Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[asterat]

Tyranitar: A ---> A-
Mega Gardevoir: A ---> A+
Mega Alakazam: A- ---> B+

Tyranitar: I'm kind of on the fence here, but leaning towards A. Tyranitar has really fallen from grace as the metagame has evolved, but he's still one of the most used mons for a reason. Hippowdon really is kind of outclassed by Landorus-T nowadays, so this dude is the main thing to support Excadrill. Of course mold breaker scarf and stuff is viable, but sand rush Excadrill is the most threatening Excadrill by a lot. Tyranitar can be a decent check to stuff like CharX and Talonflame and has a very wide movepool, making him a good supportive stealth rock setter. Recently, new developments like HP fighting Latios are really a pain though, and I think this is why he's no longer A+, but A is still good. Most people forget it can do other stuff too. I have one team that's volturn and it's built around getting in CB Tyranitar and Medicham- it works pretty well for trapping Latis without HP fight, which means rocks are most definitely permanent. Scarf is also pretty awesome, takes out Latis and Gengar. With these gone, stuff like Keldeo and Charizard-Y can go to town on the opposing team. BW keldtar is still excellent if you can check Clefable, and CharTar is also great. I don't have a ton to say here, but basically it supports Excadrill, supports Keldeo and Charizard-Y (among other special sweepers who appreciate pursuit support.) and has a really awesome movepool. Is it amazing? No, it has a lot of common weaknesses. However, I think empowering sand offense is enough to verify it's placement in the A tier, Excadrill kind of needs him. Tyranitar + Latios + Ground + Ferrothorn/Heatran + Water + Mega is a really common and solid team, and cannot function without Tyranitar.

Mega Gardevoir: This mon is interesting, and I think it should move up. The main issue is it doesn't have any physical bulk, and you need to get it in on certain mons to make it work well. If you do, it will kill things. Due to the typing and SpD, it's pretty hard to revenge kill for offense. Nowadays, stall can beat it (Doublade...) but it still puts in work there. Along with Pinsir and CharX, this is one of the few megas that has immediate jaw dropping power. Hyper voice is nuts, and all that can really take it is steels and fire types, which are downed by fighting and psychic moves respectively. It has almost no counters, and gets kills vs. balance pretty much every game if played right. The main flaw is that it has awful defense, so it is easy to revenge kill. It can take one special hit from almost anything, which means it can kill them, usually in one hit. Sorry for repetition, but once it comes in on something like Ferrothorn, very little can take its powerful hits. The speed tier is not amazing, but it is often good enough. In summary, little switches in, very few counters, bad physical defense, medicore speed. I'm not sure if it deserves A+, but I think that's enough, it's definitely as good as some other pokemon up there.

Mega Alakazam: Yep, completely agree here. I never really understood why Alakazam jumped all of a sudden, it's not that amazing. To be blunt, Alakazam is fast and powerful. It's stupidly fast, I will undeniably deign it that (it outspeed everything boosted.) However, it is not that powerful. It cannot OHKO uninvested Charizard and similar mons. With the right coverage it can 2HKO almost anything, but it really can't take any hits. Before he can even revenge kill or get off an encore, he is susceptible to priority. Unlike fast mons like Aerodactyl, Alakazam can't take any priority, and will fall to Pinsir, Dragonite, etc. This really bothers me, and makes his role as a revenge killer situational. Thundurus has a bit of bulk to taje some priority, and why he might not kill things, he can at least make them useless. Encore is only really useful against set up sweepers if Alakazam comes in the turn the set up move is used, which can only be safely facilitated through U-Turn or Volt Switch. It can also be a hinderance to support mons using stuff like stealth rock. Alakazam basically needs Psychic/Focus Blast/Shadow Ball to work well, and encore is one of its main selling points, necessary in the fourth slot. Without shadow ball... Latios can defog and roost, before finishing him off, Psychic is STAB, and Focus Blast is for steels. Even with this, he can't 2HKO everything, or OHKO where his moves are super effective. So this is my summary: very fast, but not strong enough to always revenge kill, weak to priority, and not powerful enough to sweep stuff. Doesn't sound like a B+ mon, but there's one thing I left out: Trace. Alakazam uses this do goddamn well it's ridiculous. While Landorus has dropped in usage and viability, a Mega Alakazam revenging it is ridiculous, and offense without strong priority or a mon bulky enough to take a sheer force boosted move are in serious trouble- it's pretty much always guaranteed at least the kill on Landorus or whatever it switches into. Next is protean from Greninja, which is almost just as bad, but the nuclear psychics of sheer force are not present. Zam can switch in to Heatran and absorb what's often its only attack. While those are the best examples, other abilities have uses too. Zam has some flaws, but this introduces a threatening dynamic which can make him worth the mega slot, but not always. Hence, I think B+ is appropriate.

 

[Aragorn the King]

....... That poll .........



Anyway, great week of changes imo. Super glad Toge and Doublade are finally in with the B ranks, and Mane is finally in with the As. Now...

Azumarill: S ---> A+

Thundurus: S ---> A+

Really not sure. It's dominant, yes, but has a lot of mons that stop it no matter what. I'm not sure if I'm alone with this, but I kinda think it's basically a physical equivalent of Keldeo. Maybe with the difference in speed that's too much of a stretch, but hear me out. Both are extremely dominant mons that will wreck a team once their checks/counters are gone, but need support before they are. You can't really say that collectively, Keldeo (Specs, Scarf, CM, SubCM) is better than Azumarill (AV, CB, BD), because they're so similar in nature. Thundurus isn't as impactful on the metagame as it used to be, but it's still a threat that needs to be prepared for.

My biggest qualm with these two drops is that it would leave Keldeo + CharX above them, and neither are imo significantly better. If we just had an S rank with Latios, Latias, and Ninja (and possibly Clefable... don't kill me) the drops would make sense, but now, I'm not really sure.

Latios: A+ ---> S

Only if Latias comes with it. Both are really good now, and come with certain advantages that put them basically on par with each other. Latias has the bulk to beat Lando, CharY, and Keldeo better, and also has Healing Wish, while Latios hits a bit harder and has access to Memento. Both are absolutely terrifying mons that, thanks to Psyshock, really need something dedicated to beat them. This isn't even factoring in their ability to remove hazards, which imo pushes both to S.

Mega Alakazam: A- ---> B+
Mega Aerodactyl: A- ---> B+

Just speaking comparatively, this makes total sense, because neither are as influential as Zone, Mane, or Diggersby. When I think about the meta right now, I think Rain, Sand, Zone, Ninja, Diggersby, Azumarill, and Scarf Landorus-T + Mega Manectric - these all are hugely influential, so they are A ranked. Zam and Dactyl are overall great mons that beat a lot of play styles, but just aren't comparable to their current rank. I know this may sound totally arbitrary, but they're a lot more like Starmie than Diggersby.

Quagsire: B ---> B-

Right now, physical attackers that Quagsire doesn't wall, ie. Diggersby + Heracross, are very popular. However, ones that it does wall, ie. Scizor and AV Azu are on the rise. Also, it has a pretty good matchup v. Magnezone, which is good for a stall mon. I'd say it's about as good as it was pre-zone. However, it is worse than every other B ranked mon (seriously Quag v. Rhyp...), so a drop makes sense.

Cofagrigus: Unranked ---> D

Sure. It has a cool defensive set that removes abilities, namely huge power, pure power, and aerialate, from attackers, and also can burn things and hit decently hard. It also annoys Heracross, since it removes skill link and can take a rock blast easily. The biggest problem with it is its lack of recovery, but it's still good enough for D.

Cobalion: Unranked ---> D

Not really sure what it does, but it has no outright flaws. Fast Taunt + SR + Bisharp counter + Volt Switch all sound really promising, so I really have nothing to say.

Mega Abomasnow: Unranked ---> D

Not sure what it does. On paper it sounds terrible, but if it does in fact have a niche I'm not seeing, why not?

Meloetta: Unranked ---> D

I REALLY want this to happen. My problem is idk what it does. I'm sure it has a niche and I'm not seeing it (bengay nominated it), so hopefully it will be ranked.

Metagross: Unranked ---> D

On paper it sounds really good. The only possible concern I see would be competition with Jirachi, which metagross can eliminate somewhat with much better offensive presence + beating heatran + priority. It checks Gardevoir, which is really awesome, and comes with no huge flaws. It is sand weak, which is an issue, but i think it's handling of Garde + Lati@s makes it worth D.

 

[Sergi]

All of these great and good posts motivated me to give my opinion about some mons. I'm not the most knowledgeable and expert player since I'm somewhat new to this game, but I hope my opinions could contribute something to the thread. Let's get into the material:

S → A+ Thundurus was way back in Aegislash / Mega Mawile metagame one of the most used and one of the best asset for a team. Way back offensive teams were running rampant and one of the best and most consistent playstyle; in such as offensive and most fast paced metagame DDers and things like Landorus for example were really threatening. What I mean is Thundurus was such as big force because its amazing offensive presence, unique Speed above the lati twins and below, and incredible utility in Thunder Wave that let it to stop in a pinch DDers, like Mega Tyranitar for example, that were dominant at that point; Choice Scarfer user weren't as common as now because locking into certain moves in such as fast paced and offensive metagame let them easy to take advantage of and what Jirachee said about Aegislash. That's why Thundurus was probably the best offensive utility mon. All in all, what I mean is the recent metagame's shifts have made balanced teams more and more common, in which Thundurus doesn,t fit as well, and in general the ways people teambuilding now Thundurus doesn't fit as well as before.

Maybe I said something wrong, but I hope my post contributed something!
Also, Bloo and McMeghan posts were amazing, I hope I could be as good as they are someday lol

 

[Albacore]

I kinda think people are pulling at straws to find reasons to drop Azumarill. I mean, everyone pretty much agrees it's an amazing Pokemon, and from what I can gather, the main argument for it dropping is that it has flaws and isn't quite as good as it was previously considered, and I don't think this is really an argument to drop it to A+. This isn't Deos era when being basically perfect at your job was a requirement for S rank. It's alright for an S rank to have flaws, heck, it's far easier to point out flaws in literally everything in S than it is for Azumarill. Azuamarill is easy to wear down? Thundurus and Greninja suffer from this problem a lot more. Azumarill has a few very solid switchins? Keldeo has a lot of these, some of them much dangerous than anything Azumarill can't deal with. Azumarill can't sweep teams consistently? Say hello to Charizard-X, who needs a Jolly nature to bypass the omnipresent Landorus-T, and if it does so, loses out on quite a bit of power. Really the only flaw Azumarill shares with no other S rank is its inability to really do much against defensive Pokemon and, not only does this really only apply to the Assault Vest set since Band is quite a decent wallbreaker, but also, the metagame is getting more and more offensive as we speak and Stall is pretty much nonexistent, hence the AV set being the most popular. Besides that, if Azumarill deserves to drop, then by extension, so does every other S rank since although there are problems with Azumarill, there are even worse problems with Greninja, Thundurus, Keldeo, and Charizard-X.

We know Azumarill has a few problems, yet we still use it a ton because of just how much it brings to the table. If you want to prove that Azumarill deserves to be dropped to A+, instead of showcasing its flaws, explain why its qualities are not valuable enough for it to be considered an S rank threat.

On a side note, the fact that you can easily make a case for any S rank dropping is pretty much the mark of a healthy, balanced metagame. Does this mean we should remove S rank? Probably not, although at this point I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it since I legitimately can't see any of the current A+ rank out of place in S. The line between S and A+ is getting smaller and smaller every day, so it's not surprising that we have so many nominations flying around in that area, and I doubt we'll ever truly find stability until ORAS since right now, the metagame is evolving so fast it's incredibly hard to keep up.

No opinion on MZam, MAero is really good though and deserves to move up if anything. It's one of the most unprepared for threats in the metagame, and can completely ruin the popular MagneSir teams. Just look at how good its matchup is against that one italian bunnyspam team everyone seems to be using nowadays. Walls Diggersby, counters Pinsir, checks Magnezone if it runs EQ (which I don't think it does but has the option to), and if Azumarill, Latias and Garchomp are weakened to around 50-70% (Garchomp is a sash lead anyway so it probably won't be active lategame) it basically cleans up. It's definitely a very strong Mega and a force to be reckoned with.

Cobalion seems like D rank material. Pretty okay niche Pokemon I even considered using at one point, excellent Bisharp counter, beats Latis for the most part, can definitely be placed on a team without being outright laughed at.

Quagsire kinda sucks in this meta since nothing really sets up anymore and the things that do (MHera, MPinsir, MGyara to a lesser extent) beat it anyway. I guess a case could be made for it not dropping since SD Bisharp is on the rise, but apart from that it's just nowhere near as good as Slowbro or Mola.

Metagross suffers competition from Jirachi as an MGarde counter but it does have the advantage of fitting on offensive teams a lot better, which is pretty huge when you consider that Latis are on basically every offensive team and MGarde eats them alive. It's very nice to have an MGarde switchin on offense, so for that reason, Metagross feels like a good addition to D rank, and may possibly rise even higher.

 

[Bloo]

Let's keep things civil in this thread. If you disagree with a nomination you are more than welcome to express that opinion here with a post. However, there are appropriate ways to disagree, and being abrasive and immature like some people in the posts I removed isn't one of them. It's clear some people agree and disagree with some proposals such as Azumarill's placement, so let's try and work together to come to a consensus on what should happen.

There have been various good posts made here from both sides that I'd encourage people to read and see where they stand. People seem to have this misconception that what a tournament player like myself says is an absolute change that automatically goes through, and as I said in my post, I don't want any changes to go through without input from others. Cut that out and take the time to properly argue against changes you disagree with instead of coming across as rude and posting one liners saying a certain change is "ridiculous" and maybe you'll also be listened to. If you don't, you'll end up like our friend Richie in the long run!

 

[garchomp11111]

B- ----> B Rank
Every sucessful stall teams need this guy these days.M-Cross,m-garde and m-cham are 3 huge threats for stall teams which will easily wreck them but with doublade's amazing typing and bulk,it can completely shut down all of them.Doublade also shuts down other threats such as hawlucha though they are no where as threatening as the 3 wall breaking megas.The 3 megas are enough to rise doublade a rank imo. Doublade is nearly as good as chansey and thus needs to rise.

C+ ---->B-Rank
This guy is as good as gothitelle so this blue blob needs to rise.Alafafa and some one has already mentioned how amazing it is so i won't describe this guy anymore.

 

[theV8man]

If we're lowering Azumarill, we need concrete reasons. It has flaws, but like Albacore mentions if we're deranking Azumarill based on its "flaws" then it should be at the top of the viability list no question. I just don't see how Azumarill, with its nearly flawless typing, coverage, attack, and access to priority/nice coverage moves can be considered to drop right now. As a water type, a lot of people will agree it's undisputedly the best in OU. I'm even gonna agree with RichieTheGarchomp and say that it's belly drum/choice band are being heavily underrated. Sure, it can't straight up OHKO every mon in OU, but it's a late-game sweeper, it's supposed to come in after shit has switched in on SR or taken some hits. Azumarill is the definition of S rank...

 

[Celticpride]

alexwolf Maybe this got lost in the shuffle, or maybe you aren't considering it, but would putting Magnezone to A Rank under things to discuss be possible? I've seen several people mention it in the last few pages and think it would be worth discussing with it's recent popularity.

 

[Alfalfa]

Update time:

Greninja: A+ ---> S
Crawdaunt: C+ ---> B-
Raikou: B ---> B+
Mega Manectric: B+ ---> A-
Mega Scizor: A ---> A+
Mega Gyarados: A+ ---> A
Gyarados: A- ---> B+
Terrakion: A+ ---> A
Skarmory: A- ---> B+
Chansey: A- ---> B+
Doublade: C+ ---> B-
Mew: A ---> A+
Empoleon: C ---> C+
Amoonguss: A- ---> B+
Tangrowth: C ---> C+
Ditto: C+ ---> C
Omastar: B- ---> B
Magneton: C ---> C+
Toxicroak: C- ---> C
Wobbuffet: C ---> C+
Togekiss: C+ ---> B-
Gastrodon: C ---> C+
Jirachi: Stays in B+
Victini: Stays in B+
Weavile: Stays in B-
Mega Houndoom: Stays in C+
Venomoth: C- ---> D

And that's it for now. I don't have the time to explain the changes and most of them received huge support anyway, judging by the likes in Bloo's and McMeghan's posts, and i have already discussed them with TRC and ben gay, so i don't think there will be any problem.

Important changes to discuss:

Azumarill: S ---> A+
Thundurus: S ---> A+
Latios: A+ ---> S
Tyranitar: A ---> A-
Mega Gardevoir: A ---> A+
Mega Alakazam: A- ---> B+
Mega Aerodactyl: A- ---> B+
Quagsire: B ---> B-

And a few not so important ones:

Cofagrigus: Unranked ---> D
Cobalion: Unranked ---> D
Mega Abomasnow: Unranked ---> D
Meloetta: Unranked ---> D
Metagross: Unranked ---> D

The last 5 nominations were made by ben gay, and i want to see some opinions about them. Oh and feel free to talk more about Weavile, Jirachi, Mega Houndoom, and Victini, their placement isn't final, i just let them stay where they are atm because of lack of evidence and support that suggests otherwise.

Chansey in the same rank as Alomomola is ridiculous. If Chansey drops (which I agree with), then so should Alomomola. Alomomola is really hard to wear down, but is unreliable in handling a lot of the Pokemon it is supposed to check, sans Terrakion, because it is so passive and relies on a Weak Scald + Toxic to do damage. Furthermore, any bulky Substitute user that is not weak to Scald sets up all over Alomomola At least Chansey reliably beats Greninja, which is a really useful trait (Prankster Thundurus can carry Knock Off, and Chansey hates Knock Off, so using Chansey to beat it is risky). Alomomola for B Rank.

Azumarill and Thundurus dropping sounds far-fetched, but in reality, it makes sense. While Azumarill is seen on almost every offensive team, as its ability to check Greninja, Keldeo, Charizard, etc. is really useful, it struggles to maintain offensive pressure against bulkier teams, and I have consistently found its speed to be a significant impediment in Azu's ability to keep up the offensive pressure. Belly Drum is okay, but the meta has adapted to that set, and almost every competent team will have a way to stop it from 6-0ing it. Choice Band is really good, but it lacks the bulk from Assault Vest, making it much more unreliable in handling Keldeo, Greninja, and the like. Also, most of the Pokemon Azumarill checks have a way of getting around it, even though most of them cannot take it down in two turns. Latios' Psyshock will do at least 50% to max HP Azumarill, Greninja cannot 2HKO it with Grass Knot, but can still wear it down really easily, and Keldeo just fishes for a Scald burn. Azumarill for A+ Rank.

Thundurus for A+ seems logistical in my opinion. Prankster + Thunder Wave is not as useful as it once was, and the metagame has pretty much adapted to it - most teams have a way to handle it, and offense can carry a Raikou or Mega Manectric just to handle it, which overall reduces the lethality Thundurus has against offensive teams. Thundurus for A+ Rank.

I would like to ask ben gay, what do Cobalion, Meloetta, and Metagross do that makes them worthy of being ranked? Cofagrigus is a Trick Room setter with the ability to cripple physical Pokemon like Azumarill and Medicham that are reliant on their abilities to do a lot of damage, and Mega Abomasnow is a wallbreaker, but lacks enough bulk to compensate for the fact that its speed is horrid. Meloetta had the niche of being able to handle Aegislash, but Aegis is gone, so...

 

[Alfalfa]

B- ----> B Rank
Every sucessful stall teams need this guy these days.M-Cross,m-garde and m-cham are 3 huge threats for stall teams which will easily wreck them but with doublade's amazing typing and bulk,it can completely shut down all of them.Doublade also shuts down other threats such as hawlucha though they are no where as threatening as the 3 wall breaking megas.The 3 megas are enough to rise doublade a rank imo. Doublade is nearly as good as chansey and thus needs to rise.

C+ ---->B-Rank
This guy is as good as gothitelle so this blue blob needs to rise.Alafafa and some one has already mentioned how amazing it is so i won't describe this guy anymore.

I agree with both of your nominations. Doublade is a really cool asset for stall, and its inability to be trapped by Magnet Pull and Shadow Tag is a huge boon. I was going to wait a little while for nominating Wobbuffet to B-, since it just rose to C+, but I will say that I agree and back this statement, because its ability to trap and KO a number of offensive Pokemon is a very useful for offense to have. All it really needs is offensive and Healing Wish support, and you are good to go. Again, I was going to wait a little while before nominating again, but I will back this nomination, as well as the Doublade nomination.

EDIT: Sorry I double posted

 

[dinotrek27]

RichieTheGarchomp I think the reason why it seems people don't seem to respect you is firstly, you don't seem to respect other people's viewpoints, and even if you do, you need to show it in your posting more! Secondly, the evidence that you use to support your viewpoints is often fallacious in which you only list the pros of the stuff you support and the cons of stuff you wanna drop which is not good basically. Furthermore, you tend to make overgeneralisations in your arguments which even if sorta valid, makes your argument sound childish and shallow. Please don't take this as an insult, but rather constructive criticism to help you build your knowledge about online etticute(is this how you spell it?) and to improve yourself as a member of this community :)
Now back to topic on Ninja. Generally this metagame is dominated by offense, and this gives Greninja the ideal metagame to absolutely wreck havoc. Based on the definitions of an S Rank Mon, Ninja certainly fits the bill in metagame defining, forcing offense to run Azu or Gyra or AV kyube to not lose a poke. Even defensive pokes like M-Venusaur, Heatran, Amoong, Bulky Psychics etc have to tread carefully against its powerful coverage options, ensuring ninja puts in work even against these bulkier archetypes. Ninja also greatly helps your team momentum wise, due to U Turn as well as the fact that only a select group of pokes are able to switch into it without dying like solely AV Azumaril for offense. This allows the player to go into something that can force Azu out like Kyube, Bandraptor and the like, essentially making offense sack something and stall to switch out of their Chansey or Sylveon, meaning more rocks damage on their side. Ninja also needs little support, really only needing a talon switch in and something to take advantage of the bulky stuff it lures(which any good team needs to be able to cover). Now on to flaws. It's reliance on life orb and neutrality to hazards seems to me to be it's greatest problem, as it can thus be played around and your ninja could have already killed itself midgame without touching anything much, limiting it's potential effectiveness. The frog is also as frail as a frog gets, needing volt turn or a sac to get it in. Although water dark sports a fair number of resistances, there is no way it can switch into stuff without compromising it's longevity and don't even think about trying to tank Yzards fire blasts or specs keldeos hydro pumps. Thundurus, the poke in S rank which I feel has the most similarities to ninja, can actually check stuff like M-Scizor, choice locked Earthquake users and makes many pokes think twice of spamming that attack itself. For Ninja, I won't even think about switching it into the Latis even if I was convinced that they were going for the psychic move simply because they can tank one attack and smash it's face in with Dragon nuke of space. I might talk abit more about this tmr it's like 2am here in Singapore but these are some points your might find worthwhile to consider!

 

[Durant]

Time for me to write up a brick wall of text :O

Azumarill I am kind of on the fence about. I mean surely it has multiple sets it can effectively use and it's a great glue for offensive teams but it does have it's flaws. The main flaw being that it kind of gets overloaded with jobs. It has no way to recover back it's health ever without Wish passing meaning that after a few times off switching in on Keldeo, Lati@s, Greninja and Stealth Rock it will be to weak to really do much anymore. It also doesn't really have a high reward like other Pokemon as mentioned. Still it's really easy to use though so I can see it going either way.

Thunderus imo deserves to drop. It's priority Thunder Wave which is what I think one of the main reasons to use him just isn't that useful anymore. Set up sweepers like Mega Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados aren't as common anymore as they used to be which does hurt Thunderus as he could check them with Thunder Wave. Also a lot of things that Thunderus hates have gone up in usage. Pokemon like Mega Manectric and Raikou which could check Thunderus rose up, Gastrodon is getting a little more usage and Thunderus has trouble with it, Choice Scarf Landorus T also checks it while other checks like Mega Venusaur are still common. Still a great Pokemon but not as good anymore as it once was.

I also think both the Lati@s should move up. Both similarily to Azumarill check a bunch of scary stuff like Keldeo while being really easy to fit onto any offensive team. Latios hits harder which is the main reason to use him over Latias. However in my opinion Latias is the better one of the two. Latias her extra bulk allows her to do a few cool things Latios can't like avoid the 2 hit KO from Choice Specs Keldeo's Icy Wind which is pretty useful in some situations. Latias her Healing Wish is also a godsend as it essentailly gives your weakened win condition a second live and a free switch in which is imo a great thing. Latios should rise to S and if Latios goes up so should Latias.

Disagreeing with Mega Aerodactyl moving down as it is still a really solid late game cleaner, can check stuff like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir and even counter Mega Pinsir if it has Knock Off. I don't have a lot to say about it but it is still good enough for A- imo and a really underrated threat.

Also disagreeing with Mega Alakazam moving down since it is pretty anti meta atm. Rain is on the rise and Mega Alakazam is a great check to rain teams thanks to Trace meaning it is one of the few Pokemon that can actually claim to be one of the few Pokemon to be able to revenge kill Swift Swim Pokemon. It can also revenge kill the likes of Sand Rush Excadrill and trap Magnezone which is also useful. Unlike other revenge killers it isn't deadweight against stall since it has useful moves like Taunt and Encore to screw over a lot of Pokemon. Surely it struggles with priority and it can't always OHKO things that aren't weak to it's attacks but it still deserves A- imo.

It is about time for Quagsire to drop. It struggles with important physical attackers like Mega Heracross, Diggersby and Mega Pinsir and it isn't as needed anymore on stall teams as it once was. The Pokemon it walls like Charizard X aren't that big of a deal to stall teams since there are other Pokemon that can wall those Pokemon like Rhyperior. I could even see Quagsire in C+ rank as I don't think it is on par with Doublade who is almost necaserry for stall teams these days.

Mega Gardevoir shouldn't rise at all imo. It struggles against offense which is the main playstyle at the moment. It may be good against stall but Doublade usage going up sucks for Mega Gardevoir as it can't break through stall as good anymore. Against offense it's a Lati@s and Keldeo check at best and kind of useless outside of that. Surely it will kill something on offense if it gets a free switch but that is really difficult without bringing it in after something fainted. If anything Mega Gardevoir should drop because it isn't as good anymore as it was right after the Aegislash ban.

Tyranitar don't really have an opinion about. It is pretty good and sets up sand but everytime I use it he doesn't really accomplish much outside of setting sand, rocks and dieing really.

Cofagrigus is actually really underrated at the moment. It walls Pokemon like Mega Heracross without too much trouble which is a great asset. Mummy is really good as many Pokemon like Charizard X, Mega Pinsir, Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham realy on their abilities to truly be effective. It also sets up Trick Room and is one of the premier Trick Room setters for Trick Room teams. Lack of reliable recovery is it's biggest flaw but it is definetly D rank worthy at least. Maybe even to C-.

This is just a bit of theorymon but Cobalion seems pretty decent. It sets rocks for voltturn teams and can tank a couple hits with it's nice defenses. It has a great speed stat and other useful support moves like Taunt if Stealth Rock and Volt Switch aren't good enough for you. Not something I would see myself using too often but it looks decent.

No opinion on Mega Abomasnow, Metagross and Meloetta as I have no idea what their niche would be in the current metagame.

Still think Gastrodon and Gothitelle should move up. My original post didn't get that much attention so reposting it here:

Gastrodon should definetly move up to C+. Gastrodon is pretty great in this metagame just because it can deal with so many threats like Thunderus, Mega Manectric, Excadrill, Victini, Raikou, sand offense, Heatran and most importantly rain teams which are on the rise. Aside from running niche Pokemon like Ludicolo rain teams usually can't deal with Gastrodon that well. It has some flaws like being a huge Mega Venusaur magnet and competition with Quagsire but every team has something for Mega Venusaur by default and Quagsire is mainly used on full stall + Storm Drain is really useful.

Also nominating Gothitelle for around C ranks because it is really useless. Surely it easily defeats stall teams but that niche is kind of useless with barely any stall teams around. Also the metagame is becoming way more offensive and when you have Gothitelle you are playing 5-6 right from the start because Gothitelle does nothing against offense. Also Doublade can give it problems when Gothitelle doesn't run Shadow Ball so even then it can't take on stall teams by itself.

 

[Magcargo]

Only if Latias comes with it. Both are really good now, and come with certain advantages that put them basically on par with each other. Latias has the bulk to beat Lando, CharY, and Keldeo better, and also has Healing Wish, while Latios hits a bit harder and has access to Memento. Both are absolutely terrifying mons that, thanks to Psyshock, really need something dedicated to beat them. This isn't even factoring in their ability to remove hazards, which imo pushes both to S.

I feel that Latias should stay in A+Rank. A large problem I have with Latias in the current metagame is that it isn't as powerful as Latios. To put this into perspective:

184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Mew: 212-251 (62.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Mew: 253-298 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see this is a very notable difference in power. Latias's lack of power prevents it from doing things such as 2HKOing Clefable, OHKOing defensive Landorus-T after SR and OHKOing Mega Heracross. Another problem with Latias is that it has a greater amount of 4MSS than Latios (Defog and Healing Wish / Roost are required leaving Latias with only 2 coverage moves as opposed to 3). This makes Latias significantly easier to counter and makes it harder for latias to beat certain SR setters (Heatran for example). Latias also is slightly less versatile, being unable to run Choice Scarf and Dual Screen sets.

I'm not saying Latias is bad, since its access to Healing Wish and ability to counter Pokemon such as Keldeo is a huge asset over its brother, but I feel these flaws make Latias less effective than Latios and as such, a rank below it.

 

[theV8man]

Here's my previous post about why Abomasnow shouldn't be ranked:

Avid Trick Room user here,
Mega Abomasnow really doesn't impress me at all. First of all full TR teams rarely have hazard support because none of the Pokemon on the team are weak to SR. Mega-Abomasnow's SR weakness is thus aggravated on these teams. Next, in Trick Room, you either have those bulky slow Pokemon that switch in to attacks after you set up (Conkeldurr), or you have those frailer ones where you usually need a free switch but it's OK because they hit so damn hard (Crawdaunt). Sometimes you even have a combination of both (Mawile)! Mega-Abomasnow can't really switch in to anything, and unboosted 135 attack, even if it's mixed, is frankly pathetic for a TR sweeper. You're not breaking past any competent mixed walls and a lot of steel types with its power/coverage. And it takes up your mega slot. Does this thing have any redeeming factors? Well, it's pretty bulky but its typing neutralizes this... at least it has priority...

Mega Abomasnow => Unranked
That's right, I'm trying to kick a Mega off the tier list. You know why? Because this thing is only on the viability ranking because of its TR niche, yet I'd rather use unranked shit like Rampardos or even Pangoro as a TR sweeper over this.

It's pretty bad as a TR Poke, and I don't see how you'd use it outside of TR so keep Abomasnow unranked plz

 

[LZH14]

aw i saw the poll post but then left and when i came back all the funny posts were deleted

regarding the d rank noms: wait what niche do any of these serve at all? obama is bad even in TR, not sure what the others do although i guess metagross works as an offensive check to mega gardevoir which is nice
@megazam/aero: i still don't quite understand why these two went up in the first place but i do think they should go back down
TTar: a- might be kinda underselling ttar a bit, the scarf set and support set are both really nice
latios: not really feeling this one, granted latios is an AMAZING mon but i'm just not quite sure if it's S rank material, someone convince me first
the rest i have no particular opinion on

edit: removed accidental user tags, im dumb

 

[Reddragonn]

Mega Abomasnow: D

Abomasnow is a good mixed attacker, good counter to rain, and good mega on Trick Room offense. Snow Warning is a decent ability, it can make use of Blizzard without missing and can induce hail residual damage to beat sash users. Is a viable mega, the problem of it is the poor typing and speed(that can be good in Trick Room).

Pros:

-Good bulk
-Good mixed attacker
-Residual damage on hail
-Blizzard without missing
-Acess to Leech Seed
-Good check to Dragons and Water-types.

Cons:

-Slow outside of Trick Room
-Poor typing
-Cannot enjoy leech seed because of the poor typing

My first post on this thread, please inform something wrong a_a

 

[craing ;_;]

I would like to ask ben gay, what do Cobalion, Meloetta, and Metagross do that makes them worthy of being ranked? Cofagrigus is a Trick Room setter with the ability to cripple physical Pokemon like Azumarill and Medicham that are reliant on their abilities to do a lot of damage, and Mega Abomasnow is a wallbreaker, but lacks enough bulk to compensate for the fact that its speed is horrid. Meloetta had the niche of being able to handle Aegislash, but Aegis is gone, so...

i was more so hoping for other people's opinion on the pokemon i nominated. i mainly suggested them as a way to spark some debate as to whether they deserve a placement or not. i was hesitant myself if whether they would be able to function in the current meta, but i can only vouch for cobalion, cofag, and aboma. cobalion can fit on primarily volturn teams that are prone to bisharp and its moveset can be tailored made to suit your team (taunt fks mew :0). cofag can act as an offensive tr setter as well as a phys def wall. its defensive set isn't outclassed by the likes of doublade as it does have a better support movepool sporting wisp, tspikes, split, etc. abomasnow gets a bad wrap for being a bad mega but it can work in ou if given the correct support. its dual stabs can 2hko most of ou besides tran,zor, chansey and sp. def mew but thats just a testament to the switch-ins it has. it also has the ability to set up hail, and while that may be seen as the worst weather compared to the others, it can also be seen as a neutral weather. this means it can neutralize teams that depend on its weather(more so sand and rain since those actually have abusers) while at the same time threatening those weather starters which gives u a pretty good adv against such teams. its cons being a ton of weaknesses and slow as dirt does warrant it alot of support but it can work and who says you have to use it with trick room ?_?.

 

[theV8man]

Mega Abomasnow: D

Abomasnow is a good mixed attacker, good counter to rain, and good mega on Trick Room offense. Snow Warning is a decent ability, it can make use of Blizzard without missing and can induce hail residual damage to beat sash users. Is a viable mega, the problem of it is the poor typing and speed(that can be good in Trick Room).

Pros:

-Good bulk
-Good mixed attacker
-Residual damage on hail
-Blizzard without missing
-Acess to Leech Seed
-Good check to Dragons and Water-types.

Cons:

-Slow outside of Trick Room
-Poor typing
-Cannot enjoy leech seed because of the poor typing

My first post on this thread, please inform something wrong a_a

The problem is that it isn't even good on Trick Room. Horrendous typing, lacking power, and bad vs. steel types, as well as taking up a mega slot makes it very unfavorable on TR. Outside of TR, it's even worse, so I don't see how this is even D rank material. As for the pros that you mentioned, most dragons run fire coverage. The best thing about Obama is that it can be useful vs. rain, but this isn't good enough of a niche tbh seeing as there are many excellent pokemon that already fill this role.

Even though it's kinda hard to switch into, theres so much stuff that can just outspeed/KO because of its slowness/typing.

 

[Celticpride]

I feel that Latias should stay in A+Rank. A large problem I have with Latias in the current metagame is that it isn't as powerful as Latios. To put this into perspective:

184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Mew: 212-251 (62.1 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Mew: 253-298 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see this is a very notable difference in power. Latias's lack of power prevents it from doing things such as 2HKOing Clefable, OHKOing defensive Landorus-T after SR and OHKOing Mega Heracross. Another problem with Latias is that it has a greater amount of 4MSS than Latios (Defog and Healing Wish / Roost are required leaving Latias with only 2 coverage moves as opposed to 3). This makes Latias significantly easier to counter and makes it harder for latias to beat certain SR setters (Heatran for example). Latias also is slightly less versatile, being unable to run Choice Scarf and Dual Screen sets.

I'm not saying Latias is bad, since its access to Healing Wish and ability to counter Pokemon such as Keldeo is a huge asset over its brother, but I feel these flaws make Latias less effective than Latios and as such, a rank below it.

Latios has some 4mss himself. He almost always runs Draco Meteor, Psyshock and Defog. It can pick it's coverage move of choice, but it also wants to run Roost if you want to use it to check things. Roost is also helpful because the Rocks and LO damage racks up quickly, especially if you are coming in on hazards to Defog. The nature of Draco Meteor also leads to taking multiple resisted hits to come in over the course of a battle.

Basically, Latios usually wants Roost over a coverage move because LO damage, Rocks damage (and it comes in on hazards a lot) and the fact that it takes a lot of resisted hits on switch-ins leads to it getting worn down quickly.

 

[Reddragonn]

The problem is that it isn't even good on Trick Room. Horrendous typing, lacking power, and bad vs. steel types, as well as taking up a mega slot makes it very unfavorable on TR. Outside of TR, it's even worse, so I don't see how this is even D rank material. As for the pros that you mentioned, most dragons run fire coverage. The best thing about Obama is that it can be useful vs. rain, but this isn't good enough of a niche tbh seeing as there are many excellent pokemon that already fill this role.

Even though it's kinda hard to switch into, theres so much stuff that can just outspeed/KO because of its slowness/typing.

Abomasnow don't lacks power, 132 base ATK and SPATK are not bad. Wood Hammer and Blizzard are powerful STAB moves and can OHKO many Water, Dragon and Flying-type Pokemon.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

below are some replays of Mega Aboma on Trick Room:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-154402179

How you can see, Abomasnow can pull down flying/rock types with easiness in Trick Room.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-155533347

Here other replay that Abomasnow shows it power in use of Blizzard and Ice Shard.

 

[Flamebot]

Metagross is actually pretty decent.
I know it's main set is EQ, Bullet punch, Meteor mash, Hammer arm but you can actually opt to run Zen Headbutt or rock slide instead of Earthquake now, with the Aegislash ban.

Assault vest Metagross check the Lati twins, Clefable, Mega Venasuar, and many other Pokemon in the tier depending on the coverage moves. I personally believe that it is worthy of above D rank, but let's put it there first.

It does have flaws tho, being weak to common types and being slow for OU standards.

My opinion is horrible tho xD.

 

[skies]

alexwolf ben gay others, can we discuss Togekiss moving up a rank as well? I made a post a bit back that you can find here that states my reasoning for it. I'm not going to reiterate, just notifying you guys in case you missed it :>.

Anyways, actual points to discuss :o

Mega Alakazam is really great. It has its flaws, which I do acknowledge including its situational ability, not-so-great bulk, and the opportunity cost that comes with using it over say Mega Heracross. I don't really think Trace is negative, though, it's if anything positive in most situations like Tracing Protean or Prankster. Before I talk about flaws I've personally noticed, I'd like to discuss the positive traits of Mega Alakazam. Firstly, it's quite strong and fast and I don't really think people can deny that. It most certainly is not as strong as Mega Gardevoir, adding to the opportunity cost. It has the coverage to keep things going with moves like its powerful Psychic, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, Hidden Power, and some non-attacking, but useful, moves such as Taunt, Calm Mind, or Encore. I understand it doesn't provide real synergy, and that it can't switch in, that's why I use it alongside Scizor. Not only does it create a sort of 'Mega guessing game', but Scizor is somewhat slow and its powerful U-turns allow Mega Alakazam to come in a lot easier. It does have the apparent flaw of being kind of sucky when non-Mega, but I'll raise the Mega Venusaur card here; Mega Venusaur is so not bulky and kinda sucks before switching in, so does Mega Alakazam. It's just much more apparent with Mega Alakazam. I think it deserves to stay where it is, not move down or move up.

Also, agree with Tyranitar and Thundurus but everything's already been said, also disagree with Quag but I'll make that some other time. n_n.

 

[Valmanway]

Mega Alakazam for B+ Rank is kind of odd to me, since he's such an underrated Pokemon in the current metagame. Trace is a godsend to him, as it allows him to copy Swift Swim and Sand Rush, thus allowing him to check the likes of Kabutops and Excadrill; an impressive feat indeed. His base 150 Speed is fantastic, as even with a Modest nature, he can outrun anything with base 130 Speed, so Greninja, Thundurus, Latios, and Keldeo are all pretty much screwed. But then Trace comes in again, copying the abilities of the foes that he revenge kills, such as Greninja's Protean and Thundurus' Prankster (Prankster Substitutes are quite enjoyable, indeed), as well as Landorus' Sheer Force, Landorus-T's Intimidate, Heatran's Flash Fire, and Magnezone's Magnet Pull as a few examples, so depending on who you face, revenge killing with Mega Alakazam is like killing two birds with one stone. But the best part is he isn't overly dependent on his ability to get the job done, as 150 Speed and 175 Special Attack (with a Modest nature, mind you!) are usually more than enough to put the pressure on offensive teams. His power is phenomenal, his Speed is godlike, and while he's already a powerful revenge killer, Trace can potentially make him an exceptionally great revenge killer. I'd even argue him rising to A Rank, but that's another beast entirely.

tl;dr Mega Alakazam is an incredibly underrated Pokemon, and I strongly disagree with lowering his rank. Keep Mega Alakazam at A- Rank.

 

[trc]

unfixable, togekiss already rose to B- in the most recent update

i feel pretty strongly that azumarill should drop to a+ rank, because no one is denying that its best set (assault vest) as an amazing offensive check to a number of offensive pokemon, and that its cb and bd sets back up its placement. however, i don't feel that in this metagame, azumarill is really as dominant as it was a month ago, in a more balance / bulky offensive metagame. currently the metagame has gone more offensive with some heavy stalls, and azumarill, the once best pokemon in xy, has simply become less dominant and has lost its s rank worthy factor, which i think is pretty plain to see. it's a fantastic pokemon sure, but it isn't comparable with latios or greninja in terms of its dominance.

as for thundurus, this is one i'm not sure about, and one i'll probably have to make comparisons in order to decide a placement. about a month ago i felt this was one of the strongest s ranks, with its amazing power, speed, versatility, and of course, prankster thunder wave. i guessif i use the logic i applied to azumarill i can't really see this as dominant the way latios and greninja are, but i also don't see thundurus at all below keldeo or charizard x. i feel that if thundurus drops, those two have to as well, which is why i kind of think charizard x should drop to a+ and thundurus should stay with keldeo at s, but again, i'm not too sure on this one yet.

100% sure latios is s rank worthy, best pokemon in the metagame right now, ridiculously common on both the ladder and in tournaments, an amazing offensive pokemon with the general bulk and typing to check several other offensive powerhouses while also having reliable recovery to consistently do so, defog is great obviously, fantastic offensive options and even earthquake is becoming more common again meaning heatran isn't the best answer, everything gets smacked by some sort of coverage, i'm definitely sure on this one.

i agree with ttar a-, gard a+, zam b+, aero b+, quag b- for comparisons sake, look at a- rank and see if you think mega alakazam is on the same level as magnezone.

i still think weavile and mega houndoom should rise by one rank so yeah that's my opinion on those.

as for ben gay's d rank nominations, cofagrigus and cobalion are the only ones i'm sure about, as the former is a good pokemon on full tr teams and has a very real defensive niche, while the latter is an option on voltturn weak to bisharp. mega abomasnow always pops up as being bad, but it seems d rank worthy at the very least, meloetta probably has some niche but no one uses it lol, and metagross i don't think should get a rank because everything it does it almost always done better by jirachi or some other offensive pokemon bleh.

 

[theV8man]

Abomasnow don't lacks power, 132 base ATK and SPATK are not bad. Wood Hammer and Blizzard are powerful STAB moves and can OHKO many Water, Dragon and Flying-type Pokemon.



below are some replays of Mega Aboma on Trick Room:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-154402179

How you can see, Abomasnow can pull down flying/rock types with easiness in Trick Room.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-155533347

Here other replay that Abomasnow shows it power in use of Blizzard and Ice Shard.

On the first replay, Abomasnow took down both the genies, I'll give you that, but there are TR sweepers that can do that and more that aren't even mega. On the second replay Gerdevoir misses a Focus Blast...

232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 354-418 (92.1 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

That aside, 132 in both attacking stats in TR sweeper standards is not that good. Why use Aboma when you can use Hera, Crawdaunt, or something else with better typing, power, and coverage?

unfixable, togekiss already rose to B- in the most recent update

i feel pretty strongly that azumarill should drop to a+ rank, because no one is denying that its best set (assault vest) as an amazing offensive check to a number of offensive pokemon, and that its cb and bd sets back up its placement. however, i don't feel that in this metagame, azumarill is really as dominant as it was a month ago, in a more balance / bulky offensive metagame. currently the metagame has gone more offensive with some heavy stalls, and azumarill, the once best pokemon in xy, has simply become less dominant and has lost its s rank worthy factor, which i think is pretty plain to see. it's a fantastic pokemon sure, but it isn't comparable with latios or greninja in terms of its dominance.

I personally don't see how the rise of offense is bad for Azumarill considering that the bunny is a ginormous pain to practically everything that you'd see on offense. Offense typically doesn't use Pokemon that want to switch into Azumarill's stabs. I feel more inclined to use it these days, but that might just be me. And if there is a rise in so called "heavy stall" this would be worse for Greninja than Azumarill.