also not setup bait for every mon that beats it. I agree Soak is optional, but it provides utility in poisoning Pokemon that otherwise are immune to it. There are plenty of other Pokemon that can check Gliscor, and the rest aren't bait for Stallbreaker Gliscor with Taunt. While Sub is a valid concern, stall in general has issues with Sub, and Toxic provides far too much utility too more matchups than just stall V stall. I'd be more worried about Taunt, as that just shuts Pyuk down whatever funny set you've thought of.

Actually, boosted defences are exactly what it needs to reliably PP stall, see Goth in Ubers. It doesn't have that, which makes it more likely to drop to crit+standard hit.

Leppa does not give you Leftovers. Leftovers are kinda good. Also all good stall teams have a cleric anyway.

No, it doesn't. It simply maximises the stall matchup at the expense of everything else. eg: a well played Pyuk should be a big threat to Offense, since it ignores their setup attempts. But without Toxic to put sweepers and hazard setters on a timer, Pyuk is just setup bait ironically enough,as it just sits there watching Spikes go up or its check getting free setup turns.

Yeah but what if not every opponent I face uses stall. Also this is flatly untrue because stall players can use Taunt too.

Interesting you mention Keldeo because when it's seen in OU it always has Taunt AND Sub for Toxapex. You also didn't mention Stored Power users, who kinda run the metagame at the moment. Having Toxic at least lets you put them on a timer (and having Soak lets you do it to Magearna).
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyukumuku: 144-171 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyukumuku: 144-171 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Pyukumuku: 142-168 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Pyukumuku: 142-168 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO
It's things like this why you run Leftovers btw. Lefties let Pyuk check more things, which is more useful than maximising the stall mirror (and standard trapper Pyku with Soak or Spite does great against stall already).

Yes, your opponent had no measures for the stall mirror and you did. I could go into detail about the many problems the team you have there has, but I'll just say you probably should just stick with standard Pyuk to be able to damage things. Hope this clears things up.

I really appreciate your time responding and providing all those calcs.

I think I should clarify this is for gen7 OU meta. I'm not familiar with Keldeo's 8th gen sets. I'm posting in all forums because no one is responding to me. Sorry if this is the incorrect spot.

It's not a "funny set". What do I have to do to prove it works? I'm currently rated at 1730 gen7 OU. Teams are not prepared for it. It takes care of a lot of set up sweepers.

Which common stall mon has taunt? The only one I can think of is Gliscor.

 

[Jordy]

Couldn’t care less about your gen 7 Pyukumuku crusade. This is greatly derailing the thread and I’ll ask you to please stop posting here. This is not the SM OU Discussion Thread.

 

[Optify]

I would like to talk a little bit about a mon I believe is broken in the current National Dex metagame; Mega Mawile.

Since the start of national dex mega mawile has always been a gigantic threat, due to its sky high attack combined with strong priority in sucker punch. Recently I started thinking about mawile mega and the national dex metagame as a whole, and found out that mawile has no defensive counterplay, yes 0.

Stupid Mawile calcs

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 213-251 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then you just click play rough

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 148-174 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

Yes that is a max physdef toxapex taking 50 from a resisted move.

Even the seemingly safe heatran drops to 4a sets

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 294-348 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

or

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 190-224 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

Heatran's leftovers aren't recovering these off

Scizor?

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Scizor-Mega: 360-428 (104.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

cooked.

Now let's talk about mawiles offensive counterplay, this consists of faster mons that can resist sucker punch / have the bulk to eat one. This consists of tapu koko, gliscor, ash greninja, and magearna. Theres one problem, these are all prone to getting worn down by stealth rock / spikes, gliscor is the one exception. But theres another issue with gliscor in the calcs below.

Offensive "counterplay" calcs

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 238-280 (67.6 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

As you can see here, gliscor can tank a sucker punch and beat it with earthquake, right?

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 170-204 (64.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nope. Mawile can simply click play rough at +2 and win the 1v1.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 198-234 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 165-194 (58.7 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

koko works fine as you can see, but you need to be weary of stealth rock chip.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 238-282 (79 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Magearna can also lose to fire fang 4a.

As you can see by these calcs, through 4a and swords dance sets, mawile has no defensive counterplay, and offensive counterplay consists of predicting sucker punch. This puts an unhealthy amount of strain on the teambuilder. Mawile is a mon that is hard to use, but in the hands of a good player is absolutely lethal, which is why it has seen so much usage in the national dex world cup.

 

[Haunter7]

Hmm tbh before seeing your post I wouldn't even have considered MMawile among the suspect candidates, I've played quite a lot of gen 7 OU and then nat dex with a couple of different teams and the poke never seemed like too much to handle for any of them (and I never rly included it in my teambuilding plans as a specific threat to counter tbh), personally I usually prefer to see Mawile in the opposing team than most of the other possible megas. Might have happened once or twice but I don't rly recall ever getting outright swept by Mawile, I've also used the poke myself a fair bit (tho opted for the 4a variant, I had tried the SD one at first but the former proved more consistent eventually, so my perspective is a bit biased towards the 4a set ngl) and while it can open some holes if u get the predictions right (!), it rarely gives me the feeling it's unfairly strong that some other pokes do.

Idk I gave it some thought and also played some more games with Mawile recently, it's definitely strong and I like its stallbreaking capabilities but still don't rly think a potential ban for it would be justified. There's a few issues the poke has to face, like the poor speed stat (tho obviously sucker punch somewhat makes up for it, especially for the SD set), u also rly want to get the predictions right to keep up the momentum (especially vs stall, otherwise those regen pokes will just always burn u with that first scald if u give them the chance lmao), that's also important to minimize the rocky helmet damage, pokes like Skarmory or Tangrowth can abuse their healing to wear u down with time (the 4a variant). Lele's terrain is also annoying as it blocks sucker punch, happens susprisingly often. Sometimes there are also those priority vs priority mind games vs faster poker (or possibly faster, like another Mawile) where if u get it wrong ur SP will fail, and then that " offensive counterplay consisting of predicting sucker punch" which u mentioned, Mawile vs sub Blacephalon and such. It also tends to be rather tough for Mawile to find good opportunities to switch in and mega evolve, especially if u want to preserve some health to be able to tank a hit like Gliscor's EQ, but I guess that's a minor issue.

I also feel like the list of pokes that can wall or check Mawile is much longer than the one u presented, most teams have some more or less solid answers. Gliscor is definitely one of the best counters and it's rly common now but it's always annoying to break through things like Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth or Toxapex, u don't appreciate Zapdos' Static (and Discharge) or Moltres/Volcarona's Flame Body (and those damn scalds eh), well defensive answers generally depend on the set u're using plus scouting/predictions of both u and ur opponent (well it's tricky to play around Mawile before u know its set ngl) but the list of potential counters would be pretty long I think, the Heatran and MScizor u mentioned, Skarmory especially when it's faster (and all of them seem to run some speed EVs these days, gotta go almost full speed with Mawle if u hope to outspeed, personally i used to run more bulk but had to adjust) cos u will just kill urself on the helmet, even Slowbro with helmet can be pretty annoying if u don't run SD/Knock Off and/or don't predict its switch-ins right and gotta evacuate or risk the scald burn. Then there are faster bulky mons, many of which can take a hit, surprisingly even Garchomp can tank a +2 sucker punch in an emergency and revenge kill, which I've done quite frequently:

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 300-353 (84 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

or

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 265-312 (77.7 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There's Ninja and Koko, things like Lando, Magearna or Magnezone can take a hit, tbh even Kartana works to an extent since its physically bulky enough (25% chance for ohko with +2 sucker). Overall I'd say there's many more pressing suspect targets but still up for discussion.

 

[Optify]

Hmm tbh before seeing your post I wouldn't even have considered MMawile among the suspect candidates, I've played quite a lot of gen 7 OU and then nat dex with a couple of different teams and the poke never seemed like too much to handle for any of them (and I never rly included it in my teambuilding plans as a specific threat to counter tbh), personally I usually prefer to see Mawile in the opposing team than most of the other possible megas. Might have happened once or twice but I don't rly recall ever getting outright swept by Mawile, I've also used the poke myself a fair bit (tho opted for the 4a variant, I had tried the SD one at first but the former proved more consistent eventually, so my perspective is a bit biased towards the 4a set ngl) and while it can open some holes if u get the predictions right (!), it rarely gives me the feeling it's unfairly strong that some other pokes do.

Idk I gave it some thought and also played some more games with Mawile recently, it's definitely strong and I like its stallbreaking capabilities but still don't rly think a potential ban for it would be justified. There's a few issues the poke has to face, like the poor speed stat (tho obviously sucker punch somewhat makes up for it, especially for the SD set), u also rly want to get the predictions right to keep up the momentum (especially vs stall, otherwise those regen pokes will just always burn u with that first scald if u give them the chance lmao), that's also important to minimize the rocky helmet damage, pokes like Skarmory or Tangrowth can abuse their healing to wear u down with time (the 4a variant). Lele's terrain is also annoying as it blocks sucker punch, happens susprisingly often. Sometimes there are also those priority vs priority mind games vs faster poker (or possibly faster, like another Mawile) where if u get it wrong ur SP will fail, and then that " offensive counterplay consisting of predicting sucker punch" which u mentioned, Mawile vs sub Blacephalon and such. It also tends to be rather tough for Mawile to find good opportunities to switch in and mega evolve, especially if u want to preserve some health to be able to tank a hit like Gliscor's EQ, but I guess that's a minor issue.

I also feel like the list of pokes that can wall or check Mawile is much longer than the one u presented, most teams have some more or less solid answers. Gliscor is definitely one of the best counters and it's rly common now but it's always annoying to break through things like Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth or Toxapex, u don't appreciate Zapdos' Static (and Discharge) or Moltres/Volcarona's Flame Body (and those damn scalds eh), well defensive answers generally depend on the set u're using plus scouting/predictions of both u and ur opponent (well it's tricky to play around Mawile before u know its set ngl) but the list of potential counters would be pretty long I think, the Heatran and MScizor u mentioned, Skarmory especially when it's faster (and all of them seem to run some speed EVs these days, gotta go almost full speed with Mawle if u hope to outspeed, personally i used to run more bulk but had to adjust) cos u will just kill urself on the helmet, even Slowbro with helmet can be pretty annoying if u don't run SD/Knock Off and/or don't predict its switch-ins right and gotta evacuate or risk the scald burn. Then there are faster bulky mons, many of which can take a hit, surprisingly even Garchomp can tank a +2 sucker punch in an emergency and revenge kill, which I've done quite frequently:

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 300-353 (84 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

or

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 265-312 (77.7 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There's Ninja and Koko, things like Lando, Magearna or Magnezone can take a hit, tbh even Kartana works to an extent since its physically bulky enough (25% chance for ohko with +2 sucker). Overall I'd say there's many more pressing suspect targets but still up for discussion.

Gonna be a short post here, but the issue here is all these need to be at perfect health, for example if garchomp / swampert / kartana take any bit of chip, they drop, magnezone also fails to counter mawile without the subsititute steel beam set, as +2 sucker punch catches it after rocks; by definition mawile has no counters, you need to play around it making it an absolute pain both in the builder and in a game, however that's simply my experience, discussion is always open, that's why I made the post in the first place. I also believe that without the addition of the buffed teleport that mawile would be fine, but giving mawile free entry like this, makes it hard to handle; and often results in you picking a mon if your counterplay has taken a few rounds of rocks / spikes / rocky helm ect.

 

[Haunter7]

I also believe that without the addition of the buffed teleport that mawile would be fine, but giving mawile free entry like this, makes it hard to handle; and often results in you picking a mon if your counterplay has taken a few rounds of rocks / spikes / rocky helm ect.

Fair point tbh, I don't use Teleport and usually end up switching Mawile in for the first time only after a teammate's death, but I guess it's more an issue of Teleport being broken than Mawile itself in this case? Also yeah some of the pokes gotta be healthy to check it reliably if there's a situation where Mawile is already in and at +2, well the poke no doubt is a threat, that's for sure. From my own experience tho, there's usually a way out even if u have to sack a mon or two after u had let it set up, never felt the frustration and hopelessness which is often there when facing things like Spectrier or even Cinderace at times.

 

[KirbCena]

With Cinderace finally being banned (thank fucking god), I figured yet another prediction post for the meta is in order:



Offensive Steels are probably one of the two biggest groups of beneficiaries of Ace's ban, as the bunny could easily force the teams using them on the backfoot and use them as momentum fodder. Kartana and Magearna will likely appreciate the ban the most, as both have lost one of their best offensive checks, which means teams are going to be resorting to other means like Corviknight for the former and Toxapex for the latter (Mega Scizor checks both Kart and Mage well, so expect a rise in usage for that too if they become more prominent). Mega Mawile was already really good, and Ace leaving the tier only makes things better for it for obvious reasons.



Bulky Waters that couldn't check Cinderace also benefit heavily from its ban, as they're no longer a liability to teams that use them over Waters like Slowbro and Toxapex. Fini appreciates not being obliterated by Gunk Shot while setting up CM or defogging, while Slowking can fit on more teams because checking Ace is no longer a necessity and it can decently check mons like Heatran and Magearna. Balance can also run Gastrodon much more comfortably now for similar reasons as King.

/

HO lost one of its best wallbreakers, as Norm-Z Ace demanding multiple checks made it easy for HO to capitalize on teams that overprepared for Ace but not enough for other mons like Mage and Rillaboom. I can still see it doing well though because of other staples like Rillaboom and KissPower Mage still being really strong, but Ace's ridiculous power will be missed on these teams.



While Magearna remains at large, Latias at least appreciates Ace being gone, as it gives more ease for the bulky balance teams that Lati typically finds itself on. That being said, it still does have a couple issues, such as being super crippled by status, the issue of wanting all of Aura Sphere's coverage with Psyshock and Ice Beam's ability to check Grounds on CM sets, as well as balance breakers like Mega Mawile still being strong.

In general, I think Bulky Offense and Balance teams will have a bit more breathing room when it comes to choosing defensive cores since Ace isn't around to force 2-3 mons on every team to try to keep it in check. However, I do think that Magearna will still be overwhelming for the tier seeing as it's much more unpredictable with its multitude of sets that have few shared checks and thus means a similar situation as Ace in terms of keeping it in check.

 

[Sputnik]

It's been a few days since Ace was nuked from the tier so I'd like to discuss a few things that I've been really liking recently


This core is back in a big way. Using a Water-type that wasn't a Slowtwin or Toxapex was an excellent way to lose to Cinderace long term, especially if you ran into a Normalium Z variant. Tapu Fini didn't check any Cinderace, which made it a liability on a lot of teams in the Ace meta. Tangrowth was even worse off; it was a physical wall that was hugely threatened by Cinderace and didn't enjoy other metagame trends such as the rise of bulky Calm Mind users of Mega Latias and Clefable as well as Future Sight being paired with breakers it wanted to switch into. Making this core work in the Ace meta was extremely tough and you were almost certainly better off using CorvPex or something similar.

This core, when paired with an offensive Ground Revenge killer and a good check to Mega Charizard Y and the bulky Calm Mind users, is back in form in my opinion. Tangrowth has excellent matchups against common threats such as Rillaboom, many Landorus-T sets, Kartana, and Mega Lopunny. Its great utility and surprising set variance depending on what you need it to check makes it really nice, and then you can easily pair it with Fini to deal with threats such as Heatran and Ash-Greninja while also Defogging. I've enjoyed pairing this group with various Magearna and Calm Mind Mega Latias and Clef answers; my personal favorite is Mega Scizor, which is a great sturdy check to most of what this core dislikes outside of Mega Charizard Y and certain SD Ground types, all of which can be dealt with via the other slots on the team. I'm seriously enjoying FiniTang again, and I wouldn't be at all stunned if we see more of both in the near future.


I'm still experimenting with this one but Victini has mad potential right now. The Choice Scarf sets were always good, but the very interesting set that I'm testing right now is Boots Victini. This saw some use earlier this year but with Ace around there wasn't much purpose to using it unless you were hilariously weak to Mega Latias and other offensive Psychic-types and desperately needed the role compression. But now it's here in form; a really nice and hard to wear down bulky pivot that can force Toxic onto several dangerous threats, such as Mega Latias and Slowbro, all while checking Mega Latias, Tapu Lele, and Mega Medicham. Its access to Electric-coverage also makes it a legitimate threat to at least put our bulky Water-types into range of having to use their Recovery move, which Ace could struggle to do sometimes. It's obviously an overall downgrade, as it notably can't act as speed control, unlike Cinderace, and the overall loss of Speed makes it worse against Offensive Garchomp, Gengar, and Mega Diancie, but fortunately, this speed tier isn't especially crowded at the moment, and these threats can be taken care of by teammates. A nice Mon that I would like to experiment with a bit more.

 

[Spacio]

Gonna be a short post here, but the issue here is all these need to be at perfect health, for example if garchomp / swampert / kartana take any bit of chip, they drop, magnezone also fails to counter mawile without the subsititute steel beam set, as +2 sucker punch catches it after rocks; by definition mawile has no counters, you need to play around it making it an absolute pain both in the builder and in a game, however that's simply my experience, discussion is always open, that's why I made the post in the first place. I also believe that without the addition of the buffed teleport that mawile would be fine, but giving mawile free entry like this, makes it hard to handle; and often results in you picking a mon if your counterplay has taken a few rounds of rocks / spikes / rocky helm ect.

I can only agree. I don't know if it is worth the suspect, but i can at least state that Mawile is almost impossible to handle consistantly with stall teams. I'm pretty much a stall only player since gen 6, and it's just awful to play against it. There isn't any defensive counter: there is always some set able to break any defensive pokemon. The sword dance set espacially.
The only thing i was able to find to beat the sword dance set is fully defensive volcarona. You have to get enough defenses, or you wont be able to survive a boosted sucker punch. You need to be full health as well, so can't really be considered as a counter imo.
So, i have to rely on multiple checks for it: corviknight/skarmory, gliscor, and to setup hazards + anticipate when it'll come.
Maybe i'm missing some key mon to beat it, tbh even if it's a nich mon i'd still use it, as Mawile-Mega is the single most threatening to stalls.

 

[theotherguytm]

The best check to Mega Mawile is usually catching its player getting greedy and smacking it with a burn, or by utilising faster Pokemon that can take a hit. If it has Swords Dance there's not a lot stall teams can do about it if their team is slower or their faster mons lose to Sucker Punch, but the All-Out-Attacker variants can be handled by using defensive cores that blockade it from mindlessly clicking buttons and force it to predict. Good checks to Mega Mawile unboosted:

List

Zapdos-Amazing mon in general, can force it out with the threat of Heat Wave if it is weakened and is only threatened with an unboosted OHKO by the rare Ice Punch. Has to be wary of Knock Off though.
Mega Scizor-Takes everything it can throw bar Fire Fang with ease, and can pick off a weakened Mega Mawile with Bullet Punch. Punishes setup by being faster.
Heatran-Eats everything but Brick Break. Is faster and OHKOs with uninvested Magma Storm (or burns with Lava Plume).
Toxapex-Great at scouting Mega Mawile, especially in combination with a Ground type, always lives Thunder Punch after rocks even if SpD and ignores everything else.
Gliscor-Another very good scout, lives a Play Rough and is only threatened by Ice Punch, threatens it with Earthquake.
Aegislash-Aegi Gang. Aegi Gang. SubToxic Free Wins. Bottom Text. For real, Aegi is only threatened by Sucker Punch and Knock Off, and can use King's Shield to halt Mawile cold (-1 Fire Fang 3HKOs).
Melmetal-Literally could not care less what set Mega Mawile is running, as long as it's healthy it tanks two hits (with Protect for extra Leftovers VS Fire Fang) and DIB OHKOs almost every time with Spikes up. Counter.
Mega Slowbro-252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 76+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Alomomola-Another excellent scout, takes ~60% from Thunder Punch.
Mega Venusaur-Shrugs off everything bar the very rare Iron Head.
Hippowdon-You know the drill at this point, tanks everything bar Ice Punch.
Skarmory/Corviknight-Not such a great defensive answer considering most AoA Mega Mawile have at least one of Thunder Punch or Fire Fang, but worth noting.
Volcarona-Yes, it does work, but hopefully by now you can see that it's not necessary to run Phys Def Volc on every stall team!
A couple of UR Megas worth looking into:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 128-152 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 111-132 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO

So I'll close this out with one final tip: Stall=/=Slow! Speed is still the bane of Mega Mawile, and by far the most practical way to handle the SD variants is a faster check switching in that tanks +2 Sucker Punch. While traditional speed control measures are not generally needed on stall teams, Speed remains a useful tool even for defensive Pokemon. Best of luck!

 

[DeadlyBird]

I dunno if Mega Mawile will still be on topic when I'll finish to write this, but while I think it is one of the best mons in the tier and that any semi-serious builder / player should prep for it, it is not broken imo. I believe that broken in the current metagame would be more akin to something like Magearna, who can screw you over with its sheer number of sets and thus, its unpredictability. For comparison sake, when building you have to prep for Specs Magearna, Kiss Power, Heart Swap / AV or CM Split depending of your team ( if you don't play teams reliant on Clefable / Mega Latias sweeps - so Balance usually - or Stall, these ones won't often do much and are not too hard to check with stuffs like Landorus + whatever outspeeds Magearna and can finish it usually though I'll give you that ), SG with its various coverage and Z moves, or hell even surprise Scarf or say, Trick Room. I even heard about Iron Defense and physically offensive. The amount of times I've been swept by Mag just clicking SG or reversing the course of a game I thought I won just by using TR when I thought it'll be SG and so die in one hit, I'm sure most of you can relate. And I don't play that much nowadays so I didn't meet Specs a lot but the few times I did it was really annoying ( the opponent was like " oh, you like to try and predict to avoid my attacks by switching accordingly ? I'll Trick ya. " ) Good luck trying to prepare against every sets. But Mega Mawile has what... three sets ? One of which you guys may not know too well since I don't recall seeing any of you talk about it ( Sub 3 Atks, usually Ice Punch / Play Rough if you want to beat Mega Sableye without the need of Electric Terrain support or chip damage / T Punch / Focus Punch, this set is a lure that came out in late gen 7 to not only lure Heatran, Landorus etc., but also to put a huge dent on Mega Aggron's health since it was used in favor of Mega Sableye on Stall to beat Mega Mawile teams that ran rampant at some point. In Nat Dex it seems it hasn't been " discovered " yet - cause let's be real, most " innovations " of this meta come from new moves or gen 7 OU, Specs Mag was used in the beginning of SM, the spreads I can see in the Contribution & Correction thread are often gen 7 spreads, early Nat Dex people were like " with 8 Spe on Pex you can outspeed Reuniclus huhuhu " wow mate that's new, what a genius you are for figuring that out lol more recently I even had someone in the Showdown chat trying to tell me that SD Synthesis Kartana wasn't from gen 7 when it was either a blatant lie or someone showed it to the (wo)man and (s)he didn't know where it came from, I digress tho - ) ? Come on, it's not that hard to prep for or to beat. There are a multitude of viable, splashable mons and techs to check this mon and you know what it's gonna do. And if we talk " broken " as in " too powerful ", Mega Mawile is inherently slow, so any mon ( quite a lot of them actually : Ttar, Lando, Chomper, the Grens, Koko, Lele, Heatran, Zapdos, Mega Lopunny, etc. ) that can survive +2 Sucker Punch and that can KO it in response ( sometimes you'll need chip ) can deal with it, granted said mon will lose a lot of its health in the process most of the time but it will have done part of its job. And yes, a problem with SD is the fact that you can't really afford to take chip damage with common offensive checks, but that's why you should use at least two of them or one and a defensive check ( the hard part is keeping them healthy though if the opposing Mega Mawile is kept to sweep late game, you better force your opponent to bring it in battle so you can deal with it as early as possible most of the time, make bold plays attacking it when it tries to SD in your face so you can beat it or revenge kill it easier, etc. ). SpD Heatran with Scarf Landorus, what's a Mega Mawile ? Of course I'm exaggerating, it's often not as easy as I make it sound in practice, but like, Mega Mawile is slow, it won't kill everyone with +2 Sucker Punch, it's rather frail and to get at +2 it has to find an opportunity to setup, not get burned, not get beat, so getting kills with it is not as free as say, Final Gambit Scarf Victini or an unexpected SD Lando that nukes one of your mons, and we have mons like Mega Medicham, who has virtually no switch ins ( bar what... unseen Shedinja ? ) especially now that it tends to run Thunder Punch ( which let you beat Slowbro and Reuniclus, Mega Sableye etc. with Electric Terrain ), yet we not here thinking mon should be banned when just like Mega Mawile, the only real counterplay against it is revenge killing ( I know that SD is better and harder to revenge kill, but beating these mons is a similar process ). Basically, these mons can easily get kills, but it's also somewhat easy to kill them.
Additionally, I would like to add the fact that more often than not, when your team is prepared against SD Mega Mawile, it is also naturally prepared ( arguably even more ) against the AoA and the Sub set ( the latter which you sack a check to beat the Sub and you revenge kill with another check, which will be easier than against other sets since it will be weakened ). The former set typically runs Play Rough / T Punch / Sucker Punch / Fire Punch / Brick Break etc. ( you could add Iron Head for Mega Venusaur or Ice Punch for obvious targets ), but most defensive mons not 4x weak to Fire / Ice Punch won't die in one blow without SD. You rarely use one defensive mon, usually you have a Lando in the back too so you can switch it on T Punch to Intimidate it for example... things like that. Another thing to note is the fact that it's not uncommon for common Defoggers like Lando or Zapdos to have a super effective move against Mega Mawile.
Lastly, Spacio, I'd recommend you to use Mega Aggron / Melmetal with Wish support for SD and / or say uh... Will-o-Wisp Moltres ( that you maybe forgot to mention as a check to AoA, theotherguytm. Btw Skarmory can also somewhat check Mega Mawile with Iron Defense, Counter and whatnot, I'm not too familiar with these sets tho but my Mega Mawile got beat by them by surprise in gen 7 iIrc ).

Sorry for the long ass text but all in all although I could be wrong this is my ( hopefully valuable and useful ) opinion, TLDR yeah Mega Mawile is very strong but imo if you build teams solid enough to check it ( two offensive checks / an offensive check and a defensive core with a Ground type to switch into T Punch, or whatever works for you and isn't bad ), don't get chipped against SD so you can revenge kill Mega Mawile in a pinch, and force out the mon to beat it as early as possible, you should be good if you don't play like Ash.

 

[theotherguytm]

Will-o-Wisp Moltres ( that you maybe forgot to mention as a check to AoA, theotherguytm.

There's a slight irony in someone going on a slight rant about copying Gen 7 trends when Gen 8 trends make Moltres a much less reliable Mawile check. Anyway, standard Moltres is now Mystical Fire/Roost/Defog/Scorching Sands. The SpA drops from Mystical Fire outweigh the slight loss of power....
0 SpA Moltres Mystical Fire vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 204-242 (77.2 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
...in most instances.
But yeah, the reason I didn't list Moltres was partly because I was getting bored of listing checks, partly because Moltres has to worry about the more common Thunder Punch unlike Zapdos and gets crippled for life by Knock removing its Boots on the switch. It's still a decent check, it just can't reliably come in on either set.

Anyway, as for your concerns about innovation, don't worry this happens every gen. ORAS and SM are very different metagames with extra mons like Drizzle Pelipper, Magearna, UBs, Pex etc. The fact a lot of things remained pretty constant with the existing Pokemon anyway should really speak volumes. However, Nat Dex literally has 2 Gen 8 Pokemon in A- and above (3 if you count AegiNerf), so yeah there is going to be similarities between the two metagames. There are nonetheless massive differences between Gen 7 and Nat Dex, such as Kyurem being a consistent breaker/sweeper and general high-level threat, Blissey being the better blob, Teleport playstyles as a whole, Zard Y being the better Zard form again etc. Nat Dex has plenty of innovation, especially in tournaments (Speaking of, Nat Dex WC is just coming to a close so be sure to check out some replays from that).

 

[DeadlyBird]

I didn't intend to rant even slightly and I don't consider my post as a rant, though ( sorry if I somehow made it look like that, I mostly wanted to share my opinion about Mega Mawile ). Why would Moltres be a less reliable check to Mega Mawile than in gen 7 ? Didn't HDB eases its life a lot and thus made it way better than it was in gen 7, like way less niche ? If I'd have to guess in addition to what you already mentionned, I'd say Zapdos outclass it ( since it's better against Toxapex, Tapu Fini, can Volt Switch, etc. ) but I don't know for sure so I'm asking.
I did well saying " maybe " then, as I figured that you could have not mentionned it intentionally. Also yeah I just calced Moltres takes more from T Punch than Zapdos takes from Play Rough, so at the end of the day, unless you use a more powerful Fire move than Mystical Fire to OHKO Mega Mawile ( which wouldn't be practical for other things Moltres is supposed to check ), Zapdos is more valuable overall since it's not as weak to Knock Off and since it can check more things. Didn't think about that. I'd argue that unlike Zapdos, Moltres could switch on AoA Mega Mawile at full health or even reasonably less though, as it wouldn't typically run Knock Off and as since it wouldn't have SD, you could Roost off T Punch damage, lose your Flying type in the process so it could not hurt you too bad, and threaten to burn it with Flame Body, rendering it useless.

As for the innovation part, I thought it was weird that people felt like they forgot a lot of sets, spreads, etc. and the few people I talked with seemed to act like it was new, which was comical and déjà-vu to me. But yeah, I know that Nat Dex isn't SM / USM, that's why I tried to play the tier a bit ( I got quite bored of mons since then though, I only play like... twice a month maybe ? Idk ). I didn't know that Kyurem was used as a sweeper and that Zard Y was the best of the two Zard though ( why is that ? Also, is the Kyurem sweeper set akin to the one they use in gen 8 OU - DD - ? I thought only Specs and Sub were used in Nat Dex ). As for the tournaments replays, I never really watched them. Where are they ? Could be interesting to see

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

SWINGIN’ TIGER (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Fly

Defensive Landorus-T is actually one of the benefitters of the Cinderace ban imo. It was always forced to run Rocky Helmet to punish U-turn spam, but it no longer has to do that. Thus, I think we can return to SM style defensive Z-sets which are especially potent with the rise in defensive Grass-types. In addition, the set’s ability to act as a solid Rillaboom check thanks to Flyinium Z also makes it great alongside Pokemon like Ferrothorn, that might otherwise falter in front of Rillaboom. There are also several offensive teammates (Tapu Koko, Ash-Greninja, Zeraora) who appreciate the removal of Grass-types, and deal well with Corviknight and Zapdos. In general, I think Lando-T has way more room to start running non-Scarf or defensive sets with Cinderace, so I wouldn’t be surprised if we started seeing Z-sets again.

 

[Jho]

I'm just going to talk about my current issues with the metagame -



Magearna is nuts, and I don't think that is news to anyone. We recently lost one of its best offensive checks in Cinderace and since then I've had a much harder time dealing with it efficiently. In my eyes there are three "main" sets for Magearna being commonly run right now which are Choice Specs, Shift Gear + Calm Mind, and Assault Vest. On top of this there are other niche sets which see some use such as Heal Bell and Calm Mind + Pain Split but for this post I'm going to focus on the first three.


Choice Specs Magearna is by far the most restricting presence in the teambuilder right now and is incredibly difficult to play around effectively on top of that. Magearna single handedly mandates a Bulky Steel-type on every team, and on top of that, its also important to have a Volt Blocker, as well as a midground to switch into it since common Bulky Steel-types such as Corviknight, Heatran, and Assault Vest Magearna get worn down so easily by Volt Switch and Hazards. This generally means that the best counterplay to Specs Magearna is extremely unreliable and relies on guessing right. On top of this, you also have to take into account the possibility of both Focus Blast and Flash Cannon when switching these Pokemon in. Trick also complicates matters by removing passive Pokemon such as Blissey and Chansey's ability to switch in without risk. Not that they appreciate being Volt Switched on into a Pokemon which prevents them from recovering easily either, though.

To deal with Magearna you will often see teams running Toxapex/Galarian Slowking + a Bulky Steel-type + a Ground, 2 Bulky Steel-types + a Ground, or something like Corviknight + Slowking/Gastrodon as neither of these extremely fat Water-types can take 2 Fleur Cannons you need to scout with them and then go to Corviknight to try and pressure stall the Fleur PP. Pivoting around Magearna like this is generally the best way to deal with it and then trying to force it out after it drops its own SpA. This is obviously not the most healthy form of counterplay but its currently the best we can manage because there is very little that can take 2 Fleur Cannons that also isnt bothered by Volt/Focus/Flash or crippled by Trick. This is the set that I believe makes Magearna too much to handle in the current metagame.

//
Shift Gear + Calm Mind Magearna is an extremely potent win condition that is almost entirely limited to Hyper Offense teams since that is where it can get the support it greatly appreciates easily - usually in the forms of Hazard Stacks, Dual Screens, and Grassy Terrain. While this particular set is generally limited by what types of teams it fits on, it is not limited in which set it can run and while Weakness Policy has been the most common variant for a while - Life Orb allows it to break Toxapex much more easily, and Fightinium Z allows it to blow past Heatran which generally walls the common Draining Kiss + Stored Power variant. This set snowballs out of control extremely quickly due to having limited counterplay in the first place on top having to play around the possibility of Weakness Policy, potentially giving it more turns to freely Set-Up. I think everyone has been on the receiving end of this Magearna sweeping through a team with what seems like nothing you could do about it. What I think keeps this Magearna set from being too over the top is the fact that counterplay does exist and is generally easy to fit on teams on top of the fact that it requires a lot of support in order to get the turns it needs to set-up into a game ending threat. However, I do acknowledge that playing around it can be extremely difficult/frustrating and its very punishing if you make even a small mistake versus it.


Assault Vest Magearna has come back somewhat recently as it is one of the better pivots into to Choice Specs Magearna, as well as a way to shore up your matchups versus other strong Special Wallbreakers, most notably Ash Greninja. This set doesnt really do anything "meta breaking" unlike Choice Specs and (arguably) Shift Gear + Calm Mind and I would actually consider it a really healthy addition to the metagame since it helps to shore up matchups into a lot of other problematic Pokemon. The thing holding AV Magearna back right now is how common Spikes are, as they make Magearna's ability to check the aforementioned Pokemon basically non-existent.



This might be a controversial take, but on top of Magearna, I also think Ash Greninja is broken right now for a few reasons. The main reason is, much like Cinderace, it dictates the Bulky Water-type slots on most teams as using Pokemon like Slowking or Slowbro leaves you so incredibly weak to Ash Greninja and having to scramble with the rest of the team to shore up the matchup. With Blissey falling off a cliff, finding a check to Ash Greninja that is not the Bulky Water-Type slot is incredibly hard and you often have to accept using double Waters and stacking weaknesses in that regards, or using otherwise subpar Pokemon like SpD Kommo-o and Hydreigon for example. The other reason I think Ash Greninja is so prominent right now is that the options for Hazard Removal are atrocious in this metagame and its extremely easy to keep layers up which just makes dealing with Ash Greninja so much more difficult, on top of how much this enables other Pokemon such as Mega Mawile and Magearna to name a few. All of this together makes me believe that Ash Greninja is actually a really unhealthy presence in the metagame right now.

These 2 are the biggest offenders for making National Dex not as fun for me as I would like right now. I have a good idea of what people think about Magearna but I'm really interested in what the community thinks about Ash Greninja in the post Cinderace metagame.

 

[KirbCena]

With Magearna now officially banned from NatDex, I think another prediction post is in order. Get your popcorn ready, cuz this'll probably be a long one.



The Dragon-types of the tier are gonna have a fucking field day with Mage gone. Hydreigon is no longer at a huge disadvantage if it forgoes Groundium-Z for other Z-Crystals (or Earth Power for Flash Cannon in some cases) since it doesn't have to worry about the robo-bunny tanking its hits and obliterating it otherwise. Mega Latias and balance teams in general lose yet another thorn in their side, as both Specs and KissPower Mage could easily overwhelm these teams without excessive counterplay. SpD Kommo-o (which was already getting better and better imo) is easier to slap on teams to check threats like Ash-Gren & Zard-Y without fear of giving Magearna free setup.



These all just lost one of, if not their best check, in defensive (AV/SwapSwitch) Magearna. Ash-Gren is as threatening as ever, especially with Blissey having tanked in usage, being able to effortlessly break through its own checks with Spikes (unless HDB variants of certain checks like Toxapex arise), and clean up weakened teams with ease. Lele benefits similarly since Specs and CM sets can much more easily break through other defensive steels, therefore benefitting teammates like SD Kartana. Fun fact, standard Corviknight and Mega Scizor are actually at huge risk (guaranteed in Corv's case) of being 2HKOed by Specs Psychic in terrain after rocks and a Future Sight from the Slowtwins. Mega Diancie is pretty much the same as Lele, but benefits even more since even its supereffective coverage wouldn't annoy defensive Mage as much as other steels would be. Hoopa and Maw basically have no real defensive pivot into them now, so definitely expect them to get stronger as well, especially Mega Mawile since it was already super strong.



Despite Mage leaving, I personally think this will continue to get at least a bit better since it checks so many relevant mons in the tier (Koko, Zeraora, Gren, Kart, Rilla, CM Clef, CM Fini, etc.) and isn't all that difficult to put on teams.



Probably now the best check to all the Psychics and Fairies that are going to get better with Magearna's ban, which means there's even more reason to run it over Slowbro since it's relatively easy to make up for any of its shortcomings, barring perhaps Pursuit vulnerability.



Hyper Offense straight-up loses it best setup sweeper, though I can't wait to see if and how it adapts. Don't think there's really much else I can say on this one.


I mean, I guess AV could still check certain mons like Koko and Kyurem, but there are overall better options for this, like Amoonguss and Mega Scizor respectively, that also check more of the meta. NP sets are decent on specific builds since they fuck up cores like ClefPex so maybe there's some salvageable niche for it yet.


There's likely something I missed while typing this, but I think I've covered the major mons. Overall, I think checking the overall metagame will be much easier now that Mage is gone. Defensive cores are a lot less strained, which leaves more creativity in the teambuilder. Hopefully, these are sufficient explanations, cuz Ramadan's got me being half-asleep everyday now lol.

 

[Ox the Fox]

Started playing natdex recently and I want to talk about an archetype I've been enjoying - screens. Would love to get a discussion going on it and see how other people view the archetype.

To preface, I've been playing a ton of ORAS recently and ofc have seen how prevalent serp screens is. This gave me the idea to build a screens + mana + volc team in natdex, and I've been impressed with how it plays. Manaphy and volcarona both function extremely well in the current metagame, being able to pick apart balance teams depending on their coverage. These completely destroy the mlatias/toxapex/corviknight/clefable archetype that's so prevalent in the metagame and synergize well with each other by providing coverage for the other to kill things like Tapu Fini or Toxapex. These mons lack coverage to break apart everything, and you really have to choose which counters you want to have, but realistically in the game your opponent won't be able to scout for every possible set and you'll be able to bluff different coverage moves. These mons work even better behind screens, being able to take hits from mons they wouldn't normally be able to take hits from. I've also been using SD scale shot mchomp which seems to be one of the best sweepers in the tier right now. Under screens its bulk is absolutely insane as it's able to setup on so many mons, and sweep fairly easily.

There's a few different screen setters you can try but I think that grimmsnarl is the best (s/os ppödd for the idea). Having priority screens + taunt comes in handy for this meta and the typing is great for a defensive mon. I've also tried out Tapu Koko and Regieleki which both provide more speed, however less bulk. Tapu Koko also has taunt, while regieleki has spin which can be valuable on certain teams. I tested out serperior too, but it ended up feeling very weak in this meta as it tended to lure in corviknight which could easily defog all the screens away. The main draw of serperior is that it gets glare, but having glare means that you're unable to do anything against corviknight. Overall, I think all screens setters have at least some niche and can all work depending on the team.

https://pokepast.es/8115504bccd10cd5 - this is the team I've been using that got me up to #5 on ladder. wacan manaphy is a really cool tech I came up with that allows u to take a hit from tapu koko, bolt strike victini, zera, and kill them back with surf.

Would love to hear everyone else's thoughts on screens as an archetype, like I said, I'm very new to the metagame but I've been really enjoying it and think there's a lot of room for creativity!

 

[NuttyRabbit]

Started playing natdex recently and I want to talk about an archetype I've been enjoying - screens. Would love to get a discussion going on it and see how other people view the archetype.

View attachment 334526

To preface, I've been playing a ton of ORAS recently and ofc have seen how prevalent serp screens is. This gave me the idea to build a screens + mana + volc team in natdex, and I've been impressed with how it plays. Manaphy and volcarona both function extremely well in the current metagame, being able to pick apart balance teams depending on their coverage. These completely destroy the mlatias/toxapex/corviknight/clefable archetype that's so prevalent in the metagame and synergize well with each other by providing coverage for the other to kill things like Tapu Fini or Toxapex. These mons lack coverage to break apart everything, and you really have to choose which counters you want to have, but realistically in the game your opponent won't be able to scout for every possible set and you'll be able to bluff different coverage moves. These mons work even better behind screens, being able to take hits from mons they wouldn't normally be able to take hits from. I've also been using SD scale shot mchomp which seems to be one of the best sweepers in the tier right now. Under screens its bulk is absolutely insane as it's able to setup on so many mons, and sweep fairly easily.

There's a few different screen setters you can try but I think that grimmsnarl is the best (s/os ppödd for the idea). Having priority screens + taunt comes in handy for this meta and the typing is great for a defensive mon. I've also tried out Tapu Koko and Regieleki which both provide more speed, however less bulk. Tapu Koko also has taunt, while regieleki has spin which can be valuable on certain teams. I tested out serperior too, but it ended up feeling very weak in this meta as it tended to lure in corviknight which could easily defog all the screens away. The main draw of serperior is that it gets glare, but having glare means that you're unable to do anything against corviknight. Overall, I think all screens setters have at least some niche and can all work depending on the team.

https://pokepast.es/8115504bccd10cd5 - this is the team I've been using that got me up to #5 on ladder. wacan manaphy is a really cool tech I came up with that allows u to take a hit from tapu koko, bolt strike victini, zera, and kill them back with surf.

Would love to hear everyone else's thoughts on screens as an archetype, like I said, I'm very new to the metagame but I've been really enjoying it and think there's a lot of room for creativity!

I was actually waiting for the chance to talk about this archetype. I think despite being dealt a major blow in terms of losing one of its best abusers in Magearna, Screens is actually an incredibly viable HO pick in this current metagame. As such, I actually wanted to talk about certain mons that fit on the archetype and how they are and how they function right now



Excadrill is easily the best lead rocker Screens could ask for. Lando may be faster and Mew may have Taunt, but Drill's ability to get up rocks vs literally everything thanks to Mold Breaker is awesome, as is its ability to spin vs just about anything, acting as a form of hazard control for an archetype that usually doesn't get it (and also making Regieleki irrelevant. It also is quite flexible, being able to fit a variety of options in its last slot from Iron Head to Toxic to my favorite option, Rock Tomb, which not only acts as impromptu speed control, but lets you win certain lead matchups you couldn't otherwise (such as vs Zard and vs Chomp if they click rocks turn 1). It's so, so good right now.



I'm actually going to argue that this thing is not only the best Mega available to the archetype, but also one of its best options in general. Mega Gyarados is an absolutely bonkers mon for HO rn because it can just 6-0 Stall damn near off the bat whether you're running Sub DD, DD Taunt, or even DD 3a (which is my favorite set) The Rillaboom and Fini weakness is a bit iffy but that can be covered by teammates and it generally does so well against fat teams that it's almost always worth considering.



The recent bans left a massive hole in Screens HO in regards to snowballing special sweepers, but it seems as if Manaphy's quickly come in to fill that hole. The set Ox posted is probably its best set, but sets like Z-Water or Sitrus are also worth considering if they can be fit. Though it lacks the speed boosting ability and defensive utility that Mage had, it exchanges that for the ability to just dumpster fat teams and be a nightmare to switch into (and also giving the archetype a nice check to stuff like Volc). Definitely would not be surprised if this becomes a staple on Screens down the line



Kommo-o is...a very interesting mon on screens. If you use it is almost has be Z (you can run SubDrum but I'd argue it's not a great fit on screens specifically) and the Double Soul set is arguably one of the biggest matchup fishes in the game insofar as it either completely 6-0s on preview (like vs weather. Seriously.) or you run into Clef/Fini/Pex and it just sits there and does nothing the whole game. As such, it's almost too easy to pass this mon up when teambuilding in favor of more...consistent options. But I would still argue that Double Soul still has merit, especially on an archetype that is able to pressure the aforementioned mons heavily anyways, but even beyond that, sets such as DD + Z-move could have some potential and could be worth exploring, especially since Kommo-o's unique defensive utility can give it multiple setup oppourtunities vs teams. As of now, Kommo-o is an interesting, inconsistent, but also underexplored option on screens.



The last mon I want to talk about is something that isn't actually that great on the archetype right now (at least imo) and why that interests me. Hawlucha, as anyone who played SM knows, was an offense and especially HO staple last generation and it seemed almost insane to even consider a screens without it. However, as of now? I wouldn't really consider using Lucha on most screens teams. Whether it's the competition Koko faces as a screener from Grimmsnarl (which I believe is the better screener), the popularity of other terrain users such as Rillaboom, Lele, and Fini at the moment or the widespread use of bulky Waters, Psychics, Fairies. and stuff like Zapdos and Koko, Lucha finds itself in a tough spot as a screens abuser and faces competition from other, more splashable abusers. Perhaps I'm wrong and Lucha is lowkey an amazing screens abuser right now, but I just wanted to bring it up because I thought it'd be interesting to discuss how a mon that was once a staple on this archetype now finds itself outclassed

Sorry if this was a bit of a rambly post, but I wanted to get some of my thoughts on an archetype I love (as shown by the over 5 times I've gotten suspect reqs in the tier with it).

If anyone has any thoughts on what I've posted or the archetype in general, do feel free to share!

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

FLOWER & FLAME (Volcarona) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Psychic

I think Volcarona is a massively underrated threat in the current metagame. Pretty much the only things that can stop it outright at the moment are Toxapex, Kommo-o, Heatran, Tapu Fini, and a healthy (above 75%) Garchomp. The rise in several Psychic (Mega Latias and Reuniclus) and Steel-types (Ferrothorn and Mega Mawile) that have resulted from Magearna’s ban is an immense aid to the flaming moth, as it has many more targets to feast on now. Even the aforementioned Pokemon who can check are generally very passive, and can be easily abused by teammates like SD Gliscor and Superpower Mega Scizor. As a result, I think people can no longer afford to keep Volcarona under the radar anymore.


NO WITNESSES (Kartana) @ Fightinium Z / Normalium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off / Giga Impact

Kartana has become something of a superstar in recent days, seeing a meteoric rise in use because it’s so good at ripping balance cores apart right now, while not being offensively checked by Cinderace or Magearna anymore. In general, the means of checking Kartana either see a +2 Breakneck Blitz coming their way or a menacing +2 Knock Off that deals a shitload and cripples mons like Zapdos. Even Corviknight, what seems to be the bane of Kartana’s existence, can’t stand up to the blade directly, and needs to U-turn out to something faster just to deal with it. I’m definitely interested in seeing how Kartana counterplay will evolve outside of Mega Latias, Zapdos, and Corviknight, especially in a metagame with no Tornadus-T.


HEAT OF THE HEARTBEAT (Tapu Lele) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

Tapu Lele, like Kartana, is in a seriously great spot right now. It lost a great defensive check in Magearna, and a revenge killer in Cinderace. While the metagame has started to outrun in some respect, its still have incredibly difficult to handle with conventional defensive cores, especially if one can land Thunderbolts on Slowking and Corviknight. As a result, I wouldn’t be surprised to see even a little increase in these latter two mons to shut down fatter balances that attempt to check as much as possible.

 

[Optify]

I would like to talk about a mon I believe is quite unexplored in the current meta. The mon in specific I am talking about are utility and refresh Latias sets

I will start off talking about refresh Mega Latias.




ULTRALIGHT BEAM (Latias) (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power / Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Refresh

This attacker is very threatening, as it allows you to 1v1 Pokemon that would generally beat you through status, such as Heatran if not Aura Sphere, and Toxapex. Mono Psychic-type attacks mean you require a ton of hazard support, however you can make it work quite well on hazardspam teams which I also believe are quite threatening due to the presence of Knock Off users such as Weavile benefitting from the Magearna ban, as well as Blissey's usage dropping off a cliff. The main reason to use this set is that Magearna was banned, meaning Latias loses a way to deal with it's most common annoyance, however Latias also lost a great offensive check. Example of an archetype where Latias works.

Now let's move on to Defog Mega Latias



Latias-Mega (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam / Earthquake / Thunder / Aura Sphere / Mystical Fire
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Roost
- Defog

This mon can do pretty much whatever you wanted it to do, for example on this team it works as a check to Kartana, Ground types, and Toxapex Whilst providing Defog support, this is great compression currently seeing as these Pokemon are all great currently. The main drawback of this set is not being able to use Latias' utility as a win-con as well, however being able to customize a defogger to check what you need it to check is extremely nice currently, especially with Medicham running Thunder Punch instead of it's ice counterpart.

 

[tf]

so... when i was thinking about life and Pokemon, i noticed that Kartana is played with Normalium Z, and not Serperior... why ?

The Set

Serperior @ Normalium Z
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Hyper Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Glare

I think this set can be a real threat, with its ability to destroy its checks, like Zapdos or Latias Mega
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 80-95 (20.8 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+2 252 SpA Serperior Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 330-389 (86.1 - 101.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (after a leaf storm)
it should work like that against latias https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1355376031-7wnfzvffd9fy08uyv3krxdpum168ce2pw

removing Zapdos or Latias Mega allows things like Rillaboom to pressure a lot the opposing team

HP Fire is here to pressure the Corviknight or Scizor Mega



My thoughts on Serperior
I think this mon is too luck reliant, if you are paralysed by the glare, you lose, if you aren't, Serp is fair. This thing is done to be like that: it's ability (especially against Defog), Leaf Storm, can miss or Glare, no need to explain why.
So I think Serperior is just unfair, you'll win if you are lucky, and it's useless if not
I don't think it needs to be suspect tested, but to have a specific attention
thanks for reading, and sorry for my english
edit: i don't know if it's the good thread to post that, tell me if not

 

[Jordy]

please use words instead of gigantic sprites it makes it easy to read

 

[Sagdiyev]

so ig I’ll take a crack at the bat.

.
The Blazing Kicking Chicken is back to potentially be metagame warping and banned. Here’s a couple sets I think might do well.

Z Move Swords Dance

Blaziken @ Electrium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Thunder Punch
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat

Pretty simple set, it uses Z Thunder Punch to break through non-Gliscor/Lando-t flyings and grounds. There are other options like Double Edge for Z, or a stab, or Z Earthquake, however I like Electrium Z to break past bulky waters for something like Ash-Greninja to auto win.

Special Attacker

Blaziken @ Leftovers / Groundium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Protect
- Fire Blast
- Scorching Sands
- Hidden Power Ice


Modest is used here for a bigger hit on Toxapex, however this set does find itself walled by Slowking. I find this as a decent lure set for Landorus and Gliscor, as HP Ice from 110 base special attack will chunk it hard.

Generally good partners are grass and electric types who can take out the water and flying types who usually annoy Blaziken.
Good luck to all of those who are laddering for the test!

 

[Nish the Great]

I think in terms of luring checks, this set has potential against Gliscor and Landorus

Mixed? (Blaziken) @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 216 Atk / 40 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power [Ice]

HP Ice OHKOes Landorus and 2HKOes Gliscor, and when they see Swords Dance, they won’t be looking out for ice coverage. My problems with Blaziken are that it seems to be headed the Cinderace route, that being that it can theoretically beat everything given the right set or Z-Move, and players will have to assume standard sets so as not to be swept.

 

[theotherguytm]

Courtesy of the legend that is Thunder Pwoell:
Blaziken @ Power Herb/Grassium Z
Rash Nature
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Work Up
- Fire Blast
- Close Combat
- Solar Beam
Handle certified Omari P-grade heat with care. Use with Pex-Be-Gone spray for best results, have a Pursuit user for Mega Latias, and don't be afraid to Work Up twice.
+1 252+ SpA Blaziken Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 223-263 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Blaziken Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Tapu Fini: 290-342 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 432-510 (111.9 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Blaziken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 316-373 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
You could probably do something similar with Scorching Sands>Solar Beam and Groundium Z, but the main draw of this set (unless you really want that Bloom Doom power) is saving the Z-move for a different sweeper, especially when your opponent is likely to predict Blaziken to have the Z-move, which lets you surprise punch them early with a different sweeper before Blaziken cleans house.