Resource National Dex Metagame Discussion v2

Apologies for derailing this current discussion about tiering philosophy with Abilities and Forms, but I'd like to bring up a ban that I believe that was incredibly dependent on the current state of the metagame at the time.
Tornadus-Therian


I'll divide my thoughts about this Pokemon into three sections and explain why I think that it desperately deserves a retest in the current National Dex metagame.

Tornadus's quickban was carried out to due to the prevalence and "splashability of it's bulky Defog set" and the "strength of it's offensive sets". Additionally, it was cited that Tornadus-Therian's access to Regenerator and Knock Off allowed it to force progress throughout the match. It was also able to adapt to metagame trends thanks to Z-moves and techs like Heat Wave and Focus Blast. I don't think these reasonings are still sound in the current state of the metagame, as there are several key metagame changes that have considerably weakened the punishing effects of Tornadus-Therian's kit. For one, the same defensive cores cited in Tornadus-Therian's ban reasoning are not staples in balance and bulky offense builds anymore. Secondly, the existence of both Mega Stones and Z-moves mean that Tornadus is not guaranteed to remove an opponent's item. Megas like Tyranitar, Latias, Mawile, Diancie, and Scizor, and prominent Z-move users like Heatran, Garchomp, and Magnezone are all able to stave off the effects of Knock Off. The rise of Weavile and Tapu Koko also gives Tornadus-Therian trouble, as Weavile can force constant 50/50s with Triple Axel and Pursuit and Tapu Koko outspeeds and threatens an OHKO on Torn, as well as having the defensive typing to switch into Torn with impunity. Of course, Tornadus-Therian has the means to punish these checks depending on the set, but that cannot be the main reason why we should keep it banned as various other Pokemon like Kartana and Diancie share this same attribute. Tornadus sacrifices accounting for other threats by focusing its moveslot to lure some of it's checks, as well as passing up on utility. Additionally, it was also stated that Tornadus-Therian was a key enabler in creating opportunities for Pokemon like Darm-G and Urshifu-S. These Pokemon do not exist in the metagame anymore, so I fail to see how this reasoning would apply to the current state of the metagame. Additionally, the Pokemon listed were broken in their own right. It's arguably unfair that Tornadus-Therian was not assessed at a later date to see if it's adverse effects on the metagame would diminish to a point where it could be deemed as a healthy addition to the metagame.
A potential retest was already acknowledged by the Council in the Council Minutes thread.
The main focus of our discussions these past few weeks has been on the bans that happened a little while ago now, and specifically on which Pokemon of the 5 banned ones should be the first subject of a retest. The two Pokemon that were brought up as a potential first retest were Ash Greninja and Tornadus-Therian. For Tornadus-T, we generally acknowledge that it would be extremely good in the current metagame, but our belief is that with some of its best checks in Zapdos and Toxapex being extremely common currently, it would not be hard to fit answers to Tornadus-T onto teams. On top of this, other checks to Tornadus-T are also more common now than they were prior to the bans, Pokemon like Magearna and Mega Tyranitar for example. Of course all of these Pokemon can be overwhelmed by the correct Tornadus-T set, however, it does have to pick and choose which checks it can beat and compromise its performance against everything else if it wants to beat these Pokemon. All of this leads us to believe that of all the Pokemon that could be retested first, Tornadus-T does appear to us to be the potentially least problematic.

It was also noted that Tornadus-T solves a lot of problems in the metagame, most notably the lack of strong removal options in the metagame. While unbanning something to address issues in the metagame is generally not how smogon does tiering, we do believe that Tornadus-T would bring more positives than negatives to the metagame should it be unbanned and its for this reasons we unanimously thought Tornadus-T should be the first Pokemon to be retested.

Pokemon that have been bought up for this are the remaining Pokemon from the council bans after DLC1, specifically Tornadus-T and Urshifu-S, as well as other options such as Blaziken and Zamazenta-C.
Tornadus-Therian hasn't been retested for over a year, so I think it's around the appropriate time to conduct one since the metagame has recently just settled from the Blaziken suspect.


A strong anti-unban argument is Tornadus-Therian's newfound access to Nasty Plot. This can potentially push Tornadus over the edge by virtue of it's Z-move sets, allowing it to blow past traditional checks after +2. It's access to Regenerator gives it unrivaled longevity for a wallbreaker of that caliber, which could very well prove to be too much for the metagame. I still think Tornadus-Therian should be given a fair retest however, as it could solve a decent amount of issues in the metagame, as it would offer the metagame a Defogger on the same level as Corviknight. It would offer a splashable check to Landorus-Therian, Kartana, Lopunny, Rillaboom, Tapu Bulu, etc.

The main point of this post was to bring attention to Torn and spark discussion about it, so what do you guys think? Should Torn be retested or not? And if so, would you vote to keep it banned or unban it?
 
Apologies for derailing this current discussion about tiering philosophy with Abilities and Forms, but I'd like to bring up a ban that I believe that was incredibly dependent on the current state of the metagame at the time.
Tornadus-Therian


I'll divide my thoughts about this Pokemon into three sections and explain why I think that it desperately deserves a retest in the current National Dex metagame.

Tornadus's quickban was carried out to due to the prevalence and "splashability of it's bulky Defog set" and the "strength of it's offensive sets". Additionally, it was cited that Tornadus-Therian's access to Regenerator and Knock Off allowed it to force progress throughout the match. It was also able to adapt to metagame trends thanks to Z-moves and techs like Heat Wave and Focus Blast. I don't think these reasonings are still sound in the current state of the metagame, as there are several key metagame changes that have considerably weakened the punishing effects of Tornadus-Therian's kit. For one, the same defensive cores cited in Tornadus-Therian's ban reasoning are not staples in balance and bulky offense builds anymore. Secondly, the existence of both Mega Stones and Z-moves mean that Tornadus is not guaranteed to remove an opponent's item. Megas like Tyranitar, Latias, Mawile, Diancie, and Scizor, and prominent Z-move users like Heatran, Garchomp, and Magnezone are all able to stave off the effects of Knock Off. The rise of Weavile and Tapu Koko also gives Tornadus-Therian trouble, as Weavile can force constant 50/50s with Triple Axel and Pursuit and Tapu Koko outspeeds and threatens an OHKO on Torn, as well as having the defensive typing to switch into Torn with impunity. Of course, Tornadus-Therian has the means to punish these checks depending on the set, but that cannot be the main reason why we should keep it banned as various other Pokemon like Kartana and Diancie share this same attribute. Tornadus sacrifices accounting for other threats by focusing its moveslot to lure some of it's checks, as well as passing up on utility. Additionally, it was also stated that Tornadus-Therian was a key enabler in creating opportunities for Pokemon like Darm-G and Urshifu-S. These Pokemon do not exist in the metagame anymore, so I fail to see how this reasoning would apply to the current state of the metagame. Additionally, the Pokemon listed were broken in their own right. It's arguably unfair that Tornadus-Therian was not assessed at a later date to see if it's adverse effects on the metagame would diminish to a point where it could be deemed as a healthy addition to the metagame.
A potential retest was already acknowledged by the Council in the Council Minutes thread.


Tornadus-Therian hasn't been retested for over a year, so I think it's around the appropriate time to conduct one since the metagame has recently just settled from the Blaziken suspect.

A strong anti-unban argument is Tornadus-Therian's newfound access to Nasty Plot. This can potentially push Tornadus over the edge by virtue of it's Z-move sets, allowing it to blow past traditional checks after +2. It's access to Regenerator gives it unrivaled longevity for a wallbreaker of that caliber, which could very well prove to be too much for the metagame. I still think Tornadus-Therian should be given a fair retest however, as it could solve a decent amount of issues in the metagame, as it would offer the metagame a Defogger on the same level as Corviknight. It would offer a splashable check to Landorus-Therian, Kartana, Lopunny, Rillaboom, Tapu Bulu, etc.

The main point of this post was to bring attention to Torn and spark discussion about it, so what do you guys think? Should Torn be retested or not? And if so, would you vote to keep it banned or unban it?
The main reason I disagree with Tornadus T’s unban is the Nasty Plot+ Fightinium Z set. It’s unwallable for everything but Aegislash, who hates getting knocked by utility variants. Is addition, unlike other “unwallable” threats like Hoopa, it doesn’t have any huge exploitable weaknesses and can’t be dealt with by chipping it and forcing it out repeatedly. It also has little problem hitting the field thanks to its ground immunity and pretty good bulk. That one variant alone would cause an unimaginable strain on the team builder, so I would say a definite NO to letting this thing back in Natdex OU.
 
Apologies for derailing this current discussion about tiering philosophy with Abilities and Forms, but I'd like to bring up a ban that I believe that was incredibly dependent on the current state of the metagame at the time.
Tornadus-Therian


I'll divide my thoughts about this Pokemon into three sections and explain why I think that it desperately deserves a retest in the current National Dex metagame.

Tornadus's quickban was carried out to due to the prevalence and "splashability of it's bulky Defog set" and the "strength of it's offensive sets". Additionally, it was cited that Tornadus-Therian's access to Regenerator and Knock Off allowed it to force progress throughout the match. It was also able to adapt to metagame trends thanks to Z-moves and techs like Heat Wave and Focus Blast. I don't think these reasonings are still sound in the current state of the metagame, as there are several key metagame changes that have considerably weakened the punishing effects of Tornadus-Therian's kit. For one, the same defensive cores cited in Tornadus-Therian's ban reasoning are not staples in balance and bulky offense builds anymore. Secondly, the existence of both Mega Stones and Z-moves mean that Tornadus is not guaranteed to remove an opponent's item. Megas like Tyranitar, Latias, Mawile, Diancie, and Scizor, and prominent Z-move users like Heatran, Garchomp, and Magnezone are all able to stave off the effects of Knock Off. The rise of Weavile and Tapu Koko also gives Tornadus-Therian trouble, as Weavile can force constant 50/50s with Triple Axel and Pursuit and Tapu Koko outspeeds and threatens an OHKO on Torn, as well as having the defensive typing to switch into Torn with impunity. Of course, Tornadus-Therian has the means to punish these checks depending on the set, but that cannot be the main reason why we should keep it banned as various other Pokemon like Kartana and Diancie share this same attribute. Tornadus sacrifices accounting for other threats by focusing its moveslot to lure some of it's checks, as well as passing up on utility. Additionally, it was also stated that Tornadus-Therian was a key enabler in creating opportunities for Pokemon like Darm-G and Urshifu-S. These Pokemon do not exist in the metagame anymore, so I fail to see how this reasoning would apply to the current state of the metagame. Additionally, the Pokemon listed were broken in their own right. It's arguably unfair that Tornadus-Therian was not assessed at a later date to see if it's adverse effects on the metagame would diminish to a point where it could be deemed as a healthy addition to the metagame.
A potential retest was already acknowledged by the Council in the Council Minutes thread.


Tornadus-Therian hasn't been retested for over a year, so I think it's around the appropriate time to conduct one since the metagame has recently just settled from the Blaziken suspect.

A strong anti-unban argument is Tornadus-Therian's newfound access to Nasty Plot. This can potentially push Tornadus over the edge by virtue of it's Z-move sets, allowing it to blow past traditional checks after +2. It's access to Regenerator gives it unrivaled longevity for a wallbreaker of that caliber, which could very well prove to be too much for the metagame. I still think Tornadus-Therian should be given a fair retest however, as it could solve a decent amount of issues in the metagame, as it would offer the metagame a Defogger on the same level as Corviknight. It would offer a splashable check to Landorus-Therian, Kartana, Lopunny, Rillaboom, Tapu Bulu, etc.

The main point of this post was to bring attention to Torn and spark discussion about it, so what do you guys think? Should Torn be retested or not? And if so, would you vote to keep it banned or unban it?
A Tornadus-Therian suspect test doesn't sound like the worst thing ever, it's definitely a Pokemon you could make some interesting discussions about. But in my opinion, Tornadus-Therian should stay banned

My main problem with Tornadus-T is that on paper, the nasty plot set really doesn't have any counters when you take the different z moves it can run into consideration.. It has an incredible movepool that can fit nearly every single tech option you could think of to fish for wins against specific mons that would counter specific sets. It has no viable counters, because nothing really switches in, takes a hit and threatens it out multiple times over the course of a match. The two closest mons I can think of are Blissey(Chansey) and Zapdos, who get ko'd by fightinium and flyinium respectively aftersome relatively minor chip.

An argument against this is heavy duty boots, but my counterargument is that Blissey and Zapdos don't have any passive healing and take blows pretty often, especially Blissey. Having to keep your blanket special wall or U-Turn sponge in pristine condition just to safely beat a singular pokemon doesn't seem very competitive.


In general I don't see defog being problematic, sure it has a crazy movepool and can mix and match to fish for everything and knock off guaranteeing that it will always do something makes it incredibly obnoxious. But just that, obnoxious and not broken.

What I do find stupid is that defog can cover for Nasty Plot. I can understand that depending on playstyle and teamstyle it can be very easy to tell which set it is, so this is more of a personal gripe. But I find it really annoying when I expect a mon to be one set and it turns out it's the other and I lose because of that.


I don't think I should have to talk about how bulky this thing is with investment, so I'll just go right into how the Nasty Plot set isn't as paper frail as I've seen some people say. It Rarely gets ohkod by Strong Neutral Stab moves, one example being pre ash choice specs hydro pump, which does 98.6% max. Most choice scarfers don't onko it unless they can hit it super effectively (hell scarf lando only has a 68.8% chance to ohko with stone edge). This mon gets a large amount of setup opportunities and thanks to regenerator, taking minor chip isn't really going to affect it much. Hell if your opponent sacks something to bring in a revenge killer, you can just switch and have Torn still be in pristine condition.


252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 210-247 (70.2 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 250-295 (83.6 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian in Rain: 262-310 (87.6 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 207-244 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 258-306 (86.2 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 282-334 (94.3 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Flavor calc
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 294-346 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Note: Most neutral priority moves bar sucker punch do low to high 40's high roll and sucker does around 60-75, just a quick note.



Tl;dr: Pls don't unban I can't kill it and it 6-0's me ;-;​
 
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Apologies for derailing this current discussion about tiering philosophy with Abilities and Forms, but I'd like to bring up a ban that I believe that was incredibly dependent on the current state of the metagame at the time.
Tornadus-Therian


I'll divide my thoughts about this Pokemon into three sections and explain why I think that it desperately deserves a retest in the current National Dex metagame.

Tornadus's quickban was carried out to due to the prevalence and "splashability of it's bulky Defog set" and the "strength of it's offensive sets". Additionally, it was cited that Tornadus-Therian's access to Regenerator and Knock Off allowed it to force progress throughout the match. It was also able to adapt to metagame trends thanks to Z-moves and techs like Heat Wave and Focus Blast. I don't think these reasonings are still sound in the current state of the metagame, as there are several key metagame changes that have considerably weakened the punishing effects of Tornadus-Therian's kit. For one, the same defensive cores cited in Tornadus-Therian's ban reasoning are not staples in balance and bulky offense builds anymore. Secondly, the existence of both Mega Stones and Z-moves mean that Tornadus is not guaranteed to remove an opponent's item. Megas like Tyranitar, Latias, Mawile, Diancie, and Scizor, and prominent Z-move users like Heatran, Garchomp, and Magnezone are all able to stave off the effects of Knock Off. The rise of Weavile and Tapu Koko also gives Tornadus-Therian trouble, as Weavile can force constant 50/50s with Triple Axel and Pursuit and Tapu Koko outspeeds and threatens an OHKO on Torn, as well as having the defensive typing to switch into Torn with impunity. Of course, Tornadus-Therian has the means to punish these checks depending on the set, but that cannot be the main reason why we should keep it banned as various other Pokemon like Kartana and Diancie share this same attribute. Tornadus sacrifices accounting for other threats by focusing its moveslot to lure some of it's checks, as well as passing up on utility. Additionally, it was also stated that Tornadus-Therian was a key enabler in creating opportunities for Pokemon like Darm-G and Urshifu-S. These Pokemon do not exist in the metagame anymore, so I fail to see how this reasoning would apply to the current state of the metagame. Additionally, the Pokemon listed were broken in their own right. It's arguably unfair that Tornadus-Therian was not assessed at a later date to see if it's adverse effects on the metagame would diminish to a point where it could be deemed as a healthy addition to the metagame.
A potential retest was already acknowledged by the Council in the Council Minutes thread.


Tornadus-Therian hasn't been retested for over a year, so I think it's around the appropriate time to conduct one since the metagame has recently just settled from the Blaziken suspect.

A strong anti-unban argument is Tornadus-Therian's newfound access to Nasty Plot. This can potentially push Tornadus over the edge by virtue of it's Z-move sets, allowing it to blow past traditional checks after +2. It's access to Regenerator gives it unrivaled longevity for a wallbreaker of that caliber, which could very well prove to be too much for the metagame. I still think Tornadus-Therian should be given a fair retest however, as it could solve a decent amount of issues in the metagame, as it would offer the metagame a Defogger on the same level as Corviknight. It would offer a splashable check to Landorus-Therian, Kartana, Lopunny, Rillaboom, Tapu Bulu, etc.

The main point of this post was to bring attention to Torn and spark discussion about it, so what do you guys think? Should Torn be retested or not? And if so, would you vote to keep it banned or unban it?
I don't have much to add to this fantastic post, other than just my support for suspecting Tornadus-T. I think it's honestly ridiculous so many people are against suspecting it again based on how the meta was a year ago. The meta is in a stable state right now and I think suspecting a mon like Tornadus-T will do nothing but spark innovation in this tier. I highly doubt this mon is actually broken, and instead think it's something that the meta can easily adapt to which is why I think it's more than deserving of a suspect.
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor to Smogon
:ss/tornadus-therian:
I'm in agreement that Torn-T should get retested at some point in the future (although we should wait until after NDPL in my opinion) but I also feel that a lot of people are grossly underestimating this thing and misunderstanding what made Torn-T broken in the first place.

Tornadus's quickban was carried out to due to the prevalence and "splashability of it's bulky Defog set" and the "strength of it's offensive sets". Additionally, it was cited that Tornadus-Therian's access to Regenerator and Knock Off allowed it to force progress throughout the match. It was also able to adapt to metagame trends thanks to Z-moves and techs like Heat Wave and Focus Blast. I don't think these reasonings are still sound in the current state of the metagame, as there are several key metagame changes that have considerably weakened the punishing effects of Tornadus-Therian's kit. For one, the same defensive cores cited in Tornadus-Therian's ban reasoning are not staples in balance and bulky offense builds anymore. Secondly, the existence of both Mega Stones and Z-moves mean that Tornadus is not guaranteed to remove an opponent's item. Megas like Tyranitar, Latias, Mawile, Diancie, and Scizor, and prominent Z-move users like Heatran, Garchomp, and Magnezone are all able to stave off the effects of Knock Off. The rise of Weavile and Tapu Koko also gives Tornadus-Therian trouble, as Weavile can force constant 50/50s with Triple Axel and Pursuit and Tapu Koko outspeeds and threatens an OHKO on Torn, as well as having the defensive typing to switch into Torn with impunity.
I will use this section of this post to illustrate the first part of my point. Pivot Tornadus-T might seem weaker in a vacuum overall thanks to the aforementioned Pokemon. These Pokemon do switch into pivot Torn-T...kind of. It's true that they come in on Knock Off (and many of them Hurricane) with impunity.

What people forget is that Torn-T is resilient and really fast.

These Pokemon switch into Hurricane or Knock Off, say, and take minor chip. None of the aforementioned Megas or Z users outspeed Torn-T. Torn proceeds to freely pivot out of these threats with almost no punishment and start over. A lot of these specific Megas are not as great as they once were, either, and a lot of teams can afford to give these Pokemon a free turn or two. In terms of Z-move users, they have no recovery, and switching directly into Torn-T is very risky for most of the non-Steel types...which Torn-T can U-turn on and force progress on immediately. Pivot Torn-T makes progress endlessly against many teams not running an Electric-type. Even Zapdos doesn't like getting Knocked at all (although the risk of Static para is high for the Torn-T user), and Zeraora and Tapu Koko don't appreciate it either. Not to mention the confusion chance of Hurricane, which is a very real and very irritating part of Torn-T's game.

People also forget that Pivot Torn is an immensely flexible mon that has multiple moves at its disposal, as it can run Taunt to mess with defensive Pokes, and it can even occasionally run Heat Wave to lure certain Steels. It doesn't even have to run Boots; remember, the Regenerating, fast Torn can stay healthy even without them even if Rocks are on the field, albeit this does require careful play. Rocky Helmet can be used to punish physical mons such as Rillaboom, Kartana, and Scarf Lando, and it can even run Flyinium Z to annihilate chipped offensive grounds attempting to get Rocks up. Also Weavile isn't exactly a stopper to Torn; Pursuit doesn't do enough to cripple Boots sets long term and Weavile isn't exactly renowned for its longevity. Also Weavile obviously can't switch in like, at all. This makes Torn-T fantastic at forcing Knock Off onto a ton of stuff as well; Pex works fine as a pivot into it in a vacuum, but it gets Knocked in the process, and Pex really doesn't want to eat Knock if it doesn't have to.

This hasn't even gotten into offensive Z-move sets. It is true we have revenge killers for these, but they were hard to switch into even before Nasty Plot was in the picture and they are downright menacing now. Fightinium Z can be used to lure TTar and many steels, while Firium has a similar effect while also nuking some other targets such as Mega Scizor.

Now lets take a look at Nasty Plot. It's been mentioned that Fight Z at +2 is essentially unwallable, and even Aegislash isn't a fantastic answer considering +2 Hurricane has a really good chance to 2HKO offensive variants after rocks, and that's assuming its Shield Form. +2 Flyinium is also capable of some flat out obscene things; OHKOing Knocked Zapdos after rocks (defensive Zapdos doesn't OHKO back either), OHKOing Mega Diancie, and even allowing Torn-T to take care of Corviknight without using Heat Wave, as +2 Supersonic Skystrike into Focus Blast takes care of even heavily Specially Defensive invested Corviknight. The same goes for Blissey, which just drops to two +2 Focus Blasts anyway. And forget about pivoting around it via naturally bulky Pokemon; Pex and friends are all deleted, and it can theoretically fit Taunt to just remove this as a possibility entirely. I'm not even going to get into the benefits that Rain offers Torn-T. And, again, it has Regenerator and is fast, and it has decent natural bulk even without investment, so setting up more than once in a match is far from unlikely. And did I mention revenge killing this is no small feat at all? Ash-Greninja can't do so if its at full health, and the immediate threat of this thing forces awkward predictions and 50/50s with Scarf Stone Edge Landorus-T as well as Tapu Koko, Weavile, and Zeraora. Not to mention it can force out Mega Lopunny if healthy enough, as a full powered Return maxes out at 81% and is only a 50% chance to OHKO after rocks if it really comes down to it.

Lastly, an argument that I see constantly is the idea that Torn offers a lot to the metagame, such as folks mentioning how thin hazard removal options can be, and how Torn is a very solid revenge killer for several dangerous threats, (most notably Grass-types) such as Kartana, Rillaboom, and Serperior. I greatly dislike arguments focusing on what things offer to a metagame specifically, as they can blind folks to the drastic negative effects that such a mon can offer. It's also a very slippery slope, as the argument of "offering such and such tool that we don't currently have in the meta" can be argued about almost every currently banned Pokemon that we have. I'll admit I find myself missing Torn-T's defogging even now, but this should not be used as an argument for unbanning it, as it has the potential to distract and undermine the far more negative effects that Torn-T would have.

Again, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be suspected (although doing so before NDPL would be a huge mistake). I just see a lot of misunderstanding as to what Torn-T actually does, and what made it busted in the first place.
 
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Kyo

In Limbo
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
Been seeing a lot of interest in a Tornadus-T resuspect recently which I kind of get since it has been a while since the last suspect and the meta is feeling more stable than ever. Personally, I wouldn't vote to unban Tornadus-T if a suspect were to happen but that's neither here nor there. I'm more than fine with the test happening as I think revisiting mons that have been previously banned is an important part of fully developing a metagame. With all that said, I'm making this post to bring up a different option for a suspect test that I think should take priority over retesting Torn. Hopefully this won't derail the ongoing Torn discussion cause I do like seeing what the rest of the community thinks on these topics.

13926.png


I would like to propose suspect testing Zamazenta-C down from Ubers

I'm going to preface the rest of this post by saying that if you are the kind of player who gives any weight at all to the entirely honorary title of "Legendary" pokemon, pls just scroll past this post. There are viable mons in the National Dex tier with base stat totals as low as the 400s and there are balanced mons in the tier with stat totals reaching 700. What ultimately makes a pokemon "viable" or "balanced" in a tier is a combination of attributes (stats, typing, movepool, etc.) and being a legendary pokemon is certainly not one of these. If you can't accept that, trying to convince you that Zamazenta-C should be suspect tested is probably an excercise in futility.

***

I want to discuss the main reasons why I think Zamazenta-C should be suspect tested, and why it should be tested before a Tornadus-T resuspect.

The reason Zamazenta-C is currently in Ubers is because, as a general rule, box legendaries are placed in this tier by default until proven otherwise. These mons tend to have huge base stat totals, great movepools, and everything else that makes a pokemon OP. It's usually a safe bet that Ubers is the tier a box legendary will end up in because these mons are designed to be insanely good. The exception to this rule is of course Kyurem-Black. This mon was actually OU ranked from gen 5 all the way through gen 7 despite being a box legendary and was widely considered to be a healthy addition to the meta. It was eventually sent to Ubers because gen 8 gave it icicle spear (a physical STAB that it was lacking), dragon dance, and even freeze dry. This pushed Kyurem-Black's kit from "great" to "absolutely busted" and thus it was banned. The point I'm trying to make here is twofold: first is that legendary pokemon, even box legendaries, can find a place in OU or lower tiers and second is that there is an existing precedent for bringing these mons to the OU tier which is probably what allowed for a certain suspect test to even happen in the first place.

Earlier in April of this year, SS OU suspect tested Zamazenta-C which was residing in Ubers. The push for a Zama-C test probably started as a joke poking fun at the fact that the mon was so bad in Ubers despite its massive base stat total. It simply wasn't good in that tier due to a number of shortcomings, mainly its shallow movepool and mediocre typing. It was ultimately decided that Zama-C would remain banned from OU although a decent number of players voted to unban it, myself included. Here is a link to my suspect reqs and here is a link to the suspect thread so you can read more about both sides of the discussion if you aren't already familiar with it.

So Zamazenta-C was already suspect tested in SS OU, what does that mean for National Dex? The fact of the matter is that National Dex has arguably the highest power creep of any OU tier. It has access to more mons than current and previous gens OU and both of the powerful gimmicks of Mega Stones and Z Moves. If you're not already aware, Zama-C is required to hold the item Rusted Shield as this is what lets it change from Hero form to Crowned form. Rusted Shield does not directly offer any benefits to the mon, rather it is a requirement for the mon to even exist. It's essentially the same as Silvally holding a Type Memory and is active before the battle even begins (i.e. you don't have to manually activate it like with Mega Stones and it can't be knocked off/removed). This is highly relevant because it means that Zama-C can never make use of Z Moves (or Mega Stones obviously). It's no secret that this is what most often makes or breaks a mon from being in a certain tier. Z Moves are the reason I voted to not unban Blaziken a few months back, and they're very clearly the breaking point that is currently stopping Torn-T from being in NatDex OU.

If Zamazenta-C can be suspect tested in SS OU, then it also stands to reason that it should be suspect tested in a tier with much higher power creep where it doesn't directly benefit in any way from Z Moves and Mega Stones which will both be used against/threaten it in every single battle.

In my opinion, tiers have an obligation to do their due diligence and test any mon that reasonably could be balanced in said tier. The goal should be to create the most expansive metagame possible without breaking or overcentralizing the tier. If Zamazenta-C is not broken in NatDex OU, then it should be in the tier. The only way to know for certain is to try. Remember that at the end of the day, you can just vote "No" and leave Zama-C in Ubers. As for why I want Zama-C tested before Torn-T, I feel that if a mon has already been voted out of a tier then it shouldn't take priority over voting on another mon that hasn't. I'm not directly opposed to a Torn-T retest and this isn't a written tiering rule of any kind, just my opinion.

***

Thanks for reading! I know this was a long post and maybe not a popular one, but give it some thought.​
 
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I think it is time for me to finally make my post on T H E G E M S

I firmly believe that all the gen 5 gems should be legal in Natdex OU. Our tier is intended to be a format essentially pretending that nothing was removed from the game, and I believe that gems fall under that category the same way Z Moves and Mega Stones do.
I don’t think they are OP since it’s basically a choice band boost, except it only works once, meaning you can’t go for 2hkoes or repeatedly hit&running the way you can with choice items. Also, most of the setup sweepers can’t abuse gems too well to be broken, dice they often require items like Mega Stones or Heavy Duty Socks. Also, I think that it will help make Natdex seem less like like “Gen 7 with boots and Corviknight” (yes I know that’s an incorrect statement)
 

Kaede

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Our tier is intended to be a format essentially pretending that nothing was removed from the game, and I believe that gems fall under that category the same way Z Moves and Mega Stones do.
gems don't really fall under that category, gems weren't in gen7 while Mega stones and Z-moves are.

an unofficial metagame based on the principle of everything from Generation 7 being allowed in Generation 8! This means all cut Pokemon, moves, and mechanics such as Mega Evolution are available.
for the record, this is currently the identity of natdex
 
Oh sad
But I still think it should be considered. This wouldn’t be massively meta game ruining or anything, and could create new fun strategies
i wouldn't exactly want the gems back, even if it was legal to have. one of the biggest things which would be busted is fighting gem sd rilla, or bug gem volcarona (which has a more than half chance to drop 252/252+ ttar in sand from full at +1). ice gem taxel and dragon gem seem nuts as well. also let's not forget, hidden power is boosted by the gems, plus there's no limit to how many Pokemon can have a gem.

i think that in such a metagame with ridiculous power, adding another thing which could shake it up so drastically wouldn't be so good for it.
when you suspect Ubers and stuff, you deal with it for two weeks, and it will go or stay. who knows. what you're saying is that you want to (presumably) indefinitely allow something which is a free one-time choice item, which no longer exists in the game and would likely break mons which are balanced now.
 
i wouldn't exactly want the gems back, even if it was legal to have. one of the biggest things which would be busted is fighting gem sd rilla, or bug gem volcarona (which has a more than half chance to drop 252/252+ ttar in sand from full at +1). ice gem taxel and dragon gem seem nuts as well. also let's not forget, hidden power is boosted by the gems, plus there's no limit to how many Pokemon can have a gem.

i think that in such a metagame with ridiculous power, adding another thing which could shake it up so drastically wouldn't be so good for it.
when you suspect Ubers and stuff, you deal with it for two weeks, and it will go or stay. who knows. what you're saying is that you want to (presumably) indefinitely allow something which is a free one-time choice item, which no longer exists in the game and would likely break mons which are balanced now.
Fist off, Z-Moves already exist, which are gems that:
Have almost double power versus a 1.5x boost
Can be activated at will rather than the first time you select a move
Can be used on moves like giga impact kartana to remove bad effects
Now yes, you can only use one z-move, but most teams don’t have more than 2 setup sweepers, and a lot have just 1, meaning that the Z-Move usually already goes to that mon. Also, I don’t think fighting gem Rillaboom would be broken since it’s not that big a power difference from Lorb and cuts into your gglide revenge killing range. Bug gem Volcorona still gets stopped by most non-ttar Volc answers like pex anyways, and bug gem doesn’t help as much as Z does that I think it could justify losing Heavy Duty Socks.
when you suspect Ubers and stuff, you deal with it for two weeks, and it will go or stay. who knows. what you're saying is that you want to (presumably) indefinitely allow something which is a free one-time choice item, which no longer exists in the game and would likely break mons which are balanced now.
1. A free one-time choice item is less OP than you are hyping it up to be. Most Pokémon either don’t benefit enough from this item or already have Z-Moves.
2. I mean, a lot of this tier is intended to let people use stuff that no longer exists, even if it affects balance. Since I’m not sure if it’s actually in the tiering policy of NatDex to allow gems, it’s entirely possible we could suspect test them like a new Pokémon.
 

Kyo

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For the record, gems don’t even give a 1.5x boost. It was nerfed down to 1.3x starting in gen 6 although normal gem is the only one that’s available anymore. Considering they’re a single use item that will only boost an attack of a specific typing, gems are pretty outclassed by items that give a 1.2x boost to a specific type and aren’t single unless you’re using a mon with acrobatics.
 
To change the subject, I want to talk about a small aspect of natdex that I think it underappreciated and a bit strong, although perhaps that's my bias speaking. I personally think these two pokemon are ranked well on the VR, but I want to foster discussion on this ability, I guess. Anyway, get excited for....

:Clefable:
UNAWARE
:Quagsire:


Stall is a generally niche archetype in NDEX OU, since most teams generally appreciate at least 1-2 fast ways to turn the tides of the game, but it is not flat out unviable like some other strong archetypes of the past. The difficult thing with stall is running into difficult setup sweepers that can blast through your thick walls. Unaware prevents this in a way that haze does not, by being a permanent ward for calm mind, bulk up, swords dance, and nasty plot, rather than a temporary one. The two premier and really only unaware pokemon with a niche in national dex are Clefable and Quagsire. I want to go into these pokemon and explain their absolutely bonkers potential and how they are the lynchpins of stall (aside from, of course, :Sableye-Mega: our dear magic bounce friend).

:Clefable:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Stored Power/Aromatherapy
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled

CM Clef is no wild pick. In fact, it has been widely used for the past 3 generations, usually with the ability "magic guard" and the item "life orb" to pack a serious punch. However, while you lose the added power magic guard + life orb provides and the ability to shrug off status moves, unaware Clef provides a vital role to all stall teams by its unique ability as a simultaneous defensive and offensive threat. For the sake of argument, let's say a Tapu Fini switches in on your Mega Sableye. Fearing a Moonblast, you switch to your Blissey, but the Tapu Fini cheekily uses calm mind. Getting into a stall war with a draining kiss pokemon on the highest HP blob in the game is not a winning matchup, but in your back pocket, CM Clefable rests, able to counter. There are very few pokemon that can switch in on a fully calm minded up +6 Tapu Fini, but CM Clefable is one of them. Not only can it switch in, but it can defeat the Tapu Fini in a 1 on 1 by calm minding up itself and blasting it away.
+6 0 SpA Unaware Clefable Moonblast vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 312-367 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
As if it couldn't get any better, your Clefable is now sitting pretty at +6/+6, and your opponent has likely written a profane, scathing dissertation on how you are a bad human being for playing stall and forfeited the game. There is no other pokemon in the game (except for the soon to be mentioned Quagsire) with this capability. Unaware is a very cautious ability. By using it, you are admitting to yourself "hey, I might accidentally let an opponent get set up" and giving yourself a "get out of jail free" card. Calm mind, soft-boiled, and moonblast are rather obvious moves. You require healing to stave off the multitudinous threats the meta provides, and calm mind and moonblast are you setup up and STAB combo. The 4th move is distinct in the sense that you have great options to choose from but an opportunity cost for each. In my opinion, the best of these options is thunderbolt. Certain pokemon are able to outlive even the strengthiest of CM Clefables and toxic stall it when flamethrower or SP are used, such as Heatran, and Ferro/spdef Corvi (for SP, not flamethrower). Certain pokemon can annoy tbolt Clefable, such as spdef toxic Drill, but the spread for tbolt is the highest. With that being said, flamethrower is incredibly helpful for certain steel types and some offensive pokemon that can quickly threaten Clef out, and stored power is incredible for a win condition if some threats are cleared out of the way. Aromatherapy is a super dope option for stall, as while you become hopeless against certain walls, you allow yourself to provide more team support as well as removing your own toxic from yourself. In my opinion, Clefable shines most from having 4 extremely strong sets that it can run: the SR set, the wishport set, lo CM, and unaware CM. I would rank unaware CM by itself somewhere in the realm of C to B-. It may not be that strong, but I think a pokemon with the potential to single handedly save a game AND single handedly win a game is invaluable to stall teams...except for Quagsire.

:Quagsire:
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Curse/Toxic

Swagsire Quagsire is the other consummate unaware pick for stall. An incredibly interesting defensive pokemon with mixed attacks, nobody is really sure how this ostensibly laughable Quagsire set became a legitimate pick on stall teams. Water/ground is commonly viable type, as it only has one weakness in grass type. With grass resistances aplenty with the 4x resisters Corviknight and Skarmory being common on stall teams, Quagsire's biggest typing weakness is mitigated off the bat. Unaware, as explained above, allows it to shrug off the insane physical set up sweepers in the tier. The earthquake and recover allows it to force out Heatran, a criminal stall-killer in the meta that stall has enormous trouble dealing with w/o this thing or another ground type. Scald proliferates burn and helps further deter physical attackers, and all in all, Quagsire is menace to certain physical attackers. However, the last moveslot is where it gets interesting. In my opinion, curse Quagsire is a stronger option that toxic, but both are quite good. Curse allows Quagsire to be the physical version of the aforementioned unaware Clefable. Despite the fact that scald is not boosted by curse, Quagsire can function effectively as an unkillable whittler with the conditions of removal of certain special attackers than can 2hko, and earthquake-weak pokemon will be shredded by the fully cursed pokemon. Toxic, on the other hand, sacrifices game winning ability to become even more potent in game saving, being more akin to the team-wide gameplan stall teams generally employ than a win condition. Role compressing toxic onto Quagsire allows other pokemon to have more liberty to run prophylactic moves such as aromatherapy, wish, and teleport. Similar to CM Clefable, I think C or B- are good ranks for this pokemon. It's not really viable without certain conditions, but under those conditions, it turns into a complete menace.

The future of unaware is a much higher ceiling than current reality. With proper team support, Quagsire and CM Clefable can break free from the stall archetype and fit on other teams, though contending with other calm mind users and the more popular water ground types would be difficult. All in all, I hope you enjoyed my dissertation on unaware, and I hope it made you aware of the myriad of boons using these two pokemon can have on your teams. ...I'll see myself out after that pun. Enjoy!
 

adem

don't save her, she don't wanna be saved
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My thoughts on the current Metagame, as well as what I think are some underrated / under-utilised picks or sets currently.


Underrated / Underutilised Pokemon in the Current Metagame

♂


Volcanion
:ss/volcanion:
Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Toxic


Volcanion had a large surge in viability after Ox the Fox had brought Hail over to NatDex, bringing with it Specs Volcanion on his well known team. This team had seen large amounts of success helping people qualify for NDLT playoffs, as well as using it in the playoffs as well, shown here and here. However, the main set being used was the Choice Specs set, which while a terrifying set to switch in, can easily be played around via the likes of Toxapex + Ground Immunity / Careful play, limiting its switch ins due to its Stealth Rock weakness. A set that I feel is extremely underrated currently, and frankly I feel a much better set is Sub 3A. (s/o NVK for showing this to me ❤)

Volcanion @ Leftovers / Heavy Duty Boots / Mystic Water
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 60 HP / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

- Substitute
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power / Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb

This set excels at completely mutilating the likes of CorvPexClef defensive cores, abusing its unique defensive typing in conjunction with its offensive prowess to setup a Substitute in front of the likes of Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Corviknight, Skarmory, Clefable, and Mega Scizor. Volcanions coverage options are extremely hard to pivot around, with Fire / Water / Ground forming perfect coverage, hitting everything at least neutrally. This extreme offense pressure can be showcased in games like this, this and this. The spread allows it to outspeed the likes of SpDef Heatran, and a bit more. This Pokemon, and this specific set should be used far more, for sure an extremely under explored breaker for its capabilities.

Mew
:ss/mew:

Mew @ Colbur Berry / Rocky Helmet / Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 76 Def / 112 SpD / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp / Taunt
- Earthquake / Body Press

OR

Mew @ Red Card / Focus Sash
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Misty Explosion
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt


Mew in my opinion is a Pokemon that has a large amount of potential, although there have been barely enough people who have actually tried the Pokemon, and utilised it outside of a Spike Setter. These 2 sets, one of which is Defensive, and one as a Hazard Stack lead are probably the most known sets, and even then, neither of these sets are used as much as they should be used. Set 1 covers the likes of Mega Medicham, Heatran, Mega Diancie, and Hawlucha, all terrifying Pokemon to deal with for a lot of Offenses and BOs. A faster spread can be used to hit 270 Speed ( Rillaboom ), but makes checking Mega Diancie and Heatran harder. Faster defensive spreads for the likes of Mega Garchomp cut vastly into its defensive utility and is oftentimes not worth it, as these bulkier sets handle those threats already. The lead set hasnt been used much recently, as the screens hype is still there, but Lead Mew is one of the best leads for HStack HO either way so when that pops up again, this will become more seen.

However, these 2 sets dont even come close to reaching Mew’s full capabilities, and I was shown that by this set, made by NVK :

Mew @ Groundium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Earthquake


This set aims to function as a solid Mega Mawile answer, threatening a Wisp burn or KOing it, as well as providing utility in Stealth Rock and a check to the likes of Mega Medicham. Ground Z means Knock barely does more than half, and Play Rough does a slight bit more than it. The interaction functions like this: Mew switches in on Maw SD, Mew outspeeds and Wisps, can recover back damage from either Knock / Play Rough, and KO back with EQ / Ground Z. OR Mew switches in on Knock / Play Rough, can recover back the damage and force it out, threatening a Ground Z or a Wisp. Sets like these continue to show Mews flexibility, and with its access to all Hazards, multiple forms of utility, as well as being able to check a plethora of threats in the tier, this is definitely one of the more under-utilised Pokemon here, but mainly due to how little I have seen it been explored. Mew in general fits extremely well on everything from HO to bulky offenses to stall as shown in this, this, and this, and should definitely be a Pokemon that is considered more when building, with much more experimentation with its item, its EVs, its moves, and even how its played.

Blacephalon
:ss/blacephalon:
Blacephalon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Knock Off / Trick
- Fire Blast / Overheat / Hidden Power Ground
- Flamethrower

- Shadow Ball

First of all, thank fucking god Avery nommed this because HOLY FUCK this mon is so fun to use. This Pokemon I have literally seen no one use outside of me, avery, and a few other people and it is an extremely underrated wallbreaker. Yes, weavile it is at an all time high right now, which sucks as it is extremely pursuit-able, but its biggest check in Tyranitar is at a low, meaning even if it does get Pursuit trapped in the end, it will always manage to claim one. This is in general already paired with a Pursuit lure such as Colbur Mew / Slowbro, or extreme hazard pressure from the likes of Mega Diancie, or both ! This is one of my favourite teams showcasing this Pokemon. This Pokemon puts in more than enough pressure VS bulkier teams without Weavile due to how spammable Ghost is, as well as oftentimes forcing a trade war VS more offensive teams, as shown in here. Overall, I do think this Pokemon is a bit underused for how effective of a breaker it is, if played well.

Mega Latios
:ss/latios-mega: ♂

Latios-Mega (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic / Thunder
- Aura Sphere
- Ice Beam / Substitute
- Roost


This is a Pokemon was one that I intially thought was garbage, but then grew to love. It comparable to its counterpart in terms of defensive utility, but its excellent coverage in conjunction with its high offenses make it a real bitch to switch into. It is also now, more than ever, much more slappable teams, filling multiple defensive roles as well as being a solid breaker. Its large movepool similar to Mew means it is extremely customisable; Draco for MMedi and Victini, Thunder for Corv and Slowking, Myst for Aegi and Zor, etc etc. This makes it extremely unpredictable, and really hard to deal with especially with faster paced teams, due to their usual Lati counterplay being Punishment Lando T, or pressuring it with Status due to how long it takes to get going. This means MLatios takes advantage of these teams very well, as it doesnt set up (Punishment is irrelevant), and has much more immediate breaking power + isnt meant to be a long term wincon, so doesnt care about Toxic.

Melmetal
:ss/melmetal:

Melmetal @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 160 SpD / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Wave
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower / Earthquake

Thunder Wave Melmetal is a offensive monster, tearing apart bulkier teams, and abusing the likes of Heatran, Skarmory, Mega Scizor, and Corviknight; usually common switch-ins, by Para-ing them, fishing for full paralysis to break through them. Its amazing bulk and pure Steel typing allow it to function as a Pokemon that can casually trade with a lot of common Pokemon, and breaking Steels for teammates such as Mega Latios and Tapu Lele to break. Right now with Hail on the rise, this Pokemon shuts down standard Hail teams with good play. It also functions as a soft check for the likes of Reuniclus, Tyranitar, Rillaboom, and Fairys in general, and its lack of recovery is less of an issue when you realise actually switching into it and not losing your Pokemon / losing 80% of your Pokemon’s HP. This Pokemon is honestly not seen enough on teams for how solid it is.

Underrated / Underused Sets

:clefable:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled


This set is a godsend for fatter, HStack builds, where keeping rocks up is important. It works best with teams that dont really mind / would prefer the utility gone: (TSpikes teams not liking TWave, Weavile teams not appreciating Knock as it weakens it). Thos set also happens to be on my Sample, which happens to be a HStacking fat with TSpikes Toxapex.

:zeraora:
Zeraora @ Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 208 Atk / 108 SpA / 192 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Work Up
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Plasma Fists

- Close Combat

This Zeraora set is a super cool wincon for a lot of teams, actually can deal with Ground types consistently unlike bulk up sets, and isnt actually a worse Koko (IMO as pivot sets). It fits best on offenses that want a solid cleaner with a great immediate speed tier, or fatter teams that want a fast wincon to clean weakened teams. S/O Mario34 for building this with me.

:serperior:
Serperior @ Leppa Berry / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Taunt
- Synthesis


TauntSynth Serperior is an absolute Menace for stall and bulkier teams in general, who rely on killing it first / setup with unaware Pokemon on it, Chans/Bliss and Clefable, respectively, or try and PP stall it with Corv while dancing around it. Taunt + Synthesis denies all of that, preventing the likes of Chansey and Clefable from Softboiling and Calm Minding, and Synthesis letting it beat Chansey. Rocky Helmet lets it beat Chansey easier, Leppa makes Leaf Storm much more spammable.

:victini:
Victini @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 172 Atk / 84 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- V-create
- Expanding Force
- U-turn
- Scorching Sands / Toxic


PsySpam is in general a build that I would like to see more off, and this Victini set is an amazing partner for Lele on those builds. Expanding Force acts like a Glaciate + Bolt Strike in one, hitting both Pex and Grounds. Tox can be used to punish MLati and Sands for Heatran. In general, I think PsySpam could be a solid build with this set, even with the loss of Big Zammers.

:hoopa-unbound:
Hoopa-Unbound @ Metronome
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Psyshock
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast


S/O NVK again for making this set, SubMetro Hoopa U completely demolishes fatter builds / stall, and at the very least will generate one KO, at the worst case scenario (Pursuit Vile Fat), and in general is a solid breaker for the likes of Mega Lop / Mega Scizor, who both generate numerous opportunities for Hoopa U to come in and Sub.

Anyways, thats all from me and my thoughts on the current Metagame. Overall am a super huge fan of what NatDex is like right now, and am looking forward to see a lot of innovation this NDPL. S/O simpcord yuh
 
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Dorron

Bolas
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:ss/durant: The Zap Ant :ss/durant:

Introduction
I was playing a Draft League and I was able to set up my Agility WP Latias thanks to Durant defeating the opposing Garchomp, who could OHKO me with its super effective moves and I couldn't do anything as the bulk I could give to Latias to ensure the OHKOs after the boost wasn't enough to endure Dragon Claw with guaranteed success (252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Latias: 392-464 (130.2 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Bulk given to resist a Mega-Gallade Knock Off).

After the game, which resulted in a successful Latias sweep with Durant being the only sacked mon, I was curious of Durant's potential and how it could perform in the National Dex metagame. It wouldn't be the first time I tried it (never did well) and I wanted to try something different. As the current host of Next Best Thing and a great fan in general of luring and using diverse sets, this had to be the time when Durant had its time to shine.

What set to run?
Looking back to those times I had used Durant before, the problem was always the same: Corviknight and Toxapex (and maybe another unmon) were a big problem for Durant's realiability, as they forced it out, wore it down with their moves+recovery+Rocky Helmet or just pivot out. Making use of my free time and a few calcs allowed me to find the perfect set (pls always think we are talking about Durant, not a S tier staple). It perfectly lured in the threats I wanted it to and OHKOed them. Amazing! Let's see what is it about!

The Set
Durant @ Electrium Z :electrium-z:
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hone Claws
- Thunder Fang
- Superpower
- Iron Head

Most of you must be thinking something like "Oh, you were serious when you talked about using Durant?". Unfortunately, I was. This set covers a lot of defensive threats uncovered by non-electrium sets, as you will see now.

:corviknight: +1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Gigavolt Havoc (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Corviknight: 382-450 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO guaranteed after rocks damage and lefties recovery
:corviknight: +1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Gigavolt Havoc (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 362-426 (90.5 - 106.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after rocks damage and lefties recovery, guaranteed after rocks damage and no lefties
:toxapex:
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Gigavolt Havoc (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Toxapex: 336-396 (110.5 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:toxapex:
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Gigavolt Havoc (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 278-328 (91.4 - 107.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after rocks damage and lefties recovery
:slowbro:
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Gigavolt Havoc (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 350-414 (88.8 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO guaranteed after rocks damage and knocked boots

Other Threats
(aka once they discovered we are no Stomping Tantrum)
:heatran: +1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 358-422 (92.7 - 109.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after rocks damage and lefties recovery
:blacephalon: 252 Atk Hustle Durant Gigavolt Havoc (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 288-339 (116.5 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:magnezone: 252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 306-362 (108.8 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:mawile-mega: +1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 214-253 (81 - 95.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also remember that the foes won't always be at full HP so some rolls might turn into OHKOs, like Mawile and Tran.

Threats
"This is going to be endless." some of youmight be thinking. And, well, not really, but I must say that some of the list are very prominent in the meta so that's something to consider.

:ss/zapdos:
Any form of Zapdos can easily deal with Rock-less Durant, receiving nothing from its attacks and hitting very hard in return (0 SpA Hurricane has 15/16 to OHKO indeed, and not mentioning Heat Wave).

:ss/latias: :latiasite: :ss/latios: :latiosite:
It's true that even Latias-Mega receives (40.6 - 48%) from unboosted Iron Head, but their access to Mystical Fire and recovery, as well as being faster makes them good options to deal with Durant. After a few hazards switch ins, Latios can OHKO Durant with Aura Sphere. (70.8 - 83.6%)

Literally any special attacker faster than it and bulky mons.
Durant's special bulk sucks. To give you a comparison, Aegislash-Blade is bulkier. This means that any special attacker that outspeeds it and hits hard will pretty sure OHKO it or leave it to rocks range. This includes Tapu Koko, Scarf Lele with F Blast, Greninja, Serperior and Gengar, among others.

There are other Pokemon like Mega Swampert which are very bulky and can easily take any of Durant's attacks and attack in return. Be careful...


Teammates?
I suck at building so I can't really contribute to this point a lot but..

:ss/weavile: :ss/tapu-fini:
Weavile is a great Pokemon in the metagame that really fits well with Durant, as it can revenge kill a lot of the threats mentioned before (like Zapdos, Latis and Serperior) and Durant can take on Tapu Fini, Toxapex and others for it.

Durant and Weavile can switch in weak moves used to other teammates, for example, Weavile switching in a Psychic or Ice Beam from Mega Latios. You will eventually need a switch in for Fighting and Fire, as well as a Defogger, so I find Tapu Fini pretty useful when paired with these two. You will also need an Electric immunity/resist, hazards (Ferrothorn can cover these two) and pivoting to send Durant and Weavile freely, which makes Lando another interesting addition to a team.

In order to play with Durant and do your best, don't be scared of double switches if you feel you need them, Durant punishes them pretty well and even the slightest advantage can put Durant in a very comfortable situation for the rest of the game.

That's all I can say about Durant, I invite you all to give it a try in ladder, I am sure you will hate it missing its moves!
 

Dorron

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Ok now a serious thing. New council minutes talking about a very interesting topic. I've always been very against the idea that this is a competitive and healthy element in the tier (and in every tier it is available). It has always made my teambuilding harder and it always is either an instalose or a lot of mindgames when you play against it when not very prepared.

:ss/magnezone:
Magnezone has been very good since its introduction in Gen 4, always being OU and always doing the same thing: trapping and deleting other Steel-types to pave the way for teammates, such as Kyurem or Kartana in National Dex.

One of the main aspects to consider when teambuilding is imagining the scenario in which your sweeper will be able to, well, sweep successfully. You generally rely on teammates to set up some favorable scenarios, like chipping down the opposing walls. However, what Magnezone's teammates rely on is simply uncompetitive to me. Switching is what makes Pokemon be what it is, removing it from the game is just playing a different thing. Well, that's how Magnezone works. It switches in, generally by U-turn or any other pivot method, click Thunderbolt / HP Fire and get a KO if the opponent is a Steel-type or click Volt Switch in almost any other scenario thanks to Magnet Pull trapping the foes. This is possible not only because of its ability but also its stupid damage output which means no slower Steel-type besides Heatran and Melmetal can endure a single hit of it. How are you supposed to check your opponent defensively if most of the best Pokemon are Steel-type and a single lost mind game can lead you to lose your wall? Totally stupid.

In fact, this is not the first time Magnezone is "brought to the table". As some may remember, Garchomp and its Mega were a topic of discussion a while ago, which you can check here. We can see Jho, Mudkip and Chazm (correct me if wrong) talking about Mega/Chomp in the metagame by April. The final thought Chazm takes from the talk is that Corviknight actually isn't a Ground check, and it simply is because of Magnezone. It simply traps Corv and if it isn't running Shed Shell (which might be the case but was Knocked Off by Lando or Rilla), your Corv is fainted. And not only Corviknight. It's the same for Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile, Skarmory and even Kartana if Zone is running Scarf.

To sume up: I think Magnet Pull is uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame and there should be taken action either in the ability or the user.
 
In fact, this is not the first time Magnezone is "brought to the table". As some may remember, Garchomp and its Mega were a topic of discussion a while ago, which you can check here. We can see Jho, Mudkip and Chazm (correct me if wrong) talking about Mega/Chomp in the metagame by April. The final thought Chazm takes from the talk is that Corviknight actually isn't a Ground check, and it simply is because of Magnezone. It simply traps Corv and if it isn't running Shed Shell (which might be the case but was Knocked Off by Lando or Rilla), your Corv is fainted. And not only Corviknight. It's the same for Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile, Skarmory and even Kartana if Zone is running Scarf.

To sume up: I think Magnet Pull is uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame and there should be taken action either in the ability or the user.
small note that I feel's worth putting down here but I think corv's not a ground check for more than just zone issues. corv's not actually a ground check simply because it doesn't answer the mons it's trying to beat 1v1, and the majority of ground types either adapt for it or if they're the rare case of a ground actually walled by corv, they contract zone or get a contact punish / offensive punish to make sure it can't either roost or u-turn successfully. shed shell isn't particularly a viable option either for corv given the presence of knock off on various pivots in the current metagame. I think this post more or so details why corv is a relatively mediocre pick in the current metagame compared to other steels that are still trapped by it, such as ferro, which can very easily get up 2 spikes vs most sets, and mega scizor (zone is an unsafe answer to scizor). otherwise I'm generally a believer of magpull being broken due to the sheer amount of mons that can abuse steels being gone this gen - but a lot of this is just corv's fault, not zone's fault.
 
small note that I feel's worth putting down here but I think corv's not a ground check for more than just zone issues. corv's not actually a ground check simply because it doesn't answer the mons it's trying to beat 1v1, and the majority of ground types either adapt for it or if they're the rare case of a ground actually walled by corv, they contract zone or get a contact punish / offensive punish to make sure it can't either roost or u-turn successfully. shed shell isn't particularly a viable option either for corv given the presence of knock off on various pivots in the current metagame. I think this post more or so details why corv is a relatively mediocre pick in the current metagame compared to other steels that are still trapped by it, such as ferro, which can very easily get up 2 spikes vs most sets, and mega scizor (zone is an unsafe answer to scizor). otherwise I'm generally a believer of magpull being broken due to the sheer amount of mons that can abuse steels being gone this gen - but a lot of this is just corv's fault, not zone's fault.
Agree a ton with the last statement. So much of anti magnezone reasoning comes down to “The only/best way to check this is with Corviknight and how can I do that if Magnezone?” in which case Magnezone ain’t the problem.
 
I dont typically play natdex ou but I think the topic of magnezone is definitely really interesting when you look at trapping and trapping abilities as a whole. The main thing im getting at here is if we're taking a look at banning magnezone, why not ban pursuit as well? Pursuit does a lot of similar things as magnet pull, and is perhaps even better than it when it goes beyond just killing psychic/ghost pokemon and can trap pretty much anything as well. I personally dont think magnezone should be banned but I think pursuit should be dealt with in the same way as it because the two are really similar in terms of what they enable. Banning magnezone sets off the precedent that trapping = uncompetitive so it doesnt make sense to not deal with pursuit in the same way.
 

Milo

I'm Your Man
is a Community Contributor
Ight lads. We're back on the topic of Magnezone now that the weeks of NDPL are over. Of course the playoffs are still going on, but I've used the data across all of the teams, not just the final 4. Now the main argument against Zone is that Magnet Pull is unbalanced and uncompetitive, which is indeed a valid argument in some sort. However, to support this we have to take into account the usage of not only Zone itself, but Ferrothorn, Corviknight and Scizor, the main mons that Magnezone traps. I've done calculations of the usage stats of ndpl and here are my results:

Just as a reference, Landorus's usage rate in NDOU was 8.57%, brought 108 times.
(see calculations at the bottom)


Magnezone
Magnezone was brought to NDPL 40 times out of 1260 total mons brought to the team tournament. With this it's usage rate was 3.17%. This is decently higher than the average usage rate of 2.22%. Now this is a factor into it's ban, however if we take a look at the other mons usage, we can take in new factors.

Corviknight
Corviknight was brought to NDPL 45 times with a usage rate of 3.57%, barely higher than zone. Now the main argument for tiering action against zone, or more specifically Magnet Pull, would be if it's usage was higher than what it traps. However here the proximity of usage is rather worrying and very close to each other. I'm not saying by any means that this is ban worthy, but should just be used for reference when taking judgement and action, for the council and playerbase.

Ferrothorn
Ferrothorn was brought 47 times with a usage rate of 3.73%. Now this once again is quite close to zone, so I won't reiterate the same points, only add on that Ferrothorn is the only mon of the 3 that cannot pivot away from a zone switch in, which leaves it more vulnerable, being the most used out of these 3 steel types.

Scizor
Scizor was brought 21 times to ndpl with a usage rate of 1.66% which is proportionally below average. Now here the gap between Zone and Scizor could be because of Zone's usage, forcing Scizor's down, however defensive Scizor does have the ability to pivot on a zone coming in, and an offensive scizor should be running enough to outspeed it, so this isn't as worrying as the other two.

Now Ferrothorn has been a prevalent mon in OU since it's release in gen 5, and I for one hope to see that continue. But in my opinion, the main issue is hazard control with zone. The main hazard removal mons within the metagame, are Corviknight and Tapu Fini with less usage in Zapdos these days. There is always the ability to run fog on Lando, Gliscor and some other things, but they generally don't run these sets on most teams. With Corv's usage just higher than Zone it creates issues for team's originality and and archetype diversity. In my opinion, if Tornadus-T was unbanned, then that would give a lot more freedom in choice of Hazard Control, however if it were to remain unbanned then I think that a Magnet Pull suspect or vote should be taken after taking into account these statistics. (This is not me saying that MP should be banned, this is simply a suggestion on how to form a judgement based on further information) On the topic of Torn, I've said this to a few people but I think that the Nasty Plot sets would be the lesser used set, more seen on things such as ho or a paired with corv/fini in fact which can see the rise of more checks and counters back into the metagame, for example Blissey. The Bulky Fog set however, which is why it was banned in the first place,I feel would be used the most, but for those who argue that the reason why it remains banned is because plot, I just feel freeing torn gives more diversity to the hazard control situation and that plot shouldn't affect that too harshly because of the current state of the metagame. However, that isn't to say that Plot Z wouldn't be busted on HO archetypes or BO fog wouldn't be hard to break, it would. Which is why I'm more anti-torn than pro, however I just believe that it isn't as bad as it's made out to be. But that's up to the majority of opinion this post was merely about statistics.

Cheers <3

Calculations:
1260 mons used over the 7 weeks, 180 mons each week.
Model Value of mons each Week: 4
Usage = Amount divided by Total x 100
(E.g Zone = 40/1260 = 0.0317 x 100 = 3.17%)


Model Value (Mode) = 4 mons each week
4 x 7 (weeks) = 28. 28/1260 = 0.022 x 100 = 2.22%

Sources used: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ndpl-ii-replays-and-usage-stats.3691460/post-8996081 Usages stats for each week supplied by Kaede and Zneon
 
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I wanted to talk about Lopunny here some more because honestly some of its attributes are almost unironically ground for lopunny sus.
Reasons for lopunny sus:
0: Nothing interesting is happening in Natdex
1: Here’s a matchup spread for standard U turn lopunny paired with magnezone.

:heatran: Nope dead
:landorus-therian: Dead because scrappy, no recovery

S-
:lopunny-mega: Speed tie

A Rank

A+
:clefable: Physdef can take return
:ferrothorn: lol no
:gliscor: ganked by ice punch but this isn’t the ice punch set
:greninja-ash: Lol no
:kartana: lol no
:magnezone: lol no
:mawile-mega: no recovery, takes a lot from CC, one CC puts it in magnezone range
:tapu-fini: Yeah not bad
:toxapex: Yeah not bad
:weavile: lol no

A
:corviknight: Magnezone
:garchomp: Annoying bc chip damage but dies pretty easy
:kyurem: Lol no
:latias-mega: U turn chunks bad ngl
:scizor-mega: Magnezone
:tapu-koko: Loses in 1v1 bc fake out
:tapu-lele: Scarf is pretty popular but non scarf loses

A-
:diancie-mega: Need a bit of chip for 1v1
:hydreigon: Lol no
:medicham-mega: Need a lot of chip for 1v1, fake out from mmedi hits hard
:melmetal: Melmetal CC+ mag pressures it hard
:serperior: Loses
:slowbro: Prob best counter
:tangrowth: Runner up
:tyranitar: Lol no
:tyranitar-mega: Lol no
:victini: 2hko
4 switch ins in A and above is pretty crazy for a Pokémon that’s not even a wallbreaker. Then again, 2 of its biggest annoyances in zapdos and volcorona are in B+. Also all 4 get kyuremd haha I’ll get to that later. Prediction isn’t too important because Mach 10 u turn and stabs are pretty free.
2: Really easy to slap on a team. Provides tons of team support with speed control, fake out, and u turn. Rocks re
3: F A S T
Very hard to properly revenge kill without a scarfer since it can u turn on any slower mons. Very hard for offense to deal with as well.
4: U turn is a fundamentally stupid move. Basically free because you have 10000 speed and the most popular contact move punishers either lose or are afraid of u turn because magnezone. However, Volcorona and zapdos are pain. Also brings in tons of wall breakers free, namely kyurem. Kyurem beats all of the counters I mentioned and zapdos, and also baits volcorona with draco meteor to boot. Of course,u turn can support tons of threats like Kartana and Weavile.
5: Other sets
Since coverage is for nerds, you can customize your movepool quite a bit. U turn can be subbed out for quick attack or power up punch, or even niche options like thunder wave. One potion that’s become really popular lately as an anti-fat tool is encore + power up punch to mess with and set up on passive mons with an encore that basically always goes first.
So yeh lopunny really good. Really difficult to deal with for offense and is not easy on defense either. Countering can be difficult because magnezone and u turn.
Edit: forgot clefable and glisc and mlatias. Glisc falls into kyurem food. Clef ain’t bad but doesn’t take its hits that well and can be pressured a lot by bringing in stronk mons when it has to recover health to not die next time. Mlatias is kinda sorta kyurem food, and more importantly kyurem prevents it from recovering off mlops u turns which sting.
 
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Spellcaster

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Lopunny will not be suspected, or even be on the grounds of having one. Most of your reasoning as to why it could have one is fallacious and I will explain those here.

The big thing that you're missing out on here is that pretty much every team has sufficient Lop counter-measures, that could be Helmet Clefable, Slowbro, Pex + Ferrothorn (Lopunny's biggest weakness is how easy it is to chip it with hazards and such), Helmet/Scarf Lando (Scarf with HP-investment can pivot in on it, and subsequently force it out in a pinch), Scarf Rotom can wisp it, there is also Zapdos and even Moltres who can check it adequately. There are more, like Mega-Latias being able to 1v1 Lops' that don't run Axel (even then axel does a measly 77% max roll).

Point is that we have a healthy amount of counter-play to Lopunny that doesn't constrict building to an unhealthy degree like we have seen in past suspect mons like Cinderace. It's also a mon that is absolutely dependant on its partners to enable it, which they can't always do reliably even if you pair it with something that should help alleviate most of its issues. Magnezone, the one you mentioned primarily, can't simply just be brought in on mons that threaten Lop. In fact, only like 3 mons here that actually threaten Lop can be trapped by Magnezone, or are even threatened by its existence - which are Ferrothorn, Corviknight and Mega-Scizor.

Ferro knocks it off, or sets an additional layer of Spikes before being foddered off, Corviknight can avoid being trapped by U-Turning I guess if it's at Max/ Above 80~ HP vs Scarf (which is the most common one as of now), but once it takes that damage Corv rarely ever gets a chance to heal that off so i'll give that to you. Scizor, however, needs Magnezone to be scarfed for it to actually trap it since offensive variants creep Modest and just U-turn out of you, or if you're chipped, click Sand Tomb.

Then again, 2 of its biggest annoyances in zapdos and volcorona are in B+. Also all 4 get kyuremd haha I’ll get to that later.
Come again? Kyurem doesn't reliably beat Volcarona come on, only if it's rock move and you just mentioned Specs which ain't even its best set right now. Draco is such a weird move to click immediately too since you could always go Clef/Corv/Ferro or something anyway lol beforehand - Draco also is literally only run for Volcarona as well when it'll pretty much never get a good chance at clicking it so mentioning it as a mon here doesn't make sense. If I misunderstood what you meant here lmk because as far as I can see, you're just stating false stuff about what Kyurem can reliably beat for Lopunny.

-----------------------------

tldr; Lopunny is perfectly balanced, great mon but nowhere close to getting tested. Test Pult, if anything.
 
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The recent discussion about Magnezone is kind of interesting, considering how it has done the exact same thing since Gen 4 and not many have complained about it before (correct me if I'm wrong).

I personally think its presence is fine, but still can't completely disagree with the sentiment. Magnezone is undoubtedly a frustrating Pokemon to play against, especially when you are reliant on defensive Steel types to check dangerous threats. In this meta, sometimes it feels like one Pokemon (such as Corviknight) is the only viable way to blanket check certain things, and being trapped by Magnezone just leads to you getting run over with not very much counterplay.

I'd argue that one of the main factors contributing to Zone's dominance is the lack of many viable Defoggers as well as Grass and Ground checks in the tier. Corviknight and Zapdos are really the only 2 viable options when it comes to filling this role, and Magnezone takes full advantage of Corviknight's high usage.

If we tested Tornadus-T, then the tier could have more options when it comes to Defogging or checking offensive Grass and Ground types. Of course, this is not really a valid argument for whether or not we should unban a Pokemon. Still, I'd say we should at least test Torn and then test Zone if it's still as overwhelming as before.

Also, does the problem lie with Magnezone or Magnet Pull in general? For example, Probopass or Alolan-Golem would in no way be as effective as Magnezone at its job. I guess it comes down to whether or not you believe trapping is inherently uncompetitive, even if it exists in such a limited form.
 
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