Resource National Dex Metagame Discussion v2

stuart littled.

Banned deucer.
Courtesy of the legend that is Thunder Pwoell:
Blaziken @ Power Herb/Grassium Z
Rash Nature
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Work Up
- Fire Blast
- Close Combat
- Solar Beam
Handle certified Omari P-grade heat with care. Use with Pex-Be-Gone spray for best results, have a Pursuit user for Mega Latias, and don't be afraid to Work Up twice.
+1 252+ SpA Blaziken Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 223-263 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Blaziken Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Tapu Fini: 290-342 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 4 Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 432-510 (111.9 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Blaziken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 316-373 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
You could probably do something similar with Scorching Sands>Solar Beam and Groundium Z, but the main draw of this set (unless you really want that Bloom Doom power) is saving the Z-move for a different sweeper, especially when your opponent is likely to predict Blaziken to have the Z-move, which lets you surprise punch them early with a different sweeper before Blaziken cleans house.
Hello thia is verry interestful does you have a recommended Pokkemon to have pursuit thankyou.
 
Hello thia is verry interestful does you have a recommended Pokkemon to have pursuit thankyou.
Depends on what kind of team you're building. On a balanced team, Banded Weavile, Banded Ttar and Mega Ttar are all great options, on a more hyper-offensive team structure you might have trouble fitting it, but you can forgo Pursuit if you have Pokemon that can lure/heavily chip Mega Latias. An example of a lure would be Bulk Up/Ice Punch Urshifu-RS. Mega Latias usually checks Urshifu and most Urshifu are Banded, but you can abuse the fact most Mega Latias run Psyshock over Psychic (or no STAB at all) to eat a hit and retaliate. However, Bulk Up Urshifu is quite niche, and you'd have to be wary of Thunder. An example of a Pokemon that can heavily chip Mega Latias would be Rillaboom. While it can't beat Mega Latias 1v1, Banded sets can use U-turn to wear down Mega Latias while threatening to sweep with Grassy Glide.

Sorry, I'm kinda terrible with examples, but I hope this gets the point across (plz don't use BU Urshifu it's either god-awful slow or piss-weak and Rillaboom revenges it all day).
 
So, I feel like reviving this thread and talking about the lack of defoggers in our current metagame
The only good fogger is that is very slappable is corv but corv loses to magnezone and having just one fogger in this metagame is not that good and my personal least favorite part of this current metagame but the only good fogger we can unban is torn-t which I think is broekn but idk how good it is because I didn't play it's meta. but that is all I have to say for now, so goodbye.
 

adem

don't save her, she don't wanna be saved
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
So, I feel like reviving this thread and talking about the lack of defoggers in our current metagame
The only good fogger is that is very slappable is corv but corv loses to magnezone and having just one fogger in this metagame is not that good and my personal least favorite part of this current metagame but the only good fogger we can unban is torn-t which I think is broekn but idk how good it is because I didn't play it's meta. but that is all I have to say for now, so goodbye.
this is quite a gross overestimation :

:ss/tapu-fini:
:ss/gliscor:
:ss/rotom-wash:
:ss/landorus-therian:

less slappable ones -
:ss/kartana:
:ss/latias-mega:
:ss/hydreigon:
:ss/dragonite:
:ss/mew:
:ss/mantine:
:ss/skarmory: (need a rlly big reason on why ur not using corv here)

corv also doesnt lose to zone early if u dont play bad / have a bad team, or run shed shell and beat it until u get knocked the next turn !!

you also dont need fog on every team !!
 
Last edited:

Spellcaster

formerly omicorio
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
this is quite a gross overestimation :

:ss/tapu-fini:
:ss/gliscor:
:ss/rotom-wash:
:ss/landorus-therian:

less slappable ones -
:ss/latias-mega:
:ss/hydreigon:
:ss/dragonite:
:ss/mew:
:ss/mantine:
:ss/skarmory: (need a rlly big reason on why ur not using corv here)

corv also doesnt lose to zone early if u dont play bad / have a bad team, or run shed shell and beat it until u get knocked the next turn !!

you also dont need fog on every team !!
If you use Defog Hydreigon there is going to be problems at hand :mad: (and dnite too I really want to know who uses dnite as a fogger)
 
If you use Defog Hydreigon there is going to be problems at hand :mad: (and dnite too I really want to know who uses dnite as a fogger)
Stall could use dnite as a defogger for roll compresion. Roost - defog - dwb - heal bell is a viable (kinda niche) option for it.

Also :ss/tapu-fini: dont like using defog to much in this gen bc defog clear is own terrain making vulnerable to status
 

adem

don't save her, she don't wanna be saved
is a Tutoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I'm pretty sure the problem is that Corviknight is leagues ahead of all the other defoggers (I think).
fini works extremely well on structures that have stuff like zap / ferro / non fog corv / multiple steel structures, and is really barely behind corv, being one of the few that can actually fog in front of tran.

washtom works best on faced paced offences where corv is just far too slow / covers roles already covered for them, and again, fogs in front of tran.

scarf lando compressing 20 million roles + actually offensively threatening all the rockers is huge, and a great speed control option too.

glisc fogging in front of tran is big, but definitely the worse out of the 4


out of the non slappable ones yeah corv is generally waaaaay better than all (kart and lati are much better than the rest), but they all have their niches, like lati and kart dealing with grounds, kart dealing with tar, etc.

we have enough foggers, and enough good foggers for sure really, corv isnt leagues ahead over a good half of them, some i even consider on par with it (fini)

Stall could use dnite as a defogger for roll compresion. Roost - defog - dwb - heal bell is a viable (kinda niche) option for it.
tmk dnite doesnt run this set for fog, something like ice beam is usually preferred, but im not that familiar with it, but yeah stall is the main one because it deals with grasses well, but its seen some use on really fat balances too.

Also :ss/tapu-fini: dont like using defog to much in this gen bc defog clear is own terrain making vulnerable to status
!dt taunt, but in all seriousness, most rockers with status you pressure out, and other slower mons like pex you can taunt
 
yahoo! when i find a post of a meta i love, first thing i do?

Post a Stupid Team! yaaaaaaaaaaay

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Shadow Ball
- Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind

Sandslash @ Normalium Z (run whatever z u want, but z is easily best)
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 108 Def / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Giga Impact

Hippowdon @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Rock Slide
- Whirlwind
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak

Latios @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 184 Def / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Zen Headbutt
- Shadow Claw

Greninja @ Leftovers
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt

My Bulky Offense Sandslash Team

Clef: standard CM set but with shadow ball. why? a very unresistable move with the benefit of giving Ghosts a scare. Plus the lower power soon wont matter, and normals are sparse as heck in the meta. Life orb for the oomph needed for a LOT of ko's.

Sandslash: like i said, darkinium, rockium, groundium, normalium... any z works. Stone edge and darkinium is the easier set, but z-ga impact shits on bulky waters that eat sedge. but when i face sticky web or intimi-spam, Z SD erasing all negative stat drops is hella useful.

Also before you hate on me for not using drill, i just use slash because i like it better. (also its physdef is absurd and it has dark coverage)

Hippo is self explanatory

Aegislash: WP is better, but LO is more fun. this is based off of a killer first blood set from ItsChew, but fully physical.

Latios: *Knock Knock* Umm, lemme answer this. *Creeeeeak* "YOU ARE HEADED STRAIGHT TO HELL MADAM"

*pulls out uno deck*

One Hidden Body Later

this has clutched so hard so many times. its gen 4 ddance gyara all over again, but this time more stupidly bulky! need i say more?

Greninja: Fast taunt, great power even without water stab, and Sub for switches.

thank you for readi- *knock knock*
 
yahoo! when i find a post of a meta i love, first thing i do?

Post a Stupid Team! yaaaaaaaaaaay

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Shadow Ball
- Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind

Sandslash @ Normalium Z (run whatever z u want, but z is easily best)
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 108 Def / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Giga Impact

Hippowdon @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Rock Slide
- Whirlwind
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak

Latios @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 184 Def / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Zen Headbutt
- Shadow Claw

Greninja @ Leftovers
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt

My Bulky Offense Sandslash Team

Clef: standard CM set but with shadow ball. why? a very unresistable move with the benefit of giving Ghosts a scare. Plus the lower power soon wont matter, and normals are sparse as heck in the meta. Life orb for the oomph needed for a LOT of ko's.

Sandslash: like i said, darkinium, rockium, groundium, normalium... any z works. Stone edge and darkinium is the easier set, but z-ga impact shits on bulky waters that eat sedge. but when i face sticky web or intimi-spam, Z SD erasing all negative stat drops is hella useful.

Also before you hate on me for not using drill, i just use slash because i like it better. (also its physdef is absurd and it has dark coverage)

Hippo is self explanatory

Aegislash: WP is better, but LO is more fun. this is based off of a killer first blood set from ItsChew, but fully physical.

Latios: *Knock Knock* Umm, lemme answer this. *Creeeeeak* "YOU ARE HEADED STRAIGHT TO HELL MADAM"

*pulls out uno deck*

One Hidden Body Later

this has clutched so hard so many times. its gen 4 ddance gyara all over again, but this time more stupidly bulky! need i say more?

Greninja: Fast taunt, great power even without water stab, and Sub for switches.

thank you for readi- *knock knock*
Im going to say here that this team here is unviable at anything but trolling. Sandslash has no redeeming qualities over the DRILL and knock off isn’t really needed, Hippowdon has no recovery and is therefore not good for much but setting sand, shadow ball on Clefable hits no important targets, unlike Moonblast, which has it problems fixed by flamethrower/mystical fire, and the EVs you’re using are pretty wonky. Shadow Claw on MLatios is not really doing anything here.

Also, this is a metagame discussion, not an RMT. Post teams here. https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ss-other-teams.546/
 
As a player who loves to play and create stall teams, I am naturally drawn toward the most common tiers of OU and National Dex, which is also where stall tends to be at its strongest. Generally stall is most common in National Dex, where the existence of Mega Sableye opens up the door to a very effective, (and somewhat annoying), form of hazard and status denying stall. The most notable effect of this is it allows the stall player to use Chansey over its more common OU evolution Blissey. The reason for this is simple. Chansey is able to use eviolite which makes it bulkier than Blissey, but because it lacks Heavy Duty Boots it is very easily worn down over the course of a long game. Mega Sableye can control hazards very effectively which allows Chansey to earn its place in National Dex stall.

The only issue however is that National Dex is much stronger, with megas and Z-moves pushing pokemon like Mawile or Kartana to new levels of strength. Because of the significantly higher power level there are many more threats to stall, most commonly, set up sweepers. In OU most generic setup sweepers can be checked by the likes of Corviknight, Haze Toxapex, or even Whirlwind Hippowdon. In Nat Dex though, there are Pokémon like Mega Charizard X, Z-Garchomp, and sometimes even a stray Calm Mind Z Tapu Lele. This means that many standard stall teams in Nat Dex are forced into running an Unaware Pokemon such as Quagsire or Clefable. At first this doesn’t seem like an issue, but it can create a large gap in teams.

Pokémon with Unaware (mostly Quagsire and Clefable) generally only serve as a check to sweepers and they are outclassed by other choices with similar typings/niches. For example, Quagsire is very good at walling the aforementioned Mega Charizard X, but it is near useless when it comes to being a general ground type wall. Something like Hippowdon is generally a safer pick for it’s better bulk, utility, (i.e. stealth rocks, whirlwind, etc), and a better typing. It’s also outclassed by Toxapex as a water type wall for many of the same reasons. Effectively it is wasting a slot, as it is only checking very specific Pokemon, and it performs way worse than other choices. Also, a main factor of stall is having a strong/consistent win condition. This is a Pokemon or strategy used as the primary way of KOing opposing Pokemon. Generally this is a strong wallbreaker/sweeper like Garchomp or even Kyurem, a pursuit trapper such as Weavile or Tyranitar, or in specific team compositions, more bulky Pokemon like Calm Mind Clefable or sometimes Swords Dance Gliscor. The problem here is that the added slot of an Unaware user takes that spot from that offensive presence in a lot of stall teams. Also using a Pokemon with Unaware means that generally the defensive core of a team will be more easily muscled through, and thus it makes the team a lot less flexible, and there will almost always be a specific Pokemon or type that your team will struggle to handle, (some common ones are Specs Tapu Lele, Heatran, Gliscor, Tapu Fini, etc).

So in reality, I think currently stall is best in OU because it can be built without the restriction of needing an Unaware user. Although it lacks the ability to use Mega Sableye, it also doesn’t have to worry about Z-moves and other megas. Because of this it can more easily fit everything it needs to wall as much of the metagame as possible.

So overall National Dex Stall is still effective ( and certainly fun) but requires a very strict set of Pokemon. It’s important to know the metagame very well whenever you attempt to build a stall team, and with Nat Dex it’s very important to make sure that you cover as many matchups and strategies as possible. If your looking to build or play stall for the first time OU stall is much easier to construct and play, and can be much more flexible and less demanding as a player. Good luck! And have fun stalling!! :)
 
Im going to say here that this team here is unviable at anything but trolling. Sandslash has no redeeming qualities over the DRILL and knock off isn’t really needed, Hippowdon has no recovery and is therefore not good for much but setting sand, shadow ball on Clefable hits no important targets, unlike Moonblast, which has it problems fixed by flamethrower/mystical fire, and the EVs you’re using are pretty wonky. Shadow Claw on MLatios is not really doing anything here.

Also, this is a metagame discussion, not an RMT. Post teams here. https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ss-other-teams.546/
Sandslash (pokepast.es) redid it

also fyi shadow ball is for a lot more neutral hits than moonblast
 
The case for a fair and legal Zen Mode
Its been quite some time since the Big 5 meta shift which saw Darmanitan-Galar removed from the tier, as you will see below all these dudes got yeeted.
:ss/metagross-mega: :sm/greninja-ash: :ss/urshifu:
:ss/darmanitan-galar: :ss/tornadus-therian:

This was certainly the biggest shift in our meta having 5 mons quick banned at once this process was done quickly and with less thought and consideration then a normal suspect test warrants and I feel Darmanitar-Galar had its ban misplaced. out of these five ash gren has already been freed and I believe darmanitan should also have its ban looked at more closely. The ability gorilla tactics is responsible entirely for the imbalance of this mon and should be given the same treatment as shadow tag, moody, and arena trap. Given that Zen-Mode represents a whole different form of the pokemon free from the brokenness of gorilla tactics, and one that is likely beneficial to our metagame I sugest we suspect test Zen Mode Darmanitan.

"Overall, Galarian Darmanitan has proved to be an unhealthy presence in the metagame and , therefore, been quickbanned from National Dex, but a retest is potentially on the table" - Sputnikk
:ss/darmanitan-galar-zen:
The majority of the brokenness that resulted in the original quickban lies in the fact it could run a choice band for an ability. Without the burden of the double choiced sets that terrorized the early meta game as the strongest cleaner available as well as a potent breaker hitting over 750 atk off the rip, a 33% decrease in power from the removal of gorilla tactics makes Zen GDarm a much more manageable mon checked by the majority of fat waters, easily revenged by the majority of the tier, couple this with horrible defensive typing and stealth rock weakness, mediocre speed tier where it is outsped by most common scarfers and general frailness and you have a mon certainly not deserving of natdex ubers among the likes of Magearna, Cinderace, Zygarde and Razor fang which were clearly too much for the tier.

:sm/eternatus-eternamax: :razor-fang: :ss/darmanitan-galar-zen: :sm/rayquaza-mega: :kings-rock: :sm/salamence-mega: :sm/magearna: :sm/genesect:


Definitely doesnt fit in with these guys above at all.


"But Muh tiering policy" (Complex Bans or sumthin) This is by far the worst argument against suspecting Zen Darm, considering the original big 5 ban actually included a complex ban! (you can run greninja, just not with battle bond) everyone was totally cool with the logic of that ban in terms of tiering policy. you can also run a Glalie, just not with moody, you can run a Dugtrio but not with arena trap and you can still run goth and wobb without shadow tag. Why cant we run Darmanitan-Galar just without Gorilla Tactics? this is not at all similar to saying "Toxapex but with no regenerator" or "Excadrill with no sand rush" since zen mode offers a form change and a different typing it should be treated like Greninja where protean and battle bond are viewed differently in terms of tiering, Zen Mode and gorilla tactics should also be treated as different mons.

:sm/remoraid: :sm/gothitelle: :sm/greninja-ash: :sm/glalie-mega: :ss/dugtrio: :ss/trapinch: :ss/darmanitan-galar-zen:

Just look at how happy it looks bouncing around with his totally not complex banned homies, this is where it belongs!


We should most definitely have a suspect on damanitan-galar and free the only Ice/Fire type that exists. For such a unique typing its a shame for it to be unviable in any tier when it may offer a niche to Natdex OU in a competitive and fair way. if we happen to find that its still too strong for Natdex OU in its zen form (which I view as highly unlikely given how Blazikens recent suspect test went) so be it but it atleast deserves a shot.
 
you can run greninja, just not with battle bond) everyone was totally cool with the logic of that ban in terms of tiering policy.
Battle Bond as an ability was banned, not ''Greninja is banned but only with battle bond''. this is the same case as for example banning Zygarde Complete, Power Construct is what's needed to transform so the ability is banned. this is not a complex ban.

:sm/remoraid: :sm/gothitelle: :sm/greninja-ash: :sm/glalie-mega: :ss/dugtrio: :ss/trapinch: :ss/darmanitan-galar-zen:

Just look at how happy it looks bouncing around with his totally not complex banned homies, this is where it belongs!
Same for this. These are all not complex bans. Moody, Shadow Tag, Battle Bond and Arena Trap were banned as a whole and not on specific pokemon. also kinda confused why you included mega glalie in here, but maybe because regular glalie has moody? idk.

Basically galardarm-zen cant be unbanned without unbanning galar darm itself and therefore it's not possible to do so unless we go with the route of complex banning which we should never do lol
 
Battle Bond as an ability was banned, not ''Greninja is banned but only with battle bond''. this is the same case as for example banning Zygarde Complete, Power Construct is what's needed to transform so the ability is banned. this is not a complex ban.

Im saying why dont we Ban gorilla tactics as an ability then unban damanitan galar itself, since it can only run zen mode otherwise and would definitely not be broken.

Same for this. These are all not complex bans. Moody, Shadow Tag, Battle Bond and Arena Trap were banned as a whole and not on specific pokemon. also kinda confused why you included mega glalie in here, but maybe because regular glalie has moody? idk.

Basically galardarm-zen cant be unbanned without unbanning galar darm itself and therefore it's not possible to do so unless we go with the route of complex banning which we should never do lol

it can be done exactly the same way as greninja, Gorilla Tactics as an ability was banned, not ''Damanitan-G is banned but only with Gorilla Tactics" this is not a complex ban. You restrict a mon which can run a broken ability from running it by banning the ability, it doesnt matter if only one mon gets this ability because grens the only mon with battle bond but it was done anyways and it also doesnt matter if the ability is actually "inherently broken" in a vacuum because battle bond was actually Unbanned for not being inherently broken once the meta settled down and checks were less pressured. Tiering logic that is not only unhelpful to the tier which imo is supposed to be somewhere that includes as many mons as possible considering otherwise id just go play Gen8OU but also inconsistent is no reason not to suspect zen mode.
 
it can be done exactly the same way as greninja, Gorilla Tactics as an ability was banned, not ''Damanitan-G is banned but only with Gorilla Tactics" this is not a complex ban. You restrict a mon which can run a broken ability from running it by banning the ability, it doesnt matter if only one mon gets this ability because grens the only mon with battle bond but it was done anyways and it also doesnt matter if the ability is actually "inherently broken" in a vacuum because battle bond was actually Unbanned for not being inherently broken once the meta settled down and checks were less pressured. Tiering logic that is not only unhelpful to the tier which imo is supposed to be somewhere that includes as many mons as possible considering otherwise id just go play Gen8OU but also inconsistent is no reason not to suspect zen mode.
i get where your confusion comes from but listen

you don't start off the battle as ash greninja. you start off as regular greninja. regular greninja isnt banned, therefore it's possible to keep battle bond banned and not make it complex.

you start off the battle as galardarm. galardarm is banned, so it's impossible to only have galardarm-zen allowed since you'd have to start the battle with galardarm, which is a banned pokemon.

for example, should regular greninja ever be banned, ash greninja would also have to go by technicality. same reason as the current galardarm situation. hope this made things clear
 
i get where your confusion comes from but listen

you don't start off the battle as ash greninja. you start off as regular greninja. regular greninja isnt banned, therefore it's possible to keep battle bond banned and not make it complex.

you start off the battle as galardarm. galardarm is banned, so it's impossible to only have galardarm-zen allowed since you'd have to start the battle with galardarm, which is a banned pokemon.

for example, should regular greninja ever be banned, ash greninja would also have to go by technicality. same reason as the current galardarm situation. hope this made things clear
I understand how the tiering works now where galar-darmanitan is banned, i Just think its wrong for it to be done that way hence the whole point of making this post, I feel the original ban wasnt given near enough consideration given the metagame climate at the time and the ability ban route makes much more sense to me given how base darmg is not broken without gorilla tactics, base darm with zenmode is by no means a pokemon that deserves to be banned from the tier and as Sputnikk said in the original ban post it could be up for a retest at some point. I understand base gdarm is required to form chage into zen and you cant just run zen from the teambuilder however with the broken ability gorilla tactics banned regular gdarm with the form change should by every means be legal or atleast suspect worthy. Even if such a ban (one broken ability on all the pokemon that get that ability) was considered a complex ban plenty of tiers have implemented much more complex bans than what i am proposing and to beneficial effect (i can remember baton pass + speed boost, heal pulse + leppa berry + recycle, and drizzle + swift swim being banned from tiers). This is no different then how greninja existed without battle bond before the unban and zygarde existed without power construct, just the brokenness lies in the non-transformative ability for gdarm rather than the transformative one. Banning one ability that is broken on every single pokemon that gets it is not a complex ban, and just because the previous ban was done that in a way where base gdarm is illegal rn before doesnt mean its right and should stay that way.
 
Last edited:
btw how does this differ from power construct for zygarde 10%, just curious. The clause reasoning is totally confusing, is there a thread or something that I can read up on further.
Edit: another thing that just came to mind, what about zama-c suspect in ou, does that work cuz it's a different form due to an item pre-battle, do item transformations have their own rules for bans such as soul dew, it's all rly confusing to me, would love to know more on the topic.
 
Last edited:
I understand how the tiering works now where galar-darmanitan is banned, i Just think its wrong for it to be done that way hence the whole point of making this post, I feel the original ban wasnt given near enough consideration given the metagame climate at the time and the ability ban route makes much more sense to me given how base darmg is not broken without gorilla tactics, base darm with zenmode is by no means a pokemon that deserves to be banned from the tier and as Sputnikk said in the original ban post it could be up for a retest at some point. I understand base gdarm is required to form chage into zen and you cant just run zen from the teambuilder however with the broken ability gorilla tactics banned regular gdarm with the form change should by every means be legal or atleast suspect worthy. Even if such a ban (one broken ability on all the pokemon that get that ability) was considered a complex ban plenty of tiers have implemented much more complex bans than what i am proposing and to beneficial effect (i can remember baton pass + speed boost, heal pulse + leppa berry + recycle, and drizzle + swift swim being banned from tiers). This is no different then how greninja existed without battle bond before the unban and zygarde existed without power construct, just the brokenness lies in the non-transformative ability for gdarm rather than the transformative one. Banning one ability that is broken on every single pokemon that gets it is not a complex ban, and just because the previous ban was done that in a way where base gdarm is illegal rn before doesnt mean its right and should stay that way.
i’d advice you to make a thread in the policy review thread if you think tiering like this isn’t correct and should be changed, but it’s definitely not something to discuss here as the council has very little to say about this currently tbh
 

TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
is a Pre-Contributor
I understand how the tiering works now where galar-darmanitan is banned, i Just think its wrong for it to be done that way hence the whole point of making this post, I feel the original ban wasnt given near enough consideration given the metagame climate at the time and the ability ban route makes much more sense to me given how base darmg is not broken without gorilla tactics, base darm with zenmode is by no means a pokemon that deserves to be banned from the tier and as Sputnikk said in the original ban post it could be up for a retest at some point. I understand base gdarm is required to form chage into zen and you cant just run zen from the teambuilder however with the broken ability gorilla tactics banned regular gdarm with the form change should by every means be legal or atleast suspect worthy. Even if such a ban (one broken ability on all the pokemon that get that ability) was considered a complex ban plenty of tiers have implemented much more complex bans than what i am proposing and to beneficial effect (i can remember baton pass + speed boost, heal pulse + leppa berry + recycle, and drizzle + swift swim being banned from tiers). This is no different then how greninja existed without battle bond before the unban and zygarde existed without power construct, just the brokenness lies in the non-transformative ability for gdarm rather than the transformative one. Banning one ability that is broken on every single pokemon that gets it is not a complex ban, and just because the previous ban was done that in a way where base gdarm is illegal rn before doesnt mean its right and should stay that way.
The thing is that Gorilla Tactics is not in its own right a broken ability - it's just a terrible version of Huge Power, which has never broken Diggersby or Azumarill. It's the combination of the ability being on a Pokemon with massive base Attack, decent Speed, and a good typing and movepool to utilise it that causes Galarian Darmanitan to be banned.

This situation is not the same as Battle Bond Greninja and Power Construct Zygarde either, as they are actually considered by the game files to be different Pokemon: regular Greninja has Torrent in the first two ability slots and Protean in the third, while Ash-Greninja has Battle Bond in all three ability slots, and a different movepool. Zygarde with Power Construct is considered a different Pokemon to Zygarde with Aura Break in the game files too.
 

Jho

is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Moderator
btw how does this differ from power construct for zygarde 10%, just curious. The clause reasoning is totally confusing, is there a thread or something that I can read up on further.
Edit: another thing that just came to mind, what about zama-c suspect in ou, does that work cuz it's a different form due to an item pre-battle, do item transformations have their own rules for bans such as soul dew, it's all rly confusing to me, would love to know more on the topic.
Zamazenta-C had a whole policy discussion around it since it is technically Zamazenta-H before it is sent out, just holding a Rusted Shield. However, since it will never functionally be in its Hero form, it was decided that it could be tiered separately. The thread regarding all of that can be found here.
 
The thing is that Gorilla Tactics is not in its own right a broken ability - it's just a terrible version of Huge Power, which has never broken Diggersby or Azumarill. It's the combination of the ability being on a Pokemon with massive base Attack, decent Speed, and a good typing and movepool to utilise it that causes Galarian Darmanitan to be banned.

This situation is not the same as Battle Bond Greninja and Power Construct Zygarde either, as they are actually considered by the game files to be different Pokemon: regular Greninja has Torrent in the first two ability slots and Protean in the third, while Ash-Greninja has Battle Bond in all three ability slots, and a different movepool. Zygarde with Power Construct is considered a different Pokemon to Zygarde with Aura Break in the game files too.
On the first point about huge power, yes huge power is not broken on the mons that receive it, however as almost all OMs that let you pick abilities have found out huge power is rediculous when given to anything outside its small distribution, gamefreak naturally balances these abilities out by giving them to pokemon that are absolutely useless offensively without it. Distribution matters when discussing broken abilities, and Gorilla tactics has a distribution where it is unhealthy and broken on everything that gets it, huge power while being a strictly more broken version of tactics is given to mons with base 50s atk or that cant hold an item, gamefreak actually correctly balanced the ability Huge Power but didnt for Gorilla Tactics as practice has shown. Extremely strong abilities like Water Bubble, Huge Power, Wonder Guard and Stakeout have always been balanced through their distribution and when game freak created gorilla tactics I dont think they intended it to be just a "less broken version of huge power" as they certainly didnt take any of the usual steps when balancing a huge power mon. When considering the questions "is this ability broken on everything that gets it?" "are these pokemon still broken without this ability?" I feel that sample should include only Darm G not Azumarill, Diggersby and MMaw/MMedi

On the game coding point, is zen mode not coded similarly to power construct? iirc they both trigger at the same event if hp < 50% then do form change, from a coding perspective this is certainly a situation where most devs would recycle code, you would assume darmanitan is coded similarly although I have no idea.
 
Extremely strong abilities like Water Bubble, Huge Power, Wonder Guard and Stakeout have always been balanced through their distribution and when game freak created gorilla tactics I dont think they intended it to be just a "less broken version of huge power" as they certainly didnt take any of the usual steps when balancing a huge power mon. When considering the questions "is this ability broken on everything that gets it?" "are these pokemon still broken without this ability?" I feel that sample should include only Darm G not Azumarill, Diggersby and MMaw/MMedi
I don't think it makes sense to say that you can only evaluate G-Darm and it's technically true that Gorilla Tactics makes every Pokemon that gets it broken. If Scorbunny and Raboot didn't get Libero, it would be technically true that Libero makes every Pokemon that gets it broken. But it still would be pretty clearly silly to ban Libero and not Cinderace, because Greninja and Kecleon have an identical ability and are not considered broken. On the flip side, if Darumaka-G got Gorilla Tactics instead of Hustle, would it suddenly be unjustifiable to ban Gorilla Tactics, since there exists a Pokemon that has the ability and is not broken? I think that the criteria of "makes anything that receives it broken/uncompetitive" for banning moves/abilities instead of Pokemon shouldn't just be interpreted literally.

I'm pretty sure that for a move/ability to be banned, the effects of the ability have to far outweigh the other properties of a Pokemon that make it broken. While Gorilla Tactics does not have a direct parallel (like with Libero), I don't think comparisons to similar abilities are inapplicable. Disregarding Huge Power, there is another ability to compare it to: Hustle. Unlike the non-Mega Huge Power users, Durant, Dracozolt, and Flapple all have attack stats that would be deemed reasonable for a Pokemon designed to be a physical attacker. While Hustle is somewhat inferior to Gorilla Tactics, I would say that the pressure exerted is similar, since you have to play around it as if the attacks would hit. None of those three Pokemon are broken with Hustle, and none of them would be broken (or even improved by all that much) with Gorilla Tactics.

Arena Trap/Shadow Tag are different, since (in my opinion) literally 80+% of Pokemon would be broken with it if they had it. Many attackers would be able become highly customizable trappers, and anything with half-decent bulk can easily PP stall walls with Rest + Confide + <other high PP status moves> (and since Rest and Confide are nearly universally distributed, the moveset of the Pokemon does not matter that much). Similarly, with Moody, all a Pokemon really needs is Substitute + Protect (which almost every Pokemon has), other moves like Taunt are helpful but not strictly necessary to achieve the uncompetitive result (like Glalie, which is ZU without the ability). Gorilla Tactics is a strong ability, but whether or not it's broken still depends on stats, typing, moves, etc to much more of a degree than the brokenness of Arena Trap/Shadow Tag depend on those qualities.

Edit: Made a few minor phrasing changes
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top