252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 330-393 (102.1 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Nope. It'd have to run max SpD to avoid the OHKO and even then Greninja is faster so clean 2HKO.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
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Nope. It'd have to run max SpD to avoid the OHKO and even then Greninja is faster so clean 2HKO.
Lol nevermind then :P
I stand corrected.
my thoughts on ninja... it's good. like. realllllly fuckin good. that being said I'm not convinced for s. knock off is everywhere, which kind of sucks for a mon that relies so heavily on LO to deal significant damage... but that's still p minor in the grand scheme of things as most common knock off mons are ninja-weak, so I won't use that as an argument against it (nd don't fuckn call me out on it either)
my main point is it isn't nearly as hard to wall as people tend to let on -- there are other options besides chansey, you feel
sdef resttalk gyara (non-mevo) doesn't have much trouble taking on ninja nd snipping its balls with twave. assvest azu is going to take a dent from grass knot, but it's not enough to 2hko iirc (I may be wrong tho, so lemme know)... switch in on ice beam/hydro nd you're golden. sdef empoleon is nb either (although it's too "niche" for some i guess). rotom-w doesn't really struggle w/ non-hp grass variants, and sdef mega gard is p great against almost all ninja sets, tanks hits and kos np... and then theres the myriad of scarfers that can ohko it, so there's that. Also, talonflame.
in conclusion:
ninja is a p bitchin mon, but not quite s rank levels of bitchin imo. also pls refrain from flipping ur shit if you disagree as tends to happen a lot on this thread... I am taking all its pros into consideration too ty
my main point is it isn't nearly as hard to wall as people tend to let on -- there are other options besides chansey, you feel
sdef resttalk gyara (non-mevo) doesn't have much trouble taking on ninja nd snipping its balls with twave. assvest azu is going to take a dent from grass knot, but it's not enough to 2hko iirc (I may be wrong tho, so lemme know)... switch in on ice beam/hydro nd you're golden. sdef empoleon is nb either (although it's too "niche" for some i guess). rotom-w doesn't really struggle w/ non-hp grass variants, and sdef mega gard is p great against almost all ninja sets, tanks hits and kos np... and then theres the myriad of scarfers that can ohko it, so there's that. Also, talonflame.
in conclusion:
ninja is a p bitchin mon, but not quite s rank levels of bitchin imo. also pls refrain from flipping ur shit if you disagree as tends to happen a lot on this thread... I am taking all its pros into consideration too ty
Saying that the only thing able to wall Greninja is Chansey is a huge exaggeration and just wrong. You also mentioned Clefable, a full counter to Greninja no matter what, and it's very easy to keep it at full health thanks to reliable recovery and Magic Guard. There are also AV Kyurem-B (for offensive teams), SpD Mew, SpD Jirachi, and Cresselia. And i am only talking about hard counters. Depending on whether Greninja is running HP Grass or Grass Knot, with the vast majority of Greninja running Grass Knot, any bulky Rotom-W is a great hard check or even hard counter if it's using a SpD spread. Then you also have some good checks that offensive teams can use, such as Scarf Keldeo, Assault Vest Azumarill (can take two Grass Knot), and SR Jirachi, so it's not like the options of dealing with it are limited.
The only thing that could make Greninja an S rank threat are Spikes, but i have a hard time believing Spikes are suddenly so great in a metagame where hazard control is not difficult at all, even against offensive teams. I would like to see some discussion about Spikes Greninja though, as it seems to be a great new set that's worth discussing.
You can't just name a Pokemon's quailities and expect it to go up. You need to compare it to the Pokemon in its current rank and the rank you are proposing.
On that note, I have a bit of an odd nomination. Shiftry for D.
While I am still experimenting a bit with the optimal EVs, I think Shiftry is viable in this meta on Charizard Y teams that have trouble with Pokemon such as Azumarill and Tyranitar. To start off, here are the Pokemon in ranks S-B+ that Shiftry can easily revenge kill with a mixed set (as in only set you should be using)
(requires a bit of mega evolution mindgames, however, meaning it must be evolved before Shiftry is out)
(not Scarf)
(needs SR and a bit of prior damage, but this thing is a huge threat to sun anyway, so this is a huge plus for Shiftry)
(not a problem for Sun, but can't touch Shiftry without Gyro Ball and is 2HKOd)
(needs a bit of prior damage)
(also needs prior damage)
(loses to Knock Off + Solarbeam regardless of EVs, and a burn does not 100% best Shiftry)
Sorry, sprites are dumb, still it proves the point.
Obviously listing a ton of Pokemon we all know it beats is pretty useless, But I think that a Clorophyll sweeper not weak to Talonflame or most other revenge killers that can also handle some of the Pokemon most problemstic to Charizard Y and sun in general is definitely worth acknowledging, even if it isn't anywhere near perfect.
While I haven't found the perfect EVs, the basic set is Life Orb 4 attacks, being Low Kick, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, and Solarbeam, and must be paired with Charizard Y. Knock Off is always superior to Dark Pulse as most of its targets (like the Latis) have higher special defenses. Also it's Knock Off.
Now, Shiftry does have huge some flaws, those being turning into garbage outisde sun, and trouble breaking through bulkier walls, as well as competiton with other, though mostly niche as well, sun wallbreakers. It also has problems breaking through common Pokemon like Mega Heracross. However, I believe Shiftrys offensive typing and good mixed attacking stats, as well as a way to stop certain revenge killers on Charizard Y teams should grant it a spot on the list, and if people agree, possibly an analysis.
If this post gets any support/replies/criticism/anything, I'll be glad to work on the EVs and possibly make a new team with Shiftry to help prove the point, if anyone wants that.
Only thing I can find fault with (I think shiftry is a fun one but I haven't used a mixed shift in a good long while) is if it is capable of capitalizing enough off of the few precious sun turns it does get is enough. I think it is since its not sweeper shift but I'd like to see it a little bit more before throwing my full support as well (still the idea of something reliably spamming solarbeam makes me want it in D).
And we just dropped Lando-I to A+ so are the standards of S now low enough for Greninja or is seriously now good enough to Rand alongside the rest of the metas gods? I don't think it is but idk its still top of line A+ I guess due to its speed and coverage.
Greninja isn't terribly hard to check/counter, and it's also easy to revenge. It's frail and doesn't like neutral or SE priority, and it's not so fast that Scarfers can't revenge it. Talonflame, Mega Manectric, Mega Aero, Mega Zam, Mega Scizor (if it used Ice Beam), ScarfChomp, some Dragonite and Scarf Lando-T can all revenge it cleanly off the top of my head, there's probably others.
Greninja is not going to S Rank any time soon. It is highly dependent on Life Orb to do a decent amount of damage, and it is so easy to revenge kill because its bulk equates to that of glass. If Landorus is A+, then Greninja is A+ too, because Greninja is going to die to any Pokemon that it does not KO.
Yeah Greninja is great and all but pretty much every good team nowadays is gonna have at least two offensive/defensive checks to it. There is also the fact that Greninja's power, even with Life Orb, is a bit lacking. Against defensive Pokemon it relies very heavily on residual damage, because it can't cleanly OHKO Pokemon like Mega Venu, Skarmory, or even Heatran, allowing them to finish off a potentially weakened Greninja. If it hit a bit harder, I'd consider it for S but for now I think it's ok at A+.
Mew, Jirachi, and Cresselia are weak to Dark Pulse, a move Greninja now commonly runs, so I'm not sure why you mention them as counters. AV Kyurem-B can only switch in once because of its Stealth Rock weakness and neutrality to Ice Beam. Rotom-W can check some coverages but it absolutely needs a SpDef spread which doesn't help against the vast majority of things it wants to wall. Scarf Keldeo and AV Azumarill are good checks, but they can both be beaten under the right circumstances (especially Azumarill, a Grass move is always a 2HKO with Stealth Rock, and it can be worn down easily because of its lack of recovery).
The reason why Spikes Greninja is so great is because you can easily take advantage of the things that usually switch into you. Not one hazard remover will directly switch into it, and most Pokemon who switch in are passive enough that you can get more than one layer, very easily. Against offensive teams you don't need your coverages as much, and a single layer of Spikes is more than enough because offense's usual monsters are less bulky.
If you want to run Dark Pulse you have to forgo important coverage, which means that other Pokemon wall you. I didn't take into account Dark Pulse because the most common set is Grass Knot and HP Fire on the last two slots from my experience, though i guess HP Fire is easy to forgo with Magnezone as a partner.
As for AV Kyurem-B, it doesn't need to check Greninja more than once, because if you are giving so many switch-in chances with an offensive team to Greninja you are doing something wrong. Not to mention that with anti-SR support Kyu-B can check Greninja more than once, and against offensive teams, one switch in is all that Kyu-B needs to do some serious work.
I am going to try out Spikes Greninja one of those days and come back with more feedback, because my experience with this set is a bit lacking.
Bloo
Banned deucer.
This has always been one of my favorite threads to constantly check on Smogon. It's really useful to have a list like the one provided in the OP available to you when you're team building or searching for ideas. Some of the posts made in this thread also serve as a good source of entertainment, but that's another story. With that said, I was discussing some of the rankings here with McMeghan and others and we both felt like sharing some of our thoughts on certain Pokémon, which are provided below.
These are just my opinions and I definitely don't want these to go through without input from others, so I'd appreciate thoughts on some of the proposals here, specifically the ones in 'rises' and 'drops.'
Rises
| C+ → B- or B | Currently sitting in C+, I'd like to nominate the Pokémon equivalent of Spongebob's Mr. Krabs for either B- or B. There's no denying Crawdaunt has several flaws, some being disappointing Speed and defenses. However, when it comes to punching holes into the opposing team, few Pokémon come close to Crawdaunt's ability to do so once it finds the opportunity. This is especially the case in the current metagame, where balanced team archetypes reign. These type of teams usually contain defensive Psychic-types like Slowbro, Ground-types like Gliscor, and other things like Heatran to cover various offensive threats, and Crawdaunt rips a huge hole into teams reliant on these cores with Adaptability boosted CB or LO Knock Offs and Crabhammers, which can be further augmented by SD and DD in the case of LO. The little guy admittedly has a harder time against more offensive teams, but it does have priority in the form of Aqua Jet to sort of mitigate the issue. All in all, I think Crawdaunt deserves a slight raise. It's a fun thing to use and has been seeing use to great effect lately.
| B → B+ | I think B isn't telling enough of just how good Raikou is and I'd like to make a case for it moving up to B+. I <3 this thing so much in XY and it's probably on most of my preferred teams right now. Everyone always compares it to Mega Manectric, but that's an injustice to Raikou from my perspective because it has a few nifty benefits over its competitor aside from not taking up the slot you have for your mega evolution. There's Specs and to a lesser extent CM, but what makes Raikou a star to me is that you can use AV on it, suddenly turning it into one of the best switch-ins you can have for things like Thundurus-I. With AV, you can even tank hits from monsters like Keldeo if need be (here's an instance where it benefited me in a Smogon Tour match on turns 20-21), and it's an all around useful pivot. It has great Speed, outpacing a lot of common threats, and is good at giving you momentum. Its coverage is nearly identical to Mega Manectric with the exception of Raikou being able to use Extrasensory to hit Venusaur decently hard. Having this in the same rank with Mega Manectric isn't exactly ideal, though. However, part of McMeghan's nomination includes Mega Manectric rising to A-, which I personally would do along with this Raikou nomination.
| A → A+ | This might be slightly controversial, but I think there's a case for Mega Scizor rising to A+. I honestly wasn't a big fan of this thing in the past, but after using it a lot more recently, it has impressed me. Most people use the standard bulky SDer with Roost; however, a more offensive use of Mega Scizor with Swords Dance | Superpower | Bug Bite | Bullet Punch and enough Speed to outpace defensive variants of Rotom-W and Heatran has been on the rise, breaking through several of its common checks with some prior damage (an example of 'prior damage' would be CBB's use of Spikes Greninja + SD Bisharp to break down the aforementioned Scizor's harder-to-break-down checks like Keldeo). Aside from that, its defenses allow it to function well both defensively and special defensively, allowing it to check dangerous threats like Mega Gardevoir and even setup on things like Landorus-T. All in all, Mega Scizor is a force and good against most play styles and is a viable candidate for a rise.
Drops
| A+ → A | I remember making a very long post about how the metagame will adapt to Mega Gyarados back when it began to gain popularity, and I think that is exactly what happened. Some may disagree, but I no longer see Mega Gyarados as an A+ Pokémon and think it's more fitting for A. As a DDer, Mega Gyarados has trouble sweeping as consistently as once did. Ferrothorn, Choice Scarf Landorus-T running Superpower, Slowbro with Grass Knot – all of these Pokémon are very common and essentially put a stop to Gyarados' attempts at a sweep. There's also other things like Choice Scarf Terrakion and Mega Venusaur that give it issues, and while you can claim Mega Gyarados can be supported to remove these guys in order to facilitate a sweep, those Pokémon aren't exactly very easy to remove. Long story short, while Mega Gyarados is still very good, it has fallen from grace in my opinion and doesn't matchup in consistency to the other Pokémon in A+.
| A- → B+ or B | This has identical issues to its Mega and performs worse as a DDer from my point of view. It does have benefits in the form of feigning mega and being able to use a Lum Berry + Bounce to perform better against some of its usual answers, but regardless, it still has plenty of answers and isn't A- material as a DDer. It can reap the benefits of its typing to use more defensively oriented sets, but its weakness to SR really does limit what it can do in comparison to other bulky Water-types. I think regular Gyarados is more suited to either B+ or B depending on where you guys stand, but it honestly doesn't compare in efficiency and consistency to some of the other threats in A- and even in lower rankings.
| A+ → A | Someone above me mentioned this, and I agree. As an SRer it faces competition from Garchomp, who is in A and arguably fulfills the role more effectively. As a Scarfer, Landorus-T outshines it. Aside from that, Landorus-T and various other things like Gliscor, Slowbro and even Clefable are quite effective at keeping Terrakion in its place. Offensively, there are plenty of Pokémon that trouble it, such as Azumarill and Scizor with their priority, and faster threats like the Lati twins and Greninja. Terrakion is good, but it's not on the same level in comparison to other Pokémon in A+ and would be more at home in A in this metagame, where Fighting-types have been adapted to quite well.
| A- → B or B- | Let's face it, Skarmory isn't very good anymore, and whether if it was very good at any point is debatable if you ask me. Skarmory's biggest flaw is that it's Passive N Bad, which makes it very easy to exploit. As a Defogger, it's extremely easy to pressure to keep it from removing your entry hazards, especially with the rise of Spikes Greninja. In addition to that, the rise of Magnezone has hindered it tons, making it even harder for the bird to fend off what it wants to. Its drop is pretty self explanatory, so I won't babble on more, but I do think it's evident Skarmory's effectiveness in XY isn't very high and will continue to drop as things progress.
Other Considerations
These are mainly thoughts I feel like sharing for fun, not nominations per say.
| I know Azumarill is in the conclusion reached list and this isn't a nomination per say, but in the future, I could see a case for it dropping from S to A+. Set-wise, its most effective set is AV. Belly Drum honestly isn't exactly spectacular and has plenty of answers (Rotom-W and Mega Venusaur with enough speed or revenge killing with Talonflame as examples), and can't check the Pokémon it'd like to. CB hits extremely hard but isn't as easily placed on teams as AV since without AV, Azumarill has a harder time checking the Pokémon it'd like to. AV Azumarill is really good; however, it doesn't hit as hard as it would like to in order to better wear and break down some of its defensive answers like Slowbro and is very susceptible to being worn down itself by hits from the threats it's used to keep in place, such as Keldeo and Latios as examples. What makes a Pokémon S rank is largely subjective, but personally, I don't see Azumarill as one that is on par with monsters like Charizard-X and Thundurus-I even if one of its sets is very easy to slap on a team and usually effective.
| Favorite competitive 'mon. Just wanted to give Latios a quick shoutout because it's awesome. Love this thing, literally on every team ever. Versatile and does everything you need and well to boot while being extremely threatening despite its Pursuit weakness. MOVE IT TO S!
On the real though, Latios is on some new god flow in this metagame. Aegislash and Mawile leaving has made this stronger than anyone anticipated. If there's any one Pokémon that you can slap on a team and call it a day, it's probably Latios. Why? As a supporter, it's one of the best Pokémon you could ask for. It excels as a Defog user and given its typing and stat distribution, serves a fantastic offensive check to things like Keldeo and Charizard-Y, something arguably no other Pokémon can do offensively on the same level as Latios. To add to its ability to support the team, it can even run Memento to give its teammates a setup opportunity if need be.
Offensively, Latios needs no introduction, as Draco Meteor and Psyshock coming off of this babe is nothing to scoff at. It does have some issues deciding between its coverage moves, but what you decide to use as a third attack can be customized according to your needs and preferences. You can use HP Fire to scare off Ferrothorn and the like; you can use Earthquake, a rather underrated slot on Latios, to unexpectedly remove Heatran and pave the way for your Scizor or Clefable; you can run Thunderbolt to KO Skarmory and prevent it from removing your hazards, and so on. You can even forgo Defog if you don't feel you need it and use Roost with three attacks, providing you reliably recovery.
It has its issues, primarily its Pursuit weakness, but I can definitely see a case for Latios rising at some point in the future. It's arguably the best offensive support Pokémon in the tier while being hard to switch into itself, and it does everything it is meant to do consistently and efficiently. It is seen on nearly every team nowadays and holds #1 in Smogon Tour statistics for a reason and as the metagame keeps developing, eyes should be kept on Latios as a potential raise.
| I saw Jirachee nominated this for S. I won't necessarily comment on whether I think it is an S rank Pokémon, but will instead comment on the recent surge of Spikes usage on Greninja.
Spikes, while limited in terms of what it's good on, are quite nice in XY and on Greninja in my opinion. Greninja is likely the best user of the move and has plenty of chances to set Spikes up on things it threatens out, such as Heatran for example, even if only one layer. One layer of Spikes in conjunction with SR puts a massive amount of pressure on your opponent, wearing the opposing team downs quite well. Think of what uses Defog in this metagame: mainly Latios and Latias, and others like Mandibuzz, Zapdos and Skarmory, all of which Greninja kills, enabling it to keep its own Spikes in play. Couple Greninja with other Pokémon that can pressure those Defoggers and you'll find yourself able to keep those hazards down more often than you think.
Even if your opponent does manage to remove them at some point, certain Pokémon on their team may already have been worn down enough thanks to that one layer of Spikes and SR, allowing something on your team to clean up once the opportunity arises (if anyone knows CBB's team, Keldeo would be an example of what his team aims to wear down with hazards for an eventual Scizor sweep). Spikes aren't as good on something like Ferrothorn because it is more easily Defogged on, but because Greninja can pressure Defoggers on its own, it makes for a very effective user of the entry hazard.
In terms of Rapid Spin, Starmie loses to Dark Pulse or HP Grass, the two most common coverage moves on Spikes Greninja, so that's not really an issue. Excadrill is trickier to handle because of its Speed under sand. However, think of the common archetype of team Excadrill is commonly seen on. Those teams usually have a lot of trouble with Greninja, so instead of Spiking, you can fire off your coverage moves and pose equally as much of a threat as a layer or two of Spikes would pose on these teams. That's what makes Spikes Greninja so very effective: its ability to defeat the things we consider hazard controllers and pressure the teams they are frequently seen on. It may seem like a gimmick, but it's anything but. While it does have to forgo a coverage move in favor of Spikes, Hydro Pump | Ice Beam | Dark Pulse or HP Grass is still scary, and I'd encourage everyone to give it a go some time.
Thanks for reading my loves!
These are just my opinions and I definitely don't want these to go through without input from others, so I'd appreciate thoughts on some of the proposals here, specifically the ones in 'rises' and 'drops.'
Rises
Drops
Other Considerations
These are mainly thoughts I feel like sharing for fun, not nominations per say.
On the real though, Latios is on some new god flow in this metagame. Aegislash and Mawile leaving has made this stronger than anyone anticipated. If there's any one Pokémon that you can slap on a team and call it a day, it's probably Latios. Why? As a supporter, it's one of the best Pokémon you could ask for. It excels as a Defog user and given its typing and stat distribution, serves a fantastic offensive check to things like Keldeo and Charizard-Y, something arguably no other Pokémon can do offensively on the same level as Latios. To add to its ability to support the team, it can even run Memento to give its teammates a setup opportunity if need be.
Offensively, Latios needs no introduction, as Draco Meteor and Psyshock coming off of this babe is nothing to scoff at. It does have some issues deciding between its coverage moves, but what you decide to use as a third attack can be customized according to your needs and preferences. You can use HP Fire to scare off Ferrothorn and the like; you can use Earthquake, a rather underrated slot on Latios, to unexpectedly remove Heatran and pave the way for your Scizor or Clefable; you can run Thunderbolt to KO Skarmory and prevent it from removing your hazards, and so on. You can even forgo Defog if you don't feel you need it and use Roost with three attacks, providing you reliably recovery.
It has its issues, primarily its Pursuit weakness, but I can definitely see a case for Latios rising at some point in the future. It's arguably the best offensive support Pokémon in the tier while being hard to switch into itself, and it does everything it is meant to do consistently and efficiently. It is seen on nearly every team nowadays and holds #1 in Smogon Tour statistics for a reason and as the metagame keeps developing, eyes should be kept on Latios as a potential raise.
Spikes, while limited in terms of what it's good on, are quite nice in XY and on Greninja in my opinion. Greninja is likely the best user of the move and has plenty of chances to set Spikes up on things it threatens out, such as Heatran for example, even if only one layer. One layer of Spikes in conjunction with SR puts a massive amount of pressure on your opponent, wearing the opposing team downs quite well. Think of what uses Defog in this metagame: mainly Latios and Latias, and others like Mandibuzz, Zapdos and Skarmory, all of which Greninja kills, enabling it to keep its own Spikes in play. Couple Greninja with other Pokémon that can pressure those Defoggers and you'll find yourself able to keep those hazards down more often than you think.
Even if your opponent does manage to remove them at some point, certain Pokémon on their team may already have been worn down enough thanks to that one layer of Spikes and SR, allowing something on your team to clean up once the opportunity arises (if anyone knows CBB's team, Keldeo would be an example of what his team aims to wear down with hazards for an eventual Scizor sweep). Spikes aren't as good on something like Ferrothorn because it is more easily Defogged on, but because Greninja can pressure Defoggers on its own, it makes for a very effective user of the entry hazard.
In terms of Rapid Spin, Starmie loses to Dark Pulse or HP Grass, the two most common coverage moves on Spikes Greninja, so that's not really an issue. Excadrill is trickier to handle because of its Speed under sand. However, think of the common archetype of team Excadrill is commonly seen on. Those teams usually have a lot of trouble with Greninja, so instead of Spiking, you can fire off your coverage moves and pose equally as much of a threat as a layer or two of Spikes would pose on these teams. That's what makes Spikes Greninja so very effective: its ability to defeat the things we consider hazard controllers and pressure the teams they are frequently seen on. It may seem like a gimmick, but it's anything but. While it does have to forgo a coverage move in favor of Spikes, Hydro Pump | Ice Beam | Dark Pulse or HP Grass is still scary, and I'd encourage everyone to give it a go some time.
Thanks for reading my loves!
"Tournament Director, blast off at the speed of light!"
It's been a while since I've last posted in this thread, which is kind of a shame considering how it is one of the main attraction of the ever-active OU subforum. I also often visit it to read what's the general opinion about the latest trends, and it's quite the useful thread when you need a threat list or some options you didn't think of while teambuilding. After giving some thoughts to the current rankings, I went to see Bloo and some other friends to discuss about some possible changes, which I'll present below.
Let's get down to business :
Rises
| A → A+ | I'd propose to move up Gardevoir for the simple reason that she's pretty much the single best Wall and Stall Breaker in the current metagame. What really differentiates her from the other (Mega) Stall Breaker like Heracross, Medicham or Charizard, is that Gardevoir just need 3 offensive moves to put a ton of pressure as soon as it enters the field against any defensive core (Psyshock, Hyper Voice and Focus Blast), unlike Medicham (Thunder Punch/Ice Punch) or Charizard (Earthquake/Roost). She basically has the speed Heracross wants, the lack of SR weakness Charizard wants and the coverage Medicham wants. On top of that, she can even decide which checks she want to hinder with her last move (Will-O-Wisp for Scizor/Jirachi and Taunt for Chansey/Doublade). Some players even went a different road with defensive sets, which aren't too bad apprently.
I realize she's frail and doesn't bring much defensive value to the team, but it's really not hard to bring such Pokemon on the field in XY with the access to many reliable volturners such as Rotom, Landorus or Raikou, to name a few (I mean, you can even use Crawdaunt or non-sash Alakazam in this meta). She poses such a threat once she's on the field that she has no trouble Mega-Evolving to abuse her pretty good speed and start wrecking havoc. She can even often tank a hit thanks to her Special Defense, which doesn't let her turn into a liability against offense.
| A → A+ | I'm honestly surprised Mew isn't in A+ already. Mew is one of the hardest Pokemon to kill and even wear down in the current metagame. I don't really need to present its versatility and access to a myriad of incredible support moves (WoW and Knock Off being the best, closely followed by Defog and SR). What is really amazing with Mew is that it's a pain to literally every playstyle. It can also checks a lot of dangerous sweepers depending on the EV spread you give it.
Basically, Mew sticks around for so long, while little by little wearing down your opponent's Pokemons that it will almost always leave its mark on the battle. Its consistency and success on both the ladder and the tournament scene makes me think it's one of the best candidate for the A+ rank.
| B+ → A- | Mega-Manectric is kind of a nightmare for pretty much every offensive team. Its speed and coverage, as well as the access to Intimidate gives it everything you want when facing an offensive team (power, speed and pseudo-bulk).
While it sometimes has troubles mega-evolving, Mega Manectric shines when it comes to giving free switches to frail Pokemons that typically have a hard time coming on the field, such as Gengar or Crawdaunt. What's really appealing with Manectric is its ability to check a lot of threats that have the possibility to completly destroy a team once they set up (Mega Scizor, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame for example). In that sense, Manectric brings so much support for its team that it's one of the best Mega to look for when teambuilding.
Its power combined to its overall utility makes me think it deserves to move up from the B-Rank.
| C+ → B- | Doublade is no Aegislash, but it's one the best fit you can think of for any defensive teams. The amount of troublesome Stallbreakers it checks (Gardevoir, Heracross, Medicham, Hawlucha, Close Combat Pinsir, etc) is unmatched and that makes its niche pretty desirable for any teambuilder. Unlike non-Shed Shell Skarmory, it cannot be trapped either.
What I really like about Doublade is that it's not an offensive liability either, unlike many Stallers. Its attack is correct enough to be used against offensive team (it even has access to priority, what more do you want?), and doesn't turn it into a setup-bait. Maybe ben gay could add his own opinion on the matter, considering he's been using it with success recently. All in all, its niche is so interesting that it makes Doublade B- Rank worthy.
| C → C+ or B- | Empoleon is one of the only Defog user that doesn't straight up lose to Heatran, which gives it one hell of a great niche already, considering Heatran is one of the most common (and one of the best) SR setter of the metagame.
To make things even better, it is also a great check to some of the most used Pokemon of XY such Latios (and Latias obviously) or Greninja. It also has access to Stealth Rock itself if you want to totally control the hazard game with it. Scald makes sure it isn't a set-up bait and it also has access to interesting moves such as Knock Off.
The fact that it can beat Heatran one-on-one alone for a Defoger makes Empoelon really attracting. I'm sure ben gay could bring some of his experience on the subject, given how much he's been using it lately!
Now, I'd like to finish with two propositions. They are only propositions because I'm not sure myself if I'd rank the Pokemons I'm gonna mention soon in their new tiers. Let's just consider what's going to follow as food for thoughts and discussion.
Drops
| A → A- | Don't get me wrong, I'm an absolute fan of Tyranitar, even in XY, but there are many reasons as to why I think it needs to move down a little bit in the ranking.
I do realize Tyranitar is incredible and unique at what it does. Pursuiting the Lati, which are everywhere, and bringing Sand support for Excadrill is amazing. The fact is that Tyranitar gives a free turn to a lot of very dangerous Pokemons you typically don't wanna switch into (Medicham, Heracross, Keldeo to name a few). To make things worse, you often have to save it when you use it in a sand-themed team, which means you'll give a free turn to your opponent and he could even abuse it to pull some shenanigans such as Sub Mega Hera or CM Keldeo. On top of that, while Sand Offense is still a good and reliable playstyle, it became so popular that everyone prepares for it a lot more nowadays. It's not as great as it once was.
I'd move down Tyranitar even more if I wasn't such a fan of the Scarfed set, which is as good as ever. It is the reason why it still deserves to be an A-ranked Pokemon in my opinion.
| A- → B+ | I think everyone agrees that Mega-Alakazam is a very unique Mega. Trace is one of the most interesting ability to abuse in the metagame. It also has such an incredible Speed and coverage that it's one of the best anti-offense Pokemon to consider for your team.
Now, Alakazam has some pretty awful flaws going for it. For one, it has a really hard time ever coming on the field (and even Mega-Evolving sometimes). You pretty much will always have to put it after something died. Even when it managed to come on the field and Mega-Evolved, ithas troubles even staying in. Its fragility makes it scared of pretty much any priority or scarfer. To makes things worse, it's weak to U-Turn (hello Landorus-T), which means you'll give the momentum to your opponent whenever you will find yourself in that situation. Finally, it doesn't add any defensive value to its team, unlike other anti-offense Mega such as Manectric. For all these reasons, I think Alakazam is more suited to be ranked in B than somewhere in A.
Other Considerations
| S → A+ | It's a given that Azumarill is one of the best Pokemon of XY. Its role as an offensive glue for a lot of team is unparalleled. Azumarill isn't perfect tho, and I'm gonna mention what I consider to be its flaws (and thus, the reasons as to why Azu is more suited for A+ than S).
Belly Drum Azumarill rightfully died down in usage. You can usually spot it from miles away from the team preview or the way your opponent plays it. If it set up early games (where people would assume it's Assault Vest), it will not sweep as something alive will likely stop it in its track. If your opponent keeps it healthy for the late game, it's pretty safe to assume it'll be a Belly Drum set and you'll make sure to not let it set-up. Even if it does, there is nothing sure about the fact that it will sweep you either, as many common OU Pokemon can take a +6 Aqua-Jet and revenge kill it.
The Choice Band set is pretty underrated at the moment, but is truely great. The thing is, without the bulk provided by Assault Vest, you will definitly miss the Special Defense boost and Azumarill won't be able to check what you'd want it to check with your team (Keldeo and Lati@s mainly). It's still a great Pokemon, don't get me wrong!
As for the most common set (Assault Vest), while it's a good check to many dangerous threats, it can be abused by some support Pokemon to lay down their hazards (Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc) or set-up (Clefable, Mega-Scizor, etc) since Azumarill simply doesn't hit hard enough without the Choice Band boost. On top of that, even with an Assault Vest, it does fear Psyshock from Lati@s and the burn from Scald Keldeo, two threats many people check with Azumarill.
Overall, Azumarill is a fantastic Pokemon. But I think its flaws in the current metagame doesn't let it be part of the S-Rank.
| A+ → S | Probably my most controversial proposal. Latios is currently one of the most influential Pokemon of XY. It's simply amazing at everything you want it to do. Without any surprise, it saw the most amount of usage in Smogon Tour so far, and is a driving force on the ladder too.
Like in BW, Tyranitar is still around to ruin its life when given the opportunity, but that doesn't seem to stop the blue eon from dominating the tier like it does at the moment. Latios has an incredible speed tier which gives it the opportunity to check any somewhat frail slower Pokemon by the virtue of destroying them with its powerful Draco Meteor. Even better, its unique typing lets it check Charizard Y and Keldeo, which is the reason so much players use it in their offensive team. With its naturally good build, Latios can often stick around for a while thanks to its access to Roost
Latios is also one of the best support Pokemon you can dream of for your team. It is the premier Defoger of the metagame, which is incredible by itself. It can also use Memento to give a free set up to frail Pokemons such as Hawlucha or Crawdaunt for example.
Now that I've talked about its defensive utility, I'd like to mention how much of an offensive nuke Latios is. Aside from Draco Meteor and Psyshock/Psychic, it has access to a plethora of offensive options that lets it hinder pretty much all its check. Earthquake, Surf, Thunderbolt, HP Fire, HP Fight, Surf, you can just pick the one that fits your team the best.
I realize Latios can't run all the options I've just mentionned, but it usually only needs to run one or two to be a big asset to your team. Now that Spikes are getting popular again, it even has the possibility to make Stall life miserable.
To sum things up, Latios has a great typing and a great speed tier, an access to very diverse and strong moves, as well as the possibility to support its teammates with Defog/Memento. It also has a reliable recovery move to stick around when needed/possible. Thanks to all these traits, it's useful against literally every playstyle and makes it one of the most metagame-defining Pokemon.
Let's get down to business :
Rises
I realize she's frail and doesn't bring much defensive value to the team, but it's really not hard to bring such Pokemon on the field in XY with the access to many reliable volturners such as Rotom, Landorus or Raikou, to name a few (I mean, you can even use Crawdaunt or non-sash Alakazam in this meta). She poses such a threat once she's on the field that she has no trouble Mega-Evolving to abuse her pretty good speed and start wrecking havoc. She can even often tank a hit thanks to her Special Defense, which doesn't let her turn into a liability against offense.
Basically, Mew sticks around for so long, while little by little wearing down your opponent's Pokemons that it will almost always leave its mark on the battle. Its consistency and success on both the ladder and the tournament scene makes me think it's one of the best candidate for the A+ rank.
While it sometimes has troubles mega-evolving, Mega Manectric shines when it comes to giving free switches to frail Pokemons that typically have a hard time coming on the field, such as Gengar or Crawdaunt. What's really appealing with Manectric is its ability to check a lot of threats that have the possibility to completly destroy a team once they set up (Mega Scizor, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame for example). In that sense, Manectric brings so much support for its team that it's one of the best Mega to look for when teambuilding.
Its power combined to its overall utility makes me think it deserves to move up from the B-Rank.
What I really like about Doublade is that it's not an offensive liability either, unlike many Stallers. Its attack is correct enough to be used against offensive team (it even has access to priority, what more do you want?), and doesn't turn it into a setup-bait. Maybe ben gay could add his own opinion on the matter, considering he's been using it with success recently. All in all, its niche is so interesting that it makes Doublade B- Rank worthy.
To make things even better, it is also a great check to some of the most used Pokemon of XY such Latios (and Latias obviously) or Greninja. It also has access to Stealth Rock itself if you want to totally control the hazard game with it. Scald makes sure it isn't a set-up bait and it also has access to interesting moves such as Knock Off.
The fact that it can beat Heatran one-on-one alone for a Defoger makes Empoelon really attracting. I'm sure ben gay could bring some of his experience on the subject, given how much he's been using it lately!
Now, I'd like to finish with two propositions. They are only propositions because I'm not sure myself if I'd rank the Pokemons I'm gonna mention soon in their new tiers. Let's just consider what's going to follow as food for thoughts and discussion.
Drops
I do realize Tyranitar is incredible and unique at what it does. Pursuiting the Lati, which are everywhere, and bringing Sand support for Excadrill is amazing. The fact is that Tyranitar gives a free turn to a lot of very dangerous Pokemons you typically don't wanna switch into (Medicham, Heracross, Keldeo to name a few). To make things worse, you often have to save it when you use it in a sand-themed team, which means you'll give a free turn to your opponent and he could even abuse it to pull some shenanigans such as Sub Mega Hera or CM Keldeo. On top of that, while Sand Offense is still a good and reliable playstyle, it became so popular that everyone prepares for it a lot more nowadays. It's not as great as it once was.
I'd move down Tyranitar even more if I wasn't such a fan of the Scarfed set, which is as good as ever. It is the reason why it still deserves to be an A-ranked Pokemon in my opinion.
Now, Alakazam has some pretty awful flaws going for it. For one, it has a really hard time ever coming on the field (and even Mega-Evolving sometimes). You pretty much will always have to put it after something died. Even when it managed to come on the field and Mega-Evolved, ithas troubles even staying in. Its fragility makes it scared of pretty much any priority or scarfer. To makes things worse, it's weak to U-Turn (hello Landorus-T), which means you'll give the momentum to your opponent whenever you will find yourself in that situation. Finally, it doesn't add any defensive value to its team, unlike other anti-offense Mega such as Manectric. For all these reasons, I think Alakazam is more suited to be ranked in B than somewhere in A.
Other Considerations
Belly Drum Azumarill rightfully died down in usage. You can usually spot it from miles away from the team preview or the way your opponent plays it. If it set up early games (where people would assume it's Assault Vest), it will not sweep as something alive will likely stop it in its track. If your opponent keeps it healthy for the late game, it's pretty safe to assume it'll be a Belly Drum set and you'll make sure to not let it set-up. Even if it does, there is nothing sure about the fact that it will sweep you either, as many common OU Pokemon can take a +6 Aqua-Jet and revenge kill it.
The Choice Band set is pretty underrated at the moment, but is truely great. The thing is, without the bulk provided by Assault Vest, you will definitly miss the Special Defense boost and Azumarill won't be able to check what you'd want it to check with your team (Keldeo and Lati@s mainly). It's still a great Pokemon, don't get me wrong!
As for the most common set (Assault Vest), while it's a good check to many dangerous threats, it can be abused by some support Pokemon to lay down their hazards (Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc) or set-up (Clefable, Mega-Scizor, etc) since Azumarill simply doesn't hit hard enough without the Choice Band boost. On top of that, even with an Assault Vest, it does fear Psyshock from Lati@s and the burn from Scald Keldeo, two threats many people check with Azumarill.
Overall, Azumarill is a fantastic Pokemon. But I think its flaws in the current metagame doesn't let it be part of the S-Rank.
Like in BW, Tyranitar is still around to ruin its life when given the opportunity, but that doesn't seem to stop the blue eon from dominating the tier like it does at the moment. Latios has an incredible speed tier which gives it the opportunity to check any somewhat frail slower Pokemon by the virtue of destroying them with its powerful Draco Meteor. Even better, its unique typing lets it check Charizard Y and Keldeo, which is the reason so much players use it in their offensive team. With its naturally good build, Latios can often stick around for a while thanks to its access to Roost
Latios is also one of the best support Pokemon you can dream of for your team. It is the premier Defoger of the metagame, which is incredible by itself. It can also use Memento to give a free set up to frail Pokemons such as Hawlucha or Crawdaunt for example.
Now that I've talked about its defensive utility, I'd like to mention how much of an offensive nuke Latios is. Aside from Draco Meteor and Psyshock/Psychic, it has access to a plethora of offensive options that lets it hinder pretty much all its check. Earthquake, Surf, Thunderbolt, HP Fire, HP Fight, Surf, you can just pick the one that fits your team the best.
I realize Latios can't run all the options I've just mentionned, but it usually only needs to run one or two to be a big asset to your team. Now that Spikes are getting popular again, it even has the possibility to make Stall life miserable.
To sum things up, Latios has a great typing and a great speed tier, an access to very diverse and strong moves, as well as the possibility to support its teammates with Defog/Memento. It also has a reliable recovery move to stick around when needed/possible. Thanks to all these traits, it's useful against literally every playstyle and makes it one of the most metagame-defining Pokemon.
" Surrender now or prepare to fight! "
in all the talk of stuff that walls greninja/doesn't wall greninja, how has resttalk gyara not been a larger topic for discussion i mean look at this shit:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 118-140 (30 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 118-140 (30 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^nb. then you twave and problem solved.
also I was in the middle of typing this when Bloo/McMeghan posted all their business. i don't have too much of an opinion on most of those mons tbh, except for gyara. I realllly don't think gyara should drop. I mean, if it were based on its offensive set alone, yeah, but the resttalk set is just so good.
for other stuff on the list I agree mega man should go up, but I think A+ is pushing it. don't get me wrong I love the thing atm, but that's a p huge jump, and it really does struggle against defensive teams (fuck you chansey), but at the very least it still provides some momentum even if it can't hurt shit too much. A sounds good to me...
and I could see latios rising to s simply because it busts my balls every time I face it even though I hate using it (latias 4 lyfe)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 118-140 (30 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 118-140 (30 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^nb. then you twave and problem solved.
also I was in the middle of typing this when Bloo/McMeghan posted all their business. i don't have too much of an opinion on most of those mons tbh, except for gyara. I realllly don't think gyara should drop. I mean, if it were based on its offensive set alone, yeah, but the resttalk set is just so good.
for other stuff on the list I agree mega man should go up, but I think A+ is pushing it. don't get me wrong I love the thing atm, but that's a p huge jump, and it really does struggle against defensive teams (fuck you chansey), but at the very least it still provides some momentum even if it can't hurt shit too much. A sounds good to me...
and I could see latios rising to s simply because it busts my balls every time I face it even though I hate using it (latias 4 lyfe)
I don't usually post in this thread too much but i think I may have something to add to the discussion this time.
In my experience, there are very, very few pokemon that restrict teambuilding as much as Greninja does. I'm a very offensive player, and every time I try to build a new team, I find myself wondering: "how do i not lose to a greninja with this particular coverage?". This is why I end up slapping an AV Azu on almost every team, because outside of that, Greninja is not as easy to counter as some people said in the above posts. Like, at all. The number of things that avoid the 2hko from every coverage move Greninja can viably run is really limited, and these pokemon usually don't fit on most offensive teams. If you don't have a super solid answer to it, you will have to hope it lacks the right coverage move, and scouting for it can be quite costly (if this was a suspect discussion which probably won't happen, I would argue that the frog is quite centralizing, at least from my point of view :x ) . Moreover, as Greninja threatens every single defogger in the metagame, it's an excellent choice if you need a pokemon that helps keeping your hazards on the field, which is huge. This positive trait also makes it an excellent spikes setter as nothing will come in to remove them. It has two big flaws, which are its bad bulk and weakness to priority depending on the type it changes into, which makes it significantly easy to check if you have priority users, but this is what greninja has teammates for.
TL;DR I think of Greninja as a truly defining force in today's metagame, as it forces the most common playstyle, that is offense, to adapt in ways that may limit its overall effectiveness, and de facto makes true Hyper Offense hard to build, because these frailer teams will struggle to prevent Greninja from getting kills, due to its speed and coverage. The amount of pressure it puts on offensive builds is why i would not oppose to Greninja moving to S-Rank.
In my experience, there are very, very few pokemon that restrict teambuilding as much as Greninja does. I'm a very offensive player, and every time I try to build a new team, I find myself wondering: "how do i not lose to a greninja with this particular coverage?". This is why I end up slapping an AV Azu on almost every team, because outside of that, Greninja is not as easy to counter as some people said in the above posts. Like, at all. The number of things that avoid the 2hko from every coverage move Greninja can viably run is really limited, and these pokemon usually don't fit on most offensive teams. If you don't have a super solid answer to it, you will have to hope it lacks the right coverage move, and scouting for it can be quite costly (if this was a suspect discussion which probably won't happen, I would argue that the frog is quite centralizing, at least from my point of view :x ) . Moreover, as Greninja threatens every single defogger in the metagame, it's an excellent choice if you need a pokemon that helps keeping your hazards on the field, which is huge. This positive trait also makes it an excellent spikes setter as nothing will come in to remove them. It has two big flaws, which are its bad bulk and weakness to priority depending on the type it changes into, which makes it significantly easy to check if you have priority users, but this is what greninja has teammates for.
TL;DR I think of Greninja as a truly defining force in today's metagame, as it forces the most common playstyle, that is offense, to adapt in ways that may limit its overall effectiveness, and de facto makes true Hyper Offense hard to build, because these frailer teams will struggle to prevent Greninja from getting kills, due to its speed and coverage. The amount of pressure it puts on offensive builds is why i would not oppose to Greninja moving to S-Rank.
[06:35 pm] <&dekzeh> greg is retarded in the same way sand exca is retarded
[06:35 pm] <&dekzeh> it makes HO nearly unviable
[06:35 pm] <&dekzeh> it forces you to pack random do nothing checks turning any potential offense team into shitty balance and a healthy metagame should have all playstyles equally viable
(this is an old quote, Sand Exca isn't retarded anymore)
I'd also like to point out that Greninja is a huge pain for any HO team, seeing how nothing commonly used on HO teams can actually switch in on it after Stealth Rock (and it's not like many HO teams actually bother using Defog anyway). Azumarill has to withstand heavy pressure whenever it switches in on Greninja, as 16/240 AV Azumarill gets into Grass Knot's range after two switches into Stealth Rock and two Hydro Pumps (a specific yet likely scenario). AV Kyurem-B can only switch-in on Ice Beam once after Stealth Rock damage, too, and so does regular Gyarados, who is always KOed by Stealth Rock + Grass Knot, Mega or not. As such, whenever Greninja gets to come in (protip: pair it with Volturn), HO teams either sack something or switch in Azumarill, an extremely important Pokémon for any team featuring it, and see it getting worn down fast. Again, just like Jirachee said, all of those checks are worn down by Spikes, which Greninja itself can use.
By the way, even though it was pretty bad a few weeks/months ago, Dark Pulse is very useful on Greninja right now, being an easily spammable STAB with no drawbacks that hits many "new" threats such as Mew and Jirachi for a ton of damage. Mega Venusaur is also significantly less common right now, which makes Extrasensory less useful.
Bloo and McMeghan just made amazing posts, by the way. The meta is always changing, and I think people should care more about being as precise as possible with the higher ranks (like Bloo and McMeghan did) than caring so much about nominating gimmicks for C-/D-rank. Just my opinion, of course.
[06:35 pm] <&dekzeh> it makes HO nearly unviable
[06:35 pm] <&dekzeh> it forces you to pack random do nothing checks turning any potential offense team into shitty balance and a healthy metagame should have all playstyles equally viable
(this is an old quote, Sand Exca isn't retarded anymore)
I'd also like to point out that Greninja is a huge pain for any HO team, seeing how nothing commonly used on HO teams can actually switch in on it after Stealth Rock (and it's not like many HO teams actually bother using Defog anyway). Azumarill has to withstand heavy pressure whenever it switches in on Greninja, as 16/240 AV Azumarill gets into Grass Knot's range after two switches into Stealth Rock and two Hydro Pumps (a specific yet likely scenario). AV Kyurem-B can only switch-in on Ice Beam once after Stealth Rock damage, too, and so does regular Gyarados, who is always KOed by Stealth Rock + Grass Knot, Mega or not. As such, whenever Greninja gets to come in (protip: pair it with Volturn), HO teams either sack something or switch in Azumarill, an extremely important Pokémon for any team featuring it, and see it getting worn down fast. Again, just like Jirachee said, all of those checks are worn down by Spikes, which Greninja itself can use.
By the way, even though it was pretty bad a few weeks/months ago, Dark Pulse is very useful on Greninja right now, being an easily spammable STAB with no drawbacks that hits many "new" threats such as Mew and Jirachi for a ton of damage. Mega Venusaur is also significantly less common right now, which makes Extrasensory less useful.
Bloo and McMeghan just made amazing posts, by the way. The meta is always changing, and I think people should care more about being as precise as possible with the higher ranks (like Bloo and McMeghan did) than caring so much about nominating gimmicks for C-/D-rank. Just my opinion, of course.
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This has always been one of my favorite threads to constantly check on Smogon. It's really useful to have a list like the one provided in the OP available to you when you're team building or searching for ideas. Some of the posts made in this thread also serve as a good source of entertainment, but that's another story. With that said, I was discussing some of the rankings here with McMeghan and others and we both felt like sharing some of our thoughts on certain Pokémon, which are provided below.
These are just my opinions and I definitely don't want these to go through without input from others, so I'd appreciate thoughts on some of the proposals here, specifically the ones in 'rises' and 'drops.'
Rises
| C+ → B- or B | Currently sitting in C+, I'd like to nominate the Pokémon equivalent of Spongebob's Mr. Krabs for either B- or B. There's no denying Crawdaunt has several flaws, some being disappointing Speed and defenses. However, when it comes to punching holes into the opposing team, few Pokémon come close to Crawdaunt's ability to do so once it finds the opportunity. This is especially the case in the current metagame, where balanced team archetypes reign. These type of teams usually contain defensive Psychic-types like Slowbro, Ground-types like Gliscor, and other things like Heatran to cover various offensive threats, and Crawdaunt rips a huge hole into teams reliant on these cores with Adaptability boosted CB or LO Knock Offs and Crabhammers, which can be further augmented by SD and DD in the case of LO. The little guy admittedly has a harder time against more offensive teams, but it does have priority in the form of Aqua Jet to sort of mitigate the issue. All in all, I think Crawdaunt deserves a slight raise. It's a fun thing to use and has been seeing use to great effect lately.
| B → B+ | I think B isn't telling enough of just how good Raikou is and I'd like to make a case for it moving up to B+. I <3 this thing so much in XY and it's probably on most of my preferred teams right now. Everyone always compares it to Mega Manectric, but that's an injustice to Raikou from my perspective because it has a few nifty benefits over its competitor aside from not taking up the slot you have for your mega evolution. You can use AV on Raikou, and suddenly it becomes one of the best switch-ins you can have for things like Thundurus-I. With AV, you can even tank hits from monsters like Keldeo if need be (here's an instance where it benefited me in a Smogon Tour match on turns 20-21), and it's an all around useful pivot. It has great Speed, outpacing a lot of common threats, and is good at giving you momentum. Its coverage is nearly identical to Mega Manectric with the exception of Raikou being able to use Extrasensory to hit Venusaur decently hard. Having this in the same rank with Mega Manectric isn't exactly ideal, though. However, part of McMeghan's nomination includes Mega Manectric rising to A-, which I personally would do along with this Raikou nomination.
| A → A+ | This might be slightly controversial, but I think there's a case for Mega Scizor rising to A+. I honestly wasn't a big fan of this thing in the past, but after using it a lot more recently, it has impressed me. Most people use the standard bulky SDer with Roost; however, a more offensive use of Mega Scizor with Swords Dance | Superpower | Bug Bite | Bullet Punch and enough Speed to outpace defensive variants of Rotom-W and Heatran has been on the rise, breaking through several of its common checks with some prior damage (an example of 'prior damage' would be CBB's use of Spikes Greninja + SD Bisharp to break down the aforementioned Scizor's harder-to-break-down checks like Keldeo). Aside from that, its defenses allow it to function well both defensively and special defensively, allowing it to check dangerous threats like Mega Gardevoir and even setup on things like Landorus-T. All in all, Mega Scizor is a force and good against most play styles and is a viable candidate for a rise.
Drops
| A+ → A | I remember making a very long post about how the metagame will adapt to Mega Gyarados back when it began to gain popularity, and I think that is exactly what happened. Some may disagree, but I no longer see Mega Gyarados as an A+ Pokémon and think it's more fitting for A. As a DDer, Mega Gyarados has trouble sweeping as consistently as once did. Ferrothorn, Choice Scarf Landorus-T running Superpower, Slowbro with Grass Knot – all of these Pokémon are very common and essentially put a stop to Gyarados' attempts at a sweep. There's also other things like Choice Scarf Terrakion and Mega Venusaur that give it issues, and while you can claim Mega Gyarados can be supported to remove these guys in order to facilitate a sweep, those Pokémon aren't exactly very easy to remove. Long story short, while Mega Gyarados is still very good, it has fallen from grace in my opinion and doesn't matchup in consistency to the other Pokémon in A+.
| A- → B+ or B | This has identical issues to its Mega and performs worse as a DDer from my point of view. It does have benefits in the form of feigning mega and being able to use a Lum Berry + Bounce to perform better against some of its usual answers, but regardless, it still has plenty of answers and isn't A- material as a DDer. It can reap the benefits of its typing to use more defensively oriented sets, but its weakness to SR really does limit what it can do in comparison to other bulky Water-types. I think regular Gyarados is more suited to either B+ or B depending on where you guys stand, but it honestly doesn't compare in efficiency and consistency to some of the other threats in A- and even in lower rankings.
If we are going to drop Regular Gyarados, B+ would be logistical to be, and being ranked lower than Alomomola, which is ridiculously easy to take advantage of by using a bulky Substitute user, would be ridiculous.
| A+ → A | Someone above me mentioned this, and I agree. As an SRer it faces competition from Garchomp, who is in A and arguably fulfills the role more effectively. As a Scarfer, Landorus-T outshines it. Aside from that, Landorus-T and various other things like Gliscor, Slowbro and even Clefable are quite effective at keeping Terrakion in its place. Offensively, there are plenty of Pokémon that trouble it, such as Azumarill and Scizor with their priority, and faster threats like the Lati twins and Greninja. Terrakion is good, but it's not on the same level in comparison to other Pokémon in A+ and would be more at home in A in this metagame, where Fighting-types have been adapted to quite well.
| A- → B or B- | Let's face it, Skarmory isn't very good anymore, and whether if it was very good at any point is debatable if you ask me. Skarmory's biggest flaw is that its Passive N Bad, which makes it very easy to exploit. As a Defogger, it's extremely easy to pressure to keep it from removing your entry hazards, especially with the rise of Spikes Greninja. In addition to that, the rise of Magnezone has hindered it tons, making it even harder for the bird to fend off what it wants to. Its drop is pretty self explanatory, so I won't babble on more, but I do think it's evident Skarmory's effectiveness in XY isn't very high and will continue to drop as things progress.
Please drop Skarmory. It is so passive and easy to take advantage of.
Other Considerations
These are mainly thoughts I feel like sharing for fun, not nominations per say.
| I know Azumarill is in the conclusion reached list and this isn't a nomination per say, but in the future, I could see a case for it dropping from S to A+. Set-wise, its most effective set is AV. Belly Drum honestly isn't exactly spectacular and has plenty of answers (Rotom-W and Mega Venusaur with enough speed or revenge killing with Talonflame as examples), and can't check the Pokémon it'd like to. CB hits extremely hard but isn't as easily placed on teams as AV since without AV, Azumarill has a harder time checking the Pokémon it'd like to. AV Azumarill is really good; however, it doesn't hit as hard as it would like to in order to better wear and break down some of its defensive answers like Slowbro and is very susceptible to being worn down itself by hits from the threats it's used to keep in place, such as Keldeo and Latios as examples. What makes a Pokémon S rank is largely subjective, but personally, I don't see Azumarill as one that is on par with monsters like Charizard-X and Thundurus-I even if one of its sets is very easy to slap on a team and usually effective.
I agree with Azumarill to A+, I find its horrid speed such a liability on offensive teams, as well as the lack of firepower to pressure Ferrothorn, Slowbro, and Venusaur.
| Favorite competitive 'mon. Just wanted to give Latios a quick shoutout because it's awesome. Love this thing, literally on every team ever. Versatile and does everything you need and well to boot while being extremely threatening despite its Pursuit weakness. MOVE IT TO S!
On the real though, Latios is on some new god flow in this metagame. Aegislash and Mawile leaving has made this stronger than anyone anticipated. If there's any one Pokémon that you can slap on a team and call it a day, it's probably Latios. Why? As a supporter, it's one of the best Pokémon you could ask for. It excels as a Defog user and given its typing and stat distribution, serves a fantastic offensive check to things like Keldeo and Charizard-Y, something arguably no other Pokémon can do offensively on the same level as Latios. To add to its ability to support the team, it can even run Memento to give its teammates a setup opportunity if need be.
Offensively, Latios needs no introduction, as Draco Meteor and Psyshock coming off of this babe is nothing to scoff at. It does have some issues deciding between its coverage moves, but what you decide to use as a third attack can be customized according to your needs and preferences. You can use HP Fire to scare off Ferrothorn and the like; you can use Earthquake, a rather underrated slot on Latios, to unexpectedly remove Heatran and pave the way for your Scizor or Clefable; you can run Thunderbolt to KO Skarmory and prevent it from removing your hazards, and so on. You can even forgo Defog if you don't feel you need it and use Roost with three attacks, providing you reliably recovery.
It has its issues, primarily its Pursuit weakness, but I can definitely see a case for Latios rising at some point in the future. It's arguably the best offensive support Pokémon in the tier while being hard to switch into itself, and it does everything it is meant to do consistently and efficiently. It is seen on nearly every team nowadays and holds #1 in Smogon Tour statistics for a reason and as the metagame keeps developing, eyes should be kept on Latios as a potential raise.
I concur, I find that Defog Latios gets worn down so easily, and I feel myself needing Roost just so it does not die really quickly.
| I saw Jirachee nominated this for S. I won't necessarily comment on whether I think it is an S rank Pokémon, but will instead comment on the recent surge of Spikes usage on Greninja.
Spikes, while limited in terms of what it's good on, are quite nice in XY and on Greninja in my opinion. Greninja is likely the best user of the move and has plenty of chances to set Spikes up on things it threatens out, such as Heatran for example, even if its only one layer. One layer of Spikes in conjunction with SR puts a massive amount of pressure on your opponent, wearing the opposing team downs quite well. Think of what uses Defog in this metagame: mainly Latios and Latias, and others like Mandibuzz, Zapdos and Skarmory, all of which Greninja kills, enabling it to keep its own Spikes in play. Couple Greninja with other Pokémon that can pressure those Defoggers and you'll find yourself able to keep those hazards down more often than you think.
Even if your opponent does manage to remove them at some point, certain Pokemon on their team may already have been wore down enough thanks to that one layer of Spikes and SR, allowing something on your team to clean up once the opportunity arises (if anyone knows CBB's team, Keldeo would be an example of what his team aims to wear down with hazards for an eventual Scizor sweep). Spikes aren't as good on something like Ferrothorn because it is more easily Defogged on, but because Greninja can pressure Defoggers on its own, it makes for a very effective user of the entry hazard.
In terms of Rapid Spin, Starmie loses to Dark Pulse or HP Grass, the two most common coverage moves on Spikes Greninja, so that's not really an issue. Excadrill is trickier to handle because of its Speed under sand. However, think of the common archetype of team Excadrill is commonly seen on. Those teams usually have a lot of trouble with Greninja, so instead of Spiking, you can fire off your coverage moves and pose equally as much of a threat as a layer or two of Spikes would pose on these teams. That's what makes Spikes Greninja so very effective: its ability to defeat the things we consider hazard controllers and pressure the teams they are frequently seen on. It may seem like a gimmick, but it's anything but. While it does have to forgo a coverage move in favor of Spikes, Hydro Pump | Ice Beam | Dark Pulse or HP Grass is still scary, and I'd encourage everyone to give it a go some time.
Thanks for reading my loves!
"Tournament Director, blast off at the speed of light!"
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Agreeing with most of what Bloo and McMeghan said, particularly about Mew, Crawdaunt and Latios (though if Latios rises the next logical step would be putting Latias in S rank too, since each of their pros outweighs their cons perfectly), however I strongly feel that Azumarill should stay S rank and i'm going to try my best to explain why.
Azumarill is basically the definition of a high risk-low reward Pokemon. The reward aspect may not be that high, but there is essentially next to no downside to using it on your team. Most offensive teams run an Azumarill because, in the current metagame, Offense can't really function without some semblace bulk, otherwise it just gets destroyed by Excadrill/Greninja. Azumarill is, the vast majority of the time, the token "bulky thing on offense". Azumarill just provides such a huge amount of defensive and offensive synergy to a team that it's quite hard to justify not using it on most offensive teams, and even some more bulky ones too.
Now, it isn't hard to counter, I will admit that. And yes, some things can take advantage of it quite easily, However, with the possible exception of MVenu, these things are also very easy to take advantage of in return. Ferrohron, Slowbro, Amoonguss... these are all good walls but aren't exactly hugely threatening or hard to switch into. For me, that's the single most important thing about Azumarill : it doesn't leave you open to anything overly dangerous. Most things which switch into it are defensive and therefore can be abused by something else on your team without too much difficulty. While it does have flaws, they are not flaws you really have to take into account it teambulding, because on offense (the kind of team on which you find Azumarill) you should normally end up with something that can abuse Ferrothron, or Slowbro, or Amoonguss, or even all 3(hello my name is MHera). It's not like, say, Mew who leaves you open to XZard and YZard. Don't get me wrong, I love Mew, but if you put it on your team, you absolutely need to support it with something that can switch into both Zards. This is not really a concern Azumarill has.
The single most important thing about Azumarill to me is that it doesn't leave your team more vulnerable to anything offensive, and therefore can be easily be placed on a team with next to no repercussions, or at least, less so that basically any Pokemon in OU. Therefore, almost anything that commonly switches into it cannot create a huge amount of momentum. All in all, Azumarill's ability to beat pretty much anything offensive makes it one of the best if not the best Pokemon when it comes to not so much preserving momentum, but ensuring your opponent doesn't generate too much momentum himself and overpower the rest of team.
Azumarill is not a flawless Pokemon, but honestly, it's probably the closest we have. I rest my case.
Thundurus... I've been thinking of nominating it to drop but I haven't has the guts to do so since it's been S rank pretty much since the metagame's inception. But it's just... much harder to put on teams right now. This is clearly shown by its massive drop in tour usage. Right now, the metagame isn't kind to Thundurus, since we don't need any sweep stoppers, simply because nothing actually sweeps in this metagame, and the one thing which does doesn't even care about Thunder Wave.
And yes, I know it's very threatening and nothing can switch into it in theory. But I don't judge Pokemon by this metric as much as "how often do I find myself using/needing this Pokemon on my team". And I flat-out haven't used Thundurus since the Aegislash ban, nor seen much of it.
However, with the recent influx of Magnesir spam and the increase in popularity of HO in general, Thundurus might end up a very solid S rank soon, but even so, Pranster Thunder Wave is nowhere near as useful as it used to be. I'm still far from convinced it should drop though, but I feel like this isn't totally ridiculous and out of the question at this point.
Azumarill is basically the definition of a high risk-low reward Pokemon. The reward aspect may not be that high, but there is essentially next to no downside to using it on your team. Most offensive teams run an Azumarill because, in the current metagame, Offense can't really function without some semblace bulk, otherwise it just gets destroyed by Excadrill/Greninja. Azumarill is, the vast majority of the time, the token "bulky thing on offense". Azumarill just provides such a huge amount of defensive and offensive synergy to a team that it's quite hard to justify not using it on most offensive teams, and even some more bulky ones too.
Now, it isn't hard to counter, I will admit that. And yes, some things can take advantage of it quite easily, However, with the possible exception of MVenu, these things are also very easy to take advantage of in return. Ferrohron, Slowbro, Amoonguss... these are all good walls but aren't exactly hugely threatening or hard to switch into. For me, that's the single most important thing about Azumarill : it doesn't leave you open to anything overly dangerous. Most things which switch into it are defensive and therefore can be abused by something else on your team without too much difficulty. While it does have flaws, they are not flaws you really have to take into account it teambulding, because on offense (the kind of team on which you find Azumarill) you should normally end up with something that can abuse Ferrothron, or Slowbro, or Amoonguss, or even all 3
The single most important thing about Azumarill to me is that it doesn't leave your team more vulnerable to anything offensive, and therefore can be easily be placed on a team with next to no repercussions, or at least, less so that basically any Pokemon in OU. Therefore, almost anything that commonly switches into it cannot create a huge amount of momentum. All in all, Azumarill's ability to beat pretty much anything offensive makes it one of the best if not the best Pokemon when it comes to not so much preserving momentum, but ensuring your opponent doesn't generate too much momentum himself and overpower the rest of team.
Azumarill is not a flawless Pokemon, but honestly, it's probably the closest we have. I rest my case.
Thundurus... I've been thinking of nominating it to drop but I haven't has the guts to do so since it's been S rank pretty much since the metagame's inception. But it's just... much harder to put on teams right now. This is clearly shown by its massive drop in tour usage. Right now, the metagame isn't kind to Thundurus, since we don't need any sweep stoppers, simply because nothing actually sweeps in this metagame, and the one thing which does doesn't even care about Thunder Wave.
And yes, I know it's very threatening and nothing can switch into it in theory. But I don't judge Pokemon by this metric as much as "how often do I find myself using/needing this Pokemon on my team". And I flat-out haven't used Thundurus since the Aegislash ban, nor seen much of it.
However, with the recent influx of Magnesir spam and the increase in popularity of HO in general, Thundurus might end up a very solid S rank soon, but even so, Pranster Thunder Wave is nowhere near as useful as it used to be. I'm still far from convinced it should drop though, but I feel like this isn't totally ridiculous and out of the question at this point.
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To be honest, AV Azu is almost a must for any team, but I find that it does sap your offensive momentum. It is really slow and not that strong, and I consistently feel it is a liability. Most of the things it checks, such as Latios, Keldeo, and Greninja can break past it with Psyshock / Scald / Grass Knot, meaning that it is not that difficult to beat. A+ would be completely logistical to put Azumarill in my opinion.
EDIT: 500th post :o
If we are considering bumping greninja to S let it be from its versatility and the limitation it puts on teams as a whole. People are acting like the spikes set is the next coming of jesus or something when it really only added to its versatility slightly and not to the point where all or a sudden its the next best thing. I dont really have an opinion on the ranking of said mon but considering the logic that has been presented all I'm reading is that because its such a threat to offense its supposably S rank material now. I can reply later with more stuff but its been all said already, I just dont understand how running spikes all of a sudden justifies a move up.
Pretty much agree with what like Bloo and the others have said so far in terms of rankings.
Pretty much agree with what like Bloo and the others have said so far in terms of rankings.
Disagree with Greninja for S. It's way too one dimensional and has too many flaws compared to the other S ranks. It has paper defenses and provides 0 defensive utility. It can't take any form of priority. Reliance on life orb + neutrality to all hazards and sand, mean it gets worn down super quick. It's fine in A+.
I really like this nomination. 3 Attacks+SD Mega Scizor is a beast. 75 base speed allows it to speed creep a lot of things that are reasonably fast but not too fast (ex. Rotom-W, defensive Heatran). You only need 136 speed EVs to speed creep Rotom-W, after that and max attack you can put the leftover 120 EVs into some bulk category. 70/140/100 bulk and one weakness is fantastic for a set-up sweeper. Mega Scizor has a lot of things it can set-up on in the current meta as well. Overall, it really doesn't completely destroy a playstyle like the Mega Wallbreakers or anything like that. It can put in a lot of work against almost any team between it's sky-high attack, great typing and bulk, easyiness to set-up, strong STAB and priority, and strong coverage options (Knock Off, Superpower). Mega Scizor for A+| A → A+ | This might be slightly controversial, but I think there's a case for Mega Scizor rising to A+. I honestly wasn't a big fan of this thing in the past, but after using it a lot more recently, it has impressed me. Most people use the standard bulky SDer with Roost; however, a more offensive use of Mega Scizor with Swords Dance | Superpower | Bug Bite | Bullet Punch and enough Speed to outpace defensive variants of Rotom-W and Heatran has been on the rise, breaking through several of its common checks with some prior damage (an example of 'prior damage' would be CBB's use of Spikes Greninja + SD Bisharp to break down the aforementioned Scizor's harder-to-break-down checks like Keldeo). Aside from that, its defenses allow it to function well both defensively and special defensively, allowing it to check dangerous threats like Mega Gardevoir and even setup on things like Landorus-T. All in all, Mega Scizor is a force and good against most play styles and is a viable candidate for a rise.
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Actually, spikes ninja is pretty darn good. No spikes stacker ever, apart from maybe spikes ferro (who doesnt really have the moveslot for it), is as good at consistently setting up spikes and also preventing them from going down as greninja. It can easily set up spikes on the majority of teams by the sheer offensive pressure it provides, Chansey becomes a liability, allowing 2, even 3 layers guaranteed. Not even Deo-D was able to do that.
I never said it wasn't good. I was just responding to how it was being overhyped to the point that it was considered some sort of justifiable argument to move it up to S. Chansey is a liability against a lot of stuff these days and the fact that Greninja needs to find a passive as hell mon such as Chansey to pull off spikes consistently is not really going to convince some people for the move up. Deo-D and the Deos in general commanded an archetype and some other aspects so there is a much more different aspect when comparing Deo-D and Greninja.
My main issue is this. We know Greninja messes up offense. This isn't really anything new. Hell, spikes isn't even new, it just so happens CBB (correct me if I'm wrong), starting using this on one of his HO teams and then people just jumped on board the hype train like some are doing now and failing to mention some of the cons that Greninja has. Greninja has issues with stall but considering how the meta has thrown stall to the backburner that isn't such a big deal for Greninja. If anything the nature of balanced teams is what keeps me from saying that Greninja is an S rank threat. Balanced teams, or at least good ones, can maintain enough offensive and defensive pressure to keep Greninja at bay. It's not exactly hard to take out but obviously it's going to be a nightmare for teams that are solely offense oriented that lack the speed and priority to handle Greninja. The S rank threats in pretty much all of the tiers can do a number on almost all playstyles on both the offensive and defensive spectrum as well the more refined archetypes within those two things. Greninja has issues on dealing with much more defensive stuff and as such has an over dependency on team support to let it clean up late game and its Life Orb. If it fails to maintain both it's not necessarily deadweight, but it's not really going to manage to do much from there on out. Posts kind of all over the place cause I'm tired but yeah I really don't think it should be S rank. There's this big misconception that A+ rank is a bad rank and kind of fail to realize that a bunch of A+ mons and S rank mons sort of fall under the same category when the conditions are met so it's w/e to me I think the hype is a bit much.
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